Resuming Contact

[thenextme2020]

Hello all. I've been visiting the forum for years but haven't posted. This site and forum have been enormously supportive. Sharing more about my personal situation below and a few questions I have for you all:

I have toxic parents. I've had them all my life. When I got married 10 years ago, my wife suddenly had toxic in-laws (shocker). After 6 years of toxic behavior from my parents (treating us like children, emotional manipulation, verbal confrontations/outbursts, and more) my wife had enough and demanded No Contact. I resisted and fought it, but ultimately ended up supporting it. My marriage and family was on the line, and I had to pick which way I wanted to go. I picked my wife and kids and am so glad that I did. I have grown in unimaginable ways and am a much healthier and happier person. Fast forward to today and we've now been 3.5 years No Contact with my parents/family of origin. I have done a huge amount of work in individual therapy to re-build myself and my marriage after a lifetime of toxicity. Over the years I have maintained an individual relationship with my parents, and I'm proud to say I now have really strong boundaries and don't tolerate any nonsense. I worked hard to break down my enmeshed relationship with them and now feel like a proper adult with his own life. My wife is amazed by these changes and sees me as a "new man". My wife knows how badly I want our kids to know my family and their grandparents. We agree that a low contact relationship (1-2 brief visits a year in a public place) could be possible assuming my parents can behave themselves. We have worked a lot on our marriage and now feel stronger and more emotionally connected than ever. I deeply connect to her painful experiences with me and my family, and don't ever want to repeat my past mistakes. I know that her even being willing to be around my family is a really big deal and I am really grateful. So, after many, many conversations, multiple apology attempts from my parents, and a track record of respectful non-toxic behavior, we have now agreed to see them. We hope to start a new chapter in the relationship with firm boundaries, and a zero-tolerance policy for mistreatment. We hope to build a track record of incident free visits.

The visit is coming up in 2 weeks, and we're both a bit anxious about it. We'll be meeting them first without our kids for dinner to see how they are. Assuming that dinner goes well we'll introduce them to our kids the next day and hang out in a public place for 2-3 hours. Our past experiences have shown us that when we severely limit time they tend to behave themselves. Things unravel when we spend hours upon hours with them, or stay in the same home (they're getting a hotel). One thing to note is that my kids have no idea that they have grandparents and we've never talked about them. It's been 4 years since my older toddler last met my parents so he has no recollection. This means we'll have to introduce the concept of grandparents to them before we see them. The plan is to do this the morning of the visit with my parents. My wife is understandably super nervous about seeing my parents at all. A few days ago she told me that she wants her sister here for the weekend for emotional support. She also said that she wants her sister to join us when we meet my parents and introduce the kids so she can be a "buffer". My kids adore their aunt. They know her well and always look forward to her visits. I know that when she's here the kids will be obsessed with her and are unlikely to care at all that they are meeting their grandparents for the first time. They will only want to talk and interact with their aunt. If I'm being honest, this really tears me up inside, and I know this will hurt my parents as well because they'll see first-hand what they don't have and have missed out on for many years. My wife and I agree that this sucks for everyone involved but that she really needs support. This is the first time my kids will be interacting with my folks and I really want them to experience that and hopefully make some small connection. I love my sister in-law, but selfishly, I do not want her to be there for this moment. I feel like I've waited so long for this opportunity. That said, I know that my wife needs all the support she needs to make it through an anxiety ridden weekend. So, I've been supportive of her sister being there, but in my heart continue to have mixed feelings. Given everything that has happened in our past, I know I should be doing whatever it takes to make my wife comfortable and make this visit happen. At the moment, my parents don't know that my sister in-law will also be there for the weekend and joining us. I need to tell them, but I don't want to overly manage their feelings - whether they be jealousy, anger or disappointment. I just want to deliver the news matter of fact and then let them deal with their own feelings. Unfortunately, I know this is going to possibly change the whole vibe of the weekend for the worse. If I had normal parents they wouldn't be jealous or upset to share their time. They might even be excited about it being more of a family thing, or understanding that my sister in-law being there would make my wife happy. Unfortunately I don't have normal parents. They're going to be hurt when the kids don't really pay any attention to them. I suppose it is possible that after many years of No Contact and experiencing real consequences, they'll take the news well and be more chill about it, but it's also possible that they won't. Any advice on how navigate this all and how to best communicate this to my parents? I keep telling myself that this is such a huge step in the right direction - towards reestablishing a relationship and that I'm only responsible for my shit, and not theirs. When I tell myself I'm not responsible for curating the visit to perfection or for managing everyone else's feelings I experience a sense of calm. It is short-lived though, and the weight of the moment, and the responsibility I feel for ensuring this visit goes well returns along with feelings of anxiety and uncertainty. In my individual work I have learned that I take responsibility for things well beyond my control and that causes me a lot of pain. I end up neglecting my own needs (or perhaps my wife's needs). How do others with PD parents avoid overly managing their parents? How do you know where the line is between unhealthy coping strategies and smart interventions/planning?

