I read "Thinking Fast & Slow" and I highly recommend it, but I've noticed that in PDs it's not biased thinking that's the problem, it's just plain bad/wrong thinking.
My discussions with PDs result in them spewing a lot of fallacies. I can't tell whether they believe themselves, not realizing these are fallacies, or whether they don't care and just use them as a way to try to sidetrack the conversation or overwhelm you with nonsense, maybe both.
The most common one I've encountered goes something like this:
You're a perfectionist and therefore what you are asking for will never be enough for you, and we won't get anywhere, so there's no point in trying.
This contains so many fallacies it's actually hard to keep track of, but:
Begging the question: This assumes the conclusion that I'm a perfectionist, which is not open to debate: (no, I just want x. x won't be enough for you. so we assume both premise and the conclusion as fact.)
False Dilemma: Assuming I'm a perfectionist creates a false dilemma as being the only option provided to describe me and what I want. This is also known as splitting.
Ad hominem fallacy: This is an attack on my character, rather than a discussion of the underlying issue. So it's possible that I have whatever flaw you accuse me of, and yet I'm still correct.
Non-sequitur: Even perfectionists accept perfection, so "never enough" doesn't follow. For example if I tell you what I want from you, and you do exactly as I ask, that is perfection. So you're really assuming that I'm an insane perfectionist.
Non-sequitur: Even If it's true that nothing will ever be ever enough, it still doesn't mean "we won't get anywhere" because the attempt will move the conversation, and at least you could say "I did exactly what you asked and it didn't get us anywhere."
More circular reasoning: clearly we would get somewhere so this is again assuming we will get nowhere, but also that even if we get nowhere, the point in trying is to help me see that we got nowhere, so this conclusion fails too.
What's your favorite nonsense?
Ok, how about:
Since you said I have shortcomings it means you hate me, and I won't talk to you when you're so full of hate.
Non-sequitur & false equivalence: Being critical is not the same as and does not imply being full of hate.
Splitting: Completely uncritical adoration is not love it is worship, and only God gets to be worshiped, and we sometimes even question Him. So the choice is not limited the extreme of hate vs. worship -- I can love you and still need you to change some things for me.
Begging the question: Using an assumed conclusion (hateful) to reach a further conclusion (I won't discuss it).
Here's a good list. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/thoughts-thinking/201708/18-common-logical-fallacies-and-persuasion-techniques
I also find that when cornered, PDs tend to just throw out a boatload of garbage and try and drag in all the nonsense they've ever come up with just to make further discussion impossible. In the end, they just don't care about what you think or how you feel, so the bad logic is an attempt to bully.
When I had a long talk with ds21 this summer about uPDh, ds commented on one of updhs frequent comments that it's a tu quo que,logical fallacy.
Hypocrisy.
Updh is often a hypocrite.
Enabler: "This is not about facts. It is about feelings. You have to deal with the emotions involved."
PD: "I feel that [insert fact assertion]."
Me: "I understand you are hurt, and am sympathetic. But that fact assertion isn't true. I can kindly explain what really happened."
Enabler: "How dare you harrass her and tell her she has no right to feel the way she does?!?"
[REPEAT AS THOUGH IT IS NECESSARY]
I wouldn't say these were favorites, but they do fit the "nonsense" part. This is a simplistic rundown, but my mother has expressed the following;
1. You didn't make it to the family get-together, therefore, your ultimate goal is never to see me again. You plan on abandoning me. You hate our family.
2. You missed your brother's visit (I was on a trip that had been planned months before he announced he was coming, and had been paid for with no refund available.) You hate your brother. You hate all of us.
3. You didn't email me back by the end of the day, so I know something is very wrong, and I should be worried about you. Or, you're just rude, and plan to abandon me. I annoy you.
4. If your tastes differ from mine, you are putting me down and judging me negatively.
5. I know you better than you know yourself, in fact, I know your thoughts. And you are full of hatred for me.
6. Our family is superior to other families. We are different. But, other people don't understand that, so they think we are worse, which makes it true. We are worse and superior than everyone else, simultaneously. That's why things don't work out for any of us. Because we are different.
7. When something bad happens to you, I feel worse than you about it, because I'm your mom.
8. I wish you and your siblings communicated more with each other. But, I expect all your communication to go through me.
