Out of the FOG

I have had a feeling, this calm can't continue. I was right..... Almost 2 years NC/VLC, 1 year divorced and 8 months since last financial tie broke.

I am calm. I have been healing. I have listened to tons of books, watched videos, moved my focus from her to me. Doing meditation, following Eckart Toll and watch a couple of videos a day, Alan Watts videos, practising being in the present moment, being authentic, being conscious. Not perfect, still get triggered but nothing like before.

So she made an almighty verbal attack on DD for no other reason than that she could, and needed to. She tried to get through to me but DD just about stopped her from entering the house, I didn't know what was going on. Know she messages me abuse from DD2's phone pretending to be DD2.

Somethings never change.......

I'm sorry, the crazy continues.

I both applaud DD for her ability to push back, and also feel so bad she's in that position.

When this stuff happens, does DD pull back from contact for a while?

Does guilt or obligation pull her back in?

Quote from: square on February 06, 2024, 03:24:12 PMWhen this stuff happens, does DD pull back from contact for a while?

Does guilt or obligation pull her back in?

DD pulls back, but this is the worst so far so I imagine this will be a long no contact from DD. I think uNPDxw might stonewall DD as well so might be mutual. uNPDxw is after me, she wants a reaction from me, that is quite clear to me. But she might go for DD again if she struggles for supply from me.

I don't think guilt or obligation will drag DD back in. The reason she got into the last episode is that uNPDxw used DD2 as a bait and made it clear we wouldnt see her unless DD came to her car to see her, if not she would enter the house (I was upstairs unaware what exactly was going on). uNPDxw later on demanded me to come out and also for DD to apologise (for nothing). My gut feeling is that uNPDxw is after me now, she is in a cycle and I have seen it before, DD recorded some of it and listening to it I recognised it.

What a mess.

Your DD and mine are similar in both being difficult to get them to do things they don't want to do. A curse in some ways but also a giant blessing. Your DD has already developed a strong set of boundaries, and she may tighten them up with her mom after this.

DD has been given freedom following the separation between me and her mum and she is embracing it. Her mum still tries to control her and DD doesn't like it. She has seen the light and she ain't going back.

Ok this escalated fast, some fast lies from DD2 and uNPDxw and now social is involved. Watch the space, I have my oxygen mask firmly on this time.

Good grief.

I wonder what triggered this latest gambit.

Quote from: square on February 07, 2024, 04:35:16 PMI wonder what triggered this latest gambit.

I think it's a combination of needing supply and control. DD has been changing plans with her on a regular basis lately and that has most likely triggered her to feel a loss of control. This loss of control has most likely also left her with low supply and what better than cause a big new drama where big bad EM is no longer going to see DD2 UNLESS he comply to the new rules invented.

I really struggle with what to do, this latest drama involves direct lies by DD2 which has raised safe guarding concerns and in the end is risking my custody over DD. I have quite a few recordings from before separation if when DD2 and uNPDxw verbally abuse me and DD that I have not shared with anyone of respect for DD2. I am not getting to the point I feel the time has come to release the whole truth, it will obviously anger DD2 but I am running out of options. The question is, do I share this with school as they now think I am an abusive alcoholic? Or do I wait until social services are involved, if it goes to that? Or do I make a threat to DD2 or uNPDxw that unless the accusations are withdrawn I will release the tapes? I feel they backed me in to a corner and I have no other option than war.

EM, I'm sorry, this sounds awful.

I gave this some thought, and from where I'm sitting I'm leaning toward you going to the school and clearing this right the hell up.

I understand your desire to protect DD2, but apparently your XW will not stop and DD2 will just get deeper into this mess.

Threatening will just show your cards and give another opportunity for XW to make another move.

Leaving it until social services is involved seems like a total non option to me.

There are no scenarios where DD2 is unscathed. The best of all lousy outcomes for her is at least to not learn that this crap works.

A call to your solictor may be in order.

And don't forget, DD's safety and security is on the line, don't just let it sit - is my way of thinking based on how I read your post.

