Hoover alert.

[Cat of the Canals]

Yesterday was one of those days where juuuuust when I think things are starting to take a turn for the better, the rug gets pulled out from under me.

H and I have been talking a lot about boundaries. About coming to terms with our PD mothers not liking them, not being willing to respect them, etc. About boundaries being about US, first and foremost. About limiting or refusing contact if that's the only way to keep a boundary in place. About being comfortable in our discomfort at "upsetting" someone else when maintaining a boundary.

He's been doing well with that. His mother seems incapable of enduring a single phone call without pressuring him about visiting, so he's been replying (sparingly) via text only. She texted and called several times over the weekend and my husband said, "This probably means [stepdad] got vaccinated, and now she thinks they get to come visit."

He wisely didn't respond. Then, yesterday she texted that his stepdad won't have more than 2 days off until X date, so they won't be able to take any vacations until then. He took this to mean, "Maybe she finally gets it, and this is her way of saying that if I call her, she won't pressure me about it."

I said, "Yeah. And it's a trick. Even if it's not this time, it'll be next time. Or the time after. She's not going to stop."

If that wasn't bad enough, then he says, "So I've been thinking of just telling her to come in September. What do you think?"

I told him that if it was my decision alone, I would say no. He doesn't want her to come. I don't want her to come. The answer seems simple enough.

He said, "I know, but I figure we've put her off for two years. That's pretty good. And it's not like we can say no forever."

I said, "I've had that thought, too. Then I realized that we don't have to say no forever. And we aren't. We're only saying no for right now."

I added that it made sense to put it off for a variety of reasons: he's not done grieving his brother, we have work projects we're starting and need to stay focused on, we have work to do on the house and I don't want to feel additional pressure to have it done by a certain time, and lastly, that there's no reason to say yes NOW, even if we decide to eventually allow a visit.

So I think I at least convinced him not to schedule anything just yet. But oof!

But wait! There's more! Later that night he said, "I was thinking of sending her a big gift on Mother's Day. Do you think you'd want to send one to your mom, too?"

We don't even usually send cards. They get the obligatory call, and that's it. But one of the texts she'd sent yesterday was about how she'd just remembered one time, when he was three, he picked her a bunch of dandelions. "It was the best!!!!"

Gee, I wonder where he got the idea to send her an elaborate gift.

This is even more weird because we'd just been talking about a story we'd read about Garry Shandling presenting the Emmy he'd won to his mother. And she said, "You didn't thank me on TV." He said, "Mom, I'm here right now. In person. Giving you the Emmy. Would it have meant that much more to you if I'd done it on TV?" And she said, "Yes."

We related this to a story about how his brother, a few months before he died, had given their mom a bracelet on Mother's Day. (Again, totally out of the norm.) And how obvious it was that he was desperately trying to be "the ideal son" in an effort to find a way to get her to be "the ideal mom." How does he not see that's what's happening here???

I know it's not just that, though. H also started meditating again yesterday. And I think that elicits a lot of "forgiveness" type feelings. But I think we both have a habit of thinking that forgiveness equals kindness. The problem is that we are people-pleasers at heart, and kindness ends up being a slippery slope toward neglecting our own boundaries.

Ugh. I just wish he could let go of it. He's seemed so close these last few weeks. A twisted part of me wishes he would have called her just to be proven wrong. 

[Leonor]

Hi Cat,

I know, it's like ... We were just here. Why are we here again?

I think you've hit the nail on the head in your post. That mil of yours is a real piece of work. She purposely triggered him into a place in which he was just three years old. Three. Like the most adorable, loving, hugs and kisses age ever!

So here's mil, the world class narcissist. And little dh, with his little adorable pudgy hands, picking a bunch of bright yellow flowers to let mommy know how much he loves her and hoping, just hoping, that she will now love him.

Did it work? No. It didn't. But now she can just keep using that beautiful gesture to manipulate and abuse her boy. It's like brainwashing ... Oh, remember that day you really loved me?

He hasn't forgotten, or betrayed you. He's just terribly triggered by a terrible person. He's in his three year old child right now.

If you could kind of talk to the little dh, like, Oh, that's a nice idea, but remember last time we ...? That didn't work out so well. I know I wish we could do those things, but we wind up not feeling good afterwards. What about ... instead?

[blues_cruise]

That sounds so frustrating, I'm sorry you're having to witness your husband take these steps backwards.  Leonor has made an excellent point about your H probably being back in the mentality of his three year old self. It sounds a lot like the fawning trauma response, which is what I used to find myself doing with my uNF when I was deeply in the fog. When things are calm for a while you start to think it's a turning point in the relationship with your parent, then you start putting in more effort and making gestures to them to show how loveable you really are in the hope that the good times will continue to roll and they will continue being nice to you. It's all topsy turvy and dysfunctional but very much coming from a childlike place. 

