People and their view

[Ladymm]

Hi all,

my friend's mother passed away unexpectedly and I guess it is a shock for her. I spoke to her a few days after this event. The first thing she said to me was, "you shouldn't distance from your mother and resent her" like this is what one regrets when a mother dies. I feel like a b**c* to write this cos she is mourning, but this is really what I didn't need to hear from her. I feel like all I ever told her about my mother was misunderstood. I know she is maybe overly emotional and I acknowledge that she feels like this, but I don't feel like I am the person to whom this advice should be said.

Also for a series of events,now I am living in an apartment of my parents' property and can't sadly go no contact .
This same friend said once ah maybe you should just take the apartment and just repaint it, it is nice.

I am considering no contact with my mother and of course the idea your mother dies when you decided to  cut her out makes you feel all kind of unpleasant stuff. It is against nature, no one has an innate impulse to cut the family but sometimes you must do it. This sad conclusion comes from you when you see there is no family just the big  Nothing. I have been also  to therapy for 7 years.


But maybe I lack empathy, I am strict, demanding I don't know. Even though my friend had a tragic loss, I felt angry for what she said and then I felt like a change of heart. Like that it is pointless to explain your personal things to someone who apparently listens to you but you then see can't understand, reacts like this etc.

Your thoughts? Thank you.

[xredshoesx]

i completely get it

i haven't spoken a single word.  a. single.word. with my mother since i was 22.  i'm 49.

i've heard all the 'but she's your mo-ther' variations and like you it makes me feel angry and misunderstood.  at the point i am at now if i am really annoyed with the person who is preaching to me, i tell them the 100% why i stopped speaking with her- because she was complicit in the death of one of my father's other children.  that usually shuts them up- but the point is, why should we have to lay out a fact that bare, that horrid, that horrific, to be justified in our choice.

take care of you today, and all days, first.  if trying to be there for your friend is making it harder for you to do so, it's ok to pull back so that her grief doesn't become a trigger for you and make it harder for you to deal with your complicated relationship with your own mother.   there's so many more nuances than people realize with us and how we are with our parents and how incredibly complex the relationship is regardless of the level of contact you have with a PD/ uPD parent-

[Amadahy]

I'm sorry, ladymm.  This is horribly triggering because, of course, we do not go no contact or think ill of someone without good reason and to suggest such puts us into a tailspin of not trusting our own senses.  I agree with xredshoesx about pulling back for a time if that seems reasonable to you.  I have a dear, wonderful friend who lost her mother when she was fifteen and she cannot understand why I feel the way I feel about my Nmom.  We finally had to agree to not talk about it at all, so you certainly are not alone.  Our society doesn't quite know what to do with mothers who don't mother well.    Take good care.

[poetandpunk]

What's amazing to me about your friend's response is the assumption that you WANT to have a strained relationship, that you WANT to go NC. None of us do - we'd love reconciliation, healthy family dynamics, etc.

I've heard many crappy comments from people over my 7 years of going NC. People think they are being wise or emotionally enlightened when they suggest I have a relationship with my parents before it's too late. And a few times I came back with the comment, 'would you say that to a victim of physical violence? Sexual violence? No. Just because this isn't physical (anymore), it's just as damaging, it is that extreme, which is why I've had such an extreme response.'

I'm sorry your friend in her heightened state of grief is a bit blind to you. I'd take her comment with a huge grain of salt. That's just my take.

[Ladymm]

Thank you for your replies, I found the insight I needed in all of them!

It is hard to come to terms with the fact that besides places like this forum and a therapy office it is hard to find people who can understand the situation of a child of narcissists. And thank god for these, but one would cherish a bit more empathy and tact  in everyday life also for what emotional abuse is.

[GettingOOTF]

I am sorry your friend said such a thoughtless and hurtful thing to you. Our pain is not an excuse to hurt others.

It is really triggering when we have our experiences denied by others, particularly when we grew up with a PD parent who did this to us as children.

I have found that as I have cleared FOG I noticed how I had surrounded myself with unsupportive and even abusive people. They didn't seem so as they were better than what I was used to.

We all have limitations. Your friend has shown you hers. One of my best friends is incapable of discussing my family situation as it's so different from hers. I know she cares about me but in this area she can't be who I need her to be. I don't discuss this topic with her.  Honestly I only discuss my family here and in therapy and I stopped therapy so I only discuss it here. It's a difficult subject for a lot of people.

