Kids Activities and Parenting TIme - Your thoughts??

[pushit]

I have a bit of a dilemma here and would love some input.  I am posting to this forum since the divorce is final, but more of my story is on the Separating and Divorce forum if you want more background.

A little background first:  We recently divorced, and have 3 kids (D9, D6, S4) with a 50/50 schedule.  My exPDw always had a problem during our marriage with over-scheduling, then offloading her responsibilities to me.  She also kept strict control over the kids' activities, once they started something (with her strong advice on what to do) they weren't allowed to try something new or take a break.  We fought constantly over this, and the blessing of divorce is now I have the legal right to control what happens during my parenting time and let her deal with her scheduling problems during her time.

During the marriage I fought for the kids' ability to choose for themselves and I will continue doing that.  There is manipulation going on at her house to keep them in the same activities they have always done, but I've heard from my daughters that they want to try some new things.  I'm also hearing they want to keep doing the same activities.  I hear a lot of "Mom said if I stop X activity, they won't ever let me come back" type of stuff.

Currently, exPDw has been hoovering me and been very accommodating and sweet.  I don't trust it though.  She also keeps trying to add more activities for the kids (who are over scheduled in my opinion).  An idea for something new pops up, exPDw tries to get me to agree to it, and I hear from my kid that they want to try it.  It's starting to get in the way of their homework and down time.  She constantly tries to add more.  It's a classic PD no-win situation. 

I get endless offers from exPDw that she is happy to drop off/pick up kids from activities on my nights.  This is what concerns me.  On one hand, I want to go ahead and allow the kids to do an activity they want to do, and allow exPDw to deal with her own over-scheduling.  The pro there is I'm not the "bad Dad who said no" and it doesn't add any more burden to my schedule.  The down side to this is it means more time for exPDw with the kids.  I know exPDw has trouble spending time alone and away from the kids, she has been seeking out every opportunity to re-insert herself in their lives.  I can tell exPDw is also giving them guilt trips as sometimes my D6 will be in tears when she starts a 5 day stretch at my house, saying how she misses Mom so much.  (The good part is she's fine after 30 minutes or so with me)  So, that makes me want to limit their interactions with her during my time as I think it's unhealthy to have exPDw keep showing up.

Knowing my exPDw pretty well these days, I know it's all about her public image as the mom that encourages all their activities and is involved, and not wanting to be alone.  It really has nothing to do with the kids, though she loves the narrative that I am the one keeping them from doing things.  I want to teach my kids how to manage a schedule so they know how to prioritize school and homework before activities.  I also don't want to fall into exPDw's trap and have the kids start believing that I am preventing them from doing fun things.

It's a fine line to walk.  What would you do?

[Poison Ivy]

I haven't been in your situation (I'm divorced but was married throughout my children's time at home), but I have some thoughts about your situation.  The main suggestion is that you base your decision on what's best for your children.  Not overscheduling the children seems important. I think it's the most important consideration.  Then go from there.

[Arkhangelsk]

Your kids are young.  However, as you recognize, your ex has plans to make this bad for you either way.  So I think Poison Ivy is correct - you need to do what is best for your kids.  But - I think you would all benefit from transparency here.  Yes, this means perhaps involving kids in things you would not do normally at this age.  But, she is going to do that anyway, so better give them some tools.

What I would do is create a framework for decision making.  Maybe work together to begin with a list of things that you can negotiate and things you cannot.  I would get big pieces of paper and markers and make this a family activity.  We know we need school, sleep, food and family time.  I bet they can come up with those things.  Then we have some time left.  What are things we like?  Why do we like them?  Can we rank them?

Once we know what really matters, we can begin to make some visual representations of our days.  See what fits in.  See what does not.  We can take time to chew on it and be sad about it if it all does not work.

Essentially, you have to help them get over the magical thinking.  Ask them a lot of questions.  "I know your mom will drive you to ballet on Thursdays, but you have also asked to do chess club at school and that is the same day.  Do you think we can get to both?"  "You do?  Okay, let's draw it out, how does that work?"

Your 9 year old can likely do this.  Maybe your six year old too.  Your 4 year old should at let see that you are organized and calm about it, even if he cannot really make sense of it all.

I guess my point is - if an adult is going to make all this an issue, then it exists, and must be tackled.  So bring the kids into the process.

[Poison Ivy]

Great suggestions!

