Emotional Abuse and Separation/Divorce

SonofThunder · July 09, 2021, 06:52:09 AM

Hello fellow Out of the FOG friends,

In a recent wonderful discussion held here on Biblical marital obligations, we were discussing the differences that some of us have regarding the Bible's teaching on separation and divorce related to subjects other than infidelity. Infidelity is very clearly a Biblical grounds for divorce.

As a man married 30 years to a highly manipulative emotional, time and financial uPDw abuser, I believe that continual emotional abuse is Biblical grounds for separation and divorce. Because of my prolonged mental exposure and dealings with manipulative abuse, my doctor and myself both agree that I am now dealing with physical and psychological attributes caused by the prolonged exposure, therefore the emotional exposure has now become physical abuse. My uPDw does not directly physically abuse.

I desire to continue the very interesting and very civil discussion here versus piggybacking on the thread of another post I did not create. In the past discussion, I brought up Matthew 19:3-9 to discuss why Jesus included the words "Therefore, what God has joined together..." in order to discuss, using my own marriage as an example, whether my marriage was a God-joining or a man-joining. I believe my marriage was one joined by man, as we met, dated and married while in the sin of sex and then also living together pre-marriage, which is not a Biblical method for finding a spouse. In hindsight, there was plenty of love-bombing as well by my uPDw and the 'honeymoon' ended very shortly after the legal marriage began, as the IDD (idealization, devaluation and discard) cycles began and repeated themselves over and over, with IDD attempts still ongoing at this time.

Another member discussed 1 Samuel: 25 to support the belief that marriage is for life (unless God separates) and the story of Abagail, Nabal and David as an example of a wife married to a very harsh man, and Abagail being used by God to keep David from taking revenge in his own hands vs allowing God to direct the situation. There are some, such as my mother who is married 60+ years to a uNPDh, who accept a role as a marital 'martyr' by remaining in a emotional and financially abusive marriage, as an extension of their faith (she also now deals with physical symptoms) and there are some who desire to depart from their abusive partner who feel trapped because of religion.

*With regard to physical symptoms as a result of emotional trauma, I recommend the book 'The Body Keeps the Score'.

To start, here is an article I found in a quick search on the net. My belief aligns with this article; that emotional abuse, in addition to a spouse not upholding the marriage vows/covenant, is Biblical grounds for separation and divorce.

Looking forward to fruitful and respectful discussion,

SoT

https://christiancounseling.com/blog/uncategorized/is-emotional-abuse-grounds-for-biblical-separation/

SonofThunder · July 09, 2021, 07:52:21 AM

Here is a pros/cons article on one of the referenced books in the original article link I provided. I will continue to chase these books and articles further down the rabbit hole, as I seek further Biblical texts in order to provide myself a fair personal and balanced assessment of my own opinion, and in fruitful discussion of this thread.

Personal opinions on this topic, in relation to ones own beliefs and ones own experiences with PD's in marriage are desired and welcomed on this thread.

http://thebriefing.com.au/2009/11/not-under-bondage/

SoT

SonofThunder · July 09, 2021, 11:06:37 AM

In the original article at the top of this thread, is a link to a video. It seems the author of the blog post, highlighted more text in the blog than necessary, creating a potentially broken YTube link for the reader. Therefore, below is the correct video link. In order to discuss emotional abuse in context to Biblical views of separation and divorce, a possible defining of emotional abuse is needed, in which the author of the article and video, provides her opinion in this video.

Feel free to comment, in this open discussion of the thread topic about the topic in general and your personal opinions and experiences, as well as any resources (links to articles/videos) and provided Biblical verses, that participants provide as support to their opinions.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dAb9vBzaV9Q

SoT

SonofThunder · July 11, 2021, 07:15:29 AM

No discussion takers so far and no problem. I will continue to journal on my own thread. I have not read the books that were mentioned in the above links but reading book reviews can sometimes be like reading CliffsNotes, when I'm looking for references and pros/cons.

The YouTube video and other videos by the author/counselor were not focused on PD's but some of the discussions on difficult marriages and emotional abuse fit nicely into the PD realm. I'm not certain whether the counselor is well aware of PD's and frankly I believe many pastors and Christian counselors are extremely ill-equipped to counsel a couple when a PD is present. In the past, I've read SO many Christian marriage help books and because of PD's they are of zero assistance.