9. I'll explain to you how you feel and why.
10. You don't want that, you just like the idea of that. You don't know what you like or want. I'll tell you.
11. You did exactly as I asked. But, you must have done it with hate, because your heart is full of hate.
12. You have no idea how much I love your children.
13. You are so full of hate that you're destroying our family.
14. You did that perfectly. That makes it too perfect. Which means imperfect. Which means it's not good enough.
Sorry this got so long! I think it was therapeutic for me to write it down. The scary thing is, I could go on and on. But, basically, everything comes back to me being full of hate.
Sophie48, you have me in stitches / tears.
"When something bad happens to you, I feel worse than you about it, because I'm your mom."
It's always all about them...
Too funny / sad.
"You're better than everybody else, because you're smarter than everybody else, and they all hate you because they're jealous. You should be proud everybody at school hates you. You shouldn't ever care what anybody else thinks. Except your parents."
Even as a child I would think this was stupid. The real goal was to turn off my emotional pain. The real message I received was I don't get to be vulnerable, ever. Turn off those emotions because nobody will ever care. Least of all your parents. Emotions are for the weak. There's something wrong with me and it can never be fixed. So suck it up, buttercup. Just turn yourself off and be and do exactly what we tell you.
Writing this now is really hard... I've done so much analyzing and understanding over the last year but that toxic shame is still there. It's really hard to admit that I'm not okay. That I'm grieving and that is okay. I don't really believe that it's okay for me to grieve. I've always had to be strong. I needed to be strong for my parents and now I need to be strong for my kids. I feel like I've been permanently messed up. Damaged goods. All the good friends and kind people I've been blessed to know... I don't deserve it. I wouldn't blame them in the least for saying "Cordelia's got issues and I'm tired of helping her." Never mind that I would and have done the same for them. That's only my duty. My job is to help everybody else. That's why I'm allowed to exist. I earn my keep. Always. And if I stop earning it, who would stick around?
I've never known what it's like to feel worthy. Worthy of love. Of recognition and appreciation. Of unconditional caring. Oh, sure, I'm nice-looking, intelligent, good cook, artistic. But so dang awkward. I have only very rarely felt like I even belong. And even then it's not far from my consciousness to wonder how long it will last.
:bighug:
Call Me Cordelia,
You deserve all the good things life has to offer, absolutely!
Thanks for saying that, Sophie. :hug:
Felt good to put down that mess of false belief.
Another one of my father's favorite sayings: "There is no reality, only perception."
This would be trotted out when his alternative facts didn't square with mine. Gaslighting omg.
:stars:
Sounds like he spent a lot of time watching "The Matrix"—probably a great resource for him ;D
("There is no spoon" seems to apply to everything when a pd is involved!)
Black and white thinking and all or nothing thinking are my pdh favorites
My unBPD mom is convinced that her family shunned her because she divorced and remarried. She often crows about my cousin being married for a second time. I want to point out to her (but I don't want the shitstorm that would go with it), that the issue wasn't the divorce--it was that her second husband was a scary sociopath.
"Family is everything"
You hurt ME, and that's totally unrelated to how much I hurt you for years, abusively, violently. (my parents)
Love is something you say, not something you do (both sets of parents)
Reality is whatever we want it to be. It is unrelated to observable facts. (both sets of parents)
Life is a zero-sum game. If you have something, then I can't, so I hate you for having it (uNBPDmil)
Life is about power and control. If I'm not controlling you, then you must be controlling me, and that's intolerable (uNBPDm)
If you look away, close your ears and refuse to see something, it doesn't exist (enF and enFIL)
You do not have humanity, your own needs, your own rights (both sets of parents)
The past is in the past. The past is whatever we say it is. The past is relevant when it suits us, invisible when it doesn't. If you remember the past, you are holding a grudge and not "growing." If we remember the past, there's a valid reason (my parents)
If you tell us very clearly, repeatedly, what you see as the problem in our relationship, you are lying or crazy. Because it doesn't make sense to us, you must be making it up or trying to upset us. It's not that you think differently, it's that something isn't adding up. Instead of the XYZ things you tell us are the problem, it MUST actually be ridiculous, ancient abc reasons instead, which is what we will tell people who ask. Even though XYZ is in writing, repeatedly, clearly. (both sets of parents)
I could go on, but it's a little triggering.
