what do I tell the kids?

[sevenyears]

I haven't been on Out of the FOG much in recent weeks due to the sheer enormity of moving and dealing with my stbx uocpd h. Well, I've been negotiating with him since the middle of March to come up with a summer parenting plan - and one that includes a three week trip to my home (one week business, two weeks vacation). He has objected to everything and tried to use these negotiations to change the regular parenting plans too. So, after three months, I have informed the court that we could not come to an agreement and asked that a three week trip each year in the summer be included in the final parenting plan. It's sad because now the children won't get to see their grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc. I keep telling myself that we're lucky to have so much vacation time and now the kids and I can spend time doing lots of other fun things and just be together according to the still temporary (already one year) informal parenting arrangement that we have.

What do I tell my children (4, 7) about why we are not going to visit grandparents? Somehow, "Daddy and I couldn't agree on a vacation plan" feels like I'm letting him off the hook and taking the blame for this more than I should. Any ideas?   

[athene1399]

That really sucks, Seven years. I am sorry that your ex wouldn't reach an agreement with you to take the kids on the trip. Maybe something like "Dad and I were having trouble figuring out how I could have you for three weeks over the summer to go on vacation to visit family.  We are still working on it, so if it doesn't pan out this year hopefully we will have something in place by next summer." I know you are frustrated that you can't come out and say to the kids that you're trying your best to work something out and he's just shutting it all down, but if it sounds too much like you are placing blame on him that could be confusing for the kids. All of us here know you are not to blame, that your ex is being unreasonable and just won't budge. As the kids get older you will be able to tell them a bit more IMO. I just feel they are too young and may feel trapped in having to choose between parents if you are too honest about what is going on at their current age. I hope things get better. 

[Stepping lightly]

I agree with Athene- they are a bit young to give them too much information about the decision making.   I think it's safest not to tell kids about potential vacations etc until you have the agreement on the custody time, otherwise the kids get dragged into the middle of a discussion they are too young for.  To be fair, I wouldn't say there is blame involved.  Three weeks is a chunk of time and I'm not sure what the negotiations have been, but we would struggle to give BM that much time without figuring out a way to have some of that time back with the kids, because we get so little to start with. 

I know some on the board may disagree, but at that young age, I would just say "planning just didn't work out the way I hoped".  They don't need to know why.  BM used to tell the kids about activities on DH's time before requesting time from DH, then if he didn't agree with giving her the time (endless requests from her for time and she refuses to give DH even an extra hour), she told the kids it was DH's fault they couldn't do the activity/trip.  This was really incredibly stressful on the kids, and it put DH in an unfair position.  Keep the kids out of it, in my opinion. 

[Penny Lane]

So sorry sevenyears. I'm sure it's a huge disappointment to not be able to see your family this year (and I imagine it's a time you especially need their support!)



I would ask, what is your goal in telling them? You say that giving them less details lets him off the hook, but I would say that giving them more details actually puts them in a tough spot. So, unfortunately, like so many other things, I think the thing to do here is swallow your frustration and give the kids a light, airy response to questions: "It didn't work out this year! Hopefully we can go next year. This summer we'll focus our time on (other fun activity nearby)." They're young enough that they'll take their emotional cues from you.

You deserve to be frustrated about this, I just think you don't want to unwittingly pass that on to them. Maybe you can vent to a friend or journal before you talk to them so that you can be the calm rock your kids need.

I do think there will be a day that the kids start asking questions about the "why." Someday they will start noticing that their dad doesn't follow through on plans, is unreliable, if they have a disappointment like this it often comes from their dad. And you can be there to gently guide them to the truth. But for the next few years (probably? the pattern seems to be that it starts to click at 10-12, that's certainly what I'm seeing with my stepkids) the best thing you can do for them is shield them from the disagreement and any conflict.

It's totally not fair, it sucks, just like so many other situations in coparenting with a person with a PD.

[sevenyears]

Thanks Penny, Stepping and Athene for your thoughts and putting it all in perspective again. It's sooooooo frustrating! I try so hard to keep the children out of the middle of all this. It's nearly impossible. Before we separated, he would not let me spend any time alone with the children for almost one year. Since our separation, he has been playing all sorts of manipulative games with the informal parenting plan that our social worker put in place. Like others on this board have experienced, he is a master at using the children. The only reason we were able to make previous trips is because I gave into his demands. Once, he actually came with us for part of the trip, and the last time, he demanded extra time and lots of one-off changes to the parenting schedule for two months. I offered him equal time at the advice of the GAL, but then he insisted on changing the parenting schedule for the next two years so that they would be with him on most holidays (and I would have to beg - probably unsuccessfully, to see the children on holidays). Since I don't think he should have the children for longer periods due to his anger, his terms were awful and the prices became too high, I had to finally say it's not working and accept that we're not going this summer. He demanded those changes knowing I would not accept them. I think part of his objective this time is to make the children be disappointed in me.

