Living our values, it might fail

[treesgrowslowly]

I tried, really hard, to live my values. I am a thoughtful, patient person. And I've been run over by other people, my entire life.

My future goal is to find a way out of that cycle. Most people are just not going to care, about anything except whatever they want at that time. They are not looking for more real, more authentic relationships. They just are not.

There are too many narcissistic people in the world now. I feel like if I live my values, I get used.

I am always happy when I hear that others who have gotten Out of the FOG, have found new relationships where people actually care for them in a healthy way. We all deserve that. It's very very hard to find people who actually want a good friendship. A lot of us live with crumbs and it is very sad.

I am very grateful for the people on the forum here.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Hi Trees!

I surely can appreciate your comments on values and others. With regard to self-appreciation of my values while still living in and participating in society with others, I am proactively working on a mentality that it is only myself that will 100% appreciate my own values, regardless of others opinions or attempts to manipulate/use me.  Therefore it is only my own self-opinion that is truly needed, and im counting zero % on others to appreciate my values. 

So now, if I believe another person is trying to use my time, effort or resources to get what they desire, i try to recognize it in mindfulness and high-radar awareness and not allow, as best possible, to let myself be used any longer.  Ive spent my previous decades getting used, but I'm done.  I do not desire to allow others to be responsible for any percentage of my self-satisfaction. 

So as you stated, so many others are users and manipulators, and therefore, if I now expect that to be true, I can remove them from my self-appreciating % equation, but still reside and participate in society and in functions with others. My focus is therefore now on the actions i am participating in, and not on the participation or reactions of others.  I also therefore proactively choose to participate in areas where I do not depend on other random people for my success and/or enjoyment/appreciation.  I say no to those activities. 

But, i will participate in certain joint-activities only with my proven, trustworthy, non-user friends and family. Therefore again, i will be my own appreciator and self-protector, regardless of other's inability to provide for themselves or attempt to feed from me. 

I hope you can find some new satisfaction and appreciation to the fullest going forward.   And again, very much appreciate you and others here on Out of the FOG that get it!

SoT

[Jolie40]

recently, I was dumped by a leader out of a women's group
she gave no reason & I felt really hurt as I'd been in the group for months

however, I turned around & joined a couple new groups
the leaders are super nice & have to admit, the new groups seem better than the group that dumped me!
took my daughter to one group last night where she participated & enjoyed it
so now we have something new to do together

don't give up!
there are nice people out there; keep looking

[SonofThunder]

don't give up!
there are nice people out there; keep looking

 
Agree! 

SoT

[NarcKiddo]

I'm actually having to consider the opposite side of that coin after discussions with my therapist.

Mu uNPD mother taught me not to trust anyone. Explicitly taught me, save that she always said the only people who could be trusted were my FOO. Well, it soon became pretty obvious to me that if they were the people I could trust the most I was in a pretty bad position.

So I actually don't trust anyone, because if they are not 100% reliable I label them as untrustworthy. The minute they confirm my suspicions I drop them. It does not matter if the mistake is unintentional.

My therapist has said that if my mother had been "good enough" I would have realised that there is a "good enough". People are always going to make mistakes and let us down in some way or other but she asked me to consider whether it might be worth my accepting that and enjoying what I can out of other relationships; forgiving others when they step out of line. I mean, obviously a PD or someone only wanting to use or hurt me is not someone I want to be with, but I am really trying to wrap my head around the "good enough" concept. It makes intellectual sense but emotionally I am nowhere near that yet. Relying on me, myself and I feels safe, but it can be a pretty lonely place to be.

[bee well]

Hi Trees, HI All,

Lately I have been thinking about some things related to this post.

I think we can never fail when we stay true to our values, even if some others might not share them. There are just too many thoughtless and narcissistic people are there.

I agree with Jolie 40 when she wrote, "there are nice people out there, don't give up!" There are still some good ones out there, and we can see evidence of this on these boards.

As for me, while I want to make friends, I find it tiring and at times discouraging. It's hard to find individuals to connect with on many levels. Lately I just want to stay home with DH, as he is familiar.

