article "how to understand and handle bitter people"

[treesgrowslowly]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/insight-is-2020/201910/how-understand-and-handle-bitter-people

From the article:

"Bitter men and women feel a mix of powerful negative emotions that they can't handle or "sit with." As a result, they seek to offload these negative feelings on the nearest object so they don't have to "carry" them alone any longer. Though bitter men and women would be hard-pressed to admit it, my clinical experience tells me that seeing that they have upset others is, in the most confusing and seemingly sadistic way, somewhat gratifying for them. In other words, they may feel better because they made you feel worse."

Thought I would post this because I think that a lot of us here have dealt with the exact situations he describes in his article. As people age, they can become very bitter - but if they possess very little self-awareness, they won't realize what they are doing is toxic to others. And I have not had any success in 'teaching' someone who is aging with bitterness, to examine their own behaviours.

The article does a great job of describing how bitter people behave (i.e. with passive aggression).

As I age I realize there is such a wide variety of ways that people deal with their own emotions. Some people can be in their 60s and 70s and 80s, and still not know how to handle their own emotions. A lot of these people are described pretty well by this article.

Those of us who went inside ourselves to learn about our own emotions, might always have a hard time understanding why someone else we know, has lived out their long decades, without ever learning how to deal with their own emotions. I know I have scratched my head about this for much of my own life.

I like that the article validates the need for distance from a person when they have been triggered into their bitterness.

Trees

[bee well]

Thanks for posting this Trees.

I too, have scratched my head about how many people waste precious life as they project bitterness onto the world. It's sad.

What you quoted from the article describes my MIL to a tee. She often deals with her bitterness very passive aggressively. Whether aggressively or passive agressively, when she is uncomfortable, she looks for someone to unload on (scapegoat).

Recently, during her phone calls, she has been relatively benign, which is a cue for me to not let the guard down too much.

I want to  be aware of this, and not fall into naive fantasy mode i.e. "fawning" just because she is "being nice." At the same time I do not want to be excessively hypervigilant.

To put it another way, I've learned that while it's best to have a civil relationship with a few bitter individuals who I cannot completely avoid, they have not automatically earned my warmth and trust just because they are "having a good day." (Usually having a "good day" means, unfortunately, they are just unloading the bitterness elsewhere.)

What you said in your post validates my idea that when we decide to assert ourselves with these bitter individuals, it is, at best, because that's what we need. Not because we hope to change the outcome of the bitter person.

This leads to thoughts about how so many of us have had to mourn/are mourning loss of spontaneity due to ab use by bitter PDs (necessarily many of us spend quite some time learning how to protect ourselves, often at the cost of spontaneity.) Any thoughts about this?

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Bee Well,

What an important question for us to consider.

For sure I am right there with you and others who have had to mourn the loss of spontaneity in the past. It simply wasn't safe / possible to act out of the healthy, spontaneous self when we were in the presence of narcissists. We know all too well what they will do when they find out we are trying to live our own lives (emotionally).

I truly hope others share about this if they so desire.

Where I am at - I am aware of what was lost, and I am aware of the complicated path 'back' to the healthy self. A place where one can play and be spontaneous, as one might have been as a child - when away from their narc parents. However, the recovery of playfulness leads to quite a question mark for me as of today. I was shaped into a serious child by the need to survive the childhood I had, and so spontaneous expressions of self seem like foreign experiences in a lot of ways. Letting out the inner child so she can play is much easier said than done when we get to midlife. At least that is what I'm going through.

All too often, the joy of playing at life, is met with the judgemental eyes of some passerby. I feel a strong desire to protect myself from anyone's judgemental gaze at this point. And so the question becomes, where to practice something as precious and vulnerable as spontaneity? I know that those judgements are projections - they fear the self who feels safe enough to 'play', and try to kill it in others with their judgemental gaze or their projection of bitterness. I know I have mourned not only for my loss, but theirs as well. And I know they will never know what I have mourned for them.