The children know that we go to my country to visit relatives alternating winter/summer. Since the last trip was in winter, they expect the next trip to be in summer and have been asking and talking about it all year. They wanted to know when they can visit grandma and when they can go on an airplane, etc. While I have tried not to promise anything, and in fact have tried to avoid talking about it at all, it has been a topic for them. So, I can't just not say anything. In the end, I told them that Daddy and I have been discussing this for some time. I tried really hard, but we couldn't reach an agreement. Maybe it's not the best response, but it's the best I can do right now.

[athene1399]

I think what you told them is perfect. It is totally unfair though. The ex PDs are just unreasonable to deal with and try constantly to make us look like the bad guys. We got blamed for so much that we didn't cause, yet couldn't say anything because it would put SD in the middle. A few times we did speak up, but we coudln't come out and say what was really on our minds. We just kind of smoothed things over. Most of the time we would just work on problem solving the issues SO's BPDxw would create, or make sure SD realized that the issues weren't as big as BM made them out to be. What keeps me going is the hope that the truth will come out in the end, and one day SD will realize how much we've done for her and that we weren't the ones manipulating anything; it was the other way around.

I hope they are able to work something into the parental agreement for you. Trading time never worked out for us. BM always expected more the next time. Or if she wanted to switch a day, it ended out where she got SD for more time because she would take time instead of switching time. When It was our turn for make-up time with SD there was always an excuse why we couldn't have her back. So frustrating.

[Penny Lane]

I think part of his objective this time is to make the children be disappointed in me.

I think you're spot-on here. He put you in an impossible situation and forced you to make choices between two bad options, both of which wouldn't be good for the kids. It's soooo frustrating and it's worse that there's no real recourse. I hope the judge sees your side and gives you that time in the future.

The best you can do right now is pretty good, it sounds like! And it'll only get easier for you to navigate these situations as time goes on. If nothing else you'll have more practice.

[sevenyears]

Thank you all. It is so good to know that others out there understand. I hope the judge, social worker and GAL will understand. This evening, I ran into a former neighbor from my old neighborhood, who's kids are friends with mine. Her first question was when are the kids and I traveling to visit my/our relatives. Everyone who knows us expects that we will travel this summer to my country of origin. She couldn't believe it. Tomorrow I will talk with the Kindergarten teachers since I need a summer place for DS - a place which I should have arranged for in March. And, I will ask now for extra time off from work than anticipated. On the positive side, I'll get to spend relaxed time with the kids and do all the fun things at home that we usually don't have time for.  I am trying to stay positive.

[Arkhangelsk]

Hi Sevenyears -

I was in the same boat.  My ex dragged out the process of getting a parenting plan in place for 5 years - using a similar set of tricks. 

Results may vary by state - but it is very likely there is a motions court option you can go to while you wait for a final agreement.  You draft a petition that essentially says that this item cannot wait.  You outline how you tried to be reasonable and how your ex refused and you ask the court for an interim order on just this narrow topic. 

I had to do that for summer vacation 2 summers in a row, then got my final order which spelled out an exacting procedure for the summers.  THEN my ex argued about that for 4 months and I had to go to motions court to settle the question a 3rd year in a row. 

So, it does not end.  However, I think you might benefit from asking your lawyer what the options are for things like these.  I suspect there is a path.  Motions court in family law is designed for exactly this purpose.  It is short - only the lawyers go in.  They stand in line, they talk briefly to the judge and the judge makes an immediate, but temporary ruling.

Another reason to do this is that it builds the narrative that you are reasonable and your ex is not.  My judge got pretty tired of my ex causing issues.  I may have to pay to go to motions court 3 times a year - but I win on the small things I ask for EVERY time.

[Arkhangelsk]

Another thought - I think Penny Lane had a good model for talking to your kids.  I just wanted to toss out there (as I have in a few other threads) that I think a PD makes the standard advice of not involving the kids hugely problematic.  Their age matters - but that is the only that matters, I think.  I ask what my kids can comprehend.  And then I give them brief but totally honest answers based on that.  For context, mine are 7 and 9 and the 9 year old has some advanced abilities to comprehend this stuff.