Sure, if there are two mentally healthy adults in a relationship and one or both have veered off course because of sin, those book's advice, because they mirror Gods design for relationships and marriage, can be of assistance. But insert a disorder into the mix, and no amount of good 'advise' is going to have any effect imo. In reality, that advice can be used oppositely than designed, as it becomes a larger Christian facade for the PD to hide behind and larger PD demands of the target as the counseling efforts become weaponized by the PD against the target companion.

I also explored the Biblical verses mentioned in the above links and it's leading down other rabbit holes, but the three main themes I gleaned from the verses, that I will be highly considering in further exploration are;

1. The definition and attributes of a 'Covenant' as Biblically defined. Imo, covenants between God and man and covenants between mankind and mankind are slightly different because we are not God. Both are present in the Bible. Covenants between mankind and itself, require both sides in the covenant to participate, or the covenant is broken/never existed.

2. God clearly walks away from active relationship with those in which he has made a covenant, because of repetitive sin, and he lets the sinner know what it will take to restore the relationship. God never breaks a covenant but clearly breaks relationship. Love never ends regardless of the state of the relationship. (Therefore this helps me to solidify my current definition of love= another thread I started a while back).

3. God watches, waits and allows tests of true repentance of the sinner, before any relationship restoration occurs. Again, Gods covenant and love never ends, as His will isn't thwarted by sinners.

I will be considering all three when applying to human relationships, marriage covenants and the sin of relative emotional abuse.

SoT

JustKeepTrying · July 11, 2021, 10:29:01 AM

SoT,

As you have seen in my other responses, I am a person of faith but I am not an evangelical or able to quote the bible as proficiently as you. Of course, I have read it cover to cover multiple times but the quoting - well, not my forte.

I will add though what my priest counseled me to see if it adds to the conversation. I will also say that he said I could pursue annulment and would have grounds for it. Keep in mind - not biblical but certainly religious.

He said a person with PD does not enter marriage in good faith. PD is a mental illness and therefore they can not make the vow with their whole heart and soul to another person - they don't have the capacity. Today, you can not even have a shot of liqueur before a wedding - nor really drink a lot the night before as it may impair your ability to fully understand and commit to your vows. In the Catholic faith, the vow is to each other and we and the priest are only witnesses to this sacrament.

I found that interesting and comforting to know that while I won't be pursuing an annulment, I could. It would state clearly that this was not a God-sanctioning marriage.

Interesting and helpful for me to work through my issues with religion and faith.

SeaBreeze · July 11, 2021, 10:31:38 AM

SoT -

Just wanted you to know I'll be checking out the links you've shared when I have a safe time and place to visit them. Thanks for sharing and please continue doing so.

Free2Bme · July 11, 2021, 05:40:58 PM

SoT,

Thanks for starting this thread, I will check out the links you referenced.

This is a sensitive topic, but one that should be discussed, IMO. I realize there are different viewpoints, here's my story...

I wrestled with my decision to separate from my abusive updh of 20 years. I did not want a divorce, I wanted a healthy marriage that lasted until death.

I prayed, petitioned, spent a lot of time in 1 & 2 Peter trying to understand the application of suffering for doing what is right in the context of scripture that denounces abuse. I confessed my inability to fully understand what was best in my situation, no provision for the flesh, etc. Concluding that separating would only increase the abuse, as would staying, and I would resort to divorce in order to protect children and myself.

I am not a bible scholar by any means. Some theologians that I respect may not agree with my choice.
However, I entered into an agreement with someone who was knowingly deceptive about who he was. I was guilty of being misguided, he was guilty of being predatory and did not seek my (our) greater good as a family.

After years of counsel (professional and church leadership), including an intervention where our children expressed their distress from the abuse, he remained unrepentant and unwilling. He covered his sin and blamed me and the children saying we had the anger problem.

I believe there are many forms of abandonment (1 Corinthians 7:15). IMO, my H abandoned his God given role (protector, leader, gentle, kind, self-controlled, etc.), therefore H abandoned the marriage. God has called me to peace, there can be no peace in a divided home.

~free

SonofThunder · July 13, 2021, 08:26:42 PM

JustKeepTrying and Free2Bme, thank you for your detailed replies, insights, and input!