[Penny Lane]

Hi pushit, welcome to this part of the forum! Sorry you have to be here though. All of the things you say and the dynamic you described is very familiar. Probably every person on this board has experienced either this problem or the converse (PD parent won't take the kids to any activities at all).

And the good news is, this is a really good opportunity for you to set the tone for future decisions. You, your ex and your kids are all figuring out how this divorce thing is going to work. I think this is a great opportunity to show that you are willing to work with everyone but that you are ultimately going to be the authority on what happens during your parenting time.

First of all, your gut is right. Do not let your ex take the kids to activities on your time. Make it a priority to take them to the activities they need to or should get to do. And say no to the ones they should not do. I think as a parent you have not just the right but an obligation to set this kind of limit - it makes for healthier, happier kids.

If you start making decisions because you don't want your ex to badmouth you to your kids, that gives her all the power to make parenting decisions. Because she can badmouth you to the kids about literally anything. What that means is that you will be making increasingly worse decisions for the kids in order to appease your ex. And, spoiler, she will never be appeased, and she will still try to turn the kids against you. You're going to have to say no to the kids sometimes. If you can show your ex that you're unfazed by that sort of alienation, it'll make her less inclined to do it.

I think you know all this, but I really want to validate what your gut is telling you. A lot of the advice out there about coparenting, it does NOT apply to coparenting with someone with a PD. I would read up on parallel parenting for a more accurate model of how things will go to you.

As always Arkhangelsk gives very good advice here. I especially agree that your kids are already hearing more than they should about your parenting discussions. You kind of owe it to them to walk them through the WHY of the limits you set on your time.

I came in to suggest a similar system although less thorough. Basically I was going to say, decide how much time you think each kid can handle. It sounds like your schedule is that you have the same two weekdays each week and then every other weekend? My limits would be, one weekend activity for the four and the six year old, and MAYBE an additional weekend or weeknight activity for the nine year old. You need to decide what works for you. And then within those limits you let them choose. Soccer or dance? Swimming or music lessons?

Let them know that this is not a binding decision. If they hate dance, they can end it after this session and sign up for indoor soccer. Or whatever. You don't need your ex's permission for any decision you make on weekday activities. You can just communicate it to the kids. If they complain and say they really want to do the thing, you can say, let's see how your schoolwork does this semester and revisit this issue next semester. Start with less things so you can add stuff later, rather than removing activities they already like.

Then, this is what you say to your ex: I have a limit of X number of activities on my time because the kids need to focus on schoolwork and getting enough sleep. Kids also need free play time - this is vital to their development. I've talked to them and they want to do these activities. So let's sign them up for those and we can revisit adding activities next semester.

She wants this to be a discussion of how you're too uninvolved to take them to activities. No, that's not what it is, you are trying to make the best decisions for their time and filling it with structured activities is NOT the best decision.

She will hate that you set this boundary. She'll throw a tantrum and say awful things to you and make threats and try to make the kids furious with you. (My husband's ex's favorite tactic when I met him was to question his mental health any time he set any boundary, no matter how minor, and imply that she was going to try to take him back to court for full custody. And guess what, as soon as he stopped responding to this line of attack, she stopped making it. She never really thought he was mentally unwell - she just thought that would get under his skin.) So, DON'T give in, remain calm, talk the kids through their feelings about this. She might want to argue about what activity you chose - that's ok, I think that's a reasonable parenting discussion to have, although if she becomes unreasonable you can end the discussion. The reality is that you have 100% of the power over what activities the kids do on your time, and while she will hate that she will eventually learn that this is the way things are. Like I said, this will set the tone for future discussions. You want your tone to be calm and flexible but ultimately firm. Your kids will be much better off in the long term.

My husband and I read a series of books called Parenting with Love and Logic. It was recommended by my therapist and it gives us an incredible model for having these kinds of discussions, both with the kids and with the ex. I highly recommend it if you're into that sort of thing.

[Arkhangelsk]

I think I am with you, Penny Lane.  Extra time with the ex is more time for her to push her agenda.  It is risky to let her have that time, and it there is a way to get them to a reasonable set of core activities without leaning on her, it is likely to save future drama.

[Stepping lightly]

Oh boy, this created flashbacks for me!  We went through very similar issues with my step kids. 

BM over schedules, they are ALWAYS on the go at her house.  She tried to over schedule their time with us, but DH has consistently pushed back.  He allowed her some flexibility when I first met him, and she would pick DSD up from school and take her to CCD, and then drop her off afterwards.  This stopped when BM failed to tell DH that there was no CCD one day, and she took advantage and took DSD anyway.   We had a PC a few years later that forced us to allow it again, it was horrible....just another mechanism for BM to step in and try to alienate.