I agree with what Son of Thunder suggested. That is, when we are feeling drained it's a good idea to evaluate how much we are willing to give before we are feeling depleted and used. That's not easy to do when we want to give freely and authentically, but I also think we need to be mindful of this, or we will continue to get run over, and at times, to be left feeling discouraged.

As NarcKiddo wrote, there is the "other side of the coin." I can relate to that too. The concept of "good enough" in friendship (and elsewhere), as NarcKiddo's therapist proposed, is a valid one. But it's also true that when we have been burned, it's hard to get past the trust issues. I think in any case that when we have something in our head, if we persist in accepting it as something we want for ourselves, eventually we might get past residual feelings that keep us what could possibly be an overly self-protective mode.

Since it's hard to find friends that we can completely open up to, perhaps some of us could find it useful  to have different social interactions with different types of connections. For example, we might be able to have deep conversations here about our families, and difficulties and or abuse we have experienced. In a group we can share common interests. And with micro interactions, maybe a smile and a few polite words at the check out counter, or a conversation with a nice enough person in a line at the post, for example, we can experience a little bit of relational healing here and  there.

This is a complicated subject for a lot of us. I wonder if anyone has more to say about this.

Trees, it sounds like you needed a hug when you wrote this. Here's one:

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello all,

Thank you so much for your replies. Yes Bee Well, I was having a hard day and needed a hug. Thank you!

Jolie40, I am glad you found a new group to join. That is great! Thanks for sharing about it.

NarcKiddo, boy can I relate to this. Both the 'good enough' mother lacking when we needed it, and the therapist's view of it. In my experience, what a lot of my therapists lacked was an understanding of flashbacks. And so here again, I am so grateful for Pete Walker's work.

Pete Walker's explanation of how flashbacks must be addressed during recovery is golden.

How I think of it: A typical, healthy non-disordered adult comes into our life, and we befriend them. Things are going along well. One day they make plans with us as usual.  And then something comes up for them (say, their relative gets sick and needs them). They cancel the plan with us. Cognitively, we know this is a 'good enough' type person. They are not a narc, they are not after us, they are not a user, etc etc etc... But emotionally, we know we have been dropped / re-scheduled, because their family member needed them.

Said scenario, has happened to me, and I agree with the therapists, had I had 'good enough' parenting, I would not be triggered by said scenario.

Even after years of therapy, and recognizing the above as a PTSD trigger into feeling hurt / ignored / unimportant, I still can't stop my nervous system from wanting to label said person "bad". Someone to drop, so that they don't trigger me again.

It is hell, trying to stay in remission from PTSD after narc abuse. The above is (for me) one of the ways in which it feels like a descent into my own personal hell.

The person is 'good enough' but my own nervous system has no real capacity to manage these 'normal' behaviours. Healthy adults are people who have lives, commitments, jobs, etc.. they are not always there for us, they are not always reliable, they are not always trustworthy. My mind knows this - my brain does not.

My brain, housing the emotional alarm system, is tired. Tired of making sense of 'random people' as SonofThunder so aptly pointed out! People are randomly in and out of our lives, and after narc abuse, we're looking for more than good enough - I wanted some of the people in my life to show up in much more reliable, considerate ways than they were able to.

Once I learned that there is a real difference between the friend who re-schedules with us, and says "so sorry I had to cancel our plans! I am looking forward to seeing you next week instead!" and someone who just says "Oh hey trees I can't come out tonight after all", I learned that the latter, is not a friend. They are an acquaintance. They see us when it works out. The rest of the time, they are not around. The former, is a friend, someone who likes seeing us, and will make the time to do so.

People without trauma, people who got "good enough" parenting, can tolerate a lot more of the acquaintance stuff that I can. I just can't tolerate it when people only see me when it works out, because in reality that means they see me a few times a year. That's not a friendship for me. It might be for others though. No judgement.