The reason I say this is that when they were 4 & 6 and told that the divorce was happening, I shielded them a great deal.  All the counselors say to do so.  But, my ex used this fact to lie to them in massive ways, including convincing my older son to accuse me and my partner of abusing him.  We decided we had to be more honest.  It helped a great deal.  My son recanted his allegations and began to ask me a ton of questions.  Both kids have told me they are very glad for this, despite the fact that it is very hard to reconcile two sets of facts coming from people you love.  But that is the thing - if you do nothing, then they get distortions from one side and silence from the other.  And that hurts so very much.  I think the pain that comes with honesty is a pain we can better manage.

Again - again and skill level matters.  I tend to say something short, from my own perspective (I try to avoid talking about what their dad may or may not be saying).  Something like:

"I wanted to take you guys to _____ this year and I worked to make that happen.  But I was not able to and I am sorry that this year we will stay home."

Then see what sort of questions they ask.  You can tell them things like, "We are waiting for a judge to give us a set of rules for these things.  Until then, mom and dad have to work on it and we do not always agree."  In my experience, comments like this often get a response like, "Why can't you and dad agree?"  And I say, "I do not know, honey.  I think I made a proposal that was fair to me and you and your dad.  I am sorry it did not work out."

So the themes here are:
- This is about telling them your position and that you work to be fair;
- You do not know your ex's position;
- You are full of sympathy that they do not get to do this cool thing;
- You stick to the facts and avoid opinions about what people who are not you might think or do.

Check out a book called Co-Parenting with a Toxic Ex.  It has some good scripts for how to walk this line.

[sevenyears]

Arkhangelsk, thanks for your advice. I agree, the standard advice doesn't work, and puts us in a bad position vis a vis our kids when a PD is involved. My social worker said that I should be as honest as possible with our daughter. The GALs have said not to criticize or complain about the other spouse in front of the children (which he does all the time). So, I'm walking a fine line. Since the GALs have a big role in deciding our fate right now, I'm erring on the side of caution as much as possible. It broke my heart a couple of days ago when my son asked when we will go see grandma. I repeated what I told them earlier. I'll have to do that several times as he processes everything.

As for legal recourses: I did file in court at Christmas time to be able to travel with the children to grandparents (while also making sure they had part of the holiday with him). As soon as I did, he agreed in principle, and then we went through five rounds of negotiations with lawyers on the terms. I had to stomach a lot conditions I didn't like and pay his lawyer fees. That is part of his strategy - make it as financially painful as possible. So, I decided that I'm not going to play that game with him. If he can't cooperate and show some flexibility, then we don't go. I tried for three months to reach an agreement with him. I can't imagine how that is good for the children.  So, I've made a general file in court on annual summer parenting plans and am coming to terms with the fact that we won't go this summer. :-(

Thank you for the book recommendation. Several others on this board have also recommended it. I've started reading it.

[Arkhangelsk]

Uggghhhhh.  I know all about the 5 rounds of negotiations.  I am so sorry.

I stopped doing it.  I have committed to just spending the money in court.  I put forth a reasonable set of options (which he never takes), I ignore the long, rambling response and I go to the judge.  The last one was to get to sign the kids up for the science fair (because why would any parent want their kids to do THAT?!)  The judge knows us well by now.  She did not even let my ex-husband's lawyer speak.  She did yell at him a bit, and signed my proposed order that I be allowed to have the kids participate.  So I spent a cool grand to create the option for the kids. 

My ex responded by going on a campaign to get the kids to hate the science fair.....

So it is not like my strategy is working all that well either.  But, over time, the judge has learned that I show up with reasonable requests and my ex shows up with nonsense.  So I am hoping, over time, I at least get the freedom to do more things.  And the kids will simply have to keep growing in their ability to discern their father's manipulations. 

[sevenyears]

uuuggghhhh Arkhangelsk. I'm sorry you have to file in court so the kids can go to a science fair, and then your PD still tries to torpedo it for the kids. I'm afraid that's where we are heading too. If I were to file on something like that, the judge would probably rule in my PDs favor on the grounds that I'm "forcing my parenting style and choices on him." Filing for them to visit their grandparents would have been a wild card, so instead I made a general file that I can travel with the children during holidays to visit relatives. Meanwhile, I'm working on explaining this to the children in a non-judgemental, child-appropriate way that let's the understand the truth. How do you explain this to your kids?