Thanks for your input square. I have given it a lot of thought over the last couple of days and I will reveal the truth to school. I am constructing an email where I am explaining the back ground, in case they have forgotten, and mentioning the recordings. At the moment I am planning to attach a couple to the email, but not decided if I should ask to come in to school and play them there. I am quite concerned that they won't take me seriously and just fob be off as if I am just trying to blame, the same as during the divorce with the social worker and judge. There is another issue in all this and it is school holiday next week and I am not sure if the relevant people are working or not, and I also don't know if they have reported this to social services yet or not. I was promised a call from school to explain what was going on, but that never happened before the weekend.

This is a very difficult one. I agree with square that you can't let this appear to work otherwise you will get variations on the theme ad infinitum. Plus the risk to DD and custody is an issue. Is dd old enough to make her own decisions who she lives with?  That might be a factor.

A suggestion since I think from memory both girls attend the school? Explain your deep concern for your dd2 that she should feel compelled to say this stuff that's  patently untrue. That you don't want to drag dd into it but anyone that knows you knows it isnt true. Maybe agree that dd2 might need to be reported as needing counselling?? And some support to find out what is behind the fabrication and you would support her getting counselling.(Fabrication is such a good word -not as confronting to schools as lies)

Make it from the point of view of concern for the girls and the stress dd2 must be going through  rather than divorce drama and crazy ex.

Without knowing what has been spread I don't know about the tapes. It will damage dd2 for sure. Exw will probably teflon her way out of them. Maybe throw dd2 under the bus as well. Decide if you need to show them but I wouldn't let control of them out of your hands. Ie show but don't email.

We found that people discount 50% of what you tell them as made up. And since most of the time we tone down what is really going on, they only believe about 25% of reality. It's also confronting to people I believe and their minds switch off. This makes it hard .

I would lean toward asking for a meeting asap. Either they can wait a week or the relevant people can come in.

I lean toward you sending a brief response including that you have proof.

Then making a bullet list for yourself about how you would present this.

There is really an advantage to doing this in person if possible, except for those who have social difficulties but I assume you don't and will come off well.

Thanks for your input, my freeze response really are kicking in and I just want to go to bed and cry. My heart is dying having my children being used as pawns in a sick persons games. I am so scared of not being believed again and I can't really face going through another batch of accusations with people judging and blaming me. I really don't know how much I can manage if I am not believed. This whole thing is not helped by the fact that DD really doesn't grasp the situation and continue pushing me to my limits to get her way.

Anyway, I will follow your advice and not send the recordings but suggest I have them. I will try to build a case around why DD2 is fabricating things where it comes from. I will try to explain what really happened and suggest I have evidence. I will also ask for her to see a counsellor to dry to dig out the truth, and not just listen to and believe her fabrications (not sure how to formulate that though).

I understand that schools must take children's safety concerns seriously, but there must be some kind of limit to how much they can believe to be true without questioning it. I am quite astonished that school decided they were going to raise this with social without even talking to me about my side of the story, DD had already told school what DD2 said was not true and there were no safety concerns what so ever. The latest is so far fetched so I am hoping it will be obvious that it is a lie. The funny (not really) thing is that the lie has just started being told and was never mentioned during the divorce or when spoken to social services in the past and relates to before separation.

I understand your freeze response; I'm a freezer and formerly a flee-er.

What I want you to do, EM, is put on a suit of self righteousness, button it up, feel your spine straightening as you tie your tie, dust off your shoulders as you square them.

You are more than a match for your ex.

You have the receipts. You're smart. You're reasonable. You have communication skills and 100% of the truth on your side.

Yes, mention that this never came up before despite all the occasions any reasonable party would have brought it up - during divorce proceedings, during previous social services interviews, previous school complaints, etc. It's one of several pieces of evidence.

I do actually understand the school just referring to social services rather than starting with you. Imagine a child, not yours, disclosing abuse. The school calls the parent and invites them to explain. Parent comes rolling in there and sweet talks the school. School is dazzled. Kid learns to never disclose again.

Better for the school to leave it to the folks whose job it is to figure this out. And we know they screw it up too, but better them than the school.

You have a lot of evidence going for you.

You got this.

Thanks Square, that's a very uplifting message.

I have written a short email that is straight to the point and is requesting a meeting and please can they let me know a suitable time. Quite proud of myself to not ask if I can have a meeting but when we are having it. I also mentioned, in 2 sentences what the truth is and that I have evidence. I will leave the email unsent until I have slept on it and see if it needs tweaking tomorrow or if it ready to send.