I am certainly no scholar on the Bible, but I do enjoy detailed research, deep thinking and analysis and lol am adept at copy/paste. Both of you touched on a similar subject with regard to the counsel received and the inabilities of PD's to truly understand and enter into a marriage covenant. In addition, the abandonment tie-ins as well and Free2Beme's Biblical references.

This subject of emotional abuse (and therefore resulting in mental/physical abuse) is a sensitive topic as stated, and imo, a grey area Biblically. Regarding grey areas, I have found over time, that the answer to my searching; the answer that satisfies my seeking heart; my attempt to be sensitive to Christ's leading, is found in the grey area teaching + other related teachings as well. But I also believe that grey area subjects give some wiggle room for interpretation vs other subjects that are not grey.

As Ive stated previously, I believe one of the most crucial verses on the subject of separation/divorce is Matthew 19: 3-9. I also believe that Jesus' statement at the end of verse 6 "...therefore what God has joined together" are the 6 words that the entire subject hinges upon. Those words imo, are crucial to understanding the strength of the union of the couple (as both of you stated is not truly a legit covenant if one has not the ability to carry out the agreement) and therefore the level of weakness of the union as well.

If the union is formed on the sinful selfish desires of one person, or both people, the union is weak. In contrast, if the union is formed between two people who in their hearts, understand the covenant and strive to follow the teachings of God, the union is strong. But Jesus is saying that at the end of verse 6, that mankind's sin is powerful enough to tear apart even a strong marital union.

I believe his statement at the front of verse 6 is the grey area, and imo, determining if a marriage is one that God joined or mankind joined. In my experience with PD's, the IDD cycle (Idealize, Devaluation, Discard), the PD was a PD prior to the marriage, but there was deception occurring during the dating, in order for the PD to land a target caretaker for a spouse. Idealization (lovebombing) is a very common occurrence is marriages to PD's and lovebombing is, imo, deception.

As an example of deception in the Bible, I'm considering the teaching of Romans 16:17-20, as the new converts are very easily led astray to serve the sinful desires of mankind.

From the New International Version:

Verse 17: I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18: For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

As I apply the idea of deception to a covenant between two people in marriage, then is the covenant actually legitimate? As I apply the sinful and hurtful selfish behaviors of a PD in a marriage, is the covenant legitimate, since a covenant requires both parties to participate in the covenant vows? If one party was deceived from the beginning and then after the wedding, experiences devaluation and possible discard (both imo are emotional abuse along with the lies of love bombing), is this union one that "God has joined together" or is it (again Romans 16:18 ) "....not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites".

There are plenty of other grey areas in the Bible. The use of alcohol is one for example where the follower of God must search many areas to define what is acceptable for themselves, regarding subjects such as drunkenness (define it), abstaining for various reasons such as alcoholism in a parent, leading by example, balanced and careful use and appreciation of the craft, physical health and so on. Alcohol is clearly consumed and it seems Christ makes the best wine available ;-) as demonstrated by his first miracle.

I look forward to more fruitful discussion on the thread and thanks again for the input.

SoT

JustKeepTrying · July 13, 2021, 09:50:51 PM

For me, and my religious upbringing as a recovering Catholic, I believe there is growth in the grey. It is in those grey areas that I find God resides as we try to manage our lives based on Christian principles.

For example, I believe by questioning and asking (see your research) we develop a deeper understanding of faith outside the confines (or red tape) of organized religion. Faith becomes stronger between God and self. Beyond man-made religion.

So it is there I rest and I pray that my divorce is not a sin against God. In my heart, outside of scripture, I can not believe he would want me to remain in a situation of abuse. I tried for more than 30 years to help my OCPDxh. Tried and tried to keep to that vow of for better or worse, in sickness and health. But in the end, I realized that he did not view our marriage as I did. And I couldn't change that. And I had to save myself. Respect this life that God gave me.

I struggle with organized religions and there are so many issues - but that does not mean I don't have faith. God talks to me, I listen and I try to live my life as He wishes.

Good discussion.

SonofThunder · July 13, 2021, 11:00:10 PM

Quote from: JustKeepTrying on July 13, 2021, 09:50:51 PM
For me, and my religious upbringing as a recovering Catholic, I believe there is growth in the grey. It is in those grey areas that I find God resides as we try to manage our lives based on Christian principles.