I wonder narcKiddo, if you have found that when people 'step out of line' as you say, it is often with someone who cares less about the friendship than you do? When we're looking for a friend, a person who just wants to be our acquaintance, is not going to invest much time with us. If we invest energy in caring about them, getting to know them, treating them really well, we are setting ourselves up for heartache. They are not going to stop us from treating them well - but they are not going to do much (if anything) to connect.

I met someone recently, and they expressed a desire to see me again in a few months. But they didn't ever send any sort of "hey how's it going Trees" texts after we met. In their mind I guess we just meet up twice a year and not talk in between? This is 'good enough' in their other friendships. Sometimes I imagine all the 'good enough's' going out and enjoying life without me. How's that for a sign that I grew up without enough of vitamin "good enough". Sigh....

Let's say you join a local book club, and at the meeting, you start talking to someone you really connect with. Same sense of humour, great conversation, a person you really enjoyed spending time with. This feels like a gift from the heavens. This seems like a real potential new friend who shares your values. Then you find out they are moving out of the country next week, and to a place with no internet. You'll never see them again. Not their fault. Just a random piece of bad luck.

OR: same event, same person, but you find out they are moving onto your street next week. Over the next 3 months, you meet up for walks and enjoy talking about the book club selections together. Random good luck.

Life is random. That person in front of us at the supermarket could be someone we'd really get along well with. But does anyone start a life-long friendship after meeting in the express lane buying apples?

Those of us who want new friendships with the kind, 'good enough' folks, are at a huge disadvantage because we have to randomly meet said people, and they have to randomly be in a place in their life where they have time to get to know us better.

On top of that, the 'good enough' folks are going to trigger us (according to Pete Walker, and crappy childhood fairy and many other astute thinkers on this topic). Unlike those who have some experience with healthy relational experiences, our own nervous system did not get enough 'good enough'. If "good enough" were a vitamin, we grew up without enough of it. Actual vitamin deficiencies are much easier to address than relational ones.

What Son of Thunder describes - I believe this can get us out of the misery of trying to get the 'good enough' friends to be the answer to our pain. I'm working on it! lol. It's so hard....

As Son of Thunder's post reminds me, people are not going to come into our lives all ready and able to help us when we are triggered and into a flashback (thanks to their 'out of line' behaviour).

Like you said NarcKiddo, even when it is unintentional, it still bothers us. I would say most of the things people have done that triggered me, was unintentional. Doesn't mean the trigger was imagined. And it doesn't mean that person can understand that their behaviour triggered us. Only people educated on narc abuse recovery, will understand about triggers and recovery work.

Thanks so much for sharing your words everyone. It means a lot. Some weeks are harder than others. This was a hard week.

Trees

[treesgrowslowly]

Son of Thunder - I have a question for you.

I love what you shared here about the 100%. I'm working to get there too. I am far far from 100% today.

(in my previous post I forgot to add that I disagree with therapists who tell us to 'get back out there' before we are ready to take on the world of adult avoidance. It is unrealistic to hope that no one triggers us, or that the 'nice' people will never trigger us. That if they were nicer, we would not ever flashback to feeling dismissed or misunderstood. Nice people will trigger us, and that is hard).

We need more therapists who understand that the triggers are real. And in a lot of cases, what we're actually doing is making sure that flaky people do not get too far into our personal lives - because nice people can be flaky and they are not good enough for us - if we are working so hard to recover from narc abuse.

I think the goal is much closer to what SoT describes. If we find ways to enjoy life's experiences, without depending on others, then we won't have a life of managing their gaffs and our reactions to them, in the first place. 

(SoT please clarify if I am not understanding this correctly!).

We will have things to do that we 100% can enjoy, without being dependent on others.

SoT, did you have a process here you can elaborate on? Like for example, when I see someone enjoying an activity, let's say painting classes. When I go to try this, I end up feeling sad that I can't enjoy this with a friend. So I'm able to enjoy MAYBE 5% of the experience, because 95% of me (if I'm really honest with myself) is caught up in feeling upset and dependent on others, there's very little 'self-satisfaction' as I try to "enjoy" the paint class. In my head and heart - its all about grieving that I don't have a friend to attend paint class with (as an example).