YEAH.

That sounds GREAT.

Forgot to reply on the age Rose. They are both in their young teens, their "wishes" was taken into account in the custody proceedings.

That's a very good response. I understand the freeze and run stuff. But I found that when your kids are involved it sure helps you find the inner strength. Good for you.

It's good DD has already said it's a lie. It's also unfortunately the thing with teens that they don't get the consequences.
Some teen behaviour is very pd.anyway. after all we're talking about immature brain function in a pd so it's not surprising that some behaviours are similar. Although your ex has a degree of viciousness that most teens do not exhibit.

Your dd has also witnessed a lifetime of watching "how to get your own way" and has to unlearn. It's difficult coming on top of your own  trauma and it sounds like you are doing a terrific job. Hopefully she will at some point respond to some therapy as well if she isn't already. It's hard on your own and DD no doubt does not understand how normal works. But good for her for telling the truth.

Be calm, dress for success and go in there without much expectation. As square said, it's probably not their job and they probably do not know how to handle this. But you're on the record and that's important.

I had to discuss some stuff with the school head on theft of my dds glasses years ago. I went in full corporate with shoulder pads on my suit and of course some red. It actually helped. I felt better and I believe it made them sit up and take notice because they weren't in the mood to take it seriously. 😀

It has been sent, lets see where their bread is buttered.

I am not sure what to say, I am tearing my hair out. Got the call from social services and the accusations that has been reported are straight from what uNPDxw invented. I am not the best person in the world, I make mistakes, but I am not a bad person. I can't go through what has been said but I am basically accused for bank robbery when walking against red. At the same time uNPDxw is let off because she is after all the mum that just want her children by her. DD tells me she said nothing remotely like what has been reported, why would she when the worst nightmare she could think of is to move back to her mum.

What is wrong with people. What is wrong with this world.

It's beyond baffling.

And think, she could just behave normally and DD would come around more voluntarily.

Or could have stopped being abusive and still be married and live with both kids, imagine that.

But I guess winning was all she wanted, even if she loses.

I'm sorry this is so difficult. Would they interview DD for her opinion?

DH had a number of police call outs by exw alleging domestic violence. She had thrown herself down the stairs. Fortunately the kids backed him up independently. They were in their teens at the time.

After that episode the local police chief told him that they still had to respond but that she was now on their crazy list.

It's school holidays so will have to wait to next week, but this is getting ugly. I have spoken at length with DD and she is being pressurised to agree with what uNPDxw is saying. I know my daughter and she will crumble under pressure, so in the end if they want her to agree she will. Thing is she is sitting playing the piano for me laughing whilst she is supposed to be scared of me raging at her.

I really can't do this.

There is nothing more frustrating than being accused of things and not being allowed to tell the truth. The system is not going to be happy until it has destroyed me, stopped all contact between me and DD2 and reunited DD with uNPDxw. DD is useless in the truth war as she is not strong enough to really tell a truth no one wants to hear from her, she is also having a terrible memory and hardly remembers what has happened. DD2 on the other hand is being fed what to say and come across as trustworthy as she is very firm with what she says. Another problem is that DD is completely unaware of the seriousness of the situation and if I get it right was talking to the teacher together with DD2 and in the end gave up protecting me because the teacher would not give up pressing her and she just wanted the conversation to end. When speaking to DD about the concerns the social worker told me she had reported DD was puzzled as she never reported them, where does that leaves me? I mean, how can school make up an allegation that DD is fearing for her safety? I am just baffled. 

DD's ability to understand this situation and prioritize the truth over endig a coversation is indeed critical here.

You have this school holiday week. You know your daughter and you've had some deep conversations with her.

Maybe one key for both you and her is to just put it in her hands. She has a choice about whether she wants to live with mom, or whether she wants to deal with the annoyance of pushing back on someone's questioning.

The teachers are not really qualified to do this. If they were they would know that continual pressure gets wrong answers.
Is there some way to pre-empt during the holidays and take DD to a qualified counsellor and let her talk? Maybe one that is prepared to make a statement in court?