[Penny Lane]

I agree with everything Arkhangelsk said about making sure the kids have the information they need. It is so terrible to tell them something that is going to hurt them. But better they know how the PD parent is than to make bad decisions later in life because they don't realize the truth.

Thanks in large part to this board, H and I have been talking about this a lot lately. When to tell the kids the truth, when to shield them.

It's a lot easier when their mom's name doesn't enter into the equation. Like when they have a mistaken assumption that CLEARLY came from their mom ("why won't you let me do X" when they've never asked to do X before now but BM threw a huge temper tantrum about it the night before.) In that case you can just correct the assumption ("of course you can do X, though not today because we have other plans.")

It's a lot harder when you're having to directly explain "your mom did this (or didn't do that)." Or, "what you said your mom told you is not true." Those are the conversations I struggle with the most.

Generally I would say, we try to have these conversations with an extremely light touch. I would say my #1 rule here is to NOT get into it when we, the adults, have raw feelings about the topic at hand. This is part of what led to my advice about what you, sevenyears, should say to your kids. Even if we do everything right, our disappointment/sadness/anger is likely to come through when we are still processing our own feelings about it. Sometimes, when BM does something that makes me mad and I know the kids are going to ask about it, I actually rehearse with DH what we're going to say in response, so we can hit the right tone.

This came up for me recently when DSS asked out of the blue "Is mom supposed to invite dad to my birthday parties?" I said yes, the rules are that she needs to invite him. DSS asked if it's just like a politeness thing or an actual RULE, and I said it's part of the rules that they both agreed to and that these are actual rules (ie the parenting plan). He dropped it and I thought about it some more - the last time BM had a birthday party for one of the kids, she hid it from DH. He found out at the last minute and couldn't go. I wanted to make sure DSS understood that his dad WANTED to go to his birthday party so I followed up and said: Just so you know, your mom doesn't always tell your dad so if you want him to go to your party you might need to mention it too him. And I added: and of course your dad will always invite your mom to your birthday parties with us, just like he did last year.

This was somewhat of an experiment for me - DSS has been asking a lot more about what he's hearing at his mom's house, and I've been trying to make sure he has facts without picking up on blame from me toward his mom. I'm wondering if she either told him that she doesn't have to invite DH to the kids' birthday parties, OR if she told him that Dh didn't invite her to the kids' parties last year when the reality is that she chose not to go.

Afterward, I think I said too much. It's a struggle. Say too little, and DSS comes away with the idea that his dad did something wrong or hurtful. Too much, and you feel like you're putting them in the middle or putting an unfair burden on them. Neither one feels good although I try hard to err on the side of saying too little rather than too much.

I guess my point is, there's no right answer here. There's no perfect set of words to comfort the kids AND make sure they understand what they need to of the situation AND don't pass any of your frustration onto them.

What do the kids say when you tell them that you and Daddy couldn't come to an agreement?

[sevenyears]

Penny Lane - you are doing a great job finding the best balance. It is hard to figure out what is too much and what is too little. And, it is sooooo hard not to put the children in the middle because PDs cause that to happen. It can't be avoided. I had once a court-ordered parenting coach tell me that "we" had to stop putting the children in the middle when I asked how to get my H to let me spend time with the children alone, which had been going on for months. DUH! Of course, I didn't want the children to be in the middle! But, what was I supposed to do? Give in and not spend time with me children without his presence, or keep fighting for that. I kept fighting for that time. I tried hard to keep the children from experiencing the fighting, but that sometimes was impossible. Now I don't know what to say to them. I don't say much, but they keep asking questions about that time - about other things, but about that time nonetheless. With respect to the trip - their reactions have mostly come since then. DS4 keeps asking when we will visit grandma. DD7 has been acting out lately. Part of this has to do with her FOO/BM. And, part of this has to do with her "current" parents (me and H) disappointing her. 

[Penny Lane]

I hear your frustration about the whole "not putting the kids in the middle stuff." Of course it's a good idea but when your ex is constantly shoving the kids in the middle of disputes ... then what? The advice falls down at that point because it assumes both parents want what's best for the kids. Whereas in your case you want what's best for the kids and your ex wants to "win." So frustrating.

Could you kind of redirect those questions? Something like:
KID: When are we going to see grandma again?
YOU: When do you want to see her again?
KID: This summer!
YOU: Well it's not going to work out this summer, should I try to make sure we can go next summer?
KID: Yeah!
YOU: In the meantime do you want to draw a special picture that we can send to grandma? (Or call her, or something like that?)