I feel like it's a good thing that I can laugh when reading these, but I'm not sure about that. I'm laughing thinking "right!?!? who DOES THAT?" and then I remember who does that.
all4peace, yup: "If you remember the past, you are holding a grudge and not "growing." If we remember the past, there's a valid reason (my parents)"
About zero-sum game. I feel like that's not it, it seems more childish and vindictive. Like: if you have something, you don't deserve it because you're inferior, and I'll take it away. If I have something which you want, ha-ha, you'll never get it, even if it's something like affection or appreciation which I could give for free.
My widowed PDM.
You're looking for problems when there are some in the world that are worst right now.
You didn't want to talk to me so I just didn't call.
You're not feeling well.
So that's it, as parents we did nothing right.
Projection is a huge one.
PD mom saying,
"It's your job to have a relationship with me. It is always the child's job to have a relationship with their parent."
And she means it! (Stopped contacting her in March 2016 and she hasn't contacted me other than her yearly birthday wish and the occasional death or illness notice which she has also stopped)
I want our family to be close but none of the siblings can be closer to each other than they are to me. In fact if you siblings hang out with each other alone without me present I get jealous and harass you for it so you won't do it again. (4 siblings barely talk to each other)
Had to add another good one
"Your father's death doesn't affect you, I'm the spouse and my life is forever changed."
Younger Nsister sends me a NASTY text message which informs me that she is "re-baptizing" my 9 year old niece due to me being such a horrible person. (brothers are new FAIRY GOD PARENTS) I forward this terrible hurtful text to my mother (turns out mother had read it weeks before and knew it was going to be sent to me, dear mom threw the baptism after party also!). So I forward my sisters horrible text to me mother, whos house my husband and I left 1.5 hours earlier. My mothers response "you don't know how much this hurts me". REALLY?????????????
This is what some one else wrote and is SOOO fitting with my mother also : " I want our family to be close but none of the siblings can be closer to each other than they are to me. In fact if you siblings hang out with each other alone without me present I get jealous and harass you for it so you won't do it again. (4 siblings barely talk to each other)"
My mother has said several times "I just want to be one of you kids" (she has 6 adult children). I actually took the time once to explain to her how being the mother of us 6 kids is actually a bigger honor. UUUUUGGGGGHHHH The breath I wasted!
Ad hominem fallacy.
I asked spouse to do something in fall. Spouse waits until now. It's twice as expensive. Now it's my fault.
Quote from: all4peace on January 19, 2019, 08:25:37 AM
"Family is everything"
You hurt ME, and that's totally unrelated to how much I hurt you for years, abusively, violently. (my parents)
Love is something you say, not something you do (both sets of parents)
Reality is whatever we want it to be. It is unrelated to observable facts. (both sets of parents)
Life is a zero-sum game. If you have something, then I can't, so I hate you for having it (uNBPDmil)
Life is about power and control. If I'm not controlling you, then you must be controlling me, and that's intolerable (uNBPDm)
If you look away, close your ears and refuse to see something, it doesn't exist (enF and enFIL)
You do not have humanity, your own needs, your own rights (both sets of parents)
The past is in the past. The past is whatever we say it is. The past is relevant when it suits us, invisible when it doesn't. If you remember the past, you are holding a grudge and not "growing." If we remember the past, there's a valid reason (my parents)
If you tell us very clearly, repeatedly, what you see as the problem in our relationship, you are lying or crazy. Because it doesn't make sense to us, you must be making it up or trying to upset us. It's not that you think differently, it's that something isn't adding up. Instead of the XYZ things you tell us are the problem, it MUST actually be ridiculous, ancient abc reasons instead, which is what we will tell people who ask. Even though XYZ is in writing, repeatedly, clearly. (both sets of parents)
I could go on, but it's a little triggering.
For my pwPD, these have actually been said. A lot can be said for the concept "drunk talk is sober thoughts".
I love this thread. An excellent crash course in crazy.
uNPDF:
Since I'm the steward of reason and reality, what I don't like is by definition unreasonable.