I have had a long talk with DD and she has calmly revealed what has happened. If she is telling me the truth, and I have no reason to not believe her, uNPDxw is about to hang herself with all the rope she has got. DD never said what school reported to social worker, the teacher has only used the story told by uNPDxw and DD2 and completely left out DD's side, or more to it not listen from the beginning. I suppose we all know how convincing a PD is when telling their lies. But since what was reported is factually incorrect and I am sure DD can give a true statement when not pressured. To be honest, the so called discussion that led to the report was conducted with the girls together with DD2 starting to cry after telling the lie so DD never got a chance to tell her side of the story. The teacher had then called XW afterwards and suddenly things not even talked about in the actual meeting was suddenly included as fact reported by DD. I am pretty sure DD2 will crumble if pushed by the right person, XW will rage if she is exposed and end result could be good. But knowing DD never said she was unsafe, and that she told me she would never say she is unsafe means I am as safe as I can be and DD should not be taken off me.

However, I am extremely worried about DD2 and that she is nurturing her own path to becoming a PD. Thing she says, how she behaves and her lack of individuation is and lack of friends is so frightening. But, I am not sure how to help her can I not get her out of the house of PD. Even if I manage to get her out, is it to late?

Thanks for all feedback, I am really apriciating it.

Glad to hear this update.

With DD2, it's pretty much out of your hands. You fought the good fight. You keep your door open. She had a nice day with you and DD some weeks or months back. There is nothing more you can do at this time.

I know the idea of her making her own choices is quite complicated by her being a child and being manipulated, but there is a degree to which children have some agency and we must honor that. The situation may yet change someday and you'll be there if it does. 

You are right square, but when DD2 is actively spreading lies in uNPDxw's big fight to down EM and ruin his life action is required. I am going to try to expose this lie, if that fails but nothing else happens I will cut off contact but leave the door open. It is hearth breaking to deal with a child that is being used as a pawn and every interaction has an intent and an agenda.

100%. I was responding to your very understandable worry about DD2's direction and your saying you didn't know how to help her.

Oh, just another thought. You could talk to DD about being aware she is feeling pressured, and responding by literally saying "I'm feeling pressured by you right now" or even "I feel like I am being expected to give an answer that isn't true."

The funny bit that uNPDxw seems to have missed in all this. The court ordered DD to live with me, but nothing about visitation and contact. So if DD felt like it, she could pack her bag and move into uNPDxw's house. If that happened I could only get DD back against her will with a new court order. So.... If DD wasn't feeling safe with me, and all these constructed stories were true she would have moved wouldn't she?

This rat smells and this time it smells to much.

So good you had a talk with DD. Unfortunate we need to teach our children how to manage a pd, how to enforce her boundaries etc and the whole time put up with parental pressure which can be very strong guilt trips.

Then there's the golden child who lives in fear of being dumped as the golden child and will do stuff to prevent that while convincing themselves it's normal behaviour. She may feel she's burned her bridges with you or just want mother approval.It's really sad and all you can do is keep the door open. One day she may realise how she was played.

It's disgusting how children are used as a pd pawn or even weapon. But you're not doing that, your ex is and she may well reap the consequences at some point.

You are wise to stay out of the firing line and keep communicating with DD especially about the pitfalls for her if she falls into the pd trap.

I am pretty sure DD2 knows what she is doing and that she is ashamed of it. When I see her, she always look into the ground as if she is embarrassed. But I know it is not her and that she is manipulated, but I don't stand a chance to get that message through. The very hard bit for me is not that I can't see her, it is to see her have her life thrown away to please a PD. That the people that should help her actually work against her by not understanding frustrates me, but why would they think she is lying if they have no experience of PD's and alienation?

With regards do DD I have asked her to not see her mum until this immediate mess is cleared up, then I will ask her to never talk about me with her mum. I think she starting to realise the damage that causes and I am really explaining this to her. I am exaggerating slightly in this example but I think you get my point. If DD tells uNPDxw that I was in the city centre yesterday, uNPDxw would retell to someone else that I was in the city centre yesterday, got drunk and got into a fight in a strip club when trying to hook up with a prostitute.

I wish all contact in any form with uNPDxw could end.

Quote from: escapingman on February 15, 2024, 05:51:32 AM1. That the people that should help her actually work against her by not understanding frustrates me, but why would they think she is lying if they have no experience of PD's and alienation?