One of the things I've come to see is that most people mean well when they say or do things. The thing for me was identifying these people and the abusive people in my life. Over time I have removed a lot of my old friends from my life and worked hard on recognizing what others are and aren't capable of giving me. My circle is a lot smaller but my relationships more fulfilling as I try not to have expectations of others, I try to accept them for who they are.

[Ladymm]

GettingOOTF,

thank you for your helpful reply and kind words.

I think that yes, the lesson I have to take from what happened with my friend is that people have limitations. I guess this is a lesson in learning also that "good enough" is a pretty good standard to have with people and try somehow to connect with people and remember who I am. The unpleasant bonding mechanism of enmeshment can be really said goodbye to at this point, which is uplifting.

[Hilltop]

Hi Ladymm.  I have recently been reading The Anger Trap by Les Carter and there was a chapter in there that sort of relates to what you are saying with your friend.  He speaks about if someone says something to you and you get defensive to just stop and first of all notice that what was said has caused a reaction in you.  Then rather than taking the comment personally, look at the other person and ask them about what they said "What makes you say that" or "what are your thoughts on that".  Then listen.  A lot of the time people are saying things from their own perspective, from something that is actually going on in their own life, projection.  It may or may not be relevant to you.

If you were to ask your friend perhaps a lot of what she is saying is coming from her recent loss of her own mother.  Understanding that what is said really isn't about you, its easier to then ask yourself if what is said is something you need to consider or if you feel it doesn't relate to you personally you can let the comment go.  In other words, know yourself well enough and trust yourself so that you believe you are making the right choices for yourself.  if she does come up with something about you, you can listen and then decide for yourself whether you feel that is accurate of yourself or not.  The key is being able to trust yourself and believe in yourself.  Being able to slow down can put a different perspective on the conversation and diffuse the anger.

He also talks about finding the root causes for the initial reaction as well, if you are feeling angry then working out what is underneath that.  Does it come back to prior pain of being dismissed or invalidated or something else.  Anger in our life is telling us we have wounds we need to heal.

He also talks about looking at how we live our lives, our core beliefs, in being able to be assertive but in a loving and kind way, showing empathy to others even when empathy doesn't appear to be shown to us.  Having empathy for your friend and being able to say to her that you understand she misses her mother and the time they had together, if your friend desperately misses that time then perhaps she cannot understand your position at the moment and that's ok.

Whilst I don't think some of what is in the book relates to dealing with someone with NPD I think there are useful tools for dealing with anger and responding to people such as your friend that are probably well meaning but perhaps not giving good advice for you.  I really haven't done it justice in any way, there is so much information in the book but perhaps it may be a useful read. 

[Ladymm]

Hilltop,

thank you for your reply!

I also tried to think as you described, and I really found out it is just my friend's perspective. What bothers me in this istance is that she was very sincere in her grief and I finally understood that she probably can't understand me, because also in the past she said things like what i mentioned about the apartment. You talk and talk from your heart to somebody, and they listen, and then at unexpected moments  they say something out of place. But I feel she can't feel me, maybe I will have to protect my heart from her now. Also my fear is that now she has an experience more than me - the passing of a mother - so I will see her as an "authority" who knows more than me and if she will be saying me things like don't distance yourself from your mother etc. more and more, I will feel it like  a stab in my heart.

I don't know I try to listen to people and give them advice and I never understood where it is so difficult to tune in experiences which are not your own. But I feel that people really can't understand my pain. I see people from all kinds of families with problems stereotypically worse than mine and  their parents still mean something to them. While with my apparently perfect family, for me there is just one impulse: run.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

I've had similar experiences with friends and acquaintances. It sucks. Sorry you are dealing with this.

What I have discovered is that unless someone has direct personal experience with PDs (and really come to grips with it) or extensive training in psychology there's just no way they can really appreciate the dynamics and stresses involved. Without that background it is too foreign to grasp.

My wife and I both grew up with uNPD fathers and codependent/enabling mothers and we are our own primary supports for PD stuff. Other than two of my very closest friends, I don't discuss my family PD dynamics with anyone else unless they volunteer their own family PD experiences.

I think of it as a kind of super secret society--unless someone knows the special handshake, they can't handle the truth.

[Hepatica]

Dear Ladymm,

I understand your pain. And You are the Authority on it. You lived it for years and years and years. What we experienced is like living in a country where there was unrest, instability and even war. Many people cannot understand how that is when that is a reality for people. Most of our friends have lived peaceful, bountiful, loving lives and they cannot break down an average, every day of a person who lives in a place of unrest for their entire childhood.