[notrightinthehead]

Welcome! You certainly have an interesting time coming. Would you be able to change your point of view from 'I have to make sure all goes well and that my kids like my parents'  to 'I am giving my parents a chance to show that they want to have contact with us. Let us see if they take it.'
Because, if your parents are very difficult and behave in an odd way, you kids will not be very keen to have contact with them. I found that my kids just did not enjoy spending time with their NPD grandmother  and just adored the other. Even when quite young they found her odd and commented on her behaviour. Kids are quite sensitive to injustice and self centredness I found.
You might want to think about exposing your kids to toxic behaviour and then telling them to put up with it or normalizing it. It really is up to your parents to show you that they are safe now. Because from what you wrote, they used not to be. And no matter how much thought and effort you put into meetings, unsafe people will find a way to show who they truly are.
Good luck to you and let us know how you managed!

[Seeking peace]

 

[Tribe16]

Hi TheNextMe2020,

You wrote, They're going to be hurt when the kids don't really pay any attention to them. I suppose it is possible that after many years of No Contact and experiencing real consequences, they'll take the news well and be more chill about it, but it's also possible that they won't. Any advice on how navigate this all and how to best communicate this to my parents?

What if you lowered expectations about the outcome? My guess is that you know that we can only control our own attitudes, not those of other people. If parents react negatively, you have your answer. You tried the experiment, you'll better know how to proceed in the future. If parents behave because they want to have their grandchildren in their lives, you have your answer. And wife will have made it through something that is difficult for her, maybe having Sis there helped the situation, maybe Sis won't need to be there the next time who knows.

This visit is really an experiment isn't it? Maybe going into it with that mindset of "how will my parents behave meeting their grandchildren for the first time?" Instead of "How will my parents react to my sister-in-law" would change your perspective and worry as well.

Trying to understand PD parents is a tough business and the task ahead is rough and I feel for you. Please let us know how it goes!

[looloo]

Here are my two cents...

I'm thinking that adding an in-person "buffer" of your sister in law could undermine your and your wife's ability to see your parents as clearly as possible.  It might feel like support to your wife, but actually may end up being too distracting and playing into those difficult-to-stop habits of wrangling everyone's emotions.

It might be sufficient, and better in the long run, to do what folks do on a first date: your wife can arrange with her sister to be available over text if things get tense, and your wife can signal to her when/if she needs her to actually call.  Then your wife can make a polite excuse ("sorry, my sister's calling, I have to take this"), and take a breather for a few minutes, and re-center herself.

It might also be more valuable for you and your wife to debrief with your SIL afterwards, when you'll have some perspective, instead of being in the eye of the storm, so to speak.

Good luck!

[mary_poppins]

I'm gonna be the odd one who's gonna give you some tough love since I have been in your shoes. I resumed contact with my NPD parents (F has N traits, M is full-blown NPD) after 4 years of NC. Like you, I worked on myself a lot during that time. But no amount of self-work helped the feelings of guilt I had and the question: What if they die tomorrow and I wouldn't get a chance to say goodbye? The self-work I did was not enough, so I resumed contact. Maybe because I wanted the guilt feelings to stop and for me to feel OK again, having a family, albeit a toxic one.

Now, it's 1 year and 7 months of daily contact with these people and I've grown bitter, suicidal and depressed. I'm now building my courage to cut them out again and this time for good.