I imagine meeting a small child who has not yet had a chance to play. How would we approach this child and help them? Would we take them to an amusement park on day one, and expect them to know how to engage and enjoy themselves and have spontaneous joy? Or would we be gentle about it, wise and patient, letting that inner desire for play come out by virtue of feeling safe and ready. I guess this is where some of us are at too. Inside there is a child who wants to learn how to play, and we are the ones who have to teach. Like with any good teaching of small children - we must have patience with our inner child and celebrate small steps in the right direction.

Thoughts?

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees (Hi All :=))

Thank you for your patience, I  veer off topic in my responses at times. Thanks too, Trees,  for sharing your thoughts about mourning spontaneity. It really is a complicated path back to the healthy self, and that's what we are doing, going back. I've only recenly realized this, and even though I know reparenting a lifetime endeavour, I am still processing that its a long haul deal.

It's true that letting the Inner Child out to play is a challenge in middle age, and discerning when to do so is also hard, and especially when we weren't able to develop those skills growing up in uPD households.  Getting back out in group social settings I too have noticed some people and their judgemental gazes. I think those people are unhappy and don't like it when other people smile or have fun. Wow, how sad that is! ..Some of us never learned as children how to approach those types in groups. I don't remember any real discussions about that as I grew up. Like a lot of you, I'm still learning to remind myself to not let those people determine my days. (I sometimes want to go running in to play, then get intimidated or overwhelmed and then retreat back into hypervigilance.)

Going back to the discussion about bitterness, I've sometimes observed "bitterish appearing" children that have that "internalized" gaze. I don't think they use it purposefully towards their peers, but I have seen it...I would agree that some of the elderly uPDs people are dealing with on these boards started developing that way of looking at the world at home quite early on, brought it into in the playground and carried on from there (makes sense that it would take a lot of time to get so bitter, there's a whole lot of bitterness going on.)

You write: "I imagine meeting a small child who has not yet had a chance to play. How would we approach this child and help them? Would we take them to an amusement park on day one, and expect them to know how to engage and enjoy themselves and have spontaneous joy? Or would we be gentle about it, wise and patient, letting that inner desire for play come out by virtue of feeling safe and ready."

I do think its a good idea to be " be gentle about it, wise and patient, letting that inner desire for play come out by virtue of feeling safe and ready." Again, it's not easy to do what our parents didn't do, and accept that we are taking on a job that wasn't ours to begin with.

I'm making baby steps, learning to talk to myself in a gentle way as I reparent myself, and just to let the feelings come up when they may.  I don't know if I will ever be ready to go into the full on "original pain" Inner Child sessions that I've recenly learned about. As the "Crappy Childhood Fairy" said in the video about regulating emotions (I'm pretty sure it was you Trees who posted it), some of us have enough feelings to deal with as it is. (No disrespect to those who need some help bringing out the pain. A lot of us need that help after so much stuffing.) So I think that working on the Inner Child work is something that a lot of us may want to taylor to our needs, like any other healing tools...

I wonder how many of us (at any age) find they need to be careful about pacing Inner Child (and/or Mirror) work. I look forward to hearing more about the Inner Child topic, on this thread or possibly around the boards.

[Rosa Rugosa]

All too often, the joy of playing at life, is met with the judgemental eyes of some passerby. I feel a strong desire to protect myself from anyone's judgemental gaze at this point. And so the question becomes, where to practice something as precious and vulnerable as spontaneity? I know that those judgements are projections - they fear the self who feels safe enough to 'play', and try to kill it in others with their judgemental gaze or their projection of bitterness. I know I have mourned not only for my loss, but theirs as well. And I know they will never know what I have mourned for them.

I don't know if this is relevant, if I'm taking the 'where to practice' too literally.

I live pretty remote, sometimes I can go weeks without seeing anyone other than my cohabiting partner and dog. None can see our place from the nearest road. Everyone calls ahead because of where we live. I could spend my life naked, dancing to loud music, being silly and doing whatever play might look like for someone in their 30s. I don't or can't or won't.