Honestly now that I think about it, I cannot recall the last time I could sustain my own enjoyment of something with 100% self-satisfaction for very long. Even at events that should have been 100% enjoyable to me, I wanted others to enjoy it with me - I was dependent. Wow, lightbulb moment.

Thank you all,

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Hi Trees,

So glad to read you are having lightbulb moments!  I fully understand what you write regarding triggers.  I get triggered very easy and rightly so after many decades living in manipulation and abuse.  I understand I get triggered, and as you well stated, those triggers (although experiencing them is a pain) act as a red-flag preventative. So in ways, im thankful for them, as long as I can learn and boundary-up, which may be that I must end an activity or a relationship with someone. 

Regarding myself, i consider myself an introvert (recharge alone) and also a moderate HSP (Highly Sensitive Person/Dr Elaine Aron).  I want to insert those two as they may be different for you but they play a role with me.  I also want to possibly better explain regarding what I wrote from the earlier post:

"....that it is only myself that will 100% appreciate my own values"

I am my own best friend. I have a few other people in my life who are great friends, but I care-about, and care-for myself better than any other human cares for me.  I have developed (possibly assisted in necessity because of long-term traumas) a way to have a joyful relationship with myself.  I will sometimes talk to myself, both silently and sometimes audibly, like there is another person standing in the room.  I have developed a sense of mindfulness over the many decades; to almost mentally stand outside myself and look back in.  With that, I can find great joy in solo activities because I always have ME!

Therefore, i greatly choose, appreciate, respect and honor my own values, and if anyone else doesn't, i don't care!  I will use my own values and my high-radar HSP awareness as a way to accurately guide me going forward (now Out of the FOG!) and choose activities that suit my values, skills and interests, and I can co-exist in activities even if I'm my only friend in the activity, although others are present (like your painting class example).

To answer your question, there is not a process I follow(ed). Growing up in the situation I was in, and in a very rural setting, I was alone often and many times purposefully alone to get away from my uNPDf.  Honestly, my mentality regarding activities, even in adulthood, is similar to when I was a child.  I have not lost or shelved my childhood imagination and my ability to enjoy and/or motivate myself in daydreaming scenarios, many of which I am now turning into actual scenarios. 

When you were a child, do you recall playing alone with toys and visualizing scenarios with the toys, or being inside or outside alone, pretending YOU were in a live-action scenario?  If so, do you remember how that felt mentally/emotionally?  If so, my guess is you probably did not feel alone.  If you didn't experience these things, then we may just be simply wired differently, both being equally fantastic. 

If you didn't experience this, are you able, as an adult, to get mentally immersed in a good book or movie?  If so, imo its the same thing that occurred in my childhood play scenarios.  Imo, its this type of solo best-friending that assists me in "100% appreciating my own values". 

There was a certain joy and satisfaction that was aided by my being solo many times as a child.  Sometimes if another child joined in, my own scenario-script was then altered by the other child inserting his/her own script into the mix and it could get very frustrating. 🤣.  As an adult now, i purposefully choose activities (even among other adults) where we dont 'mix-scripts'.  For example i will not participate in team sports, but solo sports yes.  If i was to take a painting class, i would make sure we each had our own canvas, paints and brushes, not a 'class-project' 😉.  Therefore im very picky in all endeavors i choose to participate, so that it well feeds my ability to find it rewarding.  I can physically be in the same location as other adults, but mentally I came with myself; and I will remain my own BEST friend.

Now, finding a like-minded, like-valued, kind person in the activity with me, is like whip-cream added onto my already delicious sundae!  But without any whip-cream, my sundae is still delicious by itself.  If nobody in the class shares my values, i dont care, because I share my own values.  If others try to assert their unwanted values on me, or try to disrespect mine, i have the toolbox handy, and will make sure im not 'playing' with them and if it goes from bad to worse, im taking me (and therefore my best friend 😂) and departing. 

Frankly, i think mindfulness techniques in adult therapeutic endeavors, are in ways, relearning what we may have once had as children; that ability to mentally step outside ourselves and using all the senses, evaluate the scenarios of what came, what is, what went, and what may be happening next. 