Here's how I ended up to the conclusion that even a small amount of contact with my PD family is dangerous: I asked myself why did I want to be in contact (limited contact) with people who break down my spirit and use me to feel better about themselves? Because I'd feel lonely if I cut them out for good, because I'd feel like an orphan, because I'd need to explain to people why I am not in touch with my parents, because having a bad family was all I knew and I didn't think there was something better for me out there-better people who'd grow to love me unconditionally and made me their family, because I would be the black sheep of the family who cut her parents out and I wouldn't be able to stand being talked badly by family and relatives, because I'd say no to abuse and to take care of my mother's emotional needs and that is a 'sin'.

All these reasons are unhealthy. Healthy and secure people ONLY enter relationships if: they want to, they like the people they partner with, they ENJOY the partnership. Guilt, shame, obligation, fear, embarrassment, duty are foreign feelings to them.

You can ask yourself why do you want to resume contact and keep a limited contact with your parents. What do you get from that? Would that contact help you grow in time? Would it give you the love and nourishment you need? Or are you doing it for reasons that relate to fear, obligation and guilt? or is it because you think they may have changed during NC and they may end up showing healthy behaviour to you and your children?

When I resumed contact I thought my parents changed due to me being NC. They may have realised they can lose me again if they don't behave. Well, I was wrong. Those thoughts came from the trauma bond feelings I was forced to feel. My parents haven't changed-the've actually became more narcissistic, they now use people without trying to hide it, they will show their disapproval if you don't agree with them and push you to the floor and stomp on you so they can feel empowered. There's nothing that can change who they are and I am at peace with them never changing.

I am no longer tormented by the thought of going NC and later hearing about one of them dying and me not being able to go to the funeral and say goodbye. I actually won't go to their funeral and I won't care if they die. Why? We never had a relationship and sincerely, death won't change that.

Be really really careful with resuming contact. See other people's stories who've resumed contact with their toxic parents and how it ended up. it doesn't end up nicely. Boundaries won't matter-when you get just a little contact with them, they'll say something or break a bit of your boundary and you'll feel back in that child-N parent dynamic. If yours are NPD, they'll disregard your boundaries or make fun of them.

[mary_poppins]

"How do others with PD parents avoid overly managing their parents? How do you know where the line is between unhealthy coping strategies and smart interventions/planning?"

I don't manage them, I do not give a heck about their feelings. I don't have to build coping strategies for dealing with them because I do not care about them-if they live or die i don't care. They have never been a mother and a father to me, they have used and abused me for 38 years! I have no interest of 'managing' them. When I'm in touch with them I used grey rock. They know nothing about my love life, friends, work, career.

[mary_poppins]

"How do others with PD parents avoid overly managing their parents? How do you know where the line is between unhealthy coping strategies and smart interventions/planning?"

I don't manage them, I do not give a heck about their feelings. I don't have to build coping strategies for dealing with them because I do not care about them-if they live or die i don't care. They have never been a mother and a father to me, they have used and abused me for 38 years! I have no interest of 'managing' them. When I'm in touch with them I use grey rock and 'story making' to get them off my back (meaning I invent stories of what i do or where I work). They know nothing about my love life, friends, work, career.

[daughter]

It's your parents that need to prove themselves, not you prepping them for visit.  I'm worried about your expressed concerns about their potential "disappointment", whether that SIL is there (not for them to complain, regardless of circumstances), or whether little children "don't pay enough attention to them" (big red flag re managing your own expectations too). 

Your parents are lucky to be offered this 2nd chance. That is primary point here.  Their good behavior gets rewarded by this visit lasting longer than half-hour. Their bad behavior gets visit curtailed, period. Your DW's discomfort should be your guide post.

Don't discount impact of dysfunctional "toxic" grandparents will have on your own children's perspective on family dynamics in general, and in relation to you as their parents.  Per my posts, given my own experiences as both SG "dutiful daughter" and parent of impressionable kids, I wish I terminated contact before our wedding, when my own toxic parents acted-out so horribly that I literally got sick.  Roller-coaster experience, dealing with them as grandparents, more bad behavior, more grossly inappropriate demands and expectations, more overtly disrespectful and disdainful statements. Yes, my kids were emotionally-harmed, by seeing this stuff happen as matter-of-fact family relations.  Yes, I endured more emotional hurt myself, and it affected both DH and kids, which eventually caused our NC split a decade ago, with the net damage done nonetheless to all of us.  "Having grandparents experience" was over-hyped value, naive of us to think workable, and absolute failure for us as parents.