Keep on being your good mom self!

[sevenyears]

Thank you Penny Lane!

[sevenyears]

So sorry sevenyears. I'm sure it's a huge disappointment to not be able to see your family this year (and I imagine it's a time you especially need their support!)



I would ask, what is your goal in telling them? You say that giving them less details lets him off the hook, but I would say that giving them more details actually puts them in a tough spot. So, unfortunately, like so many other things, I think the thing to do here is swallow your frustration and give the kids a light, airy response to questions: "It didn't work out this year! Hopefully we can go next year. This summer we'll focus our time on (other fun activity nearby)." They're young enough that they'll take their emotional cues from you.

You deserve to be frustrated about this, I just think you don't want to unwittingly pass that on to them. Maybe you can vent to a friend or journal before you talk to them so that you can be the calm rock your kids need.

I do think there will be a day that the kids start asking questions about the "why." Someday they will start noticing that their dad doesn't follow through on plans, is unreliable, if they have a disappointment like this it often comes from their dad. And you can be there to gently guide them to the truth. But for the next few years (probably? the pattern seems to be that it starts to click at 10-12, that's certainly what I'm seeing with my stepkids) the best thing you can do for them is shield them from the disagreement and any conflict.

It's totally not fair, it sucks, just like so many other situations in coparenting with a person with a PD.

Penny and everyone, I'm reactivating this thread because this topic has become such an issue with my children. The children keep asking when they will visit grandma, and my daughter talks about how disappointed she was that we didn't go last summer. (Grandparents came to visit us over the holidays so that's part of the reason this keeps coming up). I've been saying that it know it is disappointing, I tried really hard but daddy and I couldn't reach an agreement and that I'm hopeful we'll reach one next summer. UOCPD XH has already told them that he agrees for the children and me to go there next summer. Tonight after talking to grandparents on the  phone, my DD7 said she was angry with me for lying because daddy agreed that we could go last summer, and that i said he didn't agree (I don't remember saying this, but she may have understood this through deduction since she is very perceptive). She believes that I cancelled the trip since I didn't want to see the grandparents, and that i refused to let him travel anywhere with them. She is angry because both daddy and I tell her different things. So, one of us must be lying. She figures I am lying since daddy told her first that I refused to let them go anywhere (I let him know that I did't want him going for longer than 10 days with the children because I was worried about his anger; however, I never refused to let him - and,  I most certainly never discussed this with the children). I told DD7 that I understand how disappointed and angry she is and how confusing it must be when we tell her different things. I said I can be responsible only for what I tell her and not what daddy says to her. I told her that I tell the truth, but, there are some conversations between me and daddy that I can't talk about with her because they are between me and him. I also asked why I would cancel our trip to see grandparents if daddy agreed, because I didn't want them to go somewhere with their father. She got defensive and said that it makes sense.

I'm not sure what to do. I doubt that I've said anything that would give her the impression that he refused to let us go, But, I can be very forgetful. That was a topic with her last week. I think that my xh had been letting her think that I ignore her. He certainly told her social worker that during our meeting with her last week. I don't want to deny that I said something in case I did say something that let her believe that (even if it is unlikely). But, at the same time, I want to make sure that I'm keeping with my main comment that I tried really hard to reach an agreement.

[Penny Lane]

Oh no sevenyears, I'm so sorry. It sounds like your ex is riling up the kids about this issue and then lying to them about it so that they'll be mad at you.

First of all, STOP DOUBTING YOURSELF. From where I'm sitting, it's clear that you didn't do anything wrong. Your ex is trying to drive a wedge between you and DD. And apparently gaslighting you through her from afar. The reason she believes all this is because HE IS LYING TO HER, plain and simple. Your job is to confidently and empathetically help her sort through it. I mean we all have failures as parents and it's good to do some self-reflection on whether you've messed up ... but Occam's razor is pretty clear here. There's one parent who's causing problems, and it's not you.

Unfortunately there's no really good answer here that will immediately solve the problem. But! Don't despair. What we have found at my house is that using consistent strategies with the kids when they're younger ends up paying off a lot when they're older. My point is, this too shall pass and the best thing you can do is stay calm and be a consistent presence for them.

We tried all of these strategies at various points  in similar situations. Maybe some of them will help you. Some of these are basically what you've already done - I'm just suggesting language to hone them and to better refocus the discussion away from the things your ex wants her to be mad at you about.