For example, I believe by questioning and asking (see your research) we develop a deeper understanding of faith outside the confines (or red tape) of organized religion. Faith becomes stronger between God and self. Beyond man-made religion.

So it is there I rest and I pray that my divorce is not a sin against God. In my heart, outside of scripture, I can not believe he would want me to remain in a situation of abuse. I tried for more than 30 years to help my OCPDxh. Tried and tried to keep to that vow of for better or worse, in sickness and health. But in the end, I realized that he did not view our marriage as I did. And I couldn't change that. And I had to save myself. Respect this life that God gave me.

I struggle with organized religions and there are so many issues - but that does not mean I don't have faith. God talks to me, I listen and I try to live my life as He wishes.

Good discussion.

JKT, I agree with the points you made in your wonderful reply. I firmly agree with "growth in the grey" and I believe our relationship with God is at its best in the grey areas as well; as we glean truth from all over scripture; from being sensitive to God's opening and closing doors in our lives (including opening one to get out..🤣 n from prayerful communication as we fellowship with God in very real and raw areas in life, just as you stated in paragraph two.

Your third paragraph is so powerfully written. Imo those that have a relationship with God and desire to apply God's truth and wisdom to these very difficult situations, have a wider berth in these grey areas, for individual interpretation and application and I believe they are purposefully grey by God, to facilitate fellowship with him in these difficult life situations. Love cannot exist without freedom and God didn't create puppets, therefore the grey areas are a loving inclusion by God in his teaching and to allow freedom and foster relationship.

I also agree with your last paragraph. I find it very difficult to consider the confines and entrapments of organized religion and sticky situations where non-psych trained church leaders give counsel, with very little real knowledge of PD's, putting abused people in very taxing mental struggles. I will counsel with God and with medically trained professionals if needed, as well as others on the same trail, such as us here on Out of the FOG, but that is all. Hebrews 4: 14-26 which teaches that Jesus is my empathizing, sinless high priest counselor, not another sinful human, untrained in personality disorders.

My mother has been married to my uNPDf for 60 years and she has paid a severe mental price for doing so, as he abuses her emotionally and financially as well as manipulates time and situations terribly. But I have heard her tell me over again that her remaining over 6 decades is her 'thorn in the flesh'. One of the concepts I believe many don't consider is what the Bible doesn't focus on as it relates to Biblical stories that involve suffering. Most times Biblical stories show that God will use suffering to teach and purify an individual or group/nation. In these stories the focus in on the life and ultimate will of God being carried out through a human life over time.

Joseph is a good example of this, and the story of Joseph's suffering at the hands of many along his journey, while living a pure life in relationship with God. But do we ever take the time to consider the other people's perspectives in these stories, when the spotlight is only on Joseph's scenes? The focus in on Joseph and the unraveling of Gods plans to preserve the Israelites through the twists and turns of Joseph's life. But, prior to Joseph was his dad Jacob, and Jacob was a trained manipulator who's faith was weak at best. It wasn't until Jacob was an old man and starving to death in the famine that was sweeping the continent, that his faith matured.

The Bible focuses on the incredible story of Joseph and the irony of his relationship with his brothers and his quick rise to Egyptian power and insight and prophetic ability to predict and plan (in the good times) for the coming famine. But let's not forget that just a few chapters back, the focus was on Jacob. While the plot twists to Joseph, Jacob is facing the harshest time in his life and is so desperate for food, he sends his boys to Egypt to get grain. That famine was so deep and widespread, that even the Nile River coming out of Africa, stopped watering the Egyptian farmland. This was a continental famine.

Jacob is tested so severely in the famine and his ability to manipulate his way to profitability is all dried up, while Joseph is living high on the hog in Egypt. But Jacob's suffering is not the focus of the story but is very real. Again, it's what the Bible doesn't say, but can be implied that also teaches truth. The truth is God was also working in Jacob's life by allowing him to starve to death and have to relocate to Egypt in order to be kept alive. He despised Egypt so much he asked Joseph to bury him back in Canaan, so when he was resurrected he was in Canaan, not on Egyptian soil.