So it's all in me. No-one can see me to judge me, yet I don't know how to let go. Sometimes I hear a childhood memory of my Sister's and Mother's voices, telling me I'm showing off and attention seeking. Or that I'm too old play and should grow up. Or that I can't dance and look ridiculous. Or I'm embarrassing them. Just all the endless criticisms I took on and kept. It might not be a memory of their voice anymore, maybe it has morphed into my own now.

On the bitter topic. The article said 'they may feel better because they made you feel worse'. I am the younger sister of someone maybe uNPD, I am sure I saw this. As children my Sister might cry or rage, if she hurt me physically or emotionally it seemed to soothe her. When we were young she would smile when she could see I was hurt or sad too. As she grew older she hid the smile and enjoyment. She now has a creepily similar set of facial expressions to my uNPD mother. Both very bitter people.

[bee well]

Hi Rosa, Hi Trees,

[/quote]

I don't know if this is relevant, if I'm taking the 'where to practice' too literally.

I live pretty remote, sometimes I can go weeks without seeing anyone other than my cohabiting partner and dog. None can see our place from the nearest road. Everyone calls ahead because of where we live. I could spend my life naked, dancing to loud music, being silly and doing whatever play might look like for someone in their 30s. I don't or can't or won't.

So it's all in me. No-one can see me to judge me, yet I don't know how to let go. Sometimes I hear a childhood memory of my Sister's and Mother's voices, telling me I'm showing off and attention seeking. Or that I'm too old play and should grow up. Or that I can't dance and look ridiculous. Or I'm embarrassing them. Just all the endless criticisms I took on and kept. It might not be a memory of their voice anymore, maybe it has morphed into my own now.


[/quote]

I think what you say is very relevant- the voices of bitter people (who unfortunately are often uPD caretakers) can unfortunately morph into that Inner Critic Voice in our head.

It's a large undertaking, but this can be reduced. Pete Walker talks a lot obout this in his book "CPTSD from Surviving to Thriving."

You say you don't know how to let go. I'd wager it It took a very long time for that voice to grow and so it probably going to take a long time to get it down to a dull roar. Talking about it here and looking for information is a good start.

You wrote that you live in a remote place: I don't know if you feel comfortable about it, but a silver lining to that is you might be able to verbalize and do things "out loud"--sing, yell, scream, smash tincans, ecc, to express your anger (if you feel you need to do that.)

Knowing, and perhaps reveling in that we can do whatever we want on our territory (within ethical and legal limits of course) is sort of a way we can mentally thumb our noses at "our uPDs....

[mustard_seed]

That's something I hadn't articulated before, but feel: mourning the loss of spontaneity. Hypervigilance, guardedness and armor have become such strong coping mechanisms for me too, like so many others here.

One thing that helps me is being around children. My DH and I spend time with another couple who have 3 kids, all under 10 years old. I don't really enjoy the adult interactions, much, TBH, but I try for my husband. During one particularly awkward grown-up conversation, one of the kids asked me to get on the trampoline with them and I happily took the escape route and ended up having SO much fun. The kids loved having an adult on the trampoline because it made them bounce higher and I burned off some of my anxious energy and felt more relaxed. Of course I was worried about being judged by the adults, but over time the parents have asked me to spend more and more time with them because the kids often ask for me to come over

I also like to read children's fantasy books to reconnect to that part of myself. I escaped into books as a child and really liked Madeline L'Engle and the Harry Potter series, e.g.

Other ideas: coloring, play-doh, paints.

I love this discussion--inner child work definitely feels healing and important to me, too.

Edited to add: Maybe this isn't true of all children, but I think what's healing about kids is that they're not bitter and judgmental and all of that yet, for the most part. They're much more in-the-moment and focused on essence and how people make them feel, rather than appearances and grown-up ideas of how people should be. So connecting with children, for me, has helped me to access that energy.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hey Mustard_seed!

Good to see you here.

