My ucovertBPDw has been having a bit of an "up" mood for the past few weeks. I can tell there's still an egg in the shell, but overall she's been relatively happy. I'm being careful not to trigger anything, and using MC as much as possible. Her focus is on an upcoming party, and not on her daily responsibilities now, and her enabling mom has just left after having been around for over 2 months (essentially full-time caring for our 2 year old daughter). my wife has been busy arranging, re-arranging, and re-arranging, and re-re-arranging our house for TWO months. Something changes literally every day.
I'm starting to feel some fog again I think. When she's in an up mood, I start thinking I'm the crazy one, I get confused, forget the insanity form her down moods, and just start to question reality. It's easy to see things when she's ion a down mood, but I lose sight of it in her up moods. I guess it's this pattern that's an unconscious gaslighting of sorts. It makes me feel nuts!
I was just hoping to hear other perspectives on how you feel when your SO is in an up mood, and how long those moods can last. Sometimes my wife's up mood is a day, a couple days, sometimes a week or two, and I've even seen a couple months even. Now, even in the up moods I'm still walking on eggshells because I know she can be triggered. At least now I understand that the triggers are anything that can cause her to feel inner shame(real or imagined). MC is a huge help, as well as no JADE.
I love you guys!
I had a friend tell me one time "don't get too happy in the good times or too down in the bad times. One thing for sure they will always change." So I guess I kinda apply this idea to a lot of my life, including SO's moods. I kinda just take it as it comes.
coyote,
Thanks! I used to fall for the "the up moods are the 'real' her" thing. Once I became aware that there may be a PD and learned a bit, now I'm a bit withdrawn when things are "up". I don't trust them because I've learned the mood will shift back down at some point. I wonder if it ever balances out. I guess I let her mood swings effect me too much. "If mama ain't happy, ain't no one happy" kind of thing.
Do you experience those ups and downs a lot still? I think I remember reading something you wrote about your wife working on herself and how that has made all the difference in your relationship? If you do see the ups/down, have you seen any pattern for how long they last or is it "random"?
Rubix I used to look for patterns; hormone cycles, moon phases, high tides, etc. Once I figured out there was no pattern and set boundaries against abuse regardless of her moods, things got better. I really can't say she has worked all that much on herself although maybe she has. I do know her moods have stabilized but I tend to think it was more due to me consistently enforcing my boundaries than anything else. This along with other tools ie., no JADE and no Circular Conversations has helped. Seems as I changed my responses her behavior has changed. I hope this helps.
Actually, it does. It makes a lot of sense to me and confirms what I started noticing from not JADEing or getting into circular conversations. Excellent.
My H is in an up mood right now. It honestly makes the house feel lighter. Energy is calm. He's cracking jokes and being the person he is to people outside the home. It's nice and also confusing as I'm still emotionally intertwined with this version of him, which is the reason I haven't been able to just leave. I'm still in the fog, I guess. I hope over time it will become clearer.
When I was married I initially used to fall for the up moods.
They were more frequent in the beginning and lasted longer.
I felt relieved during those times. I used to think that he'd managed to sort out whatever had been troubling him and he was "back".
But looking back, his ups were bordering on manic. He'd want to do things at impossible times, in impossible time frames and with money we didn't have.
Even having ds didn't change his attitude when he was on an up. He just didn't seem to get that babies' schedules take precedence.
I was the voice of reason and I used to hate letting him down by saying "no" or not joining in. The times when I did join in weren't enjoyable to me as they were crazy, disordered and usually doing something I wasn't interested in.
Gradually the ups became less frequent and shorter.
Often he'd ring while on his way home from work and be very happy. By the time he got home 45 minutes later he'd be sullen and silent treatmenting again. I used to think, "What's happened NOW?" And of course he'd never tell me. It was very frustrating.
Since he left over 6 years ago he's just permanently down , with me, anyway. Never smiles. Is constantly angry and overreacting to nothings.
It must be a horrible way to live. I often feel very sorry for him.
I don't have any social interraction with him at all. Everything is done by email. It's better that way, although the written abuse is bad.
I don't miss the ups or the downs.
And lately I've begun to suspect his uNPD wife writes the emails that are calm (signing off as him) and he writes the more volotile ones.
Interesting. And extremely frustrating. She should not be writing/organising anything or having anything to do with me.
He is capable of being the responsible father but the fact that he doesn't want to and that she pushes herself into places she doesn't belong because she needs the attention, means that he gets away with not being a connected father.
Sorry, I distracted myself.
AOD
For me, it feels really wierd in that the "up" mood means uPDh is very religious. Praying, reading the Bible, going to church(es), etc. By all appearances, he looks like the real deal to outsiders. It makes me wonder if I'm out of line. But I know that underlying the "up" is me towing the line.
Mary
My NPD exhusband would have up moods that could border on mania. Lots of great plans, things that HAD to be done around the house or with the kids, etc. It got so extreme that for a while he had a bipolar diagnosis and was on meds for it. (Or pretended to take the meds, always hard to know with him, since the final diagnosis was sociopathy.)
At first, I'd buy it, try to believe the hard times were over and my husband "was back" or was finally better. Then, I realized that these upswings happened after he'd gotten a good dose of NPD feed — recognition of work peers, new client, etc. As he got older, he needed more and more NPD feed, but he'd alienated so many people by his behavior that he got less. Life got real fun around our house when he came down, oh boy.
My advice: Don't trust the up. Your wife just got 2 months of NPD feed from her mom. It's diagnostic that she's busy changing around things in the house, which might be a stand in for trying to change herself internally so she can accept herself, which NPDs pretty much can never do.. Once she finishes that, my bet is that things will go south.
Hang on to yourself and keep the boundaries.
While he's certainly more pleasant to be around when he's feeling up, sometimes I find his up moods a little annoying. I think it's because they feel a little fake. He's also more clingy when he's feeling happy, and follows me around the house.
You are not responsible for anyone else's behaviour or thoughts. How they cope with your reactions and behaviour and cope with their own behaviour is up to them.
That has been a huge life lesson for me. It's so freeing to finally understand and to learn to accept it.
My uBPD/uNPD sister is so loveable, kind and caring when she's happy and in a good mood. However she can be so vile, abusive and demanding when she's upset. I used to think that it was me who triggered her bad moods but it's not. Her inability to self soothe quickly after being triggered was not down to me.
Observe don't absorb, be a lighthouse not a lifeboat and staying calm helps me to cope. Also the Medium Chill and Grey Rock techniques as well.
I still feel tremendous guilt but I talk to myself and say that I am not responsible for what comes out of my sister's mouth, her behaviour and thoughts. I of course don't say that to her as she would only twist it all around if I did so that she became the victim and blame me for upsetting her. She can't cope with her own thoughts or behaviour so has to have someone to blame. She has no insight into why she's so lonely. It's because she alienates everyone by her own behaviour towards them.
We can start to mirror someone else's behaviour for a quiet life. That way madness lies. It's OK to be happy and enjoy life when someone else is sad or upset.
Kris Godinez the author and counsellor who specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome calls the ups and good behaviour intermittent periods of positive rewards. She explains that the good hormones released in your body during the love bombing and good times make you feel fantastic and can be as addictive to you as crack cocaine. Then you become hooked needing more and more. You forget, forgive and make excuses for the bad times always wanting the good times to return. Your abuser becomes the drug pusher who supplies the good hormones. They can give or take them away at any time. They are in control. Abusers are all about power and control.
I know it sounds extreme but it really resonates with me and explains a lot of my thinking and behaviour over many decades.
Targets of abuse will do anything to get the good hormones. That is why many people return to their abusers even after extreme physical, emotional and psychological abuse. It now makes sense to me.