I say this because so many times in a marriage to a PD, the Biblical justification to stay, from the spouse who is a believer, is based on the fruits of suffering of the non-PD, while all along they are caretaking the PD to keep drama to a minimum, and the PD doesn't suffer at all, because the PD has a overworked spouse-servant who's to-do list gets longer and larger to keep the PD satisfied, and the PD is just fine running over everyone in their path. So who's to say the very deep famine of divorce won't be used by God to force the PD to Egypt, where the suffering of being left; being exposed; and facing their inner selves head-on won't be used by God in a miraculous way, just as he did in the life of Jacob the manipulator, while the previous suffering of the now-purified non is relieved by the storehouse of grain awaiting them in the divorce.

SoT

SonofThunder · July 14, 2021, 07:29:36 AM

Quote from: Free2Bme on July 11, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
SoT,

Thanks for starting this thread, I will check out the links you referenced.

This is a sensitive topic, but one that should be discussed, IMO. I realize there are different viewpoints, here's my story...

I wrestled with my decision to separate from my abusive updh of 20 years. I did not want a divorce, I wanted a healthy marriage that lasted until death.

I prayed, petitioned, spent a lot of time in 1 & 2 Peter trying to understand the application of suffering for doing what is right in the context of scripture that denounces abuse. I confessed my inability to fully understand what was best in my situation, no provision for the flesh, etc. Concluding that separating would only increase the abuse, as would staying, and I would resort to divorce in order to protect children and myself.

I am not a bible scholar by any means. Some theologians that I respect may not agree with my choice.
However, I entered into an agreement with someone who was knowingly deceptive about who he was. I was guilty of being misguided, he was guilty of being predatory and did not seek my (our) greater good as a family.

After years of counsel (professional and church leadership), including an intervention where our children expressed their distress from the abuse, he remained unrepentant and unwilling. He covered his sin and blamed me and the children saying we had the anger problem.

I believe there are many forms of abandonment (1 Corinthians 7:15). IMO, my H abandoned his God given role (protector, leader, gentle, kind, self-controlled, etc.), therefore H abandoned the marriage. God has called me to peace, there can be no peace in a divided home.

~free

Free2Beme,

You wrote: " After years of counsel (professional and church leadership), including an intervention where our children expressed their distress from the abuse, he remained unrepentant and unwilling. He covered his sin and blamed me and the children saying we had the anger problem.

I believe there are many forms of abandonment (1 Corinthians 7:15). IMO, my H abandoned his God given role (protector, leader, gentle, kind, self-controlled, etc.), therefore H abandoned the marriage. God has called me to peace, there can be no peace in a divided home."

Regarding the first paragraph: For a variety of reasons, I am not a person who receives counsel from leaders of an organized, brick and mortar church/denomination, but understand that many do, and lean heavily on the counsel. Did you personally return again to the church leadership counsel after they became aware he was unrepentant? Did they A: Then consider and treat him (in their guidance to you) as an unbeliever? B: Did they apply the verse you referenced, 1 Corinthians 7:15, to some advice regarding abandonment, considering his unwillingness to keep his part of the covenant as (verse 15) "But if the unbeliever leaves..."?

Prior to those two paragraphs you wrote:

" However, I entered into an agreement with someone who was knowingly deceptive about who he was. I was guilty of being misguided, he was guilty of being predatory and did not seek my (our) greater good as a family."

Did the church leaders consider this up-front deception and that the covenant (marriage) was actually entered into manipulatively, therefore invalid from the beginning (the concept of my using Matthew 19: 3-9) and so there was no "two became one", no "one-flesh", no "what God has joined together"?

I currently deal with mental (c-ptsd symptoms) and physical issues (lack of sleep issues and that toll on my body and exacerbated auto-immune disorder issues) related to constant exposure to my uPDw (per my medical doctors counsel), and therefore I believe emotional abuse (verbal, manipulative, anxiety/tension of PD drama, control and others) is physical abuse caused by the emotional and should be treated as such when receiving Biblical counsel regarding separation and divorce, in addition to the above concepts of a null-covenant because of deception and abandonment.

I touched on this prior, but who are we as humans, to declare we can't depart from the duties of a one-sided 'covenant' (haha defies the definition) when God does so himself (see Malachi 2) as he turns away, because they have "not followed my ways.." (verse 9), and "profaned the covenant" (verse 10) and "hates and divorces his wife" by "does violence to the one he should protect". (Verse 16).

*Note that lack of protection and care (abandonment of the spouse) is the 'divorce' in that verse, not some legal proceeding. Then the Israelites bellyache about the consequences of Gods departing (verse 13) as they are blind (like PD's) to their abuse and abandonment.