Again, no real process, but I hope that somehow describes my 100% ( = fully) comment.

SoT

[NarcKiddo]

I wonder narcKiddo, if you have found that when people 'step out of line' as you say, it is often with someone who cares less about the friendship than you do? When we're looking for a friend, a person who just wants to be our acquaintance, is not going to invest much time with us. If we invest energy in caring about them, getting to know them, treating them really well, we are setting ourselves up for heartache. They are not going to stop us from treating them well - but they are not going to do much (if anything) to connect.
...
Like you said NarcKiddo, even when it is unintentional, it still bothers us. I would say most of the things people have done that triggered me, was unintentional. Doesn't mean the trigger was imagined. And it doesn't mean that person can understand that their behaviour triggered us. Only people educated on narc abuse recovery, will understand about triggers and recovery work.

It is grim, trees. I've only fairly recently started therapy but the lightbulbs are going off all over the place and that's good, I think.

I don't necessarily find that those who step out of line more readily are those who care less about the friendship than me. Sadly, this is because I don't allow myself to care about any friendship all that much. Since my standard emotional position is that nobody can be trusted, I just bide my time and wait for people to prove they can't be trusted. In some ways it has been a relief when they do. I am saved from feeling the need to pursue any deeper intimacy because they have "proved" what I always "knew". I am able to get superficial enjoyment from spending time with other people and have simply squashed any desire I might have for anything more meaningful. This really does sometimes make me wonder if I am a narc too.

I am probably an awful "friend" to have. I can talk the talk, and there are people I do care about. In fact I care quite a lot about everyone I choose to spend time with, even acquaintances, and I genuinely want them to be well and happy. I do make an effort to get to know people I classify as friends and treat them well. I don't want to hurt them. So from that point of view I can "do" friendship. What I cannot do is let them in to my emotional world. I cannot give them a chance to fail in a way that might wound me deeply. As you say, most people won't understand about narc recovery and triggers, and it is not fair to put that on them, in my view. They will just end up walking on eggshells wondering what might trigger me and that's not fair on them. So they are not getting any emotional intimacy from me.

You are absolutely right that the triggers are real, even if not intended. Even my therapist has recently managed to trigger me and I have yet to have that out with her. The fact I did not sack her on the spot and run away is progress. I guess.

It's all such a mess. I'm sorry you are having a hard week. Here's hoping the next one is better.

[Jolie40]

like SOT, I'm an introvert so don't mind doing things alone
I really haven't had a friend (to do things with) since before I was married & I went to a gym to work out with a friend/co-worker

since I've been married, I've taken all kinds of classes like painting & drawing by myself
friends I've had since marriage wouldn't be interested in going to classes I like OR wouldn't want to spend the money

I wish trees that you could go & enjoy activities by yourself
surely every time you do a hobby, you don't invite someone to your house to do it with you?

I do believe the ability to take classes & go places by oneself is rewarding
I've traveled by myself too, since marriage.....I find travel easier by myself &  can follow my own plans

[pianissimo]

Hi treesgrowslowly

To me, it feels like there is a lot of inner-child related feelings in what you describe about situations in which people say "hello" and "goodbye". Perhaps this is a trigger too, to be afraid of the moment you will say "good bye" to someone you just met and liked. I have these kinds of worries about people in my life. Even if they aren't close, I dread the moment when a rift opens between me and them, and that moment looks inevitable to me. I think, another sign these are inner-child related feelings is, everything feels too personal, it cuts through you, and it feels like all that's because you are doing something wrong. And, in your case, I had this feeling you are blaming your PTSD trigger (and, so yourself?) for feeling disconnected. I sense this thought "if I didn't have PTSD triggers, I could enjoy simple interactions more". In the moment, these feelings and thoughts feel very real and true, and they might be the hell themselves. In that hell, we blame ourselves for feeling disconnected. We slip to the thought patterns that we aren't good enough, that we aren't content with good enough, we ask for more, we aren't "normal" like everybody else, who has none of the problems we seem to have, so why do we?...etc.

