Tonight Im going to speak to Dad and lay down the law

[p123]

Over the past few months I've had:-

- Many times I've had it implied that I'm lying and making excuses to not visit him (basically he believes everything my brother says - latest being you get covid test result on the spot not day or two later - where'd he get that from???)

- Constant barrage of trying to get me to visit at weekends when I've told him I can't.

- The "guilt trip". Forgetting that I've got my own family. I can explain to him the things I've got on but 2 days later he's back to normal.

- The "groceries" trick where he deliberately ensures he needs something to guarantee a visit. Its annoying and manipulative.

- The lies and made up symptoms when he's "so ill" when I know he's not.

- Finally and this is a difficult one. He's got loads of money. He used to give me the odd £50 "for the kids". I wish I'd refused years ago because it looks like its always been a bribe to get me to visit. When I put my foot down a year ago it all stopped and now hes giving a LOT of money to golden child brother who does what he wants. I don't want or need the money but he's not "punishing" me like this and getting away with it.

Wish me luck!

[SonofThunder]

Over the past few months I've had:-

- Many times I've had it implied that I'm lying and making excuses to not visit him (basically he believes everything my brother says - latest being you get covid test result on the spot not day or two later - where'd he get that from???)

- Constant barrage of trying to get me to visit at weekends when I've told him I can't.

- The "guilt trip". Forgetting that I've got my own family. I can explain to him the things I've got on but 2 days later he's back to normal.

- The "groceries" trick where he deliberately ensures he needs something to guarantee a visit. Its annoying and manipulative.

- The lies and made up symptoms when he's "so ill" when I know he's not.

- Finally and this is a difficult one. He's got loads of money. He used to give me the odd £50 "for the kids". I wish I'd refused years ago because it looks like its always been a bribe to get me to visit. When I put my foot down a year ago it all stopped and now hes giving a LOT of money to golden child brother who does what he wants. I don't want or need the money but he's not "punishing" me like this and getting away with it.

Wish me luck!

Hello p123,

Here's wishing you good luck, if your dad is a PD, as I have had zero success is trying to alter another adults actions or reactions by "laying down the law".  I have though, had great success in protecting myself by creating proper boundaries for myself, that help to protect me from the actions/reactions of another adult. 

Therefore, even though I wished you luck, as you asked, I prefer to wish you skill, in designing and implementing successful self-protecting boundaries on your own actions and reactions.   I point you to the Out of the FOG toolbox of boundaries, MC (medium chill), noJADE, the 51% rule and the 50% rule (to keep us balanced so we don't 'punish' vs protect ourselves). 

SoT

[p123]

Over the past few months I've had:-

- Many times I've had it implied that I'm lying and making excuses to not visit him (basically he believes everything my brother says - latest being you get covid test result on the spot not day or two later - where'd he get that from???)

- Constant barrage of trying to get me to visit at weekends when I've told him I can't.

- The "guilt trip". Forgetting that I've got my own family. I can explain to him the things I've got on but 2 days later he's back to normal.

- The "groceries" trick where he deliberately ensures he needs something to guarantee a visit. Its annoying and manipulative.

- The lies and made up symptoms when he's "so ill" when I know he's not.

- Finally and this is a difficult one. He's got loads of money. He used to give me the odd £50 "for the kids". I wish I'd refused years ago because it looks like its always been a bribe to get me to visit. When I put my foot down a year ago it all stopped and now hes giving a LOT of money to golden child brother who does what he wants. I don't want or need the money but he's not "punishing" me like this and getting away with it.

Wish me luck!

Hello p123,

Here's wishing you good luck, if your dad is a PD, as I have had zero success is trying to alter another adults actions or reactions by "laying down the law".  I have though, had great success in protecting myself by creating proper boundaries for myself, that help to protect me from the actions/reactions of another adult. 

Therefore, even though I wished you luck, as you asked, I prefer to wish you skill, in designing and implementing successful self-protecting boundaries on your own actions and reactions.   I point you to the Out of the FOG toolbox of boundaries, MC (medium chill), noJADE, the 51% rule and the 50% rule (to keep us balanced so we don't 'punish' vs protect ourselves). 

SoT

Yeh know what you mean - hes not going to change like that.

BUT there's literally a herd of elephants in the room. He does something, it gets forgotten about and swept under the carpet. He does something and he must know I've worked out what he's doing and the same. He's VERY clever with it - he always manages to back off to stop it getting into an argument.

I think in the past I've let it go because I didn't have the energy. But a lot of these things are no causing me a lot of grief..... I've got to say it to him now and not let him sweep the latest under the carpet.