I hope this is of help to you.
Best wishes
guitarman X
Oh yes! The "up" moods are the trigger for that dopamine fix. It is the hook that keeps us going.
A really good torturer knows that constant pain will not work. The pain has to be varied in duration and intensity. That is how to break someone. PDs have an innate sense of this. Boundaries help. For me, I just roll with it. I know that every peak will have a valley. The valley's depth is as high as the peak's height. I don't get very excited about it. When she is in that down mood, I used to think, "what can I do to fix it?" The answer is nothing. It is not up to me to make her happy.
Quote from: openskyblue on March 23, 2019, 08:35:28 AM
At first, I'd buy it, try to believe the hard times were over and my husband "was back" or was finally better. Then, I realized that these upswings happened after he'd gotten a good dose of NPD feed — recognition of work peers, new client, etc.
Oh man. This nails it. It's almost surreal to watch it happen. Narcissistic supply is provided somehow and her mood lifts to an almost giddy, manic state. ay not last long, but it feeds her for a little after some recognition or praise from people we know.
I've actually been off the forum for a few months. The up mood lasted a while, I got complacent, slipped into caretaking again to keep the peace, then a whole lot of things came crashing down. I've made some progress being assertive and trying not to feel guilty when narcs try to manipulate me. I'm discovering that one of the things that makes enforcing boundaries difficult for me is when I may be having what I think is a CPTSD flashback triggered by my wife's narc manipulation or rage.
Recently I saw intense hatred and rage in her eyes. I noticed I kind of turned off, and days later I still feel a sense of nervousness and fog maybe. It's like cortosol is rushing through my system still. I feel avoidant and don't want to go near her, just wishing she'd leave.
I did set a big boundary with her recently though. When she was raging the other day, calmly I told her that if she doesn't take initiative and go to therapy to work on our relationship, I'm going to have to ask her leave. Is this a good boundary, or does it cross into the I'm trying to control YOU, instead of protect ME spectrum? In my implicit, personal translation it translates to something like "I need us to be working on ourselves in order for this to work. If we're not working on ourselves we need to call it quits". I'd love to hear some thoughts! I'm not very good at boundary setting.
rubixcube: I think it's ok to say the PD needs therapy as a condition for you to stay in the relationship. This sounds like a good boundary to me. You're not willing to continue with things as they are now, and that's ok!
For me it's part of the intermittent reinforcement. I spent most of yesterday worried how a project went with ds and uPDh. Came home, thankfully all was well. What a relief. But it's that not knowing, always being on edge, knowing that o one little could set him of and ruin a whole day etc...
Quote from: vonmoot on May 07, 2019, 12:46:17 PM
Oh yes! The "up" moods are the trigger for that dopamine fix. It is the hook that keeps us going.
A really good torturer knows that constant pain will not work. The pain has to be varied in duration and intensity. That is how to break someone. PDs have an innate sense of this. Boundaries help. For me, I just roll with it. I know that every peak will have a valley. The valley's depth is as high as the peak's height. I don't get very excited about it. When she is in that down mood, I used to think, "what can I do to fix it?" The answer is nothing. It is not up to me to make her happy.
Wow, very insightful.
And as someone else pointed out, when the ups are manic! Yikes! Sometimes he does the work of three men in one day. But, he also expects everyone else to be the same way.
Helpful thread, thank you every one.
I now realise that the "up" moods my uPD husband has are mania rather than a non-pd balanced happiness, as other people shared above. I used to see them as if all was ok with my husband. I now feel is part of his illness. Both the up and down phrase.
I used to like to think the up part was the real him but I am mistaken. It is all him.
It has levelled off a lot but I very much feel this is purely because of me setting boundaries, medium chilling, not buying into his attention seeking. I think he will basically do as much as I let him get away with, much like a young child would.
I found this yesterday and it's very relevant. In particular, it's speaking about how to begin to heal when you're abused by a covert narcissist. I would argue that a quiet borderline fits here as well. I guess any abuse from someone on the narcissist spectrum could apply...
Quote
"The main premise behind the exercise is that we must stop isolating the good times and our positive view of the narcissist from the abuse that occurred. "
https://fairytaleshadows.com/how-to-heal-from-narcissistic-abuse/
This is very in line with what coyote said. The up moods aren't the "real" person. They are both. Somehow in codependent/rescuer hope that they'll change it's easy to split the person into good/bad, up/down moods, happy/angry. That's quite a rollercoaster! I really need to work on this.
My "real" wife is a a mentally ill person who has good moods and bad moods, experiences CPTSD like flashbacks, like myself, and at the core of her personality is deeply damaged, regardless of her current mood.
Yes, its easy to relax into and therefore let your toolbox guard down during the good times. Having been married for 28+, mu uPDw does, imho start to reveal some pattern. I laughed out loud at Coyotes reply of looking for "hormone cycles, moon phases and high tides.." I do feel that with my uPDw, the PD bad times are definitely heightened when there is a stressful time/event going on where my wife is involved and she is in the crosshairs of other peoples opinions/judgement. I also find that May-September is a long period where there is plenty of bad times. I sometimes wonder if SAD (seasonal affective disorder) is at play. My uNPDf is highly volatile/energy filled in the May-Sept period and suffers depression/lethargy in the winter and has been diagnosed with SAD. Im not sure if SAD can be a pattern in PD's, but my decades of journaling would surely show that pattern as well in my wife. In the winter blues my wife tries to blame all her troubles on me and states "things just need to change". In the summer, shes so hyped up that im just in the way and holding her down, therefore again "things just need to change".
Rubix, you mentioned prepping for a party....my wife likes to have parties but not because shes a social butterfly, but because she likes being the perceived center of attention. Prepping for one has been exhausting and only the my inner circle knows how PD stressful the whole prep is. My wife ALWAYS goes way overboard on food supply and decor and with her terrible time management, its a total madhouse in the hours just before party-start. Then, when the clock strikes party-time, she disappears to her room, gets herself all decked out stunning and leaves me (the person who hates parties and most social events) to welcome everyone in and put on my social face to those i dont see except at parties. 15 minutes in, my wife strolls downstairs into the welcome of the already-mingling guests and receives a fanfare of praise from the party admirers.
When the party is over, my wife takes off her party face, states just HOW MUCH cleanup there is (because she did it up like a wedding reception) and then starts to take inventory of herself and just how good she did, how much she worked and how everybody loved it. But at the same time, starts crap-talking about who rsvp'd but no-showed, who didnt rsvp at all (and will never be invited again) and who showed up without rsvp'ing. When were done cleaning up at 2-3am, she will claim that it is way too much work and shes not doing it again. Next year is a repeat.
When i came Out of the FOG, i told her that she has full rights to have and enjoy a party, but that the opposite is also true for me, and told her i would be present for the party, but setup and cleanup, she would need to get help elsewhere. She presented her earful and then the next time, i bowed out and she recruited my adult son and his wife, which worked out well and the ST I received over my non-participation was way better than the circus of the many years prior.
As everyone stated, stay focused on the toolbox and be ready at all times. I know its exhausting but if were going to stay in the marriage (50% rule), its a requirement for our own protection and for minimizing the PD bad times as much as possible. You are surely not alone in your experiences.
SoT.
Parties...
SoT, you nailed it.