I noticed a similar inner child related perspective in your question about attending an activity without a friend. For me, the grief for not having a friend comes from the inner child (thus, trauma). The inner child thinks being alone=being wrong. So, in the past, I was inclined to take problems in social and hobby related activities as a proof I shouldn't attend them alone, and that me being alone signaled there is something wrong with me...etc. For me, that wound would get in the way of enjoying the activity.

Hope you feel better soon. If you have triggers, it's your right to take care of yourself and not feel bad about it. People can wait. You don't have to be understanding to anyone, good or bad, not enjoying simple interactions doesn't mean you are missing out anything significant. I think we also confuse being cross with people as being abusive to them. How you feel about your friend's cancellation of a meetup because of a sick relative is quite human. Having PTSD triggers doesn't mean what you are feeling is wrong, it means you need more love and caring in those situations 


Also, apologies if I read too much into your posts, I might have watched too many YouTube videos about childhood trauma.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi all,

Son of Thunder what you wrote there last week is very much food for thought for me right now. Thank you!!

I think that what Pianissimo wrote is tied to what I'm feeling.

As a child, I had lots of interests and I had what they called "a rich inner life" (wording often used for imaginative children, introverted children, creative children). There were only a few other kids my age who shared my interests...and guess what prevented us from being closer ?? Anyone, anyone?

...Of course, it was parental narcissism. Looking back now, I know I was so controlled by uNPDm as a kid - she actually actively intervened in my every attempts to make friends for myself.

So Pianissimo, thank you for what you wrote. Childhood trauma is confirmed - you nailed it. It can make my blood boil that early in life, when I met people who shared my interests, she was right there to disrupt any friendship I tried to make. And she never cared about what that would do to me. That's the legacy of parental narcissism. They did SO much damage!

Jolie40, that is awesome stuff. Glad to hear you enjoy travelling.

Coming back to what SoT wrote, I think there are practices I have that work really well in my life, and there are some areas where I'm not doing what works for me yet. Your writing has reminded me of this.

Years ago I joined a group that met weekly, and so after a while you get to know who the regulars are. There was one woman there, she was a regular. She attended, she did her own thing during the hour, and went home. She was verbal - acted like an extroverted type, but made zero effort to socialize with anyone. She seemed to really enjoy participating, in the sense that she was doing the activity while we did the activity, but she didn't do anything to chat or connect with any of us. She certainly made it clear she was not there to make any new friends. She didn't do anything that a normal person would do i.e. ask our name, chat during breaks, nope.

I remember feeling confused by her behaviours. Was she just another garden variety narc? If she was, shouldn't I, of all people, be very NOT confused by behaviours I had seen growing up? But I was confused, and maybe what I was confused by, wasn't her, but by my own emotions at having to 'deal' with her each week. Maybe in reality, I wished she would quit the group, so I would never have to see her again. Maybe the truth was that I never wanted to be around people like her again, and of course, that's not realistic. If we join a group activity, we're gonna meet people like her.

Not sure if she was a narc, but she reminded me of the narcs I knew. Like at one point I was at a store and saw her, she stood right next to me waiting to put in her order at the counter. She acted like I was a stranger. We had spent hours together in the same class activity and she wasn't "Oh Hi Trees nice to see you" nope. I kept waiting for her to be friendly. Nope. Just acted like she was the only one in the store.

Sometimes I ask myself if the truth is that I'll always be distracted by women like that lady from that group. That her behaviours so easily reminded me of the narcissism I grew up with, and I'll never enjoy social settings where someone is behaving like that.

SoT, if I understand you correctly, You've gotten to a place where there are social activities you can enjoy, and not be 'distracted' by people who are behaving 'badly' in the room. Not everyone who is self-absorbed is a narcissist  - but self-absorption will always remind me of the narcissism I saw as a child.