If needs be I've got to bring this up and cause the argument. If it ends in NC it does.....

[Andeza]

You have to decide what the threshold for that is going to be. Preferably before you actually walk in there and have the conversation.

[Leonor]

Hi p123,

You know, setting boundaries isn't about you laying down the law for your dad.

It's about you laying down the law for *you*:

"Look, me, I am only going to talk to dad once a week. If he calls in between those times, I will let the call go to voicemail."

"Me, I am going to let go of the thought that I might get a lot of money from my dad. It's his money, not mine, and if he brings it up I will say, Hmm and change the subject."

"From now on, me, I will respond to his health complaints with, 'Sounds like something to discuss with the doctor,' full stop."

P123, to have a big showdown with your dad is not laying down the law. It's just doing exactly what he wants at you and your family's expense. You're giving him all manner of attention and emotion and drama, and energy that rightly belongs to your spouse and children.

What difference does it make if you have children if you are first and foremost your father's child?

What difference does it make if you have a spouse but your primary emotional relationship is with your parent?

What difference does it make that you have a successful career but the boss of your life is really your dad?

At some point, p123, you are going to have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want to change yourself in regards to your father? Not "change your father," which is impossible. Not "change the relationship," which is an outcome, not a cause. Change yourself. Change *you.*

[SonofThunder]

Over the past few months I've had:-

- Many times I've had it implied that I'm lying and making excuses to not visit him (basically he believes everything my brother says - latest being you get covid test result on the spot not day or two later - where'd he get that from???)

- Constant barrage of trying to get me to visit at weekends when I've told him I can't.

- The "guilt trip". Forgetting that I've got my own family. I can explain to him the things I've got on but 2 days later he's back to normal.

- The "groceries" trick where he deliberately ensures he needs something to guarantee a visit. Its annoying and manipulative.

- The lies and made up symptoms when he's "so ill" when I know he's not.

- Finally and this is a difficult one. He's got loads of money. He used to give me the odd £50 "for the kids". I wish I'd refused years ago because it looks like its always been a bribe to get me to visit. When I put my foot down a year ago it all stopped and now hes giving a LOT of money to golden child brother who does what he wants. I don't want or need the money but he's not "punishing" me like this and getting away with it.

Wish me luck!

Hello p123,

Here's wishing you good luck, if your dad is a PD, as I have had zero success is trying to alter another adults actions or reactions by "laying down the law".  I have though, had great success in protecting myself by creating proper boundaries for myself, that help to protect me from the actions/reactions of another adult. 

Therefore, even though I wished you luck, as you asked, I prefer to wish you skill, in designing and implementing successful self-protecting boundaries on your own actions and reactions.   I point you to the Out of the FOG toolbox of boundaries, MC (medium chill), noJADE, the 51% rule and the 50% rule (to keep us balanced so we don't 'punish' vs protect ourselves). 

SoT

Yeh know what you mean - hes not going to change like that.

BUT there's literally a herd of elephants in the room. He does something, it gets forgotten about and swept under the carpet. He does something and he must know I've worked out what he's doing and the same. He's VERY clever with it - he always manages to back off to stop it getting into an argument.

I think in the past I've let it go because I didn't have the energy. But a lot of these things are no causing me a lot of grief..... I've got to say it to him now and not let him sweep the latest under the carpet.

If needs be I've got to bring this up and cause the argument. If it ends in NC it does.....

Fully understood.  Very much reduced contact and MC + noJADE was necessary for me with my uPDFather as my boundary to protect/guard myself from experiencing his PD actions/reactions.  Again, good luck!

SoT

[sambellscoup]

It could certainly feel really relieving to say your piece, and lay down the law - but as others have warned, it's likely the PD person won't respect it and will in fact try to do exactly the opposite of what you say. That's certainly what happens with my PD family members.

But, you might well need to say your piece so you can relieve some of the anger, and hand it back to the person causing it.

Just, don't expect them to change, and be ready for them to potentially double down on how they act towards you.

Consider whether anything you say might be something they could weaponise against you in any way that will affect your day-to-day life. Might be best not to give them any additional information about things that upset you or they might choose to then do more of the same.

But bear in mind that you always have the right to reduce or totally stop contact with them if they do behave even worse after this.

[Cat of the Canals]

BUT there's literally a herd of elephants in the room. He does something, it gets forgotten about and swept under the carpet. He does something and he must know I've worked out what he's doing and the same. He's VERY clever with it - he always manages to back off to stop it getting into an argument.

