When to Involve the Abuser in Co-parenting

[atticusfinch]

Hello all,

My ex has recently insinuated himself in my local church congregation, even though it should be a safe place for me (he goes to a different congregation). I noticed today that my kids youth leaders all have his cell number and all seemed to think it was really important to invite him any time the kids are doing something. I am torn. On the one hand, I do think his involvement *can* be helpful to the kids, and I try to make sure he is invited to all major things. On the other hand, it is clear to me (especially since he just filed for sole legal custody), that he is trying to push me out of my own space, to isolate me socially (by talking badly about me to our kids' church leaders), and he's trying to set up a situation where he appears to be the "good" parent. I know how manipulative and abusive he is, but he has been especially aggressive about bad-mouthing me to our kids teachers, principal, and church leaders, and I can see it in their eyes-- that they see me in a bad light. I am the parent who is doing all the heavy lifting, which is especially hard considering that I'm working against the depression/anxiety from years of abuse, but I'm too busy to go around playing in his soap opera by telling other people my side of the story (which seems to have hurt me?). In other words, the fact that I'm doing all the hard work makes it so I don't have the time or energy he has to wage this sort of triangulated battle with him involving all our kids' caregivers. But it's incredibly hard to be made to feel like I'm this damaged, broken parent by people who otherwise don't know the whole story. Also, it's exhausting.

So my question is-- what is my duty to involve him in their activities? He is just taking it way too far and using it to abuse me.

[Rose1]

You have no duty. It's his job. So I'm going to tell you a story. When I first separated my girls were doing ballet. Ex took his pd mother to a couple of lessons and took centre stage as was their custom. Next thing I had the ballet teacher asking me if I could ask them to not come.
I said I had no control over it but suggested she talk to them about sitting near the back rather than front and centre. She didn't really want to confront them (must have got the vibes) but I think she did because sitting at the back wasn't part of the plan so they stopped coming. Like most things with the girls it was too hard for them as well.

So is he likely to mess his nest with his pd personality? Let him? You can't stop him but I bet he gets on their nerves. He's getting on mine already.

Only you know him well enough to known if he can sustain this stuff.

[Rose1]

I wonder if your congregation has a little chat to him about making sure he's meeting his obligations re child support. I.e. sufficient and on time as befits a Christian father, what the response would be? In the case of my ex you wouldn't have seen him for the dust cloud he left in his wake.

[hhaw]

IME the PDs can fool some of the people some of the time, but they can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Try to shift into observer mode, if you can, and view the situation without judgement. 
   There are likely advocates you haven't identified yet. 
Calm down. 
Breath. 
Find them. 

Judges don't care about gossiping hypochristian testimony,and would likely never hear it in a courtroom anyway.   Decide what you can effect, nad put your energy into that.  Don't waste your time on things you can't change.

Always remember to speak about the expd with compassion... he's a sick man, doing negative things that impact you and the children, and that's a very sad choice he's made.

BTW, why is the ex suing for custody.... I mean, what reason did it state as cause for bringing that suit?

Chin up.  Don't let him drive you over the bend where people can see or hear.

This too, shall pass.

[Penny Lane]

What does your parenting plan say as far as involving him in activities?

[lilyflower236]

I too have ruminated way too much about what people that my ex is in contact with think of me. I've only heard bits and snippets of his victim narrative (especially since I won the custody case last year and proved his wife's abuse of our son), but I can fill in the rest. Heck, he's said plenty of it to my face over the years — my mental instability, I can't dress or feed my child properly, I coached our child into lying that he was verbally and emotionally abused, I'm motivated by spite and jealousy of his wife (lol), how I strongly favor my child from my second marriage over our child — the list goes on and on.

So I would worry about what the people at my son's schools had heard from my ex and his wife. I'd be paranoid about people I'd talk to about my divorce because we live in a smallish town and I was never sure who was in their circle. I'd pick up my son and they'd be hanging out in the yard with their neighbors and it felt like those people would stare daggers at me. One of their neighbors even put something on fb about me!