[MIB]

I certainly don't have all the answers, but here's my perspective. I went vvvvLC with my uBP/NP parents for a few years after going thru therapy (my own and with them) and them behaving well for about 2 years after which all hell broke loose and it became unsalvageable. So the low contact was the occasional text, grandchild's photo email or greeting card, almost always sent by me.

And life was peaceful. My conscience was also very clear, because geez did I try.

Then uNPD dad died earlier this year very unexpectedly. And While my conscience remains/ed  110% clear, because I'm an only child and my mother is basically useless, I had to reconnect with her. Now that the initial chaos is over (which was dreadful) we text light messages daily (have a nice day/have a good sleep kind of stuff) and video call over on the weekend. I do this mostly because I feel an obligation (yes I know that's not a great reason), but it helps me to feel like a decent person because she basically has no one else.

So I do it for me, in that way, but boy do I miss vvvvvvLC. Those were the days. I say this because I get, and will always get, very little out of this relationship except work. I can and am utilizing strategies to minimize that, but still.... It's not pleasurable.

So that's my story. I tell it to you to encourage you to contemplate why you want to do this, what you think you'll get from it, and at what cost. Peace is a beautiful thing.

[sandpiper]

There was a really great post here ages ago that we used to repost all the time about therapy. The basic premise of it was just because you've done heaps of work on yourself, don't expect that to make a single jot of difference in your relationship with PDFOO.
Unless they have been to therapy and have done the work on themselves, you are stepping back into the same toxic situation and to come back to the post - it was 'Just because you're drinking from a golden chalice now instead of a broken bit of dirty pottery, it won't save you from being poisoned if you're drinking from a toxic well.'
I think you should keep working on your relationship with your parents and spare your spouse and your children from dealing with them until you have seen with your own eyes what they are like.
Dinner in a restaurant is one of those situations that provides your parents with a wonderful strategy to engineer a 'woe is me my family are abusive' scenario.
You'd be better off meeting at a theme park or some other venue where your partner and your children can walk away and find something else they'd rather do if the meeting with your parents proves to be uncomfortable.
I think the other thing you have to prepare yourself for is that your parents have very likely gotten worse over the years that you've been NC, rather than better. That tends to be the progression of the illness, unless there's an intervention with therapy and a deep commitment to change.
I'm stunned at how much worse various family members have become over the course of three decades and I really can't believe that's down to the fact that I see them with much greater clarity thanks to therapy and the insights I've gained from these boards.

[sandpiper]

Sorry, I realised I didn't address your concern about how your parents might feel about your SIL being present at the meeting.
So I would ask you to reflect, why does your wife feel like she needs support for that meeting?
If she feels like she needs an ally or a witness then I wonder if that's because she's not confident that you will see the behaviour that is directed at her and she's not confident that you will stand up for her and tell your parents to knock it off.
I think perhaps it is unfair on your SIL to draw her into this and it might be better to go to therapy with your parents.
If and when they can acknowledge to a T what their behaviour was, how it was hurtful and learn how to deal with the consequences of that, then it might be time to bring your wife to that conversation.
My in-laws are perfectly capable of behaving themselves with my DH because they want something from him.
They also wanted him entirely to themselves so it has not bothered them one bit since I stepped out of that relationship.
It's extraordinary how PD parents can modify their behaviour when it suits them and they will dial up the nastiness the moment that it suits them.
My 2 cents worth - test them out on a therapist first, before you risk undoing all the hard work you've done on repairing your marriage.

[thenextme2020]

Would you be able to change your point of view from 'I have to make sure all goes well and that my kids like my parents'  to 'I am giving my parents a chance to show that they want to have contact with us. Let us see if they take it.'

This is really great advice. I find that shifting my perspective in this way reduces the burden and FOG I feel. This isn't about me managing them or the event. This isn't about me hopefully "doing everything right" so my mother doesn't say something careless or rage. This is about me being calm and confident in who I am, and seeing them objectively for who they are now. One of my biggest battles is not getting sucked back into their dynamic. I need to find a way to stay my most rational self, and not get overly emotional.