The marriage analogies are powerful, especially verse 8-9 and then 10-16. Imo, our PD spouses abandoned a legal marital covenant (was it actually real=deception) when the abuse begins, therefore 'divorcing' us within the confines of the legal marital contract. Imo, the end of the legal marital contract by the government is just the necessary seal on what occurred prior when the couple was together.

Imo, PD's enter into a false marriage covenant through deception, as they manipulate the target by love-bombing, and then when the legal marriage contract is in place they shortly after, begin the devaluation to obtain control and create a servant-caretaker out of their spouse, as the spouse is mind-whirling around what change has occurred and how to get back to the idealization, which will only occur once the target has taken the devaluation and/or discard bait and been reeled-in for even greater service to the PD. The false God PD's worship is the 'self' as the self cannot serve two masters.

SoT

tragedy or hope · July 14, 2021, 07:30:37 AM

I can appreciate the discussion. This one thing I know, I must live with my decisions before my Lord. He is the only audience who knows absolutely everything about my situation. When he leads me and gives me peace to move in a direction... I move.

I have learned to wait on the Lord to fight my battles. As David fled from Absalom; his own son, sometimes fleeing is the only alternative. However, when David could have killed him. he did not. Talk about a personality disorder (though I don't believe the bible to refers to as such)... David continued to love the son bent on parenticide(?). This is an example to me. When David could have killed him, he did not, he left him alone because he wa not ready to embrace the man who brought him into this world.

David longed for that relationship. Was he codependent? I think not. David, a powerful King, much loved by his people, gave unconditional love to a terribly wayward son.

Was that a "psychology today" approach? Was he stupid? Unfaithful to God? IMO one must be careful not to interpret the bible through the eyes and thoughts of man, but rather, interpret life with man through the wisdom of the bible if we intend to hold it as truth for our lives.

SonofThunder · July 14, 2021, 08:10:12 AM

Quote from: tragedy or hope on July 14, 2021, 07:30:37 AM
I can appreciate the discussion. This one thing I know, I must live with my decisions before my Lord. He is the only audience who knows absolutely everything about my situation. When he leads me and gives me peace to move in a direction... I move.

I have learned to wait on the Lord to fight my battles. As David fled from Absalom; his own son, sometimes fleeing is the only alternative. However, when David could have killed him. he did not. Talk about a personality disorder (though I don't believe the bible to refers to as such)... David continued to love the son bent on parenticide(?). This is an example to me. When David could have killed him, he did not, he left him alone because he wa not ready to embrace the man who brought him into this world.

David longed for that relationship. Was he codependent? I think not. David, a powerful King, much loved by his people, gave unconditional love to a terribly wayward son.

Was that a "psychology today" approach? Was he stupid? Unfaithful to God? IMO one must be careful not to interpret the bible through the eyes and thoughts of man, but rather, interpret life with man through the wisdom of the bible if we intend to hold it as truth for our lives.

Welcome Tragedy,

I have another thread on the definition of love, but imo, it applies here to your input. I don't ever see God abandoning 'love'. Taking the life of another human, (outside of war and self defense) imo is God's to do.

I do see God departing from the roles of a covenant he entered into but not love. Imo, love is "desiring and potentially assisting in what is BEST for another human being, including ourselves". What is BEST is determined by a foundational source outside ourselves, and for me, it is God and the Bible. God thought it was best and just, to walk away from his covenant role with Israel, but he continued to 'love'.

Like the father of the prodigal son, the father let him go and when the son, truly repentant and changed, walked back in, the father accepted him back in. Joseph did the same with his brothers; he used time and situations to test the real change and when he recognized it, he revealed himself to them.

We know that PD's mostly never can change and protecting ourselves and those in our responsibility to care for in protection (children, elderly, handicapped, animals, assets) is our duty. Leaving the covenant with a PD does not mean we cannot 'love' them, and as we've already discussed, God can use suffering, in purification, in both parties of a story (my Joseph/Jacob/brothers reference). If I thought that through the suffering purification of separation and divorce, that my uPDw could be miraculously healed of her uPD, I would enter into another covenant with her upon being tested to be true (using time). But I know that 99% of the time, those PD miracles never occur because PD is caused by an underdevelopment of the brain. Therefore a miracle is in order to get the prodigal spouse to truly change.