She also scheduled them in the activities SHE deemed necessary.  If we even suggested an activity to the kids, BM would shut it down.  Usually she would say something where the kids, who were formally really excited about the activity, would say they didn't want to do it.  They ended up doing sports they did not excel in or like.....it was incredibly painful to watch.  They wouldn't admit it though, they had to play BM's game.

There is not much we can do about the choice of activities, if the kids are allowing BM to drive their preferences.  But DH put his foot down to say there is a limit on the time commitment .  Our CO also stipulates that we don't have to take them to any activities on DH's time that he did not agree to in advance.  She still uses the kids as pawns to try and push activities, but we also push back where we think it's best for the kids.

My SKs are 12 and 14.  DSD has started sleeping in like only a teenager can!  We absolutely allow them downtime at our house, because we  know that's the only downtime they get.  I asked them last time they were here if they get to sleep in at BMs, they said, "Nope, we always have somewhere to go".   

Bottom line, I think you have to suck up some of the decisions, but I would absolutely work on managing the chaos and time commitments.  Especially at such a young age, I wouldn't want them in more than 1 activity at a time for sure. They need time for play.  Definitely don't let BM do the driving on your time.

[Penny Lane]

I think I am with you, Penny Lane.  Extra time with the ex is more time for her to push her agenda.  It is risky to let her have that time, and it there is a way to get them to a reasonable set of core activities without leaning on her, it is likely to save future drama.

I would even go so far as to say that if it were me I would choose no activities at all rather than an activity that lets your ex disrupt your parenting time.

One, because like you said, pushit, she will use this time to try to alienate the kids.

Two, because relying on her is inherently unstable. At any time she could pull out and then what's your backup? If you don't have one, that's very stressful. If you do have one ... just use your backup, that will cause less problems in the long run. My H's ex got really involved with the kids during the divorce (according to him) and then again when they went back to court for a modification (as witnessed by me). As soon as the case was over, both times, she basically disappeared. If H had been relying on her taking the kids to activities, he would've been totally screwed.

Also, I think the problem that you're seeing and that SL describes, where the mom is dictating what the kids "want" to do ... you might not be able to stop this. But you can try to mitigate it and I think you have a good chance because they're so young. I think the best thing to do is give the kids lots of chances to make decisions. Little decisions for the little ones like "what do you want to wear today, this shirt or that shirt?" And bigger decisions as they get bigger. Including letting them decide what activity they want to do on your time. They get to strengthen their decision making muscle and they learn that they like to do the things that THEY chose to do (seems obvious, right?) Obviously you can do everything right and still end up in SL's situation. Either way it'll probably never be perfect. My stepkids have VERY high expectations for us in terms of letting them make decisions for themselves. Even they still come back sometimes demanding to do something that is clearly BM-driven. But I think it's way better than it would've been if we hadn't worked so hard on bolstering their decision-making skills.

[Arkhangelsk]

Good idea, PL.

We think a lot in terms of teaching kids frameworks.  They need a framework for how to determine who gets to make decisions. 

We told our kids that adults make decisions about health and safety and big ethical choices.  But kids can make decisions about preferences.  For example, the big picture menu at home is a health issue.  Parents are going to decide what kinds of foods are in the house by category.  But whether we get our veggies in eating kale or peppers - that is a preference.  Participating in a sport is a health issue - parents are going to decide how to balance the need to exercise with the need to sleep.  Which sport is a preference. 

Plus we talk logistics a lot.  Maybe soccer is 2 blocks away and hockey is 45 minutes.  We have time constraints and parents get the final say on decisions like that, because parents control the resources - we have the jobs and that means we control the resources. 

Which lets us remind the kids that being the big decisions makers comes with a lot of work and responsibilities!  So, even if they chafe a bit at being stuck at preferences for now, they do not have to pay the taxes and the mortgage.

[pushit]

Wow, so many good points here I can't even quote them all!  Thank you all so much.  It's awesome to have this site to come to and get advice, very few people in my daily world understand what I'm dealing with.  I assume that's the case for most of us on here.

You helped me confirm my gut feeling that I shouldn't bend on this at all.  There will be no instances of her taking the kids to activities on my time.  Great points from Penny Lane that exPDw will never be appeased anyway, and she's not someone that I can truly rely on to be accountable for taking the kids to activities.  So true.