I've always been really bad about believing people always think the worst about me, even before my divorce. It's called "mind reading" in CBT therapy, and it is a type of distorted thinking. The fact is, people are usually way more concerned about their own lives than the drama in yours. I've found resources online to help me combat this type of distorted thinking and I think I've gotten a bit better about it over the years.

Because the fact is what these people think of you has no bearing on what kind of parent you are. It never will.

Also, you may find that more people are sympathetic to you than you realize. My ex's wife has tried to badmouth me and create drama at both schools my son has been in. At both places the administrative staff could not stand her. One place banned her from coming in the classroom. The other school has always made sure to inform me of her actions whenever she tries to cause trouble. It's really nice. They'll do it in a really impartial way most of time but obviously in a way that's supportive, like "oh maybe you already know but (stepmom) has requested a meeting about (son) and will you be there? Oh you haven't heard, well I'm glad we told you!" My ex and his wife NEVER share my son's school photo proofs and order form with me if they get it first but the front desk ladies always know to contact me and give me a heads up if they see I haven't put in an order. Stuff like that :-) you probably have more allies than you know.

[Penny Lane]

Everything lilyflower says is so wise and spot on.

I especially like this:

I've always been really bad about believing people always think the worst about me, even before my divorce. It's called "mind reading" in CBT therapy, and it is a type of distorted thinking. The fact is, people are usually way more concerned about their own lives than the drama in yours. I've found resources online to help me combat this type of distorted thinking and I think I've gotten a bit better about it over the years.

DH used to think that BM was getting together with all the other moms at the school and trashing him. In part this was anxiety and in part it was based on her telling him she was doing it. It made him really nervous to reach out and schedule playdates or talk to other parents at events. In turn that made ME really nervous - if they all hate DH so much and love BM, what are they going to think about his girlfriend?

But as I went to more and more recitals, games, practices, etc, it became clear to me that she actually didn't even know most of the other parents. She usually doesn't show up to this stuff, when she does she's late and hungover anyway and not in a fit state to interact with other people. And in her time the kids often miss their activities anyway. DH was actually on much more friendly terms with most of the adults even then.  I think there is one other parent at the school, and maybe one or two other sets of parents that used to be their mutual friends, who she's badmouthed him to. But those are other parents that she drinks/parties with. So no big loss, she can go party with them and DH can make friends with the other responsible parents.

One thing I did suggest to DH is to think of it as a sort of PR campaign. Like you said, atticus, you don't want to go around badmouthing your ex. But what you can do is show up and be aggressively NOT like he says you are. He's trying to bully you out of the spaces where there are potential allies. If you think he's saying you're unstable, you're unfit, etc etc, you show up on time and act like a reasonable person, every time. You resolve disputes in a reasonable way. He can't compete with that because he doesn't know how to do that. One thing BM likes to say is that she's a poor struggling working single mom and her deadbeat ex won't contribute to anything - so he pays his half immediately, every time and makes it really clear that he wants to make sure the school (or whatever vendor) receives what he owes them. It'll eventually become clear to others who the problem is.

And another thing I suggested to DH is that he shouldn't try to hide BM's bad behavior for her. It's not that he should put it on display. But things like, if she tries to triangulate him with another person, the easiest solution for figuring things out is to forward that email right on to the other person and say, I wanted to make sure we were all looped in on this discussion! That sort of thing. He doesn't forward emails gratuitously, but sometimes it's the fastest way to get something done and he's not going to NOT do it just because she said something nasty in the email. If that makes sense.

Also, lilyflower, all this really sounds like projection to me:

Heck, he's said plenty of it to my face over the years — my mental instability, I can't dress or feed my child properly, I coached our child into lying that he was verbally and emotionally abused, I'm motivated by spite and jealousy of his wife (lol), how I strongly favor my child from my second marriage over our child — the list goes on and on.

