Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[escapingman]

I have got to the stage where I just have to realise I am damned if I do, and damned if I don't. uNPDxw is setting DD2 against me whatever I do, and is moaning to her (and DD) about everything I do. I can't win. I was really down a while ago but watched some really good videos and realised, there is a way to win, and that is to live my best life and ignore whatever stories uNPDxw is telling DD2. I am not sitting around waiting for crumbs and leave the control in the hands of a psychopath with a vendetta. uNPDxw is trying to manipulate both kids over Christmas, DD is constantly being asked to spend it at hers, whilst at the same time DD2 is not going to spend a minute at mine. I have no intention on sitting on my own hoping for a brief meeting with DD2 when it suits uNPDxw in a public space with maximum humiliation that my daughter can't even visit in my own home. DD is feeling incredible frustrated by being used as a pawn and has no desire to turn up at uNPDxw as a war trophy paraded for the entire PD family. With no interest from my own FOO me and DD decided we are off for the entire Christmas, yes it will hurt to not se DD2, but it would hurt more to sit on my own at home knowing they all play a charade using DD and trying to turn her against me. This is obviously used against me and DD with maximum pressure on DD2, but it's not like she would come with us wanted to see us at mine anyway. I am not going to feel guilty.

I am going to live my best life, no matter what.

[escapingman]

Thanks user,

To no surprise uNPDxw is ramping it up, she is yet again showing how disordered she is. She has put DD2 against me and tries to get to me and DD through her. I feel sick from the bottom of my stomach about how manipulated DD2 is and how the system is incapable of helping with this kind of abuse. I keep documenting everything but on the surface it will only looks like a mum desperately wanting to see her daughter, not anything about a dad desperately wanting to see his daughter. I have watched a few videos on youtube by a girl that was subjected by parental alienation and was alienated from her dad for 20 years before she understood the truth, she is trying to raise awareness of the subject - https://www.youtube.com/@TheAnti-AlienationProject . It's very powerful videos but so so sad to watch, it gives me no hope but anger. But I know I need to find the strength somewhere, to either fight this or walk away from DD2. What's going on now is really really hard, I am trying to live my best life but a big part of me is missing. 

[SonofThunder]

EM, Im sorry that your kids are being weaponized by your exw against you in projected, covert alienation.  Does DD2 follow you and/or DD on any social (like Instagram) or private shared media (like a shared Google Photos account), or does your exw restrict DD2 from doing so?  If following is not allowed then the idea below may be pointless.

My thought is that (a boundary), your side of truth reality could possibly be displayed; not necessarily as a ploy, but a photo and/or written reality of a dad's truly broken heart. Some folks here may not like this idea but to each his/her own. 

In proper boundaries we each can only control our own actions and reactions and I am free to display my truth to any social followers, if I desire.  As an example (pretending your reality was my own):

A: If joint custody was that I had one week with both minor children and then my exw had them both the next week, back and forth, then there is no missing component for my week with both kids, but two missing components the following week. 

B: If custody was that I only have DD, but DD2 never, then I always have a missing component. 

In scenario A, my social-shared photos would show 3 people as I go about the days in my week with both children.  The dinner table would show 3 plates and 3 people. Same with a fun outing, local/regional trip, whatever.  In scenario B though, the pictures show only the reality for two people.... or could show a dad's reality of 1 empty chair, plate, seat in the car etc. 

When my kids were young, we traveled to many military air shows, and my kids asked about the gap in the 'missing-man formation'. The space left open was purposefully created to show the stark reality. In a similar manner, my truly broken heart of scenario B, is that there is still 3 dinner table chairs, 3 plates, 3 seats in the car, but there's a 'missing man' gap that is clearly visible to my photo onlookers.

The idea seems very passive aggressive on the surface, but if the photos are about me and descriptions dont mention the 'missing man', then the reality of the 'missing man' (DD2) is both visually obvious and very true of my father's heart. Its my story to tell, regardless of what anyone else thinks.  I may even put a very large teddy bear or other stuffed animal in the chair (hmmm...does my DD2 have a favorite animal?) 🤔. 

Wishing you joy wherever you may find some,

SoT

[Lookin 2 B Free]

EM,  Like SOT mentioned, I'm so sorry your DD is being weaponized against you.  My FOO did this kind of thing when I was a kid.  It's truly awful.

Can you call, text, or get word to her that you would love for her to join you on your holiday trip and to please let you know if this is possible?  Even if you're certain that she could not or would not come, it could mean a lot to her to be invited, to know you want to be with her.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I think that directly inviting her is a much better approach. Even if you are rejected time and again, due to XW's manipulation or whatever reason, being invited is constructively maintaining that open door for her. Whatever else happens, you are showing her she is wanted.