I think that what you describe here, is what I have thought of as 'post-traumatic growth'. I have cringed at that phrase when I read it in most articles, because I don't like when articles over-simplify the process of healing. By contrast - what you wrote, is what I think of when I think about true post-traumatic growth. I love all the ideas and examples you shared.

I agree with you, children are much more in the moment than most adults are. I have had to think long and hard about how I show up around adults these days, when I want to recover that spontaneity and joy. Other adults may not be willing or able to follow me there - children are looking to play, whereas a lot of adults (with trauma histories or not) might not be 'there' for that anymore. Trying to make other adults let go and be more in the moment is too hard in my opinion. I get sad that so many adults have lost their ability to play and be spontaneous.

The adults who are aging into more and more bitterness, really make me feel drained. The more I heal, the less I want to be around them.

Years ago I joined a group with hopes this would be 'fun'. But the other adults there, and especially the ones in charge, were not about it. There was the guardedness and armor that you wrote about - and the leaders (of course) were quite narcissistic (because of course, they are drawn to those sorts of social groups where they can boss people around). I think I stayed in that group for over a year - desperately hoping that the events would eventually become FUN not STRESSFUL! Then I pulled back and moved on with my life, once I had tried my best to 'have fun' at these events and didn't.

Now I think about how to show up in that sort of group in the future, if I ever venture to do so again. I'm very reluctant at the moment to join any new groups- I fear there will be some bitter adults there who 'wet blanket' the attempts of others to just enjoy themselves. I'm guarding myself against dealing with new strangers and their bitter ways. I realize this prevents me from meeting new people though.

I am glad you have found a way to enjoy fun times, and that you've got people in your life who value your connections to their kids. That is awesome!

Trees

[mustard_seed]

Hey there Trees Good to see you too. I found my way here by searching the forum for "Surviving to Thriving" funnily enough.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with bitter people and with narcissistic types in groups that were supposed to be fun. The article described bitterness as a mix of disappointment, anger, and sadness, which it does seem like some people seem to collect as they age. That bit in the article about how bitter people offload their emotions onto others made sense too. It's the cynical remark, when you're trying to be lighthearted. Or the sarcastic comment, that goes on the record in our culture as witty and edgy, but really has the effect of squashing someone else's joy. Whether consciously or not. And I think sometimes it really IS conscious. I've been around people who *hated* to see anyone who was happy for "no reason" because it made them feel worse. So they would actively engage in mean comments to bring the happy person down a peg. To avoid seeing something that brought them pain.

It's not about you--it's their pain. It's no reflection of you, except, maybe, to say that they wish they had what you have. They resent you, or envy you or whatever. Don't let them dim your light. "Go where you're celebrated, not merely tolerated," as they say around the internets.

And it IS draining, because of what it does to one's emotions to be around that negativity. It can take a lot of bandwidth to process it, and to keep it from disrupting your own inner equilibrium. And your energy is precious and does not need to be squandered in this way. So I'm glad you are trusting yourself and protecting yourself. You are such a light here on the forum and I'm sure elsewhere in your life and keeping that strong is important for you AND others. So let the bitter ones and controlling ones be what they will be. As we say here in the Southern US, "Bless its poor little heart." But then... keep moving on your path.

Also I hope my story about the kids didn't sound rosier than it is. My husband and I are still gravitating to narcissistic types. Not full-blown PDs. But, you know, people with some level of emotional dysfunction that we tend to try to step in and regulate, heal, help, because we're both "fixer" empathic types. So... there is definitely some dysfunction and I'm navigating it OK--some days are better than others. But the kids have been a bright spot and for me a clue about where I might want to go next on my path. Volunteering? Having a child? Not sure. But the childlike energy just feels healing. So, yes, please don't read that as, "I've got connection figured out," because I definitely don't. Which I'm sure you know, having responded to my other recent posts

Love this thread though--great food for thought
MustardSeed

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Mustard Seed,

This is in my opinion the best use of the internet!...Because I also saw that meme "go where you are celebrated not tolerated" this week and I loved it! It really stayed with me as it relates to what we are talking about here. Loved seeing you share it here! Yes!