I like the idea of getting the kids involved in mapping out our nights together, and letting them figure out what we have time for.  I've had discussions with D9 about this and she gets it, but it's not always easy for her to realize she can't do something because of time.  I'll engage more with her (and the other two when they're ready) about this over time.

I have already made it clear to exPDw that she doesn't get to schedule our time on my nights (or at least tried to).  I literally wrote to her in an email "the kids and I will decide what we do on my nights".  She didn't react much, just keeps trying to dig her claws into things.  I keep waiting for the hoovering to stop and the nastiness to show up again.  I'm 100% positive it will, it's just a matter of time.  It doesn't scare me though, it can't be any worse than what she tried when I filed.

We'll see where this goes.  I've been very open with the kids that their activities are their choice.  Dad doesn't know what you enjoy, only YOU know what you enjoy.  I've also been clear with them and exPDw that school comes first.  It is their responsibility to keep up with school, and if grades start slipping or they don't have time for homework then activities will have to stop for awhile.

[hhaw]

A bit of a rant warning.

Eek.  Telling the expdw "the kids will determine what happens" on your time.  Lordy, I hope the PDex doesn't start pressuring the kids to TELL you to do A, B C and D, according to what mom wants.   PDs, IME, believe what's best for them, is best for the kids.  They have no trouble poisoning, and manipulating children at will to get their way, IME.  That' can be a lot of pressure, IME.

Your kids are still pretty young. 

I'd tell the ex that she's welcome to do what she does on her time.  You're going to be planning your time with the kids,  and that's a boundary that's not flexible.

I think kids should explore, and discover their passions in life.  Trying new things is what they're supposed to be doing, IME.

I'd also teach them that they have their own jobs... grades, discovering their passions, chores, etc, but never the adult stuff.  Adults handle their adult stuff.
Adults will be fine, ,no matter what's going on, and it's not the kids responsibiity to worry about adult stuff, ever.

Just keep teaching that lesson,and validating the children's right to ignore the adult drama.  My kids were great at ignoring the adult conflicts... the youngest once murmered... "Mama drama" when her aunt was melting down.  Then my kid went back to playing like nothing happened, bc she knew it wasn't her problem to solve, and trusted the adults in her life would handle it. 

My kids suffered a good deal when the PDs dragged us through the courts, and I just couldn't protect them from the psych evaluations, and crooked court officers who were biased, and crazy.  People do irrational things.  PDs always convince someone of their insanity, but they can't convince everyone, IME.  Heck, the PDs were so over the top nuts, their own actions eventually showed the court what they were, and the judge ruled hard against them, and made them pay my legal fees.  I wish I'd asked them to pay for the emotional trauma, and harm we'[d be dealing with.  I think that Judge would have ordered it, frankly. 

I also would ask my children how they felt about something the PDs said or did to them. Sometimes the kids were really upset when they came home repeating what the PDs said.  I didn't lead them, or judge, or forget compassion in my choice of tone and words.... I just asked, and my kids were usually spot on after thinking about the situation a moment. 

Particularly my youngest dd.  She KNEW things, and spoke her mind.

My oldest was more reticement, and upset by the PDs attempt to turn her against me,which was really traumatic for her, and I didn't really understand it till we were looking at complete school refusal, wilderness camp, and therapeutic boarding school.  Oldest dd was traumatized by feeling put in the middle, particularly.  Traumatized by irrational PD conduct no kid should have to endure, but kids are exposed to PDs all the time. 

If I could have, I would have had them both in T with therapists who knew about trauma, codependence and PDs. 

You can always let your children call their mother, if they're truly upset and missing her. Then get back to your visit, and forming new rituals, and habits with the kids.  Really, get into the kitchen, find new recipes, and build some new family holdiay menus that get passed down to your children's children.  Build forts on rainy nights, hold a flashilight under your chin, and tell stories.  Kids really love fortes. 

:nodding::.

It would have saved a lot of suffering, time, and money if we could have seen good Ts all those years.  My kids were seeing a T at the beginning of all the trouble.  My youngest said we'[d outgrown her, and requested another T.  THEN the PDs forced us into custody and visitation court, with Court Ordered evaluations for the kids with a biased and unprofessional T who ruined my kids' ability to accept T for years!

The PD won't allow the kids to have proper boundaries.  It's up to you to teach them, and help the kids learn how to employ them in the face of a controlling, over directing mother who uses her relationship to them to define WHO she is. 