1. Try to keep the focus away from which parent said what and when, and instead focus on the facts and being forward-looking. You don't have to prove to your DD that you never told her that. Refocus her attention on what IS. "I'm glad to hear that daddy said we could go next year! He hasn't told me that. This is something that grownups should be discussing with each other, so I will try to talk to him about it again. I really hope we go too."

2. Do validate her feelings. With little kids it helps to explicitly name the feeling back to them. "It sounds like you are very disappointed and mad that you didn't get to see grandma and grandpa! And it sounds like you're confused and frustrated because you feel like you are hearing different reasons from me and your dad. That sounds very hard to navigate and I'm going to do my best to help you here. It's ok to be sad and disappointed."

3. When she's in a better place, ask her lots of questions. "What makes you think I don't want to see grandma and grandpa? Do you think I like seeing them? Do you think I want to see them?" "What makes you think I didn't want you to go on vacation with daddy? Do you think I like it when you have fun? Why wouldn't I want you to have fun when you're on vacation?" Hopefully her critical thinking will kick in and you can start giving her information in small doses. "I will tell you that I really want to see grandma and grandpa, and I really want you to be able to see them as well. I promise I'm doing everything I can to make this happen." "Even though your daddy and I aren't together I want you to have fun with him, on vacation or otherwise! I love you very much and want you to have the opportunity to do fun vacations with both parents."

4. Keep this in your back pocket: "I don't know why daddy told you that. What I do know is ..." And then you don't just say he's lying, you give her a piece of information that would lead to a logical conclusion that what he said isn't true. For example: "I don't know why daddy said he told me we could go on vacation last summer. What I do know is that I tried really hard to make an agreement with him but he never signed the paper that would have let me take you." (You probably don't want to say exactly this - it's really pulling her into the middle. But just an example of how you can say that what he's saying isn't true, without calling him a liar).

5. If she's saying that you stopped her from going on a trip with her dad or comes up with some other out of left field thing, it's OK to say that. "I'm not sure what you're talking about. This is the first I'm hearing about a trip to (wherever) with your dad. When he's ready to talk to me about the trip I'll be happy to discuss it with him."

6. If your ex is still blocking you from going, can you find the next best thing? Can your parents come visit you? Can you go see them next summer, just not for three weeks (I realize when you're going to another country it makes the most sense to go for a long block of time, but it might be worth the money to go for as long as you can, even if that's not long enough). Can you take the kids on another smaller trip to see other relatives? Maybe a day trip outing to somewhere fun? Can you have your parents send postcards or packages, and have the kids write cards back to them? Let the kids know that even if they can't do this one specific trip, that they can still connect with their relatives and also have fun vacations. If you go too far down this road you're just bribing the kids, which is not what I intend. But a little redirection is OK.

7. Don't let him get into your head! The best thing you can do for the kids is to present a calm, collected, CONFIDENT mom who loves them and who they can rely on to help them through this. If you seem shaken or question your previous actions, they're not going to feel comfortable that you can handle it. Similarly if you let it get into your head and you allow them to act badly because you feel bad, then that teaches them that they can push your buttons re: their dad and they will be rewarded. The very best thing you can do is treat this like other kid tantrums and help them work through the feeling as if this was routine. I know it's incredibly hard and much easier said than done. So I would say this is more of a constant goal where it's ok if you don't do it right every single time.

[sevenyears]

penny - thank you for your support and advice. It is just what I needed! I believe I generally project confidence in front of my kids and try realy hard to keep them out of the middle and not to make uocpd xh look like a bad guy. many of your strategies are similar to what I am doing. I will focus more on 1 and 3 too. And, I think you're right that he is trying - hard - to drive a wedge between me and the children. He and his brother broke off contact with their father for more than 10 years because their mother drove a wedge between them. He worships his mother and is repeating a lot of what she did.

Part of the reason that I'm worried about my DD is that she really has trouble with expressing her anger. She is a long-term foster child. We have an appointment with her social worker in two weeks so that she can determine whether or not to recommend her for counselling or therapy of some sort. My daughter has a lot of baggage because of her FOO and the child welfare system, and I have not found the family court and child welfare system to be very supportive either. ExH knows exactly how to spin her up, as well as me. He does it so surrepticiously that it is very hard for others to recognize.

Penny and others, I appreciate all your support and advice. I turn to it a lot. Often I just lurk, which is already helpful. Turning to you directly for support is such a lift for me.