For sure I get that you are finding some joy with that connection with the kids but that its not all figured out. I get that! Honestly I could see myself volunteering in a space with children eventually - when I feel I have that energy to give again, because of the same reasons you've written about.

Children are not bitter - plus they really benefit from positive experiences where we can encourage them to play and just be children. I think that survivors can really offer that sort of thing because we have the insights on how important those experiences truly are. We want to encourage that creativity and play - "colour outside the lines and laugh well" is what I would encourage in children. They really benefit from feeling seen and heard.  And they are often much better at spontaneity than we adults are!!

I think with most adults I've met - its just too late to be honest. They are invested in their bitterness and there is nothing I'm going to be able to do to 'fix' things that they actually would need to fix.

I loved what you wrote about being an empathic fixer type. Empathic fixer types unite! lol. I've done a lot of reading and thinking so I could teach myself how to live as an empathic fixer type - it really is a skill on it's own!!

I like the saying you shared too from the South - it sounds like sound advice "Bless them and move on" sort of wisdom.

It has been sobering to realize I have spent much of my adult life, buying into the fantasy that my empathic ways, can impact on people in a positive manner. But I have had to practice recognizing that with adults - especially adults who are middle age or older, they really need to be invested in their own health. Being bitter isn't good for them, but they are the ones who have to change it. It would be like if they went to the doctor to get health advice and the doctor says "you should be walking 3 times a day". It is still up to that patient to actually do it. The doctor can't 'make' them change their ways if they don't want to take up walking or whatever health practice being advised.

People who are bitter have to want to change. They need to want it. Us wanting it for them, it is hard actually.

The dynamic with empaths is a complex one I think. Some people "want" us to fix them, and then resent us for trying. I've met so many adults who don't have a real handle on their 'parts', if we use internal family systems theory (IFS), to think about how there are these unmet needs and inside us, is a system that is split up into various parts. The bitter part, the angry part, the yearning part, the immature part, the part that wants to play, the inner child, the younger part, the older part...etc. As an empathic person I have tried to validate and make those parts feel heard and seen (in others) and it has been really hard to realize that it doesn't lead to a good place. First they feel good feeling seen, and eventually, when we start to hope they will become less bitter, (because now we've validated them), they remain passive and they don't take charge of their bitterness - then the next stage is that they now resent that we want them to be less bitter.

(I realize I now sound bitter, writing about their bitterness....I had to learn, that people do not change unless they really really want to. As is so common with many of us here, I have a long history of trying to change people who didn't want to change. It didn't make me bitter, but it made me aware that being an empathic type, I tried to change people who didn't want to change).

I really appreciate this forum because people are coming here to grow and love themselves better and I am all for that. I've had too many experiences IRL where the bitter person remains bitter, not matter what song and dance I did to try to help them...

I can't validate the things they are not willing to recognize in themselves. I can't rescue them from their bitterness. These were hard won lessons. Many nights I felt lost because I had no idea how to truly protect myself from the bitterness of others. It took a lot of work to get here - as I have written about, even therapy can only go so far in terms of explaining to empaths, how to really thrive in a culture with so much narcissism and bitterness. A community where we can discuss our own experiences with bitter people, narcissistic people and PD's is so helpful.

I totally agree with you - it is their pain coming up, in the worst way, when they can't even handle other people being happy. The last few years, I have had to accept that people don't need to be full blown PDs for them to be problematic for me to befriend. I think this is why the article on bitterness is helpful , even if someone is not a PD, once we have come through a lot of trauma from PDs, we may not want to deal with "garden variety bitterness" in people either.

I am right there with you - it is hard to figure out next steps in our own lives. Some of the paths we go down lead to a dead end or we have to walk back to see where we want to go next. We don't always have the opportunities we wish we did (hello 2 years of a lot of upheaval in people's lives that we all just dealt with!). I realized a while ago, how important it would be for me to ensure I did not become the container for people to dump all their anxiety about the pandemic - it is too draining, and SO easy because it was / is on people's minds.