[atticusfinch]

All,

Thank you so much for your helpful words. Generally, the last couple years I've made a deliberate choice to worry less about what my ex is doing or why he's upset at different points, because I think that suits the PD goals: keeping my attention focused on him. That said, he is highly educated and intelligent, no substance abuse problems that I know of, and extremely malicious and resentful/revengeful (and I know he is still fixated on all the ways he felt victimized by the divorce), and therefore I don't put it past him to spend hours/days slinking around behind the scenes to craft some master plan to take me down. Knowing his personality the way I do from the marriage, I can nearly guarantee that he filed for custody two days before my Master's program was about to start is his way of getting back at me for getting a surprise protective order almost exactly five years ago-- just because that is the way he thinks. (also, his filing itself goes against logic in so many ways)

Hhaw, re: his filing. He isn't asking for physical custody (we have five kiddos and I honestly don't think he can handle them by himself, as many of his weekends he goes to stay with relatives), but he is asking to make all the major school, medical decisions for the kids. Ie: I do all the hard work, he makes all the decisions (what is more NPD than that?  ) He is also filing to end my alimony. I may PM you with  more details! Some aspects of his filing are a complete joke-- and neither my attorney nor myself believes he stands a chance-- but I will still have to deal with all the legal mumbo jumbo, which I'm sure he'll draw out just to be a pain.

As for our decree, it simply says he has to be notified of major events. I try to send a weekly email, recently made a joint calendar with everything for the year on it, and I know he's on email lists for schools, etc. Also, ironically, I have encouraged the kids' church leaders to put him on text chains and emails because it is sometimes easier that way-- he gets the info directly and then if I forget to tell him, it's not as big of a deal.

The thing I guess I'm upset about in this instance is that when I moved in, I was finishing my basement in my new place-- some of it myself-- which ended up being a huge, consuming project, so I missed a lot of church the first couple months we lived here. In that brief time, he'd already met with my kids' leaders and poisoned the well. He is a mind-abuser as much as anything else, and was when we were married-- very determined to control people's ideas and perceptions almost above all else. I think he is also trying to triangulate me into feeling badly about myself-- by taking over things, he is essentially sending a message that I'm unfit/unable to get my kids to church, etc. I think he's also trying to make me feel guilty for divorcing him and to co-opt some of the male leaders in his favor.

[hhaw]

atticus:

I think your ex IS doing all you said, and perhaps more. 

::shrug::.

That's always going to be the case, I think.  It's his nature.  I wouldn't worry about the church thing, bc worry doesn't ever help, IME.  I'd talk to the kids program leaders about your move, and working on the basement by yourself, and you might find suggestions for asking for help THROUGH the church.  Retired parishioners, or help getting kids to church, etc.  I find that most people in churches have the right spirit, want to be helpful, and would enjoy opportunities to help, even if it's just to suggest where help can be found, kwim?

Don't assume everyone has been poisoned, for surely they have not.  Stay open to connection, and try not to let fear and resentment shut down possibility for connection as you can manage.

About the church leaders being poisoned... I'd truly consider changing churches rather than put up with being bullied by men in positions of authority OVER me and my children, if that turns out to be the case.  That's another kettle of fish, IME and abuse through the church isn't something I could tolerate at this point in  my life. 

The bad thing would be that the kids would have to get involved in new programs.  To offset that, I'd research it, and make sure there were comparable or better programs the kids could get excited about.  We'd like to keep the kid's routines as steady as possible, but we have to do what we have to do.  You could start fresh, and get it right, if that's the way you're looking at it.  Lots of churches out there, atticus. 

About PD filing for decision making powers.... I'd certainly ask my attorney to ask for your legal fees from PD.  He's not being reasonable, again, and I think you might be able to document that at this point?

I hate trial prep.  I hate going to court with PDs,  but the PDs don't give us the choice typically.  If you have to go, take a bite out of the ex's hide as you can. 

For me, forcing the PDs to pay my legal fees meant the end of the legal struggles, bc it was no longer a win for them when they could starve me out with legal fees, even when they lost the cases.