I have almost the same experience here. My uB/NPDw(quiet Borderline or vulnerable narc. Not sure) goes all out to make things pretty and elegant(just for show of course), doesn't plan her time well at all, then stresses out just before the event. When she's stressing she starts attacking me as if I caused her stress. Then when I don't react with her I am accused of being unsympathetic, etc. The event starts, she puts on her smile, receives narcissistic supply as admiration for her presentation, expects me to just act like her behavior moments ago didn't hurt me, and on it goes. When the event is over, the mess stays out for a while, she begins to feel shame/guilt that she didn't clean up, she starts thinking she did made a fool of herself at the event, and its all downhill. Once her shame kicks in she starts projecting it onto me, accusing me with scoffing looks of contempt, etc. When I don't ignore her cold behavior and talk to her about her feelings I'm suddenly the tyrant again. What a trip.
Another thing she does before events is rearrange the furniture. In fact, furniture at our house is rearranged definitely every week...
When would attempt to travel together in the beginning it was a miserable affair. I started calling it "travailing" instead of traveling. That was a red flag I didn't pick up on, for sure.
Sorry... went on a tangent from the topic. I guess it could be related. an up mood comes easier, it seems, when there's a source or narcissistic supply. When that's gone, it gets dark.... or the moon.. ;)
Quote from: rubixcube on June 05, 2019, 02:07:05 PM
Parties...
SoT, you nailed it.
I have almost the same experience here. My uB/NPDw(quiet Borderline or vulnerable narc. Not sure) goes all out to make things pretty and elegant(just for show of course), doesn't plan her time well at all, then stresses out just before the event. When she's stressing she starts attacking me as if I caused her stress. Then when I don't react with her I am accused of being unsympathetic, etc. The event starts, she puts on her smile, receives narcissistic supply as admiration for her presentation, expects me to just act like her behavior moments ago didn't hurt me, and on it goes. When the event is over, the mess stays out for a while, she begins to feel shame/guilt that she didn't clean up, she starts thinking she did made a fool of herself at the event, and its all downhill. Once her shame kicks in she starts projecting it onto me, accusing me with scoffing looks of contempt, etc. When I don't ignore her cold behavior and talk to her about her feelings I'm suddenly the tyrant again. What a trip.
Another thing she does before events is rearrange the furniture. In fact, furniture at our house is rearranged definitely every week...
When would attempt to travel together in the beginning it was a miserable affair. I started calling it "travailing" instead of traveling. That was a red flag I didn't pick up on, for sure.
Sorry... went on a tangent from the topic. I guess it could be related. an up mood comes easier, it seems, when there's a source or narcissistic supply. When that's gone, it gets dark.... or the moon.. ;)
Rubix,
You must be a very tired man having to live in a constantly rearranging household. Sorry you have to deal with that. Yes i think my uPDw is a blend of cluster b's (i see NPD specific and BPD specific traits) and they sound very similar from the party scene and blaming side. If you have not yet, read 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist' by Fjelstad. You will surely see your wife in that book and surely also, see yourself. All the while, we will keep using the Out of the FOG tools everyday. Let her go up and down and you just put it on toolbox cruise control right down the center lane.
SoT
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 05, 2019, 02:40:44 PM
Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist
Fantastic book. It, and all of her work, became an instant resource for me. I definitely saw myself in it, and it was extremely validating to read about the behaviors I experience with my wife.
Here's a question that's related:
Let's say the day before the "up" mood my wife and I had a "talk" and she deflected with blame and self justification every concern I had about her behavior, and in typical un-empathetic fashion disregarded with contempt how her behavior might be affecting me. My needs weren't met, and I can't expect them to be met through discussion. Her anger increases and she expresses that I'm the cause of her anger, etc. Typical crazy-making stuff. I can see right through it now and don't let it provoke an immediate reaction from me.
The next day begins her "up"/hypo-manic mood as if nothing happened the evening before.
What is a normal response from me?
This question is more to coyote and SoT, but really I'd love to hear everyone's response. I can really relate to you two and often mentally think "what would they do?" in a situation.
My reaction is to feel awkward, a bit confused, and not know how to interact with my wife who just split back up to happy. I get disappointed my needs weren't met and can't help thinking they'll never be met (a definite possibility). I know too that if I don't go "up" with her, then she looks down on me as if there something wrong with me for no reason. My temptation to feel shame and guilt kicks in and I feel the urge to caretake for sure to make everything alright again. She can't see how her behavior affects me, ultimately.
What do you guys do in those situations?
Are you calm or is it naturally an awkward situation?
Are you not confused and gaslighted by the sudden crazy-making split?
Does it still confuse you but you have tools for managing the confusion and disappointment?
Does it provoke a physiological response no matter what?
What helps in managing your own behavior when your w splits like that and expects you to play along and ignore any wrong was done?
Hi Rubix,
You wrote:
"Let's say the day before the "up" mood my wife and I had a "talk" and she deflected with blame and self justification every concern I had about her behavior, and in typical un-empathetic fashion disregarded with contempt how her behavior might be affecting me. My needs weren't met, and I can't expect them to be met through discussion. Her anger increases and she expresses that I'm the cause of her anger, etc. Typical crazy-making stuff. I can see right through it now and don't let it provoke an immediate reaction from me."
I am of the opinion that those type conversations with a PD are not only useless for our own benefit (yes it may help you feel temporarily better but not worth the aftermath), but are also fodder for a PD to use against us, in a variety of ways. For example, your wife may seem 'up' following this type of conversation, as a proactive way for her to passive-aggressively show you that you are wrong about her and your statements and at the same time, turn the table on you, by blame-shifting, when you "...don't go 'up' with her.." the following day. This in turn causes a circular baiting pattern that helps her stay in full control (where she needs to be as a PD) in order for her to hide behind, and to keep you fully engaged and off balance.
I want to suggest to you to stop having these type conversations with her, but silently understand she will continue the up and down because of the PD traits/baits. When you see the down, you use boundaries and the toolbox to stay in the emotional middle. When she then goes up, do the same thing. She will realize that you are not in-tow any longer and may amplify the up/down or try some other tactic to bait you into response. My uPDw thrives on trying to do this, because the control, interaction and attempts to keep me off center is her supply. After a while, she basically just started ignoring me altogether.
I also want to caution you that creating these boundaries for yourself (rules of engagement you put on YOU, not her/others) to keep yourself in the center can make your marriage seem very detached and distant, and its just a part of being married to a PD (see 50% rule). If you have kids, pour your energies into them and in balance, work on your male friendships, if you feel you need someone other than your kids to interact with.
If you feel your experiences may be similar to mine and others here in these ways, click on our names here on the forum and look at our past posts on a variety of subjects and you may find conversations here that resonate with your experiences, as many of us are on various stages along the same path in marriage to a PD.
In my opinion, definitely focus on creating boundaries for yourself (proper boundaries as many don't do boundaries correctly, as they try to enforce rules on others). Also focus on Medium Chill, no J-A-D-E, 50% rule and the 51% rule.
SoT
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 06, 2019, 12:05:36 PM
I am of the opinion that those type conversations with a PD are not only useless for our own benefit (yes it may help you feel temporarily better but not worth the aftermath), but are also fodder for a PD to use against us, in a variety of ways. For example, your wife may seem 'up' following this type of conversation, as a proactive way for her to passive-aggressively show you that you are wrong about her and your statements and at the same time, turn the table on you, by blame-shifting, when you "...don't go 'up' with her.." the following day. This in turn causes a circular baiting pattern that helps her stay in full control (where she needs to be as a PD) in order for her to hide behind, and to keep you fully engaged and off balance.
I want to suggest to you to stop having these type conversations with her, but silently understand she will continue the up and down because of the PD traits/baits. When you see the down, you use boundaries and the toolbox to stay in the emotional middle. When she then goes up, do the same thing. She will realize that you are not in-tow any longer and may amplify the up/down or try some other tactic to bait you into response. My uPDw thrives on trying to do this, because the control, interaction and attempts to keep me off center is her supply. After a while, she basically just started ignoring me altogether.
