Exponentially increased communication & alienation questions

[eclecticmom]

My husband has not been involved in my kids' lives pretty much from the start.  No shared excitement when I was expecting, a little, but not much or regular playtime or parenting time when they were babies, and on up.  Always fine being the disciplinarian, then--make it awful enough so they won't want to do it ever again.  This made me uncomfortable, so I always just handled the discipline (not perfectly, by any means), as well as all the other parenting stuff.  One child has their own phone, and since my husband moved out, they've been texting daily.  I don't know what.  The child shares sometimes, but not often, and I haven't pried.  I'm so concerned this could be some kind of either love bombing (but the parental kind) or just him feeding his need for attention, approval, & adoration.  I'm concerned, but at the same time, have anxiety, and a great imagination, so maybe it's fine and I'm worried over nothing?  My kids have zero discretion, so anything I say to them may well be shared indiscriminately.  But I don't want to sneak around and look at my kid's phone, either.  That just seems like a huge breach of trust and privacy unless there's for sure a reason to do that.  And I can't tell if there is.  And if I did and that fact somehow came to light, could I be accused of parental alienation?

Another thing I wonder is whether pointing out spouse's negligence and other bad habits *if* relevant to the conversation and in as kind a way as possible is parental alienation.  I mean, am I suppose to excuse that stuff and say it's fine when it's not?  Or keep my mouth shut?  What happens if I'm teaching my kids how things are supposed to be and they bring him up?  In the past I've said that people we love make bad decisions--that doesn't make them bad or mean we can't love them, but it doesn't make those decisions right.  Is that ok?  I didn't have to think about this then.

[athene1399]

Welcome, eclecticmom. How old is the child with the phone? If he/she's younger, I would say you could read the messages but let her/him know you will be. Like "until you are x years old, I would like to monitor your electronic devices". Even just to see what games they are playing and stuff like that to make sure it's age appropriate IMO. I wouldn't "sneak" to do it, but let him/her know you will be doing it from time to time.

When we would discuss something BM was doing that we didn't think was appropriate, we would keep the conversation vague. Like not tie it in with BM, but if we're talking about something very similar to what BM did and SD makes the connection, then that's ok. We've told SD specifically it is not appropriate for BM to scream at her and call her names. If the kids ask why your ex does whatever, the best thing to say is "i don't know why xH does that." What you can do is help your kids work on coping mechanisms or how to respond (or not respond) to your ex. You can discuss their feelings. "How do you feel when dad does x? That must be confusing/upsetting/frustrating."

In the past I've said that people we love make bad decisions--that doesn't make them bad or mean we can't love them, but it doesn't make those decisions right.

IMO, that is perfect too.

[eclecticmom]

Thank you, athene.  I've already used the "I don't know why" line.  Because I don't.  There's addiction involved, in addition to whatever this dynamic/these behaviors are.  They tend to excuse him (but I honestly did that to them).   I excused him for so long and held him on a pedestal.  So it's not ok for anyone else to have addictive behaviors, but when it's him, eh.  I just wasn't sure if saying "addiction is bad, no matter what" could be twisted against me as somehow disparaging him.  Or "XYZ behavior is not ok, no matter who does it."  Or saying, "He wasn't really that involved."  These are simply stating facts, but I can just see them being twisted.  "Oh, so you're saying I'm a bad parent?!"  "Are you saying I can't quit?!" So on and so forth.

My child with the phone is a teen, and generally responsible, not needing oversight.  Imposing it now would be a glaringly obvious change.  But no I really don't want to breach privacy and trust without a really good reason.  I'm afraid, though.  That's not a good reason, just an uncomfortable reality.  They're in counseling.  Maybe that's enough?  I'm still in the, "It wasn't supposed to be like this" stage, even though it's been the way it wasn't supposed to be for years and years.  I've just recently admitted it to myself.  There are a lot of should have's and could have's running through my mind these days.    And I don't know how it will unfold from here; I don't want him to hurt them or feed on them.  He's used one of them as the butt of jokes already.  Not the one with the phone; right now it's buddy buddy with that one.  I'm afraid that one will serve to replace me as the adoring fan base.  No one should be in that role, but especially not a child with their parent.