2. I am exaggerating slightly in this example but I think you get my point. If DD tells uNPDxw that I was in the city centre yesterday, uNPDxw would retell to someone else that I was in the city centre yesterday, got drunk and got into a fight in a strip club when trying to hook up with a prostitute.

Hi EM,

Two things regarding the quoted paragraphs above.

1. Are you, through the legal system, able to use this incident to flip your paragraph to a positive future paragraph to us? I will rewrite a possible future paragraph below.

"Hi Out of the FOG friends, I was able to use this incident to prove to the court that both DD and DD2 should have a court-ordered, EM-hired professional trauma counselor for both kids. The court will then allow that hired trauma counselor to be a psychological professional witness for both defendant and plaintiff in a court setting and/or provide social services with professional information regarding the wellbeing of both kids. Now friends, there IS someone other than me who understands PD behavior and how the children are being manipulated." ~EM

2. You wrote "exaggerating slightly"

-city center
-drunk
-fight
-prostitute

Not sure how many of those 4 is true (see the bold word above), but imo only the first one is the one that should be true with regard to a future hired trauma psych professional testifying for or against you, and for the children to be around when with you.

SoT

Hi SoT

There is no court case at the moment, I am not intending to start one either. I know that the only way I will be able for DD2 to see the light is for her to see it herself. I have pointed out to the school that we should get to the bottom of the fabrications from DD2, I doubt that leads to anything as uNPDxw has them beleiving the alienated child is DD and everybody are doing all they can to reunite DD with her mum. I will just have to take a back seat on this and wait for uNPDxw to implode. As for my example it was just a complete fictional one but was supposed to show how much she actually twist the reality. It's so absurd I can't believe anyone fall for it.

EM, best wishes to you in your desire for DD2 to "see the light".  I lived every day as a fully developed adult with my stbx for 20+ years before I was able to begin piecing together the past enough to see patterns and a cycle. PD's are talented manipulators who will snow over a fully trained therapist. 

Imo, children trust their parents to have their best interest in mind and heart and not lie to or manipulate them; more trust even than husband and wife relationships.  "see the light" imo, is a very tall order for a minor. "see the light" is imo, a much smaller order for a professionally trained trauma therapist whose patient(s) is a child of a PD adult, as the children's private and true revelations to the therapist, is a window into life behind the tall wall of the PD's cult-ish, manipulative conditioning compound. 

SoT

SoT, I am fully aware of what you are saying unfortunately. But I am tired if fighting a battle where everyone is against me and everyone is manipulated. I have 2 chances as I see it, either uNPDxw implode completely and overplays her hand or get exposed. The other chance is that she find a new supply and lose interest in me and the children. Both are very real options, but things I have very little control over. The other option would be to continue this war which will end up everybody on the losing side, but should uNPDxw escalate this war and the current situation demand it I will have to fight. I suppose when everybody are back from the school holiday next week I will find out what the next steps are and if this will escalate.

SoT, you really got me thinking with your post and I have spent quite some time searching around the internet. It's crystal clear that parental alienation is going on and that without interference nothing is likely to get better. I think I need to start laying out war plans again and once again fight for the truth, these latest false allegations might, I say might as I have no idea, play into my hand as I suspect uNPDxw is going to try to overplay her hand.

escapingman, do you have a lawyer (or solicitor or whatever the term is where you live)? I think it would be reasonable to get legal help given what's going on with your ex now.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on February 16, 2024, 12:27:46 PMescapingman, do you have a lawyer (or solicitor or whatever the term is where you live)? I think it would be reasonable to get legal help given what's going on with your ex now.

No not at the moment, honestly I have so bad experience from the last time I don't want to near a court. But I will find out early next week what is actually happening. In theory I feel I know more about the subject matter than my last lawyer so might create and submit an application on my own or only hire a lawyer for sanity checks and for the actual court hearings if going that route.

Good luck.

But I am worn down as well, DD really doesn't understand and she keep pushing me and being mean and just don't help with anything. If I start getting firm with her she just escalates until she threathen me with something which often includes involving her mum or school. Sometimes I feel it would be best to let her move there so she can see fir herself how good she has it with me. It might come to that anyway as I think she has been used in this big lie that has been constructed.