It's so easy to get carried away with daydreams and lose sight of reality, plus devastating when the mask once again slips and you remember exactly what you're dealing with. It sounds like you're offering your H a lot of much needed grounding. If he goes further down this road then he is likely to be let down and disappointed by his mother again and it's good he's got someone watching his back (as frustrating as it must be to watch it unveil).

I added that it made sense to put it off for a variety of reasons: he's not done grieving his brother, we have work projects we're starting and need to stay focused on, we have work to do on the house and I don't want to feel additional pressure to have it done by a certain time, and lastly, that there's no reason to say yes NOW, even if we decide to eventually allow a visit.

Absolutely, all very valid, practical reasons for your MIL not to visit at this time (if ever!) 

[Cat of the Canals]

I really like that idea of talking to his inner child, Leonor. I'm going to remember that.

That sounds so frustrating, I'm sorry you're having to witness your husband take these steps backwards.

It really is. Thankfully he usually only slides backward a little ways and only very briefly.

And naturally, she is so inept that she's already managed to spoil it, all by herself. He spent a few hours texting with her that night. He eventually set his phone aside because we started watching a movie. I guess she couldn't resist going into Waif Mode once she stopped getting immediate responses. "I'm sorry I'm so burdensome."



Then, even though he was pretty put off by that, she managed to trick him into calling her the next day by leaving a cryptic message about his brother's estate and how she needed his input. This is the fourth or fifth time she's pulled this maneuver with something relating to his brother's death. She "needs" to know what he thinks about XYZ, and then when he calls her, it turns out all of the decisions have already been made (by her, of course). Instead, he was rewarded with forty minutes of gossip, stories of all the people she's "put in their place" this week, and more pressure to do things he's already said NO to fifty times. He's back to ignoring her texts. 

It's strange... he's always had more awareness of her dysfunction compared to me and my FOO. I had way more denial. My journey Out of the FOG was a struggle. He was already out, for the most part. But maybe the fact that he got here by gut instinct is playing a role in this back and forth. He's still operating by instinct. Feeling it out. Meanwhile, I've gotten here by doing all the homework. I've read the books and watched the videos and listened to all of you tell your stories.

[bloomie]

Cat of the Canals - this is a good update to the latest hoover maneuver you all have dealt with. Oh, how we wish that this recovery journey were a straight trajectory to health and wholeness and that we don't ever wobble around. But, we do wobble sometimes and even take steps back or return to old patterns we didn't even realize we still operating in us.

Another opportunity for learning and growth and you and your DH have used this frustration and tough situation to do that.

One thing that continues to help us (DH and myself) in terms of our stance with in law situations, communications, gift decisions, and all of the all... is to be mindful to be consistent in our messages. When we can lay that filter over a decision - such as a Mother's Day gift type of thing, or a visit, or even if to make a phone call, we find it resets us to neutral and takes the gut response/emotions out of the thing.

Because for us, consistency in our messages and our actions is the most respectful, kind and loving stance we can offer in relationships with anyone, but especially with those who have brought us so much harm and pain they are not reliably safe enough to be close to.

This is a core value we strive for and really helps when faced with the confusion and inner angst the ever changing face and manipulative ways of a family member can bring about within us.

[Cat of the Canals]

Because for us, consistency in our messages and our actions is the most respectful, kind and loving stance we can offer in relationships with anyone, but especially with those who have brought us so much harm and pain they are not reliably safe enough to be close to.

Thank you for this, Bloomie! It clarified something for me that I was struggling to put words to. When he first brought up the Mother's Day gift (and he has changed his mind on that now), and asked if I wanted to send something to my PD mother, I thought it over for a few seconds and then gave an emphatic, "No." I told him that it was up to him to decide what to do for his mother, but I felt very strongly that it was the wrong move for me. He initially pushed back a little, expressing worry that maybe I was becoming too hardened about all of it. That I "always have my dukes up, lately."

I sat with that while. I tried to figure out what it was about sending a gift that felt "wrong." I realized that to a narc, gifts are often a source of supply, and I don't want to be seen as a source anymore. But then I started to wonder: even if THEY see it as supply, is it possible for me to do something nice and just let it be? I thought maybe so.

The next day I was back to thinking it felt deeply wrong, and the closest I could come to an explanation was that it would feel like "playing along" with the dysfunction, which is what I've done for years. I've even fallen back into that a little bit this past year, without realizing it. This game of playing along seems to almost has a gaslighting effect on me, and I start thinking, "It's not SO bad, because look at how nice we're all playing together." Of course, the second I stop meeting my mother's demands, things aren't so nice, which tells the truth of the relationship.

But I think you summed it up even better, in a way that addresses both sides of the issue. Not only does playing along allow me to believe everything is fine and dandy, it's also sending that same message to my mother. Which sets her up to continue expecting me to play along. It's far more "fair" and respectful to maintain a consistent level of contact to keep my mother (and mil, for that matter) from having unrealistic expectations, whether that applies to phone calls, visits, gifts, etc.