[escapingman]

Thanks for your input, this is impossible whatever I do. If I ask DD2 to come with me I will be accused for trying to take her away from uNPDxw for Christmas and she can be even more victim. If I don't ask DD2 to come I will be mean to not taking her with me. At the moment I am only allowed to see DD2 if I take her for expensive activities or meals in restaurants, she refuse to come to my house and never reply to any messages unless it is in direct correlation to her receiving something of monetary value and approved by uNPDxw. It is killing me from inside getting constant rejection and having to pay to see my own daughter. The idea to go away for the holiday season was to avoid all manipulations and have any crumbs allowed by uNPDxw. The only way to get truly free is to let go of DD2 until she is ready to see the truth, but I can't.

[Starboard Song]

I truly believe that in these situations we have to move on and live our lives as though these dear loved ones will never again be a part of it, while also doing the little things necessary to keep the door open and light on, in case things are ever right again.

I find that the door is most open, and the light most on, if we are happy and confident and independent.

I wish you so much strength through this. I understand how terribly hard it is.

[escapingman]

Thanks Starboard, I needed to hear that now. I don't want to feel guilt for trying to move one with life, it's not me that is the obstructive one.

[SonofThunder]

The only way to get truly free is to let go of DD2 until she is ready to see the truth, but I can't.

EM, I believe your correct answer and marching orders are in your sentence above; you soldier, are correct on both aspects.  Even if you had a storybook marriage and family home life, the day is coming in each child when you as a parent must "let go". 

Imo, if a non-adult child desires to make adult decisions for themselves, then it's time to let the child experience adulthood; ALL of it, not just some of it.  Imo, it's both proper and loving parenting to do so. Imo DD2 needs to learn (on her own) to recognize how she's being groomed by her mother.  If you try to teach her, it is used against you. 

Imo the foundations of physical safety, shelter, food and clothing are being met by your EXw, as I do not read concern from you on the basic necessities.  Therefore if those items are not the concern, then imo it may be time for you to "let go".

My children are married adults. I had to let them go...twice. The first time was allowing each one, while still in their final care years in my home, make adult decisions for themselves, and when they failed, come alongside them as a friend, not as a rescuer.  The second, was when each child committed themselves in marriage to their spouse, leaving mother and father. 

It seems to me that your DD2 has been placed by your EXw in a situation where some adult, self-training/experience is now at hand a bit early.  Early is not a bad thing though. It may even be good.

I purposefully purchased a German Shorthair pup from an award winning breeder.  That pup had outstanding genes. You have proven over and over again that you can keep engaged in the battle, changing your strategy effectively based on the moves of the enemy.  You are very intelligent, gainfully employed and are now managing your 'missing man formation' family in a different home, all why still employed and doing your best to be a parent to two children.  Im proud of you EM.  DD2 has your genes. 

When I had to let each child go twice, my heart and mind felt the father tug of but I can't; but I had to, as its what is best for the child in becoming a fruitful adult member of society.  My pup's outstanding genes allowed me to start training very early, letting that dog fail repetitively, and then through repetition figure her own way to success.  It was the proper method of training.  Very early on, she became an incredibly obedient, skilled pup that was allowed to be with me off-leash, because she learned to stay close and obey my commands.  In exchange for her self-teaching, she earned her freedom and freedom earned her joy. She was a happy, healthy dog and I, her joyful companion.

Its ok for us to but I can't internally and that is a parent's love for a child. But as you well stated, you must let go. Imo, as long as DD2 has the foundations I mentioned earlier, she will be ok.  She has your excellent genes EM; allow her to train herself to the truth, while seeing that you quietly have a place-setting ready for her at the table, a seat in the car buckled up for her to go on a trip with you and DD.  Gifts for her under the Christmas tree in your 'missing man formation' home.

Let go and but I can't (your emotional insides), imo must exist at the same time.

All the best to you my comrade in battle,

SoT

[SonofThunder]

I truly believe that in these situations we have to move on and live our lives as though these dear loved ones will never again be a part of it, while also doing the little things necessary to keep the door open and light on, in case things are ever right again.

I find that the door is most open, and the light most on, if we are happy and confident and independent.

I wish you so much strength through this. I understand how terribly hard it is.

+1

[escapingman]

Amazing SOT, you just put exactly what I think there but to afraid to accept. I shall do just that. Thanks.

[square]

I agree. EM, the trap is vicious and the mechanics of that trap is your love for your daughter.

That you have to prove your love by staying in the trap.

You can't save her by staying in the trap. You can move on and still love her, still have your door open for her.

But gosh, what a vicious trap. I'm so glad you're out.

[SonofThunder]

Amazing SOT, you just put exactly what I think there but to afraid to accept. I shall do just that. Thanks.