Unfortunately sometimes kids need to learn from experience. I know of someone who's son decided to follow the money as a young adult. he was back in 3 weeks with a better understanding of domestic violence.
However it often doesn't go that way.
My ds resented the parental alienation and it contributed to them going NC as adults.

However they weren't fed it daily like a dripping tap. I do think your dd could benefit from counselling if she isnt already. Sometimes someone else calling it what it is can be very helpful

DD has had counselling but will need more, this is something I am trying to achieve through school and has been promised in the past (not sure current status). But if nothing happens there I will take her private, I have a referral from our family doctor. My aim and hope is that this latest drama will put both girls in counselling and assessment about their mental health.

I have no desire to go to court, nor do I have any desire to start another round of allegations between me and uNPDxw. I have all the evidence, no one seems interested though, and she has false allegations which everyone seems very interested in. There are brand new issues on why DD2 doesn't want to see me, it happened before the divorce so not really sure why there are no warning bells about how truthful they are as they are severe but never mentioned before in 2 years. I am also questioning if school has taken sides here and reported a fabricated story only listening to one side, I have not really go all the details about what has been said and by who. But DD tells me that what she is supposed to have said is not true, but that the teacher and DD2 were pushing here to say it and she was so pressurised in the end she doesn't know what was said. Top that up with that the same teacher spoke to uNPDxw and allowed that discussion to influence her report with so obscure details that DD wouldn't even know how to express.

However, I am  not going to agree to anything based on these false allegations whatever the consequences will be. I am not going to go down in the mud and wrestle with the pigs.

Have you considered the possibility that the stuff you are being accused of was being done by your ex or something similar she's trying to cover up?

DHs counsellor told him that if he wanted to know what his ex was up to, look at her accusations. It turned out to have some truth to it and she spent a lot of effort and time trying to create an alternate reality.

Rose, almost her entire case against me during the divorce proceeding were basically a description of exactly what she has done to me and the girls. She has basically taken one of the fake accusations from the divorce case, rehashed it and made it worse than the initial accusations and then put it to school through DD2. As this has been reported by DD2 as her not feeling safe with me school decided to pressure DD to say she isn't feeling safe with me. DD is not remembering the exact conversation but school thought it was best to tell social that DD said she doesn't feel safe with me, which is absurd and why would she do that when she know that she certainly wouldn't be safe with her mum.

"My aim and hope is that this latest drama will put both girls in counseling and assessment about their mental health."

Imo, school's are not equipped to handle these issues. I know of a man who divorced a BPD with multiple minor children. The man realized quick that school counselors were ineffective and therefore has used the hardship created by the PD to get a trauma-trained counselor for his children.

This counselor is authorized, should the counselor believe is necessary, to report any children-wellbeing concerns to social services.  Social services is then able to use those authorized findings to assist a court (if necessary), to choose what is best for the children. 

Social services in my area is purposely focused solely on the children's wellbeing, not the adults in the mix.  Therefore when an authorized trauma counselor of children reports to social services, it's meaningful to the wellbeing of the children, outside any influence from parents. 

BOTH parents choices and activities are equally considered in the counseling of this man's children, which is fair to all parties. Therefore a parents proactive choices in the wellbeing of all the children is recommended, and both parents have the same options. If costs of counseling is in the mix, then there may have to be other expenditures (travel for example) that may have to take a backseat in the priority of the children's wellbeing. 

SoT

You are absolutely right SoT, school is not qualified. By their incompetence they really stirred something here. I mean, in a highly toxic situation with the kids having opposite views you don't interrogate one of them in front of the other to agree. Absolute chocking

Quote from: escapingman on February 17, 2024, 02:00:04 PMYou are absolutely right SoT, school is not qualified. By their incompetence they really stirred something here. I mean, in a highly toxic situation with the kids having opposite views you don't interrogate one of them in front of the other to agree. Absolute chocking

YOU certainly know its highly toxic, but school counselors only have a relationship circle 4 and 5 view, which is outside the walls of a compound that hides the inside-toxicity truth that only circles 1 and 2 know.  Therefore not a surprise that situations with minors spiral downward in a school counselors office. PD's are professional groomers of children.

A outside, trained trauma counselor may be equipped to decipher what has actually occurred inside the compound, both in the past and also ongoing. If possible in your area, they may be able to report concerns to social services, and social services may already have outside trauma therapy specialist's names with whom they have worked prior. 