They might not be able to have boundaries at mom's house, but dad teachese them,and models them always.

All kids need is one good enough parent. 

I believe that's true. 

Take what makes sense, and leave the rest. 

Good luck,

[pushit]

Eek.  Telling the expdw "the kids will determine what happens" on your time.  Lordy, I hope the PDex doesn't start pressuring the kids to TELL you to do A, B C and D, according to what mom wants.   PDs, IME, believe what's best for them, is best for the kids.  They have no trouble poisoning, and manipulating children at will to get their way, IME.  That' can be a lot of pressure, IME.

TBH, I wrote "the kids and I will decide" because if anything ever gets submitted to the courts in the future, that shows that I'm not controlling and allow them to have a voice.  I want to show the opposite in my communications with her, because part of my argument in any future custody case would be that she is the controlling one and it's unhealthy for the kids.  They certainly have a voice in my house, but Dad will make the final decisions on what we do.

Valid point though.  I already see exPDw manipulating them big time, and I don't think there's much she wouldn't do to them to get back at me.  It is disgusting to watch an adult manipulate young kids, simply pathetic.  D6 is very much an empath, and I observe her trying to please mom to stay in her good graces quite often.  D9 is an independent thinker and quick to question things she doesn't think are right.  I think D9 and exPDw are going to have some serious battles in a couple years.  Since D9 is this way, I actually find it helpful.  She is the one that will bring up the things mom says, I can tell she is probing me to see if I think it's normal or not.  Hard to describe, but I can see in her eyes that she suspects something is up with mom.

It is something I will keep an eye on.  We're still in the early stages.  I'm open and honest with the kids and that allows them to open up to me, so I have a good idea of what they like and don't like.  I also know exPDw pretty well, so I see through her BS pretty easily nowadays.  Once the FOG lifts PDs can be easy to predict and circumvent.  I feel comfortable that I'll be able to pick up on whether mom is manipulating the kids into something or not.

One other thing - in your post about the clothing drama, I remember you wrote that the kids need to learn to advocate for themselves.  I agree with that, and think it applies to activities as well.  I think the best us non PDs can do is support the kids to make their own decisions and create their own identity, but at some point they have to pick up the ball and run with it.

[hhaw]

If I could go back, I'd read the book THE PARALLEL PROCESS, bc it has so much wonderful information about setting healthy boundaries,  and healing/growing alongside our kids.

Good stuff!

::wish you the best possible outcome for you and your kids::

[Penny Lane]

Pushit, I think you're spot on that the nastiness is coming. Right now your ex is testing your boundaries to see if she can get you to do what she wants. If niceness doesn't work she'll move to nastiness. It's great that you wrote that email, but I don't think she's going to REALLY believe the boundary is there until she tests it. When the nastiness comes, remember that giving in teaches her to be nasty to you whenever she doesn't like the parenting decisions you make for your time. She will probably say awful things, make threats, imply you're not a good father. None of it is true and as soon as she realizes she isn't getting the feedback she wants, she will drop it. Stay strong!

The stuff about manipulating the kids, that's why I recommend getting on the same page with them BEFORE you talk to her about it. That way the kids have in their mind "I want to do X activity." I think once they're excited about it, that makes it harder to change their mind. As opposed to, they don't really have anything in mind and ex suggests something so they go along with it.

H has also leaned on "the kids want to do X" in some communications with his ex. The risk that hhaw articulated is real, for sure, that BM now thinks that if she can get the kids to say they want to do something that H will bend. (This actually somewhat came back to bite us recently when she convinced the kids that H HAD to give her his parenting time. But he didn't and we all survived.) But I would also say that an argument where "mom wants this, dad wants that" is a lot more frustrating than "mom wants this, dad is advocating for kids who want/need that." You know? I suggest try saying stuff different ways to see what communication strategies are (more) effective and which ones don't get you anywhere. But really, any way you say it, she's not going to like it and she's going to try to use it to manipulate the kids.

That's a sad and scary reality and I don't want to be too much of a downer. I really do see this as an opportunity for you to set the right tone for your post-divorce life. If my husband had taken a harder line on this kind of thing at the beginning, I do think we'd be dealing with less of his ex trying to push his boundaries now.

I would also add, this issue will probably resolve itself eventually. Over-scheduling kids is a lot harder when you're a single parent than when you're in a two-parent household. I would not be surprised if, eventually, you end up having to cajole her into letting the kids sign up for any activities at all that happen partially during her time.