I'm very glad I asked. In fact, getting into the "talk" in the first place was me taking the bait. I try to keep things MC and no go into anything deep, then she may ask me a question that I feel requires mentioning a behavior to answer honestly... Bam! It starts. Then I'm on the defense trying not to JADE or get caught up in a circular conversation.
QuoteI also want to caution you that creating these boundaries for yourself (rules of engagement you put on YOU, not her/others) to keep yourself in the center can make your marriage seem very detached and distant, and its just a part of being married to a PD (see 50% rule).
I have experienced this already. In fact thing were going "well" until I picked up on what was happening in our relationship, realized I was caretaking, and decided to stop and get off the dysfunction triangle. Then everything went to hell and I became the tyrant for sticking up for myself.
Now that I've been only cleaning up my own mess, trying not to get sucked into the drama and JADE, am practicing being assertive, etc. our interactions have really just reduced down to a MC relationship (outside the moments where I slip and take the bait). My wife's BPD tendencies revolt at this kind of relationship it seems, hence the baiting.
Thank you for the reply SoT. I deeply appreciate it, and I really appreciate the advice. It's very validating to see you describe experiences I have every day.
Quote from: rubixcube on June 06, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 06, 2019, 12:05:36 PM
I am of the opinion that those type conversations with a PD are not only useless for our own benefit (yes it may help you feel temporarily better but not worth the aftermath), but are also fodder for a PD to use against us, in a variety of ways. For example, your wife may seem 'up' following this type of conversation, as a proactive way for her to passive-aggressively show you that you are wrong about her and your statements and at the same time, turn the table on you, by blame-shifting, when you "...don't go 'up' with her.." the following day. This in turn causes a circular baiting pattern that helps her stay in full control (where she needs to be as a PD) in order for her to hide behind, and to keep you fully engaged and off balance.
I want to suggest to you to stop having these type conversations with her, but silently understand she will continue the up and down because of the PD traits/baits. When you see the down, you use boundaries and the toolbox to stay in the emotional middle. When she then goes up, do the same thing. She will realize that you are not in-tow any longer and may amplify the up/down or try some other tactic to bait you into response. My uPDw thrives on trying to do this, because the control, interaction and attempts to keep me off center is her supply. After a while, she basically just started ignoring me altogether.
I'm very glad I asked. In fact, getting into the "talk" in the first place was me taking the bait. I try to keep things MC and no go into anything deep, then she may ask me a question that I feel requires mentioning a behavior to answer honestly... Bam! It starts. Then I'm on the defense trying not to JADE or get caught up in a circular conversation.
QuoteI also want to caution you that creating these boundaries for yourself (rules of engagement you put on YOU, not her/others) to keep yourself in the center can make your marriage seem very detached and distant, and its just a part of being married to a PD (see 50% rule).
I have experienced this already. In fact thing were going "well" until I picked up on what was happening in our relationship, realized I was caretaking, and decided to stop and get off the dysfunction triangle. Then everything went to hell and I became the tyrant for sticking up for myself.
Now that I've been only cleaning up my own mess, trying not to get sucked into the drama and JADE, am practicing being assertive, etc. our interactions have really just reduced down to a MC relationship (outside the moments where I slip and take the bait). My wife's BPD tendencies revolt at this kind of relationship it seems, hence the baiting.
Thank you for the reply SoT. I deeply appreciate it, and I really appreciate the advice. It's very validating to see you describe experiences I have every day.
Rubix,
Im sorry that you experience this in the relationship you have with your wife. I understand as well, the benefit of validation and you are truly welcome, as i received it here also a few years back, seeing myself and my spouse in the relationships of others here at Out of the FOG and on the written page.
Keep practicing the toolbox brother; use your past experiences with her, that didn't end up like you would have hoped for, and replay them in your mind. Like coaches and teams do in viewing past game footage of themselves and their opponent teams, use the practiced mental scenarios of the past to envision corrections to your toolbox game and think through, knowing your wife, how it could turn out differently next time. Gymnasts and track and field athletes (high jump/pole vault) also run through their routine in their head, going through proper procedure and form, over and over, and it is beneficial to them executing it in real time, most every time. They constantly hone their routine and form and i feel we must as well.
That mental scenario practice in dealing with my uPDw has really helped me to anticipate, and be sensitive to her PD behaviors that try to engage me and instead of being on 'defense', i have anticipated and practiced the toolbox in my mind and i now know how to/not to react. In most cases now, my implementation takes the wind from the PD sails at the front end, and i am able to continue to move along down the middle lane until the next episode of erratic PD behavior starts to encroach on my lane. Lather, rinse, repeat....
Sure its not how marriage was intended, but its the marriage i choose to remain in, for a variety of reasons that are my own. And, i have brothers and sisters here who fully understand. We are truly not alone in this, and have this in common. Best to you in your practice!
SoT
Thanks SoT
I was rereading Circular Conversations in the Toolbox. I thought I kind of understood it, but I was way off. I took the bait last week and got into a CC.
I read about that practice of envisioning an outcome before. I think it was Jack Canfield's Chicken Soup for the Soul. I'll give it a shot.
Maybe I'll try making flashcards of the toolbox tools. Might help to sink it in and define terms.
Quote from: rubixcube on June 07, 2019, 08:10:46 AM
Thanks SoT
I was rereading Circular Conversations in the Toolbox. I thought I kind of understood it, but I was way off. I took the bait last week and got into a CC.
I read about that practice of envisioning an outcome before. I think it was Jack Canfield's Chicken Soup for the Soul. I'll give it a shot.
Maybe I'll try making flashcards of the toolbox tools. Might help to sink it in and define terms.
Rubix, i will also add that it has always been to my great advantage to keep all things Out of the FOG/pd related to myself for my own understanding and planning and also not be fodder for the PD's in my life to know about, as it will be used to my disadvantage.
For me, i will not use flash cards because of the potential of them being found and lead to questions. Out of the FOG/PD terminology can also be looked up on the internet and therefore the source of your info revealed. For me, Out of the FOG is gold whose knowledge nobody knows except my brothers and sisters here who share this adventure alongside me.
In addition, my tools and successful implementation skills are my top secret military plans and revealed plans take away my growing advantage and potential longer periods of peace. Just food for thought about privacy and it's tremendous advantages to you, your peace and even in love, for your wife....as less drama and anxiety is good for everyone. ;)
SoT
Thank you SoT,
Actually, boundaries are something I've been forcing myself to learn/enforce and one of the first things I did was make it clear to my wife that she has no right to my journal. It's in Microsoft OneNote and that particular notebook is locked with a password. She tried several ways to guilt trip or shame me into sharing its contents with her in the past, but I put my foot down. I was thinking about physical flashcards, yes, and you're right... not a good idea. I can just do it in my locked digital journal!
Think of it as military encrypted communication... ;)
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 06, 2019, 05:31:16 PM
Quote from: rubixcube on June 06, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 06, 2019, 12:05:36 PM
Sure its not how marriage was intended, but its the marriage i choose to remain in, for a variety of reasons that are my own. And, i have brothers and sisters here who fully understand. We are truly not alone in this, and have this in common.
I echo this wholeheartedly and draw strength from it. Best wishes rubixcube.
Mary
Quote from: rubixcube on June 10, 2019, 12:37:58 PM
Thank you SoT,
Actually, boundaries are something I've been forcing myself to learn/enforce and one of the first things I did was make it clear to my wife that she has no right to my journal. It's in Microsoft OneNote and that particular notebook is locked with a password. She tried several ways to guilt trip or shame me into sharing its contents with her in the past, but I put my foot down. I was thinking about physical flashcards, yes, and you're right... not a good idea. I can just do it in my locked digital journal!