[Penny Lane]

Hi eclecticmom and welcome to this part of the forum!

The good and bad news for you is that what you're experiencing seems to be really common. We've heard a lot of stories about PD parents particularly dads who were uninvolved up until the point of divorce who then become parent of the year. There seem to be a combination of reasons and none of them good: attempt to control or get back at the non parent, attempt to replace the attention they were getting from the non parent with attention from the kids, and an attempt at getting the upper hand in court so they will have more parenting time and therefore pay less child support. And some of it seems to be just ego - they seem to HAVE to try to compete for who the kids love more by alienating the other parent. Which of course is extremely toxic to kids at a very tough time.

I'm sorry to sound so cynical! I wish that I could say that your husband is trying to reconnect with the kids. But I think your gut is telling you that something is off and you should listen to your gut. My guess is that as you enter the divorce and then the coparenting stage of your relationship, he's going to try to gaslight and manipulate you out of listening to that gut and into doing what he wants. Stay strong!

On the question of the phone specifically, I'm all for privacy when it's possible but I think parents should be looking at kids' phones anyway because of concerns with internet strangers, etc. Implementing it as a new rule, though, is a lot harder than setting that up as the rule from the beginning. Maybe you do end up just letting it go but I would say it's not unreasonable to want to see what they're texting - to everyone.

On your question about how to talk to the kids about their dad's bad behaviors ... that is the $1 million question and if you find a definitive answer please come back here and share it because it is truly the hardest part about coparenting with someone with PD behaviors! They are acting objectively badly, in ways that you are trying to teach the kids not to act, but the kids can SEE their other parent acting this way and getting the message that it's ok. That's HARD.

Here is my advice gleaned from years of stepparenting kids with a probably uPD mom:
Tread very lightly at first. Your emotions are still raw and right now you probably need to do some healing before you can address this in a way that helps them. Practice some stock phrases that you can say in various situations. I LOVE what you said about loving people who make bad decisions. Definitely reinforce that. Athene's suggestion of asking them what THEY think about it - also gold. If it's egregious maybe "that's not a choice I would have made" or "that's not how I choose to treat people/parent you kids/whatever he did."

Their dad can accuse you of alienation no matter what you do, and he likely will say you're alienating them pretty much any time the kids act in a way that he doesn't like. So your goal here should NOT be to avoid accusations of alienation. A better goal would be, to find a way to speak kindly about him to the kids so that they can make their own decisions about how they want their relationship with him to be. Give them the tools to set boundaries, to use critical thinking, to say no and to value themselves. And, hopefully, those tools will be the foundation for their healthy emotional development despite their dad's shortcomings.

When you're ready to have more in depth conversations with them, I would steer you away from all or nothing statements like "addiction is bad no matter what" or "your dad was not involved." But I do think you can give them the message - just do it in a way that doesn't so much set it up as you vs their dad. The goal is NOT to tell them what to think. It's to share your values and then to get their critical thinking going. You're not always going to be there to protect them from their dad, so they need to be equipped to protect themselves from him. That means logistically but also emotionally - like recognize when he is lying or conning them, and protect themselves from the disappointment of learning that he's not fulfilling his promises to them.

For example:
Instead of "addiction is bad" an explanation of WHY addiction is bad. "People who get addicted to something like drugs or alcohol often make a lot of bad decisions in pursuit of that addiction. Addicts will lie, steal or cheat in order to get their next fix. It's an illness, and it's important to have empathy for people who are struggling with this. It's very hard to break an addiction! At the same time, it's also important to set boundaries and not enable the addict to further their addiction, and it's especially important to not give up things you need in order for the addict to get more (drugs, alcohol, whatever). It's hard to say no, but saying yes hurts them and it hurts you."

This isn't the same, but we've had some pretty serious discussions with DSS12 about not giving into his 9 year old sister's tantrums. In fact he is not ALLOWED to give her the thing she is having the tantrum over, because that just teaches her that tantrums work. And then we would all be subjected to constant tantrums.