SoT

Excellent point. Good counsellors are likely to be in private practice because they can.
It's possible the school counsellor is also under pressure to not call out the teacher's behaviour. Plus they may report back. Arms length is often very good.

Also as children get older the abusive pd may have a sudden realisation that they have lost control as the kids get older and better able to understand what is going on. This can cause the pd to double their efforts.

It certainly did with DHs ex. Threats to the kids were sufficient to instill a great deal of fear. Some were threats about what she would do to dh. As one of his ds said when grown "we knew you were the only one that loved us and we were terrified she would take that away."

DD has completely changed since the incident and the school intervention. She has got back to completely disrespect me and being quite abusive to me. I can see her looking at me and thinking "What are you going to do about it, I have the power and can tell school anything". She has done this in the past when not getting what she wanted, at least last time the safety team in school didn't think it was unreasonable to raise my voice when she flat out refused to clear her stuff off the floor. She has threatened me to tell school in the past where I have had to ask her what it is she really is going to tell school without getting an answer. But now I am really worried she will admit to something or tell something completely untrue just to get attention or punish me (she has lost a top and blames it on me).

I am sure all of you with a PD involved understand the difficulty to get any discipline in order when you are constantly undermined. DD also know for her to get accepted and "loved" she need to join in with uNPDxw and DD2 in the bash EM talks, and if she can tell them some stories about me (doesn't matter if they are true not) she gets treated like the golden child. This is and has for some time put an enormous pressure on me that I am struggling to cope with, I can't really trust the one living with me, it feels like being spied on and that any perceived fault can get reported to uNPDxw or DD2 or to school either directly or through them. I have really done work on myself and I am not reacting much anymore, I am not accepting being judged or accused and I am not going to defend myself against lies other than just state they are not true and then leave it.

I get your points about counsellors, the ones through school doesn't seem to do much so unless social services can provide someone competent (unlikely) it has to be private. But as uNPDxw doesn't want anyone talking to DD2 it is very unlikely I get that to happen unless ordered by court (unlikely without spending thousands of pounds and another year of court hearings).
 

Maybe counselling for DD only then. She's playing a very dangerous game and will get burnt.

And it's the ultimate play one parent against another. Trouble is she loses. I wonder if she understands that her entire future is hanging on how she behaves now and does she realise the disrespect toward you is unacceptable?

I imagine like you said she gets brownie points from mum but at what cost?

But it likely will not sink in until she hears it from someone else. Imagine trying that stunt in the workforce

DD has been really good today, I will try to prep her for tomorrow when she is likely to be questioned. I need to remind her to not fawn when being pushed and to stick to the truth always.

But let's see how this goes this week, your guess is as good as mine.

Again, suggest she name the discomfort when she feels it, eg "I feel like everybody wants me to say X" or "I just feel a lot of pressure right now" or even "this doesn't feel good" instead of saying something just to end it.

This is just getting muddier and I really don't know what is going on. DD has spoken to the teachers now and they did NOT report to social services that DD has safety concerns about me. Apparently most of the report was about uNPDxw and her verbal abuse towards DD outside the house. Why do I have a feeling that the social worker spoke to uNPDxw first and that she told a different story that the SW decided was trustworthy enough to lay into me about all the safety concerns DD had reported. What makes this smell even more is that the SW said she was going to talk to uNPDxw AFTER she had spoken to me making me believe she had not spoken to her yet.

SOMEONE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH!

Whoever that is, WHY?????

It's very unlikely DD or school as DD told me school happily show me the report and speak to me.

I will wait to see what is being said next, but DD stood up for me and said the only safety concerns she has is with her mum.

I'm not sure how to feel about that, but I am hopeful that the cracks you have run into will just bust this whole thing open.

DD is probably the worst one out there to remember what has been said and the importance of it. She has now revealed DD2 has told even more lies about me and that DD was interrogated by teachers to agree with DD2. She was then told she should spend more time with her mum. It will be very interesting what they will actually tell me, maybe the lack of response to me is caused by they are trying to break DD and for her to reveal that the lies are true. I think I might keep her off school tomorrow.

Sounds like the case is dropped and that social didn't see any reason investigate further. So uNPDxw should have used and failed her only(?) weapon. She can surely not reuse the same accusations again, or can she? That would look bad on her account.