Think of it as military encrypted communication... ;)
Rubix,
I know i must be coming across as scrutinizing to your replies, but i must point out truth where i see it and please understand my comments are made in a loving mindset (desiring what is best for another person) to you.
You wrote "...and one of the first things I did was make it clear to my wife that she has no right to my journal." That is not a proper boundary, because it attempts to control the actions/reactions of another person, whom none of us have the power to do. A proper boundary is designed to protect ourselves or another person/animal or thing that we have responsibility to protect, by designing and controlling OUR OWN actions and reactions.
Your next comment: "She tried several ways to guilt trip or shame me into sharing its contents with her in the past, but I put my foot down" proves that your improper and revealed 'boundary' was immediately challenged and will continue (because your journalling plans were revealed) to be used as fodder for your PD to try and manipulate/shame/guilt you. She will always be intrigued about that journal and potentially use it as a way to claim she cannot trust you. That revelation puts you at the disadvantage and always in a defensive position as she, in the offensive position, uses her newfound knowledge against you in a variety of ways.
The proper way to design that boundary would have been this statement, kept private to yourself and 100% followed through: "I, Rubix, will journal 100% privately in Microsoft OneNote and that particular private notebook will be hidden from view and locked with a password that only i know. The journal will never be revealed to my PD or anyone and therefore i am assured its privacy and my freedom from any PD behaviors related to it, and may fully enjoy the benefits of journalling".
In a caring mindset,
SoT
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 11, 2019, 10:17:19 AM
You wrote "...and one of the first things I did was make it clear to my wife that she has no right to my journal." That is not a proper boundary, because it attempts to control the actions/reactions of another person, whom none of us have the power to do. A proper boundary is designed to protect ourselves or another person/animal or thing that we have responsibility to protect, by designing and controlling OUR OWN actions and reactions.
Your next comment: "She tried several ways to guilt trip or shame me into sharing its contents with her in the past, but I put my foot down" proves that your improper and revealed 'boundary' was immediately challenged and will continue (because your journalling plans were revealed) to be used as fodder for your PD to try and manipulate/shame/guilt you. She will always be intrigued about that journal and potentially use it as a way to claim she cannot trust you. That revelation puts you at the disadvantage and always in a defensive position as she, in the offensive position, uses her newfound knowledge against you in a variety of ways.
The proper way to design that boundary would have been this statement, kept private to yourself and 100% followed through: "I, Rubix, will journal 100% privately in Microsoft OneNote and that particular private notebook will be hidden from view and locked with a password that only i know. The journal will never be revealed to my PD or anyone and therefore i am assured its privacy and my freedom from any PD behaviors related to it, and may fully enjoy the benefits of journalling".
You're absolutely right. Thanks! And don't worry, my skin isn't so thin. I appreciate the feedback. That's the whole point of me being here.
Boundaries and setting or even defining what they are is completely new ground for me. To your point, my biggest mistake was revealing it even exists.
Given that blunder, what would be the proper way to set a
new boundary and enforce it when she does exactly as you said, uses guilt/shame and knowledge of my journal's existence as a reason why she can't trust me(she has said this almost verbatim), etc.
Putting my foot down, meaning, I refused to let her see it, seemed like my only option here. And it's extremely difficult to do. It certainly made me feel anxious and combative. I'd love another option, because I'm sure it'll come up again... Any suggestions?
I really appreciate the feedback!
Hello Rubix,
1. Any new boundary to be made is on yourself, to not reveal anything to your PDw, but rather to keep all things PD related to yourself and to educate yourself and journal in total privacy and in a way that is never to be discovered.
2. In relation to your journal blunder, the battle plans have already been revealed so she will always be aware that you are journaling and will probably be looking for cracks in your security/privacy of the journal to manipulate you into guilt/shame and keep you worn down by 'lack of trust' and lack of 'oneness' in marriage by needing to have a private journal (now revealed).
*In certain circumstances, because of my medium chill (MC) and no-JADE practices when asked baiting questions designed to belittle me into an inferior position, my uPDw has gone as far as accusing me of having an affair, because i am MC'ing her with neutral answers to boundary-protect myself from manipulation by use of the Out of the FOG toolbox. Those accusations are met with more neutral comments, such as "im sorry you feel that way" and they end with me walking away and her giving me the prolonged ST (silent treatment), because of my unwillingness to take the bait.
So therefore, regarding your revealed journal, in my opinion, you must not bring it up again and when asked/commented about it (over and over) your going to need to have a (privately crafted) MC collection of neutral phrases to say in ways that state "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way". The choices and wording of phrases should sound like they would naturally come from Rubix' mind/mouth, not said in a smart-a$$ manner and fit a style that flows in conversation with MrsRubix.
I can say "im sorry you feel that way" to MrsSoT, but with MrsRubix, that phrase may have to be worded a different way or MrsRubix is going to say "Rubix, whats wrong with you..??" Your neutral phrases are not questions as that invites circular conversations, but conversation ending statements.
—————
MrsRubix: "Rubix, you said last week that i have no access to your private journal...im your wife!..your 'soul-mate'. Do you not trust me or do you have something to hide??"
*if she gives a backhanded comment at you to belittle you, instead of a baiting question (like above), do not respond at all because there was no question and be prepared with "did you ask a question?" when she asks why you didnt respond to her backhanded comment.
Rubix: "MrsRubix, im sorry that you feel you cant trust me or that i have something to hide (says i hear you) and i surely care deeply about you (says i care)". (Dont address the journal question...because thats a j.a.d. E=Explain to the baiting question).
MrsRubix: "Rubix what about the journal!!"
Rubix: "i dont care to discuss journaling" (silence and walk away).
Lather-Rinse-Repeat...
SoT
QuoteI am of the opinion that those type conversations with a PD are not only useless for our own benefit (yes it may help you feel temporarily better but not worth the aftermath), but are also fodder for a PD to use against us, in a variety of ways. For example, your wife may seem 'up' following this type of conversation, as a proactive way for her to passive-aggressively show you that you are wrong about her and your statements and at the same time, turn the table on you, by blame-shifting, when you "...don't go 'up' with her.." the following day. This in turn causes a circular baiting pattern that helps her stay in full control (where she needs to be as a PD) in order for her to hide behind, and to keep you fully engaged and off balance.
:yeahthat:
The wonderful thing about banging one's head against a rock is that it feels better when one stops. Explaining my feelings or how her behavior makes me feel is useless. In my experience these folks lack any real empathy. They have it harder than anyone else. They are not responsible for any of there behaviors. Others made them angry, sad, etc.
After all of these years (26), I have decided to treat the up times like the down times: Medium Chill and Grey Rock. It isn't my job to regulate her emotions. If she cannot grow up and become an adult, that is not my problem. I buried my true feelings inside a core with a locked door. I had to. That was the only way I could protect my psyche. I started to hate her...just a little bit. Not too much. Just enough to maintain my sanity.
I know that every thorn has a rose and silver lining has a cloud. I focus on my joy.
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 12, 2019, 07:36:08 PM
Hello Rubix,
1. Any new boundary to be made is on yourself, to not reveal anything to your PDw, but rather to keep all things PD related to yourself and to educate yourself and journal in total privacy and in a way that is never to be discovered.
2. In relation to your journal blunder, the battle plans have already been revealed so she will always be aware that you are journaling and will probably be looking for cracks in your security/privacy of the journal to manipulate you into guilt/shame and keep you worn down by 'lack of trust' and lack of 'oneness' in marriage by needing to have a private journal (now revealed).
