Wife with Covert Narcissism

[NBRiverGuy]

Brand new to the forum and the concept of personality disorders. I have been married to my wife for 18 years. We've been together for 23. I've known for a long time that she had mental health problems, but over the holidays I realized that she most likely has a PD. After finding this site, along with a number of studies, I am convinced that she is a Covert Narcissist. She is in therapy and I have attended a few sessions with her. Her therapist has told her that she has anger issues and that she manipulates people through her own victimhood, but has stopped short of actually diagnosing her as a Covert Narcissist. I told her after a Thanksgiving Day blowup that, if things don't change significantly, I am moving on and she seemed to take it to heart. Then, there was another incident over Christmas. She apologized and dismissed it as a backslide. On New Year's morning, she said, "This is going to be a year of change. You'll see." I have asked her if she knows what change looks like and I am not sure that she does. I watched a video by Doctor Ramani that defined her disorder to a T. I am assuming that it would be a mistake to share this video with her, but would like some guidance. Ugh. I appreciate all of you and what you are going through. This is exhausting.

[notrightinthehead]

Yes it is. Welcome to this forum! Join us survivors and walk the long and winding road to recovery from narcissistic abuse with us.
I strongly recommend you start reading the Toolbox and the book 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist' by Margalis Fjelstad as a start. Then begin to implement the strategies from the Toolbox.
You are not alone! See you around on the boards.

[NBRiverGuy]

Thanks. I spent the better part of my downtime at work this week researching personality disorders before stumbling on this site. I read through the entire toolbox and the sections defining the different disorders. I'm sure that I will have to revisit the toolbox often. Anyways, after reading a million articles I know my wife is a covert narcissist and has gradually gotten worse over the past 10 years. Like I mentioned, she is in therapy but her therapist has not officially diagnosed her with a PD. My wife has been seeing her off and on for years, but really started regular sessions about seven months ago. Last month, her counselor referred her to a psychiatrist. Do you think that her therapist did this because she has actually diagnosed my wife, but not told her? I read that covert narcissists especially do not respond well to being told that they are narcissists. Is there any benefit in sharing articles about the disorder with my wife, or is that just a recipe for disaster? This is all uncharted territory for me so I apologize if these are stupid questions.

[escapingman]

Hi and welcome to the forum. It is exhausting living with a person with a PD. What is your wife actually in therapy for? My ex got into therapy for her eating disorder, very common with eating disorders for people with NPD. Anyway she tried to triangulate me with the therapist and after every session she told me what I have to change, never anything she needed to change. In the end we had couples sessions with a new therapist and my ex used the sessions to cry about how mean I was to her. The funny bit ( not funny really) was that the reason for the couples therapy was that I wanted to divorce her for her behaviour and she used the sessions to complain about me.....

Your issue now is that you have started to wake up, when you see you see and there is no going back. Educate yourself and protect yourself. You got to decide now if you can continue living with your wife, and if so how to protect yourself, or if you need to start planning to leave her.

You gotta hell of a journey in front of you, whatever you decide. Remember to put yourself and your need FIRST. Good luck, we are here to be with you on your journey.

[NBRiverGuy]