Back to try yo get DD2 back on seeing me.

I'd be interested in knowing more, if I were you, EM.

I think it would be a-okay for you to want to ask someone more questions. You're innocent. If you were guilty, you'd want to just let sleeping dogs lie. But you could benefit from knowing why it was dropped. If they felt like she was lying, that is info to your advantage later if she kicks up again. But if she pulled some grand gesture of "EM did this but I'm going to let it go because I just want to not upset my girls," you might want to be on record with your statement while it's fresh. So if she then has a new accusation down the line, it's all there, rather than looking like a series of open complaints against you.

Just a thought.

I don't know it's worth it, the system is not ever going to be on my side, and I think they have written it off unless something BIG happens. The girls are too old for them to worry too much about them, and as far as the system they will think the girls will just base them selves where ever they feel safe. I couldn't even prove it's unsafe at XW with recordings of her beating the sh*t out of them. My chance is that DD2 see the light one day or a BIG incident with an audience happens. About DD2 I think she knows the truth but is scared to let XW down and very likely embarrassed about how she has treated me and might think she is better off just sitting duck. I keep telling her I love her but there is not much more I can do.

I doubt this is the last page in the drama circus though......

Yeah makes sense.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON!

A few weeks ago I was at risk of losing DD2 and almost accepted that I might not see her for some time.

NOW.

She is going on a weekend trip with me and DD.

WOW.

I LOVE LIFE!

What a circus! Do you think the trip away could be used to ask DD2 what her take on the latest drama was?  Or do you think it would be better to just leave it all alone?  Perhaps just a mention to her that she can talk to you if and when she feels like it (as long as she's respectful).

How did this trip with DD2 come about?

AOD

I am working on trying to simply relish the morsels when they occur in the middle of the mayhem. I have a long way to go, but I will take all the morsels I can get!  No matter what is the reason for it occurring EM, I hope you have a absolutely delightful time with both girls. 

SoT

I have to be very careful with what I say to DD2, she does exactly what her mums tells her to - I am not sure she is aware or not. Since she is coming on this trip, XW has approved of it. If XW has approved I always have to be suspicious of what the hidden agenda is. But, I am trying to go past that and just be as authentic as I can and hope that she can see that both me and DD loves her and wants her in our lives (despite what XW systematically tells her). The trip in itself was just a last minute idea for me and DD to go away and I decided to ask DD2 if she wanted to come along (expecting a no).

I have accepted that DD2 is not a part of my daily life so this is an unexpected gift from the universe and I will treasure it.

EM, I want to mention your earlier words from this thread:

"Got the call from social services and the accusations that has been reported are straight from what uNPDxw invented."

Considering also the additional sentence from your last post of:

"If XW has approved I always have to be suspicious of what the hidden agenda is."

With a PD, imo #motiveiseverything

Therefore, keeping both of those potentially in mind, I want to encourage you that whatever the subjects were of the prior "accusations", that those same subjects are not at all present during your travels and therefore have no evidence of any kind regarding you.  Enjoy your coming weekend with your daughters. 

SoT

EM,

I don't want you to be overly paranoid, but I think it's important to consider this weekend that DD2 might record you secretly at the request of XW. Just to be safe, I suggest that 100% of the time the way you communicate makes the assumption you are being recorded.

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.

I hope it is a wonderful weekend!

Firewalker

Thanks for this SoT and Fire, but I am already aware of this and feel quite anxious about it. But I gotta spend time with her when given the option, her catching anything on recordings is about zero chance as the accusations were taken out of the blue. I also reckon that any more false accusations, unless XW invent something terrible will be rejected at the door.

But yes, I will keep it in the back of my head that anything could be reported back to XW twisted, changed and the reported onwards.

It all went well, but DD2 was on edge. Not sure what to think about it but it was lovely to spend a weekend with my two girls the 3 of us for the first time for two years.

uNPDxw motive: Not hundred percent sure if anything else in it but she was away herself and probably needed someone to look after DD2. Wonderful for me (and her) if she is moving on!

I'm glad it went well! No matter the motive it's great you could spend that time together.

Thanks FW, motive is not important but I think it was a non malice one - which makes me extra happy.