You've been in court quite a bit with your ex.  Has he done enough to show this Judge who he is, and what his actual goals are yet?  If not,  that day may come, or the Judge who SEES it might appear.   You had the TRO, and your ex has asked the court for things NOT in the childrens' best interests, but obviously focused on controlling YOU, right?

I really hate going back through records... it's daunting, and time consuming and takes our focus OFF  parenting, which is the worst of it, IME.  The thing is, if we do it well enough, we can end all future court battles, bc we did it right... in some cases.

Showing abuse, and showing the PD focus isn't on the children can be harder with really smart PDs, I know.  I hope you can make the most of PD's dragging you back to court.

::wishing atticus the best possible outcome in court this time::.






 

[Stepping lightly]

Hi Atticus,

I think most of us do feel like the PD is campaigning against us in a lot of social situations, and  a lot of the time it's true.  The part we don't know is how other people are reacting to it.  Some people will buy into it, but a lot of people won't.  You may not even know which camp everyone falls into, so maybe just assume they all get it and as others have replied, be the best person you can be and let the chips fall where they may.  I know I have become more attuned to PD behavior outside of our situation.  When a spouse starts badmouthing their partner- immediately a red flag goes up for me.  Some people like the drama that comes with the PD, but most of us don't want any part of it.

We've had a couple of situations that we knew BM was campaigning against DH.  It was really uncomfortable.  One was school- and we felt the way the teachers responded to DH just emphasized to us that they were buying what BM was selling.  But the tricky part of it, we now suspect they knew they had to be really careful.  BM was all over everyone, and super nasty about DH...and that will generally ring some alarms for teachers.  They've seen so many families come and go, we aren't the first with a PD parent involved who is vying for custody.  We didn't know though, and DH agonized over every encounter- we realized things were not as they seemed when we requested school records prior to court.  The only pieces of communication filed, were damning to BM.  People were covering themselves.

[athene1399]

SO often worries about what BM is saying to SD's teachers and doctors. I try to reassure him not to worry, because her true colors usually show. She badmouths both her ex's to play the victim and I think part of it is she thinks they badmouth her when in reality SO ( and probably her other exH) try to pretend she doesn't exist most of the time. People have the opinion of BM being crazy because she digs that grave herself. She tells her sob story to strangers and they feel bad for her until something happens and her true colors show (usually via rage over nothing). The only time we ran into problems was when she kept changing SD's address to her own address at the primary doctor. SO called in to have it changed back and the receptionist refused. Then he asked if he needed to fax over the custody agreement to prove he was the one with custody. Then she complied.

I think the other part of the smear campaign is to blow out a smokescreen so that others don't realize that in reality the PD parents are the ones with the problem, who generally cause the problems.  I know it's hard, but try not to let your ex's negativity affect you. It will just suck you into a black hole where you doubt everything and everyone (and what they think of you). BM sucks up to me, so I haven't experienced it first hand. But I do get upset when she tells every who listens that she's a struggling single mother of three with deadbeat ex's who don't help her (when she has custody of none of the kids). She's actually behind on her child support for exH #1. And SO and I sometimes eat tater tots for dinner so we can afford the advance classes for SD because BM doesn't chip in...ever. I do sometimes let it eat away at me (and then I vent like i just did  ). But I know my friends and the people who matter know the truth about the situation. That does make me feel better. Maybe SD will one day get it too.

IMO opinion, stay at the church for a bit and put out your feelers. If people don't want to take all evidence and find out the person you truly are, that's there loss. And if that's the case, find a new church.  But I wouldn't assume everyone there doesn't like you until you know for sure. I can't remember who's idea it was, but I agree it's a good idea to share with the church members about your renovations. You will be able to get some advice/help and they'll know why you weren't there recently.

[atticusfinch]

I am so incredibly grateful for your replies and support! This is a very wise forum and I admire all of you and the ways you're coping.

I really, really appreciate it.

Love,

atticus