Note that those examples don't mention their other parent. Once you've laid the groundwork with that discussion, when they bring up the other parent, you can discuss how you handle those situations and how it fits in with the values you've previously discussed. My guess is that at some point you will HAVE to have this conversation. We have had to do it several times, when the kids flat out asked why DH was handling a situation with his ex a certain way or repeated something she said and asked if it was true (it wasn't.) It really helped to be able to refer back to the values that we'd already talked about - it was clear that DH and I aren't being mean to their mom, it's just that we have principles that we apply to her just like everyone else. And I think that is instructive to them, they can see themselves setting similar boundaries with her (when they get older). We've seen DSS apply our tantrum principle to his mom - without us ever showing him the similarities between DSD's behavior and their mother's.

Similarly:
"Your dad was not involved" --> rather than saying that, talk about all the things that YOU did with the kids, the way you remember it, the times you changed their diapers and took them to the first day of kindergarten and when they lost their first tooth and art projects you made together. Kids love hearing about themselves. They might forget how uninvolved their dad was and enjoy this new Disney dad for awhile. But deep down they know that you're the stable parent, and they're never going to feel totally comfortable with him or like they can rely on him. So reinforce the closeness you have with them and try not to get threatened by his new act. It won't last and when he does break the kids' hearts by reverting to his old self, you want them to be able to turn to you for support. And that means NOT talking badly about him in the meantime, thus maintaining your position as their safe space.

"XYZ behavior is not ok, no matter who does it" --> This is a very hard one for me because it's often a totally reasonable thing to say. Stuff like "it's never OK to lie" is a very reasonable parenting stance! But they see their other parent lie all the time so are we saying their parent is a bad person?
We try very hard to describe WHY it's not ok. "When you lie, people won't trust what you say." And follow that up with natural consequences - if we catch the kids lying, it's harder for us to believe them the next time.
"I don't like it when you yell at me. I'm going to walk away (or, you need to take a break) and we can continue this conversation when you're ready to speak respectfully."
Or even just model the better behavior. "I'm paying you this money that I owe you even though you forgot because it's always important to be upfront about money."

You'll almost certainly end up using trial and error figuring out what is the best way to relate to your specific kids with their personality and temperament and maturity level and their relationship with their dad. Some people on these board can be a lot more blunt and upfront than the language I've suggested; others have to tread much, much more lightly.

I want to suggest a couple books I read when I first met my now-husband and realized how bad the situation with his ex was. I refer to these often, and they've really helped me through a lot of this. The things I suggest above, most of the principles come from these books (and others by the same authors)

Don't Alienate the Kids! By Bill Eddy: He suggests bolstering the kids in several areas including managing their emotions, seeing things in shades of grey and moderating behaviors. This has really given us a guidepost for what skills we try to teach them. We literally have a problem-solving routine at our house (the kids hate it, they say they'd rather be grounded, lol, but I see them applying problem solving to other areas and so I see it as a success).

Coparenting with a toxic ex by Amy Baker: This goes through specific ways your coparent might try to alienate the kids, and what to do about them. I highly recommend reading it BEFORE you start seeing the results of the alienation - I firmly believe this helped H head off some problems that could've become much, much more serious.

Both of these authors also have books about the divorce process that might be helpful to you.

I also read two parenting books that have nothing to do with divorce or PDs that have become somewhat of our bible(s). One is Parenting with Love and Logic. It really emphasizes teaching the kids personal responsibility and good decision-making. Another is How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk. This is where we got the idea for the problem-solving process. Interestingly, L&L is much harsher while HTT is a lot more touchy-feely. But the underlying strategies they suggest are basically the same - they just differ in the attitude they use to apply them.

This got long, sorry. It's ok if you're overwhelmed by all this and you're taking it one step at a time. You are very early in the divorce process. You have to put your oxygen mask on first. It is NOT OK for your ex to behave the way he did, and it's not fair that this is the situation you're in. I hope you can take some time and space to grieve because it's truly not fair and it's so, so hard. But