So, imo it was right for David to protect himself, and right for him to 'love' his son, but not David's role to take a life (same as he did with Saul and with Nabal).

SoT

SonofThunder · July 14, 2021, 04:36:31 PM

This thread is about emotional abuse and separation/divorce. Inside the realm of that topic and in our current conversations, we are thus far exploring the subjects of covenants, prolonged or severe emotional abuse having psychological and physical results, abandonment, deception and therefore its nullifying of a covenant, and love.

Regarding covenants, marriage analogies that God uses and therefore some potential Biblical gleaning, here are some further chapters & verses for consideration.

Isaiah 54: 5-8
Jeremiah 3
Jeremiah 31

I choose to keep in mind that God has the ability to restore, as he is all knowing. He breaks covenants, allows the wayward people to suffer, and knows how the story unfolds and ends. God's supernatural abilities are not shared by humans so therefore i must make decisions that look to God for examples, yet trust he has the ability to restore and heal, but that i do not. Imo It would be hypocritical for us to say that covenants are not able to be broken by the one who experiences the abandonment, as God does this himself, and i believe we can find rest and peace in knowing that covenant breaking is an option, that each of us must decide, based on each of our own personal factors.

This comfort zone provides a ethical escape from abuse if I decide it is most 'loving' not only for myself but for my spouse and those in my responsibility.

Interesting side-note is Jeremiah 3:1

I recommend that different translations be explored and considered in the words 'put away' as written in the King James and 'sendeth away' in Youngs Literal Translation. The word 'divorces' is used in the NIV, but the next phrase is a interesting meaning of the wife physically departing from his presence. Its most odd when 'divorces' is used because the timeline of the events read 1. If a man divorces his wife 2. and she leaves him.... I take it that 'sendeth away' and 'divorce' wording is meaning the relaxed legal requirements of that time for a marital covenant to be legally over.

I understand religious law was twisted in that day to make it so very easy, in that male-dominant culture to simply "sendeth" a wife away, (and Jesus is addressing that easiness in Matthew 19) but the fact that this wording is this way is intriguing. In contrast, I also believe the Wycliffe Bible translation is the interesting word 'forsaketh' which is abandonment, which has an entirely different meaning than a legal divorce or a sending-away.

SoT

1footouttadefog · July 14, 2021, 05:37:19 PM

Satan is the father of all lies.

Was your marriage based on a lie or lies.

I know that I was lied to about things that would have been a deal breaker.

Who would use a lie to u ite two people in marriage?

SonofThunder · July 14, 2021, 09:05:06 PM

1foot, thanks for your input into the discussion.

SoT

tragedy or hope · July 15, 2021, 10:03:20 AM

Do we think God does not know when a believer is joined to an unbeliever or a willful unrepentant? Can we justify before God leaving one who is constantly an ugly person to be around? Are we saying we are incapable of understanding that the pd is in there own sin due to the idolatry of their own self above God?

I understand that scripture encourages a believing person to stay with an unbeliever if they do not want to leave. Again, no one should subject themselves to physical abuse. Emotional abuse is subjective. One can also remove themselves from what they feel is emotional abuse.

I do not define things in my life through the eyes of those who do not know God, whether or not they call themselves professionals. They have no wisdom other than what has been gleened by the word of God and pledgerized if you will by man.

Scripture says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and also the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge. Want to know what is right? Go to God and ask Him. Don't stop asking until you have peace with Him and the answer is consistent with His character. IMO, using many different versions of scripture is getting it to say what I want it to say.

Man's wisdom is foolishness to God. Hence, my perception of ad nauseum books etc. declaring something as factual without true faith. People write books to make money. Ecc. 12:13 says the reading of many books is wearisome, the whole purpose of man it to love God and keep his commandments.

Scripture tells me to be Holy as God is holy. What does that mean? Be set apart to follow. IMO one with a pd has a problem with their Creator I cannot address. Sin, idolatry, like the pride of Nebuchadnezzar can and will be addressed by God now or in eternity.

Divorce has been discouraged by the church for centuries. In my lifetime as a believer, I have seen the church have just as many divorces as the world. Has God's standard changed? Many believers get counsel from IMO the ignorance of the world. They have no spiritual basis of reference.