I lived in a house of pain. There was covert and overt violence against me, for eighteen years or so. I felt afraid so many times.

It didn't hit me until i read Pete Wise's book. How the brain is wired from birth in an atmosphere of stress.

All we want is peace. To be in relationship with a parent who has absolutely no self-reflection and worse, is sometimes getting supply from creating anxiety and drama, will not work for us to heal.

Your friend will never get this unless, perhaps she reads an amazing novel that gets through to her or sees a well done movie. I've yet to see one. It's time for us to create them, I think.

I understand your pain. Very well. I'm sorry your friend can't bridge that with you and hold your hand in it. It hurts. Few of my friends get it and I've felt so alone with these feelings of loss for years.

This forum helps and I'm very grateful for it.

[Hilltop]

Hey Ladymm  no one has authority over you, you are your own authority.  I wrote about the book because when you say you feel she can't feel you, I wonder if that is correct at the moment, her experiences are not your experiences and she may not be able to relate to your experiences.  Her relationship with her mother was different and now she is grieving, she simply may not be in a place of being able to hear and support and so I was trying to say that's ok.  She may not be able to give support at the moment but understand this is not about you, its about her.  Because she can't support you at the moment doesn't make your decision about your mother wrong in any way, if that makes sense.  So don't doubt yourself about how you feel.  I guess the book talks about this technique to try to lessen that anger when someone doesn't respond the way we need them to.

It is disappointing, I have a friend who is close to her mother and I don't talk about my issues with my family because she just can't understand.  I have tried to mention a couple of things but she really doesn't get it, to her you talk about issues and everything is fine, sometimes yeah I feel a little alone with this issue because people with normal families simply cannot grasp how it can't be fixed or a solution found.  I find that if people haven't dealt with PD's then they sometimes don't get it because the normal rules don't apply.  It is frustrating.  However my friend is great in so many other ways so I love her for that and I am hoping that if you look at your friendship you see a lot of warmth in other areas and perhaps this may be one topic that needs to be put on hold with her for a while.  Healing is done from within however yes its disappointing when we want support from those around us and they don't get us.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

I think your subject line on this post is very good. It is just people and their view. It does not have to be yours. It is not a universal truth.  Your friend could be speaking out of grief right now, or perhaps she grew up with balanced parents and would probably be unable to fully grasp your experiences. I am sorry because it is hurtful to hear and seasoned with a bit of judgement too. It seems if someone did not grow up with such dynamics, they do not get the difficult choices that confront us. They can still be your friends, just maybe for this one topic the best support may be found in other places. It is still alright to do what you need for your own well being and you really do not need others to agree or understand. 

[Ladymm]

Thank you for all your replies

Also,I think this friendship is one of those from my pre "no codependence" era and i feel like it is a bit "too close".  I don't know. I have had this "this is too close" usually with ppl who see me as who see me as  their" only friend" or "one of my two daughters" "my grandchild", I feel they give me on a pedestal and then make me their emotional carer or something I have a hard time even putting into words but evidently dislike. I don't know. I have changed. I don't like to be around people who see me as carer in their difficult moment in life, my enmeshemnt red lights start to blast and say NO NO. Its almost like something I can't do, its like someone would ask me to touch a grasshopper and its a BIG NO for me.   Maybe if this wasn't this peculiar friend I would have just shrug off her comments and never opened this topic, but as it seems, we are enmeshed.

I feel lost in the sense that a part of me feels like it is not afraid any more to lose someone so the fear of abandonment is quieter, but in the other hand it is difficult to tailor the rules on who to have in your life and how to recognize them as non toxic. It is foreign territory. But what connects me to other ppl is same view, same disgrace, same something, I understand you blah blah..land then like u get lost in other ppl this is how you bond. As Placebo sing "Instant correlation sucks and breeds a pack of lies" and this lyrics is true, but what is the alternative?

[Fortuna]

Right now you're friend is hurting and has probably never truly understood your relationship with your mother. The fact is that most likely you would be distancing yourself from HER mother if she was yours. Let her know she had a wonderful mother that you would have liked to have. When she comes out of this she will hopefully remember that your mother and her mother are different. If she says to stop resenting your mother or stop distancing yourself from her, you can always tell her you would if she'd been more like her own mother. That allows her grief to be flipped back to a compliment towards her mom.