As an empath I was used to asking people "how are you doing?" and actually holding space for all their (legitimate) anxiety / anger/ bitterness / unprocessed grief. Then I realized I can't keep doing that to myself. Perfect strangers will open up to me if I let them. Do you find this too? I feel for them, but I have to keep teaching myself how to live in the world where there is just so much going on for other people, and not to take it all on anymore.

Thankfully, I *think* I'm getting better at this aspect of self-care. One day at a time!

Trees

[mustard_seed]

Trees--so much of what you wrote resonates with me, per usual. It's such a relief, because I don't have people I can talk to IRL about this stuff. This IS such a great use of the internet

It has been sobering to realize I have spent much of my adult life, buying into the fantasy that my empathic ways, can impact on people in a positive manner.

People who are bitter have to want to change. They need to want it. Us wanting it for them, it is hard actually.

Some people "want" us to fix them, and then resent us for trying.

^^^Oh my gosh yes. And it's hard because empathy is truly important for healthy relationships, right? So it feels very natural and healthy, to give what feels like the basis of true love--attention, acceptance, affirmation (I'm pulling from the work of David Richo's "How to be an adult in relationships" book here). There's nothing pathological about that. But the thing is... it has to be mutual. We have to also receive benefit from these relationships, or else they're one-sided and exhausting.

It sounds like the people you've tried to help with their bitterness have expected you to fix it and then resented you when you couldn't make it all better for them. And I absolutely agree with you--they have to want to change themselves. We can help others, but we can't do the work FOR them.

It took a lot of work to get here - as I have written about, even therapy can only go so far in terms of explaining to empaths, how to really thrive in a culture with so much narcissism and bitterness. A community where we can discuss our own experiences with bitter people, narcissistic people and PD's is so helpful.

I totally agree with you - it is their pain coming up, in the worst way, when they can't even handle other people being happy. The last few years, I have had to accept that people don't need to be full blown PDs for them to be problematic for me to befriend. I think this is why the article on bitterness is helpful , even if someone is not a PD, once we have come through a lot of trauma from PDs, we may not want to deal with "garden variety bitterness" in people either.

I agree. I think there is a lot of garden variety bitterness and low-grade narcissism afoot. I think it's even worse after the pandemic--I mean just look at the mental health crisis. Clearly it brought some stuff to the surface for people.

I think when we have history with PD abuse and trauma, we just pick up on unhealthy behaviors more. Maybe it's the hypervigilance of CPTSD-type symptoms. Or just basic pattern recognition. And maybe just some really wise part of the Self that notices problematic traits in people... as we're is trying to heal and grow past those old patterns. To take actions that create energy, rather than deplete it.

Perfect strangers will open up to me if I let them. Do you find this too? I feel for them, but I have to keep teaching myself how to live in the world where there is just so much going on for other people, and not to take it all on anymore.

YES. Continually learning this too. "I didn't cause this, I can't cure it" is becoming a mantra for me when I'm feeling that pull to jump in and get involved emotionally with something that isn't mine and I don't have the bandwidth for. Also the "bless it and move on" -- I do say a prayer, "May all beings know peace" and then try to set myself free from others' drama. Easier some days than others! And yes--one day at at time for SURE.

~MustardSeed

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Mustard seed,

Yes to all you wrote there! I just saw some research online at Pub Med that looked at whether trauma survivors have more empathy. I mean, duh. It does appear that a lot of us do. We are adept at picking up on subtle changes. I saw someone on social media describe this as well recently - that we learned how to do this early in life. And that as adults, we may pick up on the change in someone's mood even before they do.

That is pretty crazy to think about, but also resonates.

You put it really well - a lot of stuff has probably come to the surface for people this last while. Those of us with skills / gifts / information / education on FOG and FOG related topics are going to understand some of it when we see it - it just stands to reason. We've trained our eye for it in a lot of ways. The way an expert painter can detect characteristics in a painting that the average Joe wont even notice.