You're welcome my friend and comrade,

SoT

[Lauren17]

EM,

I logged on tonight because uNPDxh is ramping up manipulation of my two DD. I feel very much dammned if I do, dammned if I don't.
I needed a few minutes to express my pain and frustration that while divorce is still over, the abuse is not.
No matter how honest and calm and loving and honest I am with my girls, it feels like he is winning with his lies and manipulation and false promises.
I read your post and I feel less alone. I'm traveling down a very similar path.
SOT, your response brought tears to my eyes. Exactly what I needed today.

Now I'm looking to rediscover that courage to build my very best life.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

SOT,
I needed to hear your words of wisdom tonight.

Recently, I've had to "let go" of my 19 year old son into the arms of his narcissistic father.  And yes, internally, I'm saying I can't. 

It was so hard especially because I can see how his father uses him, lies, manipulates, keeps him down, etc....  But, my son needs to find his own way.

I'm seeing more and more how going no contact with his father and letting go of my son, is how I can help my son grow.  Trying to shelter him only added to his stunted growth.

[escapingman]

Lauren and Plants, this is hard, really hard stuff. We have to go against every logical thinking and emotion, but it's the only way. uNPDxw tried to put the same seeds into DD's head and to turn her against me, she arranged secret meetings and made DD feel like I wasn't allowing her to see her mum. I had to explain to her over and over again that her relationship with her mum is her responsibility, if she wants to see her she sees her. Surprise surprise, after a few times and sleep overs DD no longer wants to see her and feels it's more of a duty. So, they have to find out for themselves, DD and DD2 have the same mum but they see her completely different, or at least treat the situation completely different. I tried to point this out to DD2 when we still all lived together, but she was not accepting anything.

You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. I will keep seeing DD2 when she wants to see me, but I am done with chasing her and doing it all with strings attached. I need my head back, I need to focus on myself and my healing, I have let the situation with DD2 drag me too far down. I am going to enjoy the holiday over Christmas, I am not going to feel guilt for going away, after all the reason to go was to get away from all manipulations that comes around Christmas. uNPDxw is now trying to manipulate both kids over the week before Christmas instead, I can handle that, I think.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

Today, my son and his father stopped by my place to move their motorcycle out of the garage.  Apparently, it doesn't run so they left it, took the helmet, and left the garage door open.

I called my son to check to make sure it was him and not someone trying to take the bike.  I asked when they were going to move it.

My son got so frustrated with me - even the most typical exchanges between a mother and son, he can't tolerate.  His fuse with me is so short and yet he accepts any kind of behavior from his dad.  I can rarely ever do anything right.

I love my son and I miss seeing him; yet, his behavior is almost as toxic as his father's was, so I am glad he is gone.  I am afraid what our relationship will look like in the future.  Letting go is my best hope for our relationship to become a more healthy, positive one.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

I didn't have this exact situation when I divorced. (Kids are grown now.)  But it rings such a bell from my childhood.  I was dropped by one parent. 

Maybe you've already done this, EM, or maybe you have a good reason not to if not.  Have you considered, before you stop reaching out, letting DD2 know, one last time, that you hope she will one day renew your relationship because you love her; that you would like to have an ongoing relationship and that you feel it would be best if she were the one who let you know when she wants to see you so you're leaving that up to her?  If I had heard something like this from the parent who dropped me, even if he never reached out to me again, it would have made a world of difference.

It doesn't mean it all has to be on her terms.  If she calls and wants to get together, you can let her know it will be dinner at home (rather than anything expensive) and you hope she will come.  Your setting the rules is a normality that would be healthy for her, even if she doesn't like it or declines to come.

I don't know her age, teen, preteen?  Their brains and emotions are not fully developed and all she knows is what she's been exposed to.  She doesn't have the perspective of an adult who understands about the dysfunction of PDs and their healthy alternatives.  it's such a shame what's happened to her and I'm sorry for both of you.

Of course, you need to take care of yourself in all of this and live your best life which will bring you happiness, and, yes, boundaries are good for you and them.  I just think when it comes to kids, even teens, there are ways to "move on" without dropping the child and not letting them know what is going on or why and that you do love them and hope to reconnect someday.  Just my opinion after having been the kid in this situation. 

[escapingman]

Stop the press.

DD2 is in the house.

Thanks Lookin 2 Bee free, I was never going to drop her but mentally I had to stop hoping. No idea what just happened but here she is, happy and smiling.

[SonofThunder]

Stop the press.

DD2 is in the house.

Thanks Lookin 2 Bee free, I was never going to drop her but mentally I had to stop hoping. No idea what just happened but here she is, happy and smiling.

🤔 I need that popcorn eating gif emoji right about now.  Will wait patiently for the feature educational film to begin. Enjoy your time with DD2 😃

SoT