Sounds like my mother. She's only fully crossed a line a handful of times, and it was before I was in a place where I would have been confident enough to go NC. So as usual, the rugsweeping commenced. The one difference from every other time that's happened was that I wasn't playing along any more. I will never let myself fall back into the FOG again. I know who she is now, and she's lost my trust, probably forever.

I agree with Andeza and SonofThunder that you might want to prepare a bit. Not just for what you're going to say, but what you want out of this (I doubt he will accept any responsibility or offer any sort of apology), and what kind of reaction to expect. My guess is he'll go full waif. "How can you say these things to me! I'm a poor old man! You're so cruel to me!" Then he'll send some Flying Monkeys your way to tell you how nasty you were. All the while proving just how incapable he is of changing his behavior or seeing you as an individual.

If your intent is just to say your piece, there's no need to get drawn into arguing or defending. You are explaining the relationship from your perspective, and he can either take that in or not. If it were me, my plan would be to say what I have to say, allow a chance for CIVIL discussion (highly unlikely), and then I'd leave. And then I'd give myself a LOT of space to process what happened (i.e. not taking this person's phone calls for some time), because it's probably going to unleash a lot of emotions you've been holding onto for years.

[moglow]

Hi p123,

You know, setting boundaries isn't about you laying down the law for your dad.

It's about you laying down the law for *you*:

"Look, me, I am only going to talk to dad once a week. If he calls in between those times, I will let the call go to voicemail."

"Me, I am going to let go of the thought that I might get a lot of money from my dad. It's his money, not mine, and if he brings it up I will say, Hmm and change the subject."

"From now on, me, I will respond to his health complaints with, 'Sounds like something to discuss with the doctor,' full stop."

P123, to have a big showdown with your dad is not laying down the law. It's just doing exactly what he wants at you and your family's expense. You're giving him all manner of attention and emotion and drama, and energy that rightly belongs to your spouse and children.

What difference does it make if you have children if you are first and foremost your father's child?

What difference does it make if you have a spouse but your primary emotional relationship is with your parent?

What difference does it make that you have a successful career but the boss of your life is really your dad?

At some point, p123, you are going to have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want to change yourself in regards to your father? Not "change your father," which is impossible. Not "change the relationship," which is an outcome, not a cause. Change yourself. Change *you.*

THIS. ALL of this! Thank you, Leonor!

P123, really - you're going to "lay down the law" to an 80+ year old man, to what purpose? What exactly do you see changing here - you said yourself you don't see him changing. You've continued the angst and arguments and the same old same old for a while now. Of course he wants you to visit! He's alone and lonely, probably more so this past year+ like a lot of people. He's selfish and needy and cantankerous. And? Were you regularly and happily visiting him before? No? So what changed - he's still the same person he's been.

You're fed up and aggravated, I get it. But understand YOU have to change here - change the way you react to his stuff and understand that's all still *his* stuff. He can say and do whatever he wants - and he will! - and you're still a separate person. You don't have to be rude or confrontational about it, but sounds like you very much need to change the way you look at it, respond [or not] instead of react.
Our boundaries, ours to defend. They aren't rules for other people to follow.

[Sneezy]

p123 - I can't add any more to the excellent advice you have already received.  But I will say that I completely get how you feel.  Laying down the law feels so good!!!  I like nothing better than laying out my argument, point by point, and then coming to a logical conclusion.  The problem is that laying down the law rarely works when you are speaking with a rational, mentally healthy, nice understanding peer.  And it NEVER works with someone with a PD.  If it makes you feel better, then by all means give it a go.  But I would recommend you take the time you would spend laying down the law with your Dad, and instead turn off your phone and use that time to take your family out for a nice dinner. 

From one logical, rule-based, why can't everyone just follow directions person to another, I wish you the best 

[wisingup]

p123 - i hope you don't feel ganged up on, but the wisdom here is spot on.  My brother and I did a confrontation with our mom a few years ago and while it did feel good to say the things to her that I wanted to say, nothing of value came out of the meeting.  Everything we brought up she either 1) said she didn't remember it or 2) had an excuse why it was justifiable and/or 3) got angry with us for being so mean to her as to accuse her of these things.  She also threw in how instead of being upset with her manipulations, guilt trips and lashing out, we should have been concerned and checked with her to see if she needed help.   

But it did cement in my mind that there was no hope to repair the relationship unless she took some major steps.  Now i take the attitude that she is entitled to behave however she likes and does not have to change just because i requested it, but I also have the right not to be in her presence if I find her behavior upsetting.  In fact, I owe that to myself & my family.  So until she ever contacts me to say that she understands what I've been saying all these years & she'll make some effort to change her behavior, we are in VVVLC & there we will stay.  But she's the one in control, really. I'd work with her at the drop of the hat if she truly understood, but i don't think she's capable.  Your dad probably isn't either.