[thenextme2020]

What if you lowered expectations about the outcome? This visit is really an experiment isn't it? Maybe going into it with that mindset of "how will my parents behave meeting their grandchildren for the first time?" Instead of "How will my parents react to my sister-in-law" would change your perspective and worry as well.

Thanks for your response. It truly is an experiment. A relatively high-stakes experiment. But I often ask myself why do I feel like it is so high stakes? For me it's all the hope I have for it to go well. If it goes well I'll hopefully be able to see them more, and my kids will get to know them. If it goes well I'll feel more comfortable contacting them a bit more. If it goes well I might be able to have a bit more of the "normal" other folks enjoy. Not anything close to healthy families, but something. If things imploded on this visit we likely wouldn't try again for another year.

If you ask my wife, she sees the stakes a bit differently. She's terrified that she and I will become divided and that I'll fail to hold boundaries. She's terrified that she's going to have to speak up to my parents if that happens and she's not confident she'll be able to keep her cool. She's terrified this visit will deliver a blow to our marriage - perhaps a lethal one - that we won't come back from.

When I lower my expectations my anxiety drops. I just want to be sure that I don't lower my expectations so much that I forget about what is acceptable behavior, and when to calmly and assertively intervene and redirect when things go south.

[thenextme2020]

Here are my two cents...

I'm thinking that adding an in-person "buffer" of your sister in law could undermine your and your wife's ability to see your parents as clearly as possible.  It might feel like support to your wife, but actually may end up being too distracting and playing into those difficult-to-stop habits of wrangling everyone's emotions.

It might be sufficient, and better in the long run, to do what folks do on a first date: your wife can arrange with her sister to be available over text if things get tense, and your wife can signal to her when/if she needs her to actually call.  Then your wife can make a polite excuse ("sorry, my sister's calling, I have to take this"), and take a breather for a few minutes, and re-center herself.

It might also be more valuable for you and your wife to debrief with your SIL afterwards, when you'll have some perspective, instead of being in the eye of the storm, so to speak.

Good luck!

I tried sharing these ideas with my wife but ultimately she insisted that she needs her sister there. Given the high-stakes nature of the visit and all the anxiety she has I am choosing to support her and have invited her sister. I need to fully support this decision and own it. I know that with my parents if they sniff any sense of doubt or division between my wife and I they attack and dig into it. We must be a unified front at all costs.

[thenextme2020]

Be really really careful with resuming contact. See other people's stories who've resumed contact with their toxic parents and how it ended up. it doesn't end up nicely. Boundaries won't matter-when you get just a little contact with them, they'll say something or break a bit of your boundary and you'll feel back in that child-N parent dynamic. If yours are NPD, they'll disregard your boundaries or make fun of them.

Thank you for sharing your story. I do need a dose of tough love and a reality check. At times I'm so full of hope that it renders me naive and blind to dangers right in front of me. I know that my parents will test my boundary. They will somehow bring the attention back to themselves. They will mope and be unhappy about something and that changes the mood of the whole visit. It doesn't matter how much prep I do or how much they assure me that they get it and that things will be different. Something will inevitably happen. Something already has: They're arriving to town 3 days early because "the flight times were more convenient" knowing full well that I can't and won't see them until the date I already gave them. Now, I don't control them. It's a free country and perhaps they feel they had some legitimate reason to be here, but I know deep down that they want more time with me and my family than I am able to offer, and just by being here they are making a statement: "we're here, we want to see you". They're old, they don't know how to entertain themselves, and they want that burden to fall on me. I called them yesterday and reminded them that it doesn't matter that they're coming to town early, I already provided them with my availability, and the specific days and times that we will meet and that isn't changing. I also called them out on this pattern, and how they always do it. They denied that they had any other intentions. Just this event of boundary stomping brought back a bit of the child-N parent dynamic that I dread. I felt the boundary stomp, it upset me so I called it out, but I ended up wrapping up 2-3 hours of my time having feelings about it and talking to them about this shit. I haven't even mentioned how my wife felt: she was pissed and sad about it for me and literally said, "well, it looks like they haven't changed at all, and we're in for a disaster". Now, I don't necessarily feel like that is inevitable, but I empathize with her feelings. This is a literal pattern that has happened for years. The difference is I see it for what it is, I am not going to spend any additional amount of time with them, and I intend to hold firm to my boundaries. That said when they are tested over and over and over, in small in erosive ways it really fucks with me. It's almost as if they don't want to hear boundaries. That they don't care, and their needs are always more important so even if it is inappropriate to keep asking additional things of me they will keep doing it. When this happened yesterday I went to the Toolbox. I thought about how I'm only in control of my shit, and the only thing I need to do is hold the boundaries and enforce them if need be. The rest of it is out of my hands. If they come picking a fight, or can't handle my response or response from my wife we'll know what we need to know.