Trees

[pianissimo]

Years ago I joined a group that met weekly, and so after a while you get to know who the regulars are. There was one woman there, she was a regular. She attended, she did her own thing during the hour, and went home. She was verbal - acted like an extroverted type, but made zero effort to socialize with anyone. She seemed to really enjoy participating, in the sense that she was doing the activity while we did the activity, but she didn't do anything to chat or connect with any of us. She certainly made it clear she was not there to make any new friends. She didn't do anything that a normal person would do i.e. ask our name, chat during breaks, nope.

This reminded me of the time I attended a hobby class that lasted two weeks. There was this guy that I invited to something some people in the class and I were attending. It seemed like he thought I was coming on to him, and he treated me that way for the rest of the course. That triggered shame in me, and even greeting him became a big deal. But, I kept saying "Hi" to him, and being friendly to him, because I was also aware that the way I behaved was just polite. I thought if he was bothered with even that much, that was his problem. There were other people in the class I had become friends with, and they didn't seem to have an issue with me, which also validated me that I was doing OK. In the end, he seemed to have overcome his initial problem. I guess this is different than from your situation because he was somewhat sociable (not with me but others). But, for me, those kinds of people are triggering, and I view them as narcissistic. The woman you describe wouldn't bother me because her behaviour wouldn't make me feel bullied (especially if she is that way with everyone in the class).
P.S. I enjoyed the class despite that guy.

[NarcKiddo]

The thing is, trees, that we all bring our own experiences to the party. Maybe that woman was a narc. Or maybe she, too, had been touched by narcs and did not want to get close to anyone for fear of hurt. I think I might come across a bit like her, sometimes. It's not that I'm self-absorbed; it's that I keep myself aloof to prevent being hurt. Plus I don't really know how to "do" friendship in a normal way. I came across a little poem the other day that really resonated. It's called "Masks":
She had blue skin
And so did he.
He kept it hid
And so did she.
They searched for blue
Their whole life through,
Then passed right by -
And never knew.

[SonofThunder]

Hi again Trees.

You wrote: 

"....You've gotten to a place where there are social activities you can enjoy, and not be 'distracted' by people who are behaving 'badly' in the room. Not everyone who is self-absorbed is a narcissist  - but self-absorption will always remind me of the narcissism I saw as a child."

You also wrote:

"As a child, I had lots of interests and I had what they called "a rich inner life" (wording often used for imaginative children, introverted children, creative children). There were only a few other kids my age who shared my interests...and guess what prevented us from being closer ?? Anyone, anyone?" 

I understand what you wrote about self-absorption = narcissism.  But, being an introvert or simply shy, can come across as negatively unsocial, and imo, that is where us introverts are marginalized in society.  Introversion is not about being social/unsocial, but rather HOW we recharge (alone or with others).  But most of society creates  'group' activities, like your painting class.  For example If you were a person who attended college/university, did the school promote incoming freshmen to find and join groups, suggesting that group activities were 'normal'.  Its sad imo, how introverts are marginalized in society.  Those of us who didn't 'group' were considered to be having a difficult emotional time 'connecting'.  Sometimes i (wrongly) joined a group to avoid be labeled as different. 

Yes, i can now (because i fully know about and love myself for who i am... haha traumatized and all!) participate in a group activity and keep all other participants in the 'individual' (not group) category.  I know we are all individuals, simply corralled into the same physical space, to learn and practice an interest.  Some may be extroverts and some introverts....but ALL equal in our value.

*Imo, two true non-traumatized introverts can do their own thing in the same room without feeling any social tension. 

But im a traumatized (nurture) and also nature introvert, and so I am very high-radar with regard to others in the room. I have to purposefully tell myself not to snap-judge others motives based on my high-radar (hsp) feedback.  So necessary group activities for me, will create some tension based on my traumatized mind, but i will now purposefully feed my introversion while in the group, and stay focused on the fact that I am doing a solo activity in the same corral.  I purposefully do not choose 'team' activities/groups as I know it will be very emotionally difficult for me.