I think it is a real art to learn how to protect our own energy, while also being connected to the world around us in a way that keeps those boundaries that keep us safe. I like that here on the forum we are so good at supporting each other in sharing our experiences and how when we 'mess up' we didn't really mess up, we just stumbled a bit. And stumbling is totally part of the journey.

Bitter people are hard for me to be around. They seem quick to judge people and situations as 'bad' or 'good'. But learning and stumbling is necessary if we want to grow - it isn't about who is good and who is bad at recovering, its about knowing you tried your best at the time, and you're always a work in progress.

It blows my mind how quickly people have been to judge me and others, for simply being an adult who is still learning and stumbling with boundaries at times.

In re-reading the article, I like the section where they wrote about how bitter people tend to blame others a lot. It makes sense that as we heal and recover, we have less desire to placate the bitter people around us. We realize we have moved on, we don't blame ourselves for stumbling when we 'mess up' and we don't need people around us who rush to judge or blame us while we work so hard on healing.

I hope that in the future, there are more adults who know how to support survivors of narc abuse, and working on their bitterness would be a good start! That mantra you wrote - "I didn't cause this - I can't cure it" is a hard one for me to practice sometimes too! I want people to learn how to support us better, and I know it is not my job to change them if they are bitter.

Trees

[easterncappy]

I feel like that article described both of my parents, but especially my dad. He had this habit that I always found really embarrassing, he'd answer the phone and when asked "How are you?" he'd start going on this uber-sarcastic "I'm just FANTASTIC! Everything is WONDERFUL! Couldn't be better! Just so GREAT!" rant. He either didn't know or didn't care that it made people uncomfortable. He'd often complain and complain and he's get angry if you told him that the complaining was excessive or uncalled for. "What, so I'm not even allowed to complain a little?". He was convinced that life had treated him so poorly and that he had such terrible luck that really, everyone else is a bad person for thinking he's too bitter and mean. In his eyes, he deserved to be even more bitter and mean.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi easterncappy,

Yeah, it is sad but people give up on actually relating to others, and they are just doing what they want. It is very telling when someone acts like that from the get go - they don't care if the other person is nice or not, they just have their way. It is really important that we understand how impersonal it is. Like you said, he did this before the other person could even express themselves. I have learned to see this type of behaviour as their 'wall'. To me it is the sign of a lot of unprocessed stuff - they are not willing to look at their own life in a self-aware way.

Trees

[Boat Babe]

I feel like that article described both of my parents, but especially my dad. He had this habit that I always found really embarrassing, he'd answer the phone and when asked "How are you?" he'd start going on this uber-sarcastic "I'm just FANTASTIC! Everything is WONDERFUL! Couldn't be better! Just so GREAT!" rant. He either didn't know or didn't care that it made people uncomfortable. He'd often complain and complain and he's get angry if you told him that the complaining was excessive or uncalled for. "What, so I'm not even allowed to complain a little?". He was convinced that life had treated him so poorly and that he had such terrible luck that really, everyone else is a bad person for thinking he's too bitter and mean. In his eyes, he deserved to be even more bitter and mean.

Then they wonder why they're alone in their later years.

I am my single patent mother's only child and have been her trauma dumping, complaining, negativity toilet from childhood. I'm now quite boundaries around this but it was exhausting and debilitating for years. I finally had an Out of the FOG moment around this and pointed this out to her calmly and kindly. She looked at me incredulously and said "Well who else have I got to complain to?"

Boundaries are the only thing that work.

[littlelimabean]

Thank you so much for posting this!!!

I moved away from my toxic household to  another person's house. I had no idea why I felt so awful. I thought it was me. I would bend over backwards, lend more help, clean more, laugh more, joke more, etc., to cheer up the individual and to create a safe space for myself.

But, I couldn't understand the negativity. She would often say "I need to let off steam.", "I am sorry for beating you up today (verbally)"

It was too much and I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't place it.

Thank you for this article. I understand now. It fits to the cent.