*In certain circumstances, because of my medium chill (MC) and no-JADE practices when asked baiting questions designed to belittle me into an inferior position, my uPDw has gone as far as accusing me of having an affair, because i am MC'ing her with neutral answers to boundary-protect myself from manipulation by use of the Out of the FOG toolbox. Those accusations are met with more neutral comments, such as "im sorry you feel that way" and they end with me walking away and her giving me the prolonged ST (silent treatment), because of my unwillingness to take the bait.
So therefore, regarding your revealed journal, in my opinion, you must not bring it up again and when asked/commented about it (over and over) your going to need to have a (privately crafted) MC collection of neutral phrases to say in ways that state "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way". The choices and wording of phrases should sound like they would naturally come from Rubix' mind/mouth, not said in a smart-a$$ manner and fit a style that flows in conversation with MrsRubix.
I can say "im sorry you feel that way" to MrsSoT, but with MrsRubix, that phrase may have to be worded a different way or MrsRubix is going to say "Rubix, whats wrong with you..??" Your neutral phrases are not questions as that invites circular conversations, but conversation ending statements.
—————
MrsRubix: "Rubix, you said last week that i have no access to your private journal...im your wife!..your 'soul-mate'. Do you not trust me or do you have something to hide??"
*if she gives a backhanded comment at you to belittle you, instead of a baiting question (like above), do not respond at all because there was no question and be prepared with "did you ask a question?" when she asks why you didnt respond to her backhanded comment.
Rubix: "MrsRubix, im sorry that you feel you cant trust me or that i have something to hide (says i hear you) and i surely care deeply about you (says i care)". (Dont address the journal question...because thats a j.a.d. E=Explain to the baiting question).
MrsRubix: "Rubix what about the journal!!"
Rubix: "i dont care to discuss journaling" (silence and walk away).
Lather-Rinse-Repeat...
SoT
SoT,
This is pure gold. I'm really grateful that you took the time to spell this out. As you can imagine, just the "how" for how to do some of these things escapes me. I still have 1 foot in the fog so this really helps.
I still struggle with (feel an aversion to) communicating this way a bit. "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way".
Maybe I'm still too much in the fog/grieving anger phase to want to acknowledge I care about her. Maybe I feel hurt and vulnerable doing that. Of course I do care about her as a person, but I'm questioning how much I care about her as a wife/partner. I think time can heal this part though, and especially helpful would be forcing myself to communicate like that. Thank you.
This contextual explanation of boundary setting has come at the right time. Right now she is away for a 1 week intensive therapy session in Georgia. I spoke with her a couple times and it seems the therapist has completely missed the covert narcissistic side of her issues. I know she'll be coming back with an arsenal of weapon to use against me next time her mood goes south. MC, no JADEing, boundaries, no circular conversation... Bootcamp is almost over...
Thanks again brother
Quote from: rubixcube on June 14, 2019, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 12, 2019, 07:36:08 PM
Hello Rubix,
1. Any new boundary to be made is on yourself, to not reveal anything to your PDw, but rather to keep all things PD related to yourself and to educate yourself and journal in total privacy and in a way that is never to be discovered.
2. In relation to your journal blunder, the battle plans have already been revealed so she will always be aware that you are journaling and will probably be looking for cracks in your security/privacy of the journal to manipulate you into guilt/shame and keep you worn down by 'lack of trust' and lack of 'oneness' in marriage by needing to have a private journal (now revealed).
*In certain circumstances, because of my medium chill (MC) and no-JADE practices when asked baiting questions designed to belittle me into an inferior position, my uPDw has gone as far as accusing me of having an affair, because i am MC'ing her with neutral answers to boundary-protect myself from manipulation by use of the Out of the FOG toolbox. Those accusations are met with more neutral comments, such as "im sorry you feel that way" and they end with me walking away and her giving me the prolonged ST (silent treatment), because of my unwillingness to take the bait.
So therefore, regarding your revealed journal, in my opinion, you must not bring it up again and when asked/commented about it (over and over) your going to need to have a (privately crafted) MC collection of neutral phrases to say in ways that state "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way". The choices and wording of phrases should sound like they would naturally come from Rubix' mind/mouth, not said in a smart-a$$ manner and fit a style that flows in conversation with MrsRubix.
I can say "im sorry you feel that way" to MrsSoT, but with MrsRubix, that phrase may have to be worded a different way or MrsRubix is going to say "Rubix, whats wrong with you..??" Your neutral phrases are not questions as that invites circular conversations, but conversation ending statements.
—————
MrsRubix: "Rubix, you said last week that i have no access to your private journal...im your wife!..your 'soul-mate'. Do you not trust me or do you have something to hide??"
*if she gives a backhanded comment at you to belittle you, instead of a baiting question (like above), do not respond at all because there was no question and be prepared with "did you ask a question?" when she asks why you didnt respond to her backhanded comment.
Rubix: "MrsRubix, im sorry that you feel you cant trust me or that i have something to hide (says i hear you) and i surely care deeply about you (says i care)". (Dont address the journal question...because thats a j.a.d. E=Explain to the baiting question).
MrsRubix: "Rubix what about the journal!!"
Rubix: "i dont care to discuss journaling" (silence and walk away).
Lather-Rinse-Repeat...
SoT
SoT,
This is pure gold. I'm really grateful that you took the time to spell this out. As you can imagine, just the "how" for how to do some of these things escapes me. I still have 1 foot in the fog so this really helps.
I still struggle with (feel an aversion to) communicating this way a bit. "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way".
Maybe I'm still too much in the fog/grieving anger phase to want to acknowledge I care about her. Maybe I feel hurt and vulnerable doing that. Of course I do care about her as a person, but I'm questioning how much I care about her as a wife/partner. I think time can heal this part though, and especially helpful would be forcing myself to communicate like that. Thank you.
This contextual explanation of boundary setting has come at the right time. Right now she is away for a 1 week intensive therapy session in Georgia. I spoke with her a couple times and it seems the therapist has completely missed the covert narcissistic side of her issues. I know she'll be coming back with an arsenal of weapon to use against me next time her mood goes south. MC, no JADEing, boundaries, no circular conversation... Bootcamp is almost over...
Thanks again brother
Rubix,
I fully understand your feelings of caring about her as a person but struggling as a wife/partner. For me personally, I came Out of the FOG a few years back but have now been married 28 years. I believe my uPDw is a mix of BPD/NPD traits and reading has told me that PD's can be a combo of cluster B's.
When I came Out of the FOG, I asked myself whether I wanted to stay married to my uPDw, and I knew, with the tools here at Out of the FOG, that I could dramatically improve my life and the life of my adult children (26 and 21), by reducing marital and family drama a great deal. But, by focusing on the tools, knowing the 51% rule and staying married to her, I would be facing a lifetime with a spouse who would be kept at an emotional distance. I had really study and redefine what 'love' is to me. For me, love is: wanting and facilitating what is 'best' for another person.
For me personally, 'best' is determined by an outside foundational source, not from within myself. I choose the teachings of the Bible and the example of Christ. I 100% feel that others are free to choose their own foundational source, but I do not believe that we can be our own source. Christ 'loves' a ton of people who don't love him back and he stays focused on his mission and not only am I grateful that he loves me like that, but I want to learn from his model.
I decided, in the 51% rule, that I would focus on my mental and physical health, just a little bit more (51/49) than on my loving of those I have committed and promised to love. It keeps me healthy and allows me enough energy to care for others. I thought about life without my uPDw and I determined I could 'love' her and still lead the fulfilling life I wanted for myself and care for the others in my life, but that unlike many, I would carry around and utilize an array of tools to protect myself while doing so. I have since started expanding my hobbies, working as much as I need to to grow my business (I'm self employed) and take care of myself mentally and physically, all while remaining married to my uPDw. It's working out well for me. I can't say that it would for everyone, but it does for me. I believe each of needs to decide for ourselves.