"Badly" is an interesting word choice and you put it in quotes, so you chose it specifically.  I fully recognize and accept that I am a traumatized person after many decades with PD's.  But i also know I am an introvert (recharge alone).  What if the other lady in the class is not behaving "badly" but is just an introvert wanting to be in society but respect and protect her introversion.  She may purposefully, in full self-control, take the class and do her private thing in her own same "rich-inner-life" as you did as a child.  What if her self-protective introverted manner kept her quiet in the same room (store) as you.  What if shes a traumatized, high-radar introvert like me? 

I have to accept that my trauma past, can greatly affect my radar, and I have to purposefully tell myself that I am high-radar, and let individuals just be themselves, and me focus on myself.  There surely have been times when the stars aligned and i found a friend who was a good match and they are very-very few and very-very close.  With those friends, i am very talkative and social and mostly very deep in our subject matter. 

SoT

[LemonLime]

Thank you all for the discussion on this subject.  It resonates with me.

I've coincindentally been reading lately about an interesting (and not all that rare) condition called prosopagnosia.  It's the inability to recognize faces.  It reminds me that if someone I've met doesn't seem to recognize me, they may have that condition.  I need to remind myself of that.....that there may be any number of reasons why someone is seeming distant.   Those reasons may have something to do with me, or they may not.

[treesgrowslowly]

That's a good point lemonlime. I wonder how common that condition is.

I guess it bothered me that there's so many people like that lady I saw at the store who didn't seem to care. There's no more "oh hey trees nice to see you" when you bump into someone at the store.

I'm at the point where I just want to do my own thing too. Just find out which activities I enjoy (if any) and enjoy them.

Trees

[JustKeepTrying]

First - treesgrowslowly is an awesome handle.  Love it.

Second, I'm in coda.  Some of it resonates - some does not - but it is one tool in my toolbox.  I am an introvert and also very HSP - really really so.  Crowds can trigger me with the bombardment of emotion.  So in keeping with my value of peaceful life, yet a desire for connection, I am selective in where I go and who with and when.  Even if it's to grocery I am mindful of when crowds are low etc.  But when I do meet someone I might know - like your lady from class - I meet them where they are.  Maybe she just isn't able to be social - so be it.  Framing it like that - removing myself from the situation that I can't control - makes my life so much more peaceful.

Third, authenticity.  Such a now overused word but still valid today.  I went on a date.  A real chance to meet a narc; open myself up to issues and all of it.  But my therapist framed it differently - she said to look at it like this - if you go authentic - telling the truth and revealing only what you want to reveal - just being true to your values - and it doesn't work - then it's not to be and that is better to know now.  I think of it like alignment - we are not aligned therefore should not be together.  So I will walk next to a person for the time that we are aligned - when I see it change or a red flag - I end it.  Romantic or friends - and I try hard not look back.  This may sound harsh but my holding on does not serve them either.

It's like that with friends as well.  I don't tolerate small talk very well - never have.  Just don't really get it.  So I don't mesh with a lot of people who like surface stuff.  So many group things are just surface stuff and that bores me.  Therefore I have only a handful of really true friends.  Friends who I can not speak to for years and then one day out of the blue we get together and it's like time never passed.  Those are the friends that I know are ride or die.  I believe there are only a few in our lives and when you find them, enjoy them.

Then you have the people who only walk next to you for a short time and specific purpose.  And that's ok too.

Great thought provoking discussion.  Regardless, stick to your values.  Don't loose those.  They are define you and you are worth it.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi JustKeepTrying,

Thanks for your message here.

This week I'm reminding myself that so many people are stressed now. They are coming at me from that place of stress. The year that the lady at the class distracted me, I was more in the FOG than I am today. Looking back at it I know that I was looking to others to be more present than they actually were. She was one of them. Each class she was just so focused on herself. It was majorly distracting.

When I think about going back to a class like that now, years later, I feel quite differently about whether I want to be around others. I think the HSP traits are what explain a lot of it for me as well. I am quite social when I am not around women who behave like narcs. Whether they are a narc or not, when so much of their behaviour matches up, I just want to ignore it - but the whole point of the class is to be doing this activity socially. Otherwise we could do it at home on our own, and no one could bother us. I agree with you, once I see red flags, I don't stick around to see how bad it will get anymore. Red flags are real!

Trees