She started therapy 11 years ago after her mother died. Her mother was physically and emotionally abusive throughout her life, even into her adult years. Her death exacerbated my wife's symptoms of anger and self-pity. After a year, I suggested that perhaps a therapist could help her process her feelings and move on. She did not resist. I wrongly assumed that it was depression and have been working under that assumption for many years. I finally hit a wall over the holidays this year and laid my feelings on the line. I still wasn't thinking personality disorder. I just said that if her behavior did not change, I was leaving. She was receptive and said that she wanted to fix things.
On New Year's Day, I was talking to my best friend about what was happening and he said, "Well, that's gonna be a tough one. You know. Since she's a narcissist." He was not belittling, just very matter of fact as if I had known all along. I just nodded and then spent the week googling types of narcissism. Low and behold, I discovered the lesser-known "covert narcissist" and had my "lightbulb moment."
escapingman - I had a similar experience to you with couple's counseling. Wife launched into an angry diatribe about my family (mom, dad, sister) at the beginning of the session and went on until the therapist stopped her. She said, "You have been talking for 15 minutes straight. That is not how couple's counseling works." Wife became very defensive and said that we were ganging up on her. Therapist said that if she was unwilling to hear other sides, then we were wasting our time and money. Never went back.
We have currently set aside one day a week to discuss our (her) progress and where we are. It's tough to tell if she is trying to change any behaviors because they usually come out in social gatherings which I have been avoiding for a while. I have given myself a deadline of Thanksgiving to either see real progress with her or move out. I am trying to be very objective in my evaluations and have already accepted the fact that moving out is the more likely conclusion.

[NBRiverGuy]

Hi NB,

Welcome!

You asked: " Is there any benefit in sharing articles about the disorder with my wife, or is that just a recipe for disaster?"

IMHO, it is completely, unequivocally, 100% a mistake.

From all your reading you likely know that PDs don't change. One of the reasons they don't change is they don't believe they have a problem that needs changing. Everyone else in the world is the problem—usually their spouse first and foremost.

For example, when my uPD wife has explosive episodes, the reason is always outside of herself—it's never her fault.

What do you hope to get from sharing those articles with her? A magical lightbulb moment where she realizes how messed up she is and gets healed? I've never, ever seen that happen. Most likely what you'll get is abuse: accusations that you don't love her, you think she's horribly messed up, you think you are perfect and she's the only problem ... victimization, gaslighting, manipulation.

I don't think there is a Narcissist on the planet who has read an article about narcissism and said, "that's me, I need to stop doing that."

It's interesting to me that your wife is talking about change. In my experience, the only reason a Narcissist would claim "change" is some self-serving motive. They never think they need to change ... it's always everyone else that is the problem. I would guess the therapist hasn't used this word because it's generally accepted you don't tell a narcissist they are one. My cynical view is your wife's claims of "change" is a form of lovebombing to regain control of you, at which point all the old behaviors return.

 Read up on the IDD cycle and karpman's drama triangle.

From your writing, you seem heavily focused on wanting her to change. If she truly is a Narcissist, the #1 thing you need to wrap your mind around is she likely will never change. If that's true, then what do you do? IMO your next step is to focus on yourself and your needs. Establish boundaries. Learn how to employ MC and GR and noJADE and other tools us non's use to navigate life with PDs. If you're serious about leaving, start figuring out what that looks like. Hire an attorney.

I am sorry you are at this place, it is very difficult to realize these things but it is the first step on a path of healing.

user

You are correct on all accounts. This is all new to me and I am perhaps still in the denial phase.

[Poison Ivy]

What changed behaviors would you like your wife to exhibit? I ask because it is hard to determine whether progress toward a goal is being made if one hasn't defined the goal.

Example: In the months before I filed for divorce in 2015, I asked my then-husband to do a few things that, if he had done them, might have persuaded me that he was willing to change to save our marriage: get paid for his family caregiving work by check instead of cash (he took care of his parents, and his dad insisted on paying him "under the table"); and come to our house, 150 miles from his parents' house, once per month. H did neither. More to the point here, these changed behaviors would have been specific, clear, and measurable.

[NBRiverGuy]

"What changed behaviors would you like your wife to exhibit? I ask because it is hard to determine whether progress toward a goal is being made if one hasn't defined the goal."

Ivy. Since I made my declaration to my wife that the end was imminent, I scheduled a session with my own therapist. Just had one session so far, but I told him what was going on. He said basically the same thing as you. If I tell her that I want to see change from her, I need to give her concrete, measurable goals. "Stop being selfish in conversations and stop having angry outburst in public" will mean nothing to her. I am working with my therapist to define what change looks like to me so that I can convey that in a meaningful and measurable way to her. I'll let you know what we come up with.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

NBRiverGuy -

My exPD was in therapy a long time; however, the focus was on his childhood and regarding our marriage, it was mostly how I trigger him.  Ridiculous - I think he manipulated therapy and/or it only validated for him that I was the problem.