I am not a proponent of remaining in an abusive (emotionally and/or physically) relationship and 100% support those who must leave those relationships. For me, my uPDw tries to emotionally abuse me, and in the past I would take its full force and in the fog, be affected in a tremendous way. But now, when she attempts those manipulative maneuvers, it is quickly dissipated by the toolbox. After some time of continued ineffective manipulation, she realized I would calmly sidestep and now, for the most part, does not attempt them and just stays 'distant'. Her emotional distance is peace for me, and I am enjoying as much peace as I can get. ;)
I wish you the best as you make decisions for yourself and no matter what, strengthen yourself with the toolbox. Those tools are perfect for dealing with humanity in general, not only the PD's in our inner circle. I feel that %'s of PD's in the world are much higher than current statistics would state and my experiences confirm this for me as I deal with others.
Brother, I look forward to reading about your growth and life with/without your PDw, whatever you feel is 'best' for you and the others in your life that you are responsible for. You are not alone! My wish for you is to strengthen yourself with the tools and embrace life improvement goals for yourself, while guarding yourself with the tools. You surely have understanding friends here at Out of the FOG. :thumbup:
SoT.
Many thanks for the very generous sharing and discussion in this thread.
My take away is that I want to be the same calm, level headed woman all the time regardless of where my uPD hubby is in his up/down pattern of behaviours. I want to be the same. I want to remain as ME. I want to be stable.
In the past, I definitely shaped myself to fit in with his moods. It feels very important to me now where I am in my recovery journey for me to remain consistent and true to myself.
I like peace and quiet, Medium Chill brings me this.
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 17, 2019, 06:49:47 AM
Quote from: rubixcube on June 14, 2019, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: SonofThunder on June 12, 2019, 07:36:08 PM
Hello Rubix,
1. Any new boundary to be made is on yourself, to not reveal anything to your PDw, but rather to keep all things PD related to yourself and to educate yourself and journal in total privacy and in a way that is never to be discovered.
2. In relation to your journal blunder, the battle plans have already been revealed so she will always be aware that you are journaling and will probably be looking for cracks in your security/privacy of the journal to manipulate you into guilt/shame and keep you worn down by 'lack of trust' and lack of 'oneness' in marriage by needing to have a private journal (now revealed).
*In certain circumstances, because of my medium chill (MC) and no-JADE practices when asked baiting questions designed to belittle me into an inferior position, my uPDw has gone as far as accusing me of having an affair, because i am MC'ing her with neutral answers to boundary-protect myself from manipulation by use of the Out of the FOG toolbox. Those accusations are met with more neutral comments, such as "im sorry you feel that way" and they end with me walking away and her giving me the prolonged ST (silent treatment), because of my unwillingness to take the bait.
So therefore, regarding your revealed journal, in my opinion, you must not bring it up again and when asked/commented about it (over and over) your going to need to have a (privately crafted) MC collection of neutral phrases to say in ways that state "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way". The choices and wording of phrases should sound like they would naturally come from Rubix' mind/mouth, not said in a smart-a$$ manner and fit a style that flows in conversation with MrsRubix.
I can say "im sorry you feel that way" to MrsSoT, but with MrsRubix, that phrase may have to be worded a different way or MrsRubix is going to say "Rubix, whats wrong with you..??" Your neutral phrases are not questions as that invites circular conversations, but conversation ending statements.
—————
MrsRubix: "Rubix, you said last week that i have no access to your private journal...im your wife!..your 'soul-mate'. Do you not trust me or do you have something to hide??"
*if she gives a backhanded comment at you to belittle you, instead of a baiting question (like above), do not respond at all because there was no question and be prepared with "did you ask a question?" when she asks why you didnt respond to her backhanded comment.
Rubix: "MrsRubix, im sorry that you feel you cant trust me or that i have something to hide (says i hear you) and i surely care deeply about you (says i care)". (Dont address the journal question...because thats a j.a.d. E=Explain to the baiting question).
MrsRubix: "Rubix what about the journal!!"
Rubix: "i dont care to discuss journaling" (silence and walk away).
Lather-Rinse-Repeat...
SoT
SoT,
This is pure gold. I'm really grateful that you took the time to spell this out. As you can imagine, just the "how" for how to do some of these things escapes me. I still have 1 foot in the fog so this really helps.
I still struggle with (feel an aversion to) communicating this way a bit. "i hear you, i care about you, and im sorry you feel that way".
Maybe I'm still too much in the fog/grieving anger phase to want to acknowledge I care about her. Maybe I feel hurt and vulnerable doing that. Of course I do care about her as a person, but I'm questioning how much I care about her as a wife/partner. I think time can heal this part though, and especially helpful would be forcing myself to communicate like that. Thank you.
This contextual explanation of boundary setting has come at the right time. Right now she is away for a 1 week intensive therapy session in Georgia. I spoke with her a couple times and it seems the therapist has completely missed the covert narcissistic side of her issues. I know she'll be coming back with an arsenal of weapon to use against me next time her mood goes south. MC, no JADEing, boundaries, no circular conversation... Bootcamp is almost over...
Thanks again brother
Rubix,
I fully understand your feelings of caring about her as a person but struggling as a wife/partner. For me personally, I came Out of the FOG a few years back but have now been married 28 years. I believe my uPDw is a mix of BPD/NPD traits and reading has told me that PD's can be a combo of cluster B's.
When I came Out of the FOG, I asked myself whether I wanted to stay married to my uPDw, and I knew, with the tools here at Out of the FOG, that I could dramatically improve my life and the life of my adult children (26 and 21), by reducing marital and family drama a great deal. But, by focusing on the tools, knowing the 51% rule and staying married to her, I would be facing a lifetime with a spouse who would be kept at an emotional distance. I had really study and redefine what 'love' is to me. For me, love is: wanting and facilitating what is 'best' for another person.
For me personally, 'best' is determined by an outside foundational source, not from within myself. I choose the teachings of the Bible and the example of Christ. I 100% feel that others are free to choose their own foundational source, but I do not believe that we can be our own source. Christ 'loves' a ton of people who don't love him back and he stays focused on his mission and not only am I grateful that he loves me like that, but I want to learn from his model.
I decided, in the 51% rule, that I would focus on my mental and physical health, just a little bit more (51/49) than on my loving of those I have committed and promised to love. It keeps me healthy and allows me enough energy to care for others. I thought about life without my uPDw and I determined I could 'love' her and still lead the fulfilling life I wanted for myself and care for the others in my life, but that unlike many, I would carry around and utilize an array of tools to protect myself while doing so. I have since started expanding my hobbies, working as much as I need to to grow my business (I'm self employed) and take care of myself mentally and physically, all while remaining married to my uPDw. It's working out well for me. I can't say that it would for everyone, but it does for me. I believe each of needs to decide for ourselves.
I am not a proponent of remaining in an abusive (emotionally and/or physically) relationship and 100% support those who must leave those relationships. For me, my uPDw tries to emotionally abuse me, and in the past I would take its full force and in the fog, be affected in a tremendous way. But now, when she attempts those manipulative maneuvers, it is quickly dissipated by the toolbox. After some time of continued ineffective manipulation, she realized I would calmly sidestep and now, for the most part, does not attempt them and just stays 'distant'. Her emotional distance is peace for me, and I am enjoying as much peace as I can get. ;)
I wish you the best as you make decisions for yourself and no matter what, strengthen yourself with the toolbox. Those tools are perfect for dealing with humanity in general, not only the PD's in our inner circle. I feel that %'s of PD's in the world are much higher than current statistics would state and my experiences confirm this for me as I deal with others.