[thenextme2020]

"How do others with PD parents avoid overly managing their parents? How do you know where the line is between unhealthy coping strategies and smart interventions/planning?"

I don't manage them, I do not give a heck about their feelings. I don't have to build coping strategies for dealing with them because I do not care about them-if they live or die i don't care. They have never been a mother and a father to me, they have used and abused me for 38 years! I have no interest of 'managing' them. When I'm in touch with them I used grey rock. They know nothing about my love life, friends, work, career.

I have been utilizing most of these techniques. Grey rock is effective and I have them on a severe information diet. Thanks for your response. Adopting a perspective of not caring about what they think or their feelings does feel empowering in some way. Since I'm choosing to interact with them, my tool of choice will need to be calm, assertive responses. I find that with my BPD mom responds well to a bit of calm empathy if she isn't too escalated. Its the same technique I use with my 3 year old.

[thenextme2020]

It's your parents that need to prove themselves, not you prepping them for visit. I'm worried about your expressed concerns about their potential "disappointment", whether that SIL is there (not for them to complain, regardless of circumstances), or whether little children "don't pay enough attention to them" (big red flag re managing your own expectations too). 

Your parents are lucky to be offered this 2nd chance. That is primary point here.  Their good behavior gets rewarded by this visit lasting longer than half-hour. Their bad behavior gets visit curtailed, period. Your DW's discomfort should be your guide post.

Thank you for your response. I've been able to not overly prep for this visit. I set the terms, communicated the expectations, and have left the rest to my parents. I still struggle with fully internalizing that this is their opportunity to prove themselves. I completely agree that this is what it is,  but when I think about it like that, I'm concerned that I will come across hard or aggressive. When I think about how they are lucky to even have this chance it makes me ANGRY because I know they don't fully think that. On some level I know they still feel entitled to a relationship with me my wife and kids. That I have somehow "denied" them of this, when in actuality it is their actions that have led to the estrangement. My father gets this on some level, and perhaps my mother does as well by virtue of 3.5 years passing by, but I know that deep down she's still upset that she's been out of my life for so long. I think she's also sad about it. And to be fair, she has shown a lot of change over the last few years. She doesn't rage at me and has been super focused on being cordial and kind. I realize now that I can adopt the POV that this is their opportunity to prove themselves, and still be calm and cordial. I can be an observer. I can keep an eye on my half of the situation.

I love the point about my DW feelings being the guide post. She's been right about 99% of things. Had I listened to her earlier we wouldn't be in this situation and could have salvaged more of the relationship earlier. I was stubborn and wrong for not listening to her. She has a good sense for these things, and while we don't always see eye to eye on how to manage it all, we end up moving forward as a team no matter what. This didn't use to be the case and I am so grateful for her love. She has been such a healing force in my life. I owe it to her to accept her influence and should trust her with all I have as we go into this.

[thenextme2020]

So that's my story. I tell it to you to encourage you to contemplate why you want to do this, what you think you'll get from it, and at what cost. Peace is a beautiful thing.

I know that by resuming contact I'm opening up some potentially unpleasant things. The peace is a beautiful thing. The last 4 years have been really nice. That said I still will have major regrets if I don't at least try again. We won't gain the nourishment that most normal people get from healthy parents, but I know my life will feel far more complete with my family of origin somewhat a part of it. Thank you for sharing you story.

[Cat of the Canals]

Bravo on holding to those boundaries, thenextme2020. (My PDmil pulled the exact same maneuver when she visited a few months ago. We told her four days, she booked six.) You've already passed the first test with flying colors, in my opinion. I think you've got this.