GR works - it can be challenging, but it really works (at least for me). 

My suggestion would be to focus on yourself and what you enjoy and do it.  Don't let the PD's mood/anger stop you from living your life.  I wish I had done that years ago.

[LemonLime]

Hi NBRG,
Welcome!  We're glad you're here.
I agree with others that sharing articles with her is a mistake.  And that her therapy is likely not anything about her changing, it's really about how others should change to accommodate her.

My uPD sib is in therapy now, apparently.  I was heartened to hear that until she told me that it's all about solving her husband's FOO issues (and he does have a terrible history of physical abuse as a child) and blah blah blah.   Then she raged at my mom and me about some unrelated topic and I guess I had my answer....therapy was not helping her with her PD.

My concern would be that your wife might be clever enough to string you along with the promise of change, and that you waste your precious life waiting for change that never comes.   I don't want you to have to look back on that and regret it someday.  We obviously only live once and can't regain those days/weeks/months/years.   It's one of my biggest regrets as I get older that I wasted so much time on Narcs.

Best of luck and please keep posting.

[SonofThunder]

Hi NB,

Welcome!

You asked: " Is there any benefit in sharing articles about the disorder with my wife, or is that just a recipe for disaster?"

IMHO, it is completely, unequivocally, 100% a mistake.

From all your reading you likely know that PDs don't change. One of the reasons they don't change is they don't believe they have a problem that needs changing. Everyone else in the world is the problem—usually their spouse first and foremost.

For example, when my uPD wife has explosive episodes, the reason is always outside of herself—it's never her fault.

What do you hope to get from sharing those articles with her? A magical lightbulb moment where she realizes how messed up she is and gets healed? I've never, ever seen that happen. Most likely what you'll get is abuse: accusations that you don't love her, you think she's horribly messed up, you think you are perfect and she's the only problem ... victimization, gaslighting, manipulation.

I don't think there is a Narcissist on the planet who has read an article about narcissism and said, "that's me, I need to stop doing that."

It's interesting to me that your wife is talking about change. In my experience, the only reason a Narcissist would claim "change" is some self-serving motive. They never think they need to change ... it's always everyone else that is the problem. I would guess the therapist hasn't used this word because it's generally accepted you don't tell a narcissist they are one. My cynical view is your wife's claims of "change" is a form of lovebombing to regain control of you, at which point all the old behaviors return.

 Read up on the IDD cycle and karpman's drama triangle.

From your writing, you seem heavily focused on wanting her to change. If she truly is a Narcissist, the #1 thing you need to wrap your mind around is she likely will never change. If that's true, then what do you do? IMO your next step is to focus on yourself and your needs. Establish boundaries. Learn how to employ MC and GR and noJADE and other tools us non's use to navigate life with PDs. If you're serious about leaving, start figuring out what that looks like. Hire an attorney.

I am sorry you are at this place, it is very difficult to realize these things but it is the first step on a path of healing.

user

Another warm welcome to Out of the FOG!  You have been good advice thus far in the thread. I second NRITH's recommendation of the book by Fjelstad and users's experienced opinion and advice. You are not alone sir.  We all walk these trails together so you around the boards!

SoT

[LemonLime]

Fjelstad's book is one of the best I've read on this subject, and I've read quite a few.
Friends who have read the book have said the same.  Excellent resource.

[NBRiverGuy]

Big thanks to everyone for the advice and support. I'm super overwhelmed by all of this right now. At this time last week, I didn't really know what a PD was. Now I realize that I have been living with and enabled one for the past 20 years. Big pill to swallow.