God does not change. Ever. His commands are right, His law is perfect, His commands are pure, His testimony is sure, making wise the simple. Ps. 19

God hates divorce. If I need to separate for my own safety, so be it. This is not divorce. If the erring spouse chooses not to change and will not work on the marriage and is not a believer, I am to let them go. If not, God; who never runs out of wisdom, will guide me.

I see the real issue is that sometimes one has them mindset that they should be happy and free of challenges in life, even with a partner. If that same partner had a physical ailment, incapable of giving to the relationship, causing one to spend most of ones time caring for them, focusing on them... would that constitute a reason to divorce? Is it too burdensome to care for someone less capable than myself physically but not spiritually?

I have learned a thing from scripture in relation to dealing with unpdh behaviors...
where there are many words, sin follows. He that refrains his lips is wise. proverbs 10:19.

I say dive into the feast of wisdom from the word of God until He gives you an answer.
Asking spiritually unregenerate people will give us an answer that can lead to destruction.
I want to hear, "Well done, T/H, my good and faithful servant." When I get there, no matter what the cost to self while I am here.

Philosophical ideas are not truth or scripture and will fade away like the grass.
the word of God promises to stand forever.

The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecc. 12:11-13.

SonofThunder · July 15, 2021, 11:30:57 AM

tragedy or hope, I great appreciate and respect your input and opinion as we explore this most interesting topic. Thank you for taking the time to respond with such deep and detailed discussion.

SoT

1footouttadefog · July 15, 2021, 12:39:09 PM

Of the non believer discontinue the marriage the believer is free.

A marriage is a spiritual covenant between the married and God.

We are to render unto Ceasar what is Cesar's. To this end I believe my political marriage and license is not part of the equation. After all the same paper is used to "unite" relationships which are abominable according to scripture.

This removes the legal issues about separation VS divorse. One can live separately and still keep the marriage vows. One could be legally divorced and still keep the marriage vows.

Back to the marriage partners. If one is not believing and no longer participating and even working against the unity of the marriage do you still have a marriage.

I have been celibate with in my marriage a very long time. I have been told to outsource if I want, I responded he does not make the rules, God does. In the mean time porn was and is likely still being used. In my opinion my spouse cheated on me as he habitually turned to others and neglected that which he committed to be there for with me, and he is the obese denier, and I am still in shape so its not about my stewardship of health.

I see nothing in the Bible about spouses being all kinds of warm and friendly and enmeshed. The marriage was about sex. The rules surrounding marriage are about sex. Despiloiled women were married to the spoiler in the OT. This means marriage is not about lovedove romance and the modern ideas that have been poured on top.

If we use the OT scriptures for marriage and divorce why not use them for other topics related to marriage.

Has your spouse blasphemed, committed adultery or the many other things it was proper to be stoned for. If they were scripturally stoned divorse would not be an issue now would it.

Just tossing some random thoughts out that may inspire Bible study. We can never study scripture too much.

I would much rather my spouse be physically incapable and all the work that goes with that if I could still have his company. As it is he is reasonable healthy amazingly but is mentally ill and perhaps now entering dementia. If not for the dementia I would be outta here.

SonofThunder · July 15, 2021, 09:28:13 PM

1foot,

You wrote: "One can live separately and still keep the marriage vows. One could be legally divorced and still keep the marriage vows." I agree 100%. As I said in a previous reply, I see God walking away from his side of the covenant with Israel, so they could wallow in the aftermath's of their own sin as a nations but he never walked away from love for his creation and chosen people. I surely could fulfill my vows to my uPDw even divorced, but she may choose another man and make similar vows with him, in which then I would only desire to continue to love her (desire what is best for her) until death do us part the Earth.

I am sorry you are celibate and that your husband used/uses pornography, both of which are abuse. I have suffered bouts of prostate infections during times of prolonged refusals by my wife. My doctor instructed me to "keep the pipes flowing" to prevent the infections, but my wife refused even after hearing his diagnosis. I consider sexual refusals to easily be emotional abuse that becomes physical abuse very quickly and requires men to "keep the pipes flowing".

I agree that marriage is about sexual relations, as the day before the wedding, the couple better be just as committed to each other as the day after. But, I agree also that the ceremony is about the witness of and celebration of the covenant being made.

I do find a lot of romance in Song of Solomon so I do believe romance is a part of Gods desire for a couple. Thanks so much for your generous and detailed input!

SoT