People get in the way of what matters.
Emoting is a sign of weakness.
Weakness is shameful.
If you think I could be wrong, you're wrong.
I'm smarter than you and know better than you, whoever you are.
If you don't do what I want, you're an idiot.
uBPDm:
Nobody, anywhere, ever, can understand me. I am utterly unique and alone.
Being myself is shameful.
There is nothing I can do to change anything about me or my circumstances. Thus, ignoring what might be wrong is an adaptive virtue.
My duty is to serve my husband. It's selfish and wrong for me to have needs, and especially wants, of my own that differ from his. Feeling resentment means I just need to submit more fully.
If you don't believe and worship as I do, you are evil or a victim of evil. As my path is incredibly unique, this includes almost everyone. Understanding this dogma is love. Challenging this dogma is hate.
When my daughter disagrees with me, it is an attack on my very being. Only evil would attack my very being, so my daughter is evil.
The world is out to get me. I will never be safe.
Wow raven lady...your f and my h:
"If you think I could be wrong, you're wrong.
I'm smarter than you and know better than you, whoever you are.
If you don't do what I want, you're an idiot."
They must have studied the same textbook.
11JB68 - Must have. I think mine even manages to convince a lot of people he's right to be so arrogant. He is a brilliant man and good at many things. He is also emotionally abusive. The former appears to justify the latter in his mind.
:yeahthat:
I was being hoovered, so in anticipation of another hoover, I broke VLC. :( and I ran into another common one:
I won't do/say/give what you want, because it wouldn't prove anything.
I'm not asking for it/whatever because I want proof, it's because I want you to do/give/say and I would be happy if you did.
Nobody does stuff to "prove" things. People do stuff because they ARE things, like nice, and kind, and considerate, and generous. People do and give because it makes them happy to see others happy -- that's empathy.
I'm not looking for proof, I'm looking for kindness and respect. Don't do it to prove anything, do it for a good reason, or even for no reason.
Quote from: VeryUncertain on February 04, 2019, 12:17:35 PM
I was being hoovered, so in anticipation of another hoover, I broke VLC. :( and I ran into another common one:
I won't do/say/give what you want, because it wouldn't prove anything.
I'm not asking for it/whatever because I want proof, it's because I want you to do/give/say and I would be happy if you did.
Nobody does stuff to "prove" things. People do stuff because they ARE things, like nice, and kind, and considerate, and generous. People do and give because it makes them happy to see others happy -- that's empathy.
I'm not looking for proof, I'm looking for kindness and respect. Don't do it to prove anything, do it for a good reason, or even for no reason.
This whole deal is a great "putting into words" an aspect of pj's that really bothers me.
The fact that behaviors are proofs. It illustrates the idea of them being empty and having no real identity. They instead of acting because of what and who they are, adopt actions that are proofs or evidences of who or what they wish to make the target believe they are.
I did this so I am that, seems to be what they think. That they refuse to do something because it proves nothing means they see no value in "being that guy" at the time.
It's so tiring.
uNPDF: of COURSE I always put myself and my needs first! EVERYONE does.
Also uNPDF: if you put your needs ahead of mine, you are selfish and inconsiderate.
I have been so meshed with people who have varying degrees of PD that I questioned if it is me or everyone else. The people in my life include ex, child, husband, family members... I had to see a counsellor for assessment for an objective opinion. Apparently, I do not have PD but a good case of depression and PTSD from all the manipulations and chronic abuse, Trauma.
Also, extremely susceptible to JADE discussions and then lack the ability to get out of the cycle because my only tool is "I don't want to talk about it." I just try to stop it as I know where the conversation is going and it is spilling out of control.
I am learning so much by reading other people's stories. I will admit, it has been long enough for me to know better but I am still not clear on all the subtle styles of manipulations.
My biggest beef - I hate it when they blame me for their shit! Or, the double sided coin only when you do the same thing they did; it's unforgivable.
I also hate having to call the police to help me look for my child who is out of control and at large for risk of harming self...
I am definitely suffering from PTSD.
"When you were born I already saw that yo don't like me. You probably wanted someone more intellectual as a mom."
I spent precious years of my life trying to prove that I do like her until I really didn't like her any more...