[downwiththefog]

@NBRiverGuy it took me more years than you to realise I've been living with an uPDw, quite possibly a covert NP.
I went through lightbulb, despair, made a mess by attempting to explain to her, change her, pointing to a book, attempting a divorce then dragging her to therapy where I said all that I had repressed for years when walking on eggshells.
It all fired back. Anything I had said it is now used against me.
However painful this journey of discovery of PD has been, at some point her continuous complaints, accusations, enraging ... started to flow around me without too much impact. I now try to take the role of an observer. It may be my version of MC. I try to enjoy the pleasant times and ignore the bad ones.
This site, this forum and its experienced advice helped a lot. You landed in the right place. Welcome

PS my favourite book is Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward and Donna Frazier

[NBRiverGuy]

[/quote]

This is really important knowledge. I made similar mistakes to downwiththefog: trying to explain, going to couple's counseling and spilling my guts. All of it is STILL used against me. If you can skip that step you'll be much further along than both of us. SKIP the part where you:

a) try to change her
b) try to explain her condition to her
c) tell her how it has made you feel/what it has done to you.

All 3 of those things are disastrous. Skip to the part where you set boundaries and take care of yourself.
[/quote]

In my own self reflection, I am beginning to see that she has used so much of what I have said against me to make me look bad in front of friends and family members. It was done in such a covert/innocent way that I didn't realize what she was doing at the time. I would confront her privately afterwards and say, "I told you that in confidence. Why did you repeat it?" "You didn't tell me it was a secret. I didn't know." Well, in my mind it was not really a "secret." I just shared a vulnerability thinking that it was understood that I would not want it repeated. Until reading about PDs, I blamed myself for not specifying that it was just between us in advance. Looking back, it probably would not have mattered. And really looking back, I probably did on several occasions.

[1footouttadefog]

Sorry you are dealing woth this.  After so many years, there is alot to unpack. 

Be kind to yourself.  Allow grieving.  Processing your own role in all of it is a grief in and of itself. Ask my how I know. 

One thing that stood out to me os you mentioning that alot of the behaviors come out in public or social gatherings.

It's very common for pd people to ruin ir take over everything from the non, especially any outsode sources of pleasure or social connection. Music, art, dining, sightseeing any form of pleasure that is not focused on them. 

Parallel structures might be helpful in this regard to make sure your needs are met.  A separate friend group, separate Hobbie ir club meetings and activities a different gym/fitness center. 

You habe a date in mind if next TG, cool, bit if you find you still habe to work on yourself, or logistics or are not ready that is okay also.

Take care, retain or regain your health so you make decisions from a place of strength

 

 

[NBRiverGuy]

Parallel structures might be helpful in this regard to make sure your needs are met.  A separate friend group, separate Hobbie ir club meetings and activities a different gym/fitness center. 

Great advice. I think a lot of that has occurred naturally. We stopped being invited to gatherings as a couple to the point that we don't really have "shared" friends anymore. I'm still able to hang with the men during "guys nights" and I still have friendly relationships with all of their wives. There was never any point where any of them said to her, "We don't want to be friends with you anymore," it just became obvious to me over time. I doubt if she even noticed because they would not play into her self-pity and she said she never considered them "true" friends.
Her "true friends" are a small group of enablers and I've noticed that she does not bring them around me. I now recognize through her stories that one of them likely has her own problems. Two of her adult children have no contact with her and her son will not let her see her grandchildren. Of course, as my wife's friend explains it, it is because her daughter-in-law has turned him against her.
The others are empaths, like me, who are willing to listen to her complain endlessly. I'm pretty sure that one of them has cut her off, as I heard her say last Summer that, "she only calls me when she needs something." I know that wasn't true. Another upset her a few weeks ago after my wife was trying to offer unsolicited parenting advice, and her friend set her own boundaries by basically saying, "Mind your own business when it comes to how I raise my kid," but in a nicer way. I know it is just a matter of time before she runs these women off and I'm dreading the fallout.

[spunout21]

Hi NB Riverguy,  I just read your first post and wanted to say, that I hear you and see you.  Living with a person with a narcissistic pd can be so exhausting. Sending some good positive vibes toward you and some care toward your exhaustion.  May you find ways to claim moments in your days for peace, wonder at small things and connection to your values, what brings pleasantness to your moment and what matters to you.  The behaviours of our loved ones can drain us and disorient us from seeing what we need to keep the tank topped up.  Thanks for sharing and finding this forum.

And thank you for your contribution toward me.  Until now I have been trying to figure out if my uPD partner has BPD (had a breakthrough re. this 2 years ago) and then after reading your post, I looked up the description of covert narcissim by Dr Ramani that you mentioned and wow, what an eye opener.  Watching this has helped me recognise  his behaviours and responses to things for what they are and give a name to it - of course he is not in this mode all the time, but when things get bad, these patterns are so close to what I observe and experience.  I now believe he is on the CN spectrum and we're just now emerging from another vulnerability wave/cycle where myself and kids paid the price.  Interestingly, his big "flare ups" as I think of them, occur whenever we plan and go on family holiday  - which I ended up cutting short this week due to his behaviour.  The fun of sharing time together is hijacked by his bad moods, discontent, controlling behaviour, all or nothing approach to everything and victimhood.  Different to your wife however, his worst behaviour is kept out of public view for the most part.    I read others posts and think you've got a really supportive response here with lots of great advice.   I think it is positive that your wife is seeing a psychologist and willing to work toward change.  Maybe some change is possible, however only you know where is your line and how long you can afford to wait for that change.   I have over time seen quite a bit of change in my partner, so that the waves are much fewer and further between.  However, each wave takes us right back each time  - which is exhausting and life draining.  I am so glad to read that you too have your own therapist - it's so important to have your own safe space to keep reality checking re. what is fair and reasonable behaviour and keep feet on ground and eyes wide open.   

Re. your question on the sharing of the video re. covert narcissim, I would agree to avoid sharing a direct analysis or diagnosis however I wonder if it could be useful to share the videos resources you have found with the therapist she is seeing? Since you have been already invited into the sessions before which indicates she is interested in your perspective or input?  In my experience, when a therapist that myself and partner were both seeing confronted my partner by telling him his behaviours and attitudes are selfish, my partner cancelled the therapist and we never went back - so could be also worth pre-empting any sharing with the therapist with a recommendation for caution here. My guess is that the referral to the Psychiatrist is a way to help your wife get more feedback and clarity whilst keeping the therapeutic relationship in tact.  If she is willing to engage with a psychiatrist then hopefully that's a good step forward for her (and you).

Hang in there mate, and keep your feet on the ground in any way you can - keep hanging out with your friends, and doing things that restore your energy each day in small ways.  Take care.

[NBRiverGuy]

Spunout21-I have been wrestling with the idea of sending those articles to my wife's therapist all week. But, then this concept of "boundaries" kept tugging at my conscience. Wouldn't that be a violation of my wife's boundaries? Not to mention infringing on her therapist's ethical boundaries? Her therapist suggested that she involve me, but my wife was the one who ultimately had the choice to invite me. In the end, it just felt underhanded even if I thought it was for the good of her progress. But, believe me. The thought has been a constant badger in my brain.

[square]

I think you're right. Just keep learning and thinking. Your wife's therapist either already gets it or won't, no benefit to sending articles to them.

There is no benefit to the therapist informing your wife of any NPD diagnosis. Your wife would just scream "victim" and quit, and it would add to the narcissistic injury.

I was just curious why you set Thanksgiving as the deadline? Totally honest question, I see no problem with it whatsoever. But wondered if that was a year from a particular incident, or if the holidays are particularly awful (they are known PD triggers, ugh), or maybe something else.