Brother, I look forward to reading about your growth and life with/without your PDw, whatever you feel is 'best' for you and the others in your life that you are responsible for. You are not alone! My wish for you is to strengthen yourself with the tools and embrace life improvement goals for yourself, while guarding yourself with the tools. You surely have understanding friends here at Out of the FOG. :thumbup:
SoT.
SoT, I couldn't agree with you more, especially where you reference seeing a point of reference for "best" in something outside the self(which is prone to filtering anyway). And for me too, Christ, and might I add the army of saints in the history of the Church, are the models of behavior or state of soul. I have several living examples in my life of model human beings who have mastered to various degrees the passions and are on the path of purification. I consult with them weekly in fact, and it's from these sober minded people, and people like yourself, that I gain direction in how to approach these very confusing things.
I've read somewhere and I agree as well that having an abusive narcissist in your life is a gift. It shows us who we are, what we need to work on, why we attracted them to begin with, and they are the catalysts for our own healing. Without these individuals; given to us, I believe; we may never have healed our own personalities.
Thank you deeply for the encouragement, SoT(and everyone here of course). It's invaluable to me, especially at this point in my life.
My own personal take on this kind of thing is that; its easy to be up when things are good. That isnt the mark of someone. Yes its important to remember things fluctuate and every has good and bad times. But if someone isnt worth the up, they certainly aren't worth the down. But then my personal choice is not to work so much on keeping such relationships, so my view is different.
I just wanted to add that I feel uPD husbands "up" moods are just as fake and dysfunctional as his "down" moods.
None of it reflects real life, in my experience.
Quote from: GentleSoul on July 14, 2019, 11:32:03 AM
I just wanted to add that I feel uPD husbands "up" moods are just as fake and dysfunctional as his "down" moods.
None of it reflects real life, in my experience.
My experience is similar. The "up" moods have a sort of surreal quality to them. I found the term "hypomanic" a welcome relief to explain kind of what they're like. My wife's ups are her dysfunctional happiness because she successfully offloaded her shame onto me, or enough time has passed and I, in codependent fashion, haven't held her accountable for her previous anger/shaming/blaming. So yeah... very dysfunctional.
Quote from: rubixcube on July 15, 2019, 07:34:00 AM
Quote from: GentleSoul on July 14, 2019, 11:32:03 AM
I just wanted to add that I feel uPD husbands "up" moods are just as fake and dysfunctional as his "down" moods.
None of it reflects real life, in my experience.
My experience is similar. The "up" moods have a sort of surreal quality to them. I found the term "hypomanic" a welcome relief to explain kind of what they're like. My wife's ups are her dysfunctional happiness because she successfully offloaded her shame onto me, or enough time has passed and I, in codependent fashion, haven't held her accountable for her previous anger/shaming/blaming. So yeah... very dysfunctional.
Thanks for sharing this. Interesting.
This is so apt for me, because the mood just dropped about an hour ago. Everything had been in high hoover mode for a couple weeks, so much that, as you said, I began to forget the down side of things and think maybe I could and should do better myself. Without going into great detail, I said the "wrong" thing and set off the landslide. Sincere pain in her, but all based on such wrong premises.
Anyway, to your question, I'm never fully at ease in the up phase, because I hate it so much when the mood drops and I get stressed and feel caught in a web. Even though intellectually I know better, my inner self feels disappointed and frustrated once again.
Quote from: Grahamcracker on July 27, 2019, 01:16:17 PM
This is so apt for me, because the mood just dropped about an hour ago. Everything had been in high hoover mode for a couple weeks, so much that, as you said, I began to forget the down side of things and think maybe I could and should do better myself. Without going into great detail, I said the "wrong" thing and set off the landslide. Sincere pain in her, but all based on such wrong premises.
Anyway, to your question, I'm never fully at ease in the up phase, because I hate it so much when the mood drops and I get stressed and feel caught in a web. Even though intellectually I know better, my inner self feels disappointed and frustrated once again.
Hang in there! It's one of the worst feelings in the world. It has a way of sucking all hope out of us. Like a giant mosquito...
Quote from: Blackbird11 on February 02, 2019, 07:45:19 AM
My H is in an up mood right now. It honestly makes the house feel lighter. Energy is calm. He's cracking jokes and being the person he is to people outside the home. It's nice and also confusing as I'm still emotionally intertwined with this version of him, which is the reason I haven't been able to just leave. I'm still in the fog, I guess. I hope over time it will become clearer.
Blackbird, you sum it up nicely. Confusion and emotionally intertwined.
My husband was in an up mood yesterday. He had the day off and did some shopping and bought too much. Then he paced back and forth, talking non stop about other things to spend money on. He has lots of energy and his moods like this almost seem a little manic to me. They never last long though.
Quote from: Cascade on November 30, 2019, 07:19:02 PM
My husband was in an up mood yesterday. He had the day off and did some shopping and bought too much. Then he paced back and forth, talking non stop about other things to spend money on. He has lots of energy and his moods like this almost seem a little manic to me. They never last long though.
Same with my w. There's just something odd about the up mood. I found the term "hypomanic" to explain it well. It's surreal.
I'm only a m month into realizing I'm married's to a Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist. I feel so liberated in just realizing and seeing his behavior for what it is. But I'm still working on my responses to his behavior. I definitely feel in his ups that I'm crazy for even considering he is a CN. I decided to red through my journal when he's in his ups. Not to wallow in his past behavior, but to remind myself that I'm not crazy. I find that I can read it, and put it away and not ruminate over all the crazy-making. It helps me to not join him on his ups and makes the downs less painful. I have to compartmentalize his behavior, the ups and downs. I do take the opportunity to create good memories and positively respond to his ups. Maybe over time, using the toolbox and MC and GRM, he'll recognize the positive reaction to the up and the non reaction to the downs and stay in and up mood more?? My fear is that if I don't feed his supply he's going to find someone who does. But I guess I can't control that and I keep reminding myself that I can't be abused just for him to stay. That sounds SO messed up.
Quote from: CNWife on December 24, 2019, 11:24:11 AM
Maybe over time, using the toolbox and MC and GRM, he'll recognize the positive reaction to the up and the non reaction to the downs and stay in and up mood more??
This is interesting. I don't do much to reward the ups with my covert passive aggressive narc wife. But the overall mood in the house is better and I'm not treading as carefully. You'd think she'd notice, like people who can read social cues would, but it doesn't seem like she does. If she does notice, as soon as her mood begins to shift again it's all forgotten.
I'm starting see what looks like a correlation between her shame and her blame. When she starts going dark, coming out of the "up", she begins to feel inner shame. That's uncomfortable for her so, as a narcissist, she converts it to anger as her mechanism for dealing with it. When it becomes anger she begins her blame and projection. She snarls at me, is very Curt, mumbles, and is reticent. She seems to blame me for why she feels bad! God forbid I contradict her or bring up anything about our daily roles or responsibilities. Then she really feels justified in thinking I caused her mood...
What's interesting about this is that no matter what happens in the "up", if I'm not enabling and feeding her with narcissistic supply, I will always be the target. I became the target the day I stood up for myself after walking on eggshells and enabling her for 5 years. Her pity party and victim playing really came to life then.
Rube, you and I seem to share a lot of the same experiences. I am impressed by your apt descriptions, and wish you well.
Grahamcracker, I was thinking the same thing as soon as I saw your username had posted here, and I think it every time I read one of your posts.
It's a huge comfort knowing there are others with the same experiences!