[nanotech]

I agree with everything said here- all excellent advice!
He won't change, but you already hold  all the cards.
I reached 50 plus too before I began to understand that although I was happily married and a parent, I was still living life to please MY parents (and to some extent my PD siblings too). I was completely enmeshed.
I made huge life decisions in order to please THEM. At times I made huge decisions NOT to please them. But the latter turned out to be still a symptom of my enmeshment. Polarisation is still a dance of communication for them. Then there's the famous carpet sweep and things are okay for a while, till it all begins again.
Sigh. I'd been an adult decades and they were still my primary emotional relationships. Moreover,they expected to remain so, despite my having my own family. My husband was tolerated as long as he served them in some way.
This requirement for us to to put them first isn't reciprocated by them. We are just an extra in their life, in their drama.
But they must be everything to us. Any time they want us, we must drop everything and come running.
And there's the answer. You can tell him all you like, but actions speak louder.
Just reduce or stop your contact without the surety of his acceptance.
Calm detachment is the best remedy.
Anger feels good to release, but it feeds the drama, and watch out for him upping his game ( extreme waifdom / extreme  defensiveness and denial ) . He will likely keep it up for a while. He will also enlist your brother ( also an extra in his film) as an ally of his 'shock'  and his perceived 'hurt'.
Just detach emotionally, as all this fussing and blaming is designed to manipulate you and keep you enmeshed.
If you can hold your nerve, remain calm and unreactive, it has nowhere to go and eventually fizzles out.  It's a lot of bluff and hot air, after all. It thrives on the drama and the conflict as much as the compliance. I recognise how difficult this is. We have to alter our whole being to make this change.,
Then choose your level of contact. NC or LC. See how it goes and if drama happens and it fires up again, reduce it further. Just do it rather than saying you'll do it.  By the way, you can still love your dad.

I'm wondering now how it's gone. Let us know.

[p123]

Thanks all - of course you're all right here...

I think some of you hit the nail on the head. I felt I had to confront him with some of this - even to give him a chance if you know what I mean. I don't think I could ever go NC without knowing that I'd told him I was unhappy and he still remained the same. It was for me - and I do feel better.

Of course, will he change? 99% sure he won't to be honest like you're all telling me.

I think he was a bit shocked to be honest. He did try and "explain" a few things and deny a few things. BUT I'm 99% sure on most of these that he's lying here to be honest.

He tried to come back with a few things "Its not fair you're wife doesn't speak to me". Told him forget that one, its her decision, and I support her, and its his fault because of how he's behaved.

We had a discussion about the kids. He swears he doesn't ignore them because he "always asks how they are". Right. He does this because I've seen him with a piece of paper with it written on so he doesn't forget - he asks because he know he should. That's all. Not once in 2 years now has he said "I haven't seen the kids for a while bring them up". Because hes so obsessed with HIS needs.

Yeh I got the waif bit then. "Oh I've lived too long", "Oh Im so upset". Yeah right. You're doing. Suck it up. Nice try. Not interested.
Yeh forgot that might happen.

I told him now I'd still visit him in the week one evening if I can. But the grocery game ends. Also, it is not set in stone - I do on call if I get called then he has to deal with it.

I'm not visiting at the weekends end of.

[Cat of the Canals]

Congrats, p123! It sounds like it actually went pretty well... or as "well" as this kind of thing can go.

[nanotech]

😊😊😊😊😊 not easy, but it sounds like you did it.

[theonetoblame]

I think some of you hit the nail on the head. I felt I had to confront him with some of this - even to give him a chance if you know what I mean. I don't think I could ever go NC without knowing that I'd told him I was unhappy and he still remained the same. It was for me - and I do feel better.

Your post reads as healthy and relatively unscathed -- well done! I identify with what you're saying here and with the people I have gone NC with I have also explained to them why and provided a path back to being in contact they could choose to take. Of course they didn't, but it was also for me, so I could look at myself in the mirror and know that I had done everything in my power to treat them with respect and dignity.

While I do agree that PD people won't change, I also think that ghosting them without explanations is disrespectful and hurtful and should be reserved for situations where the PD person is actively cultivating or causing harm in my life. Even with my 'way out there' half sibling who was drunk dialing my place of business I gave him an explanation prior to blocking him anywhere and everywhere. He could still send a letter though, but the message was very, very clear. Get treatment for your addiction or don't contact me -- the choice is his.

[p123]

Yes got to be fair Im way happier now I've laid it all out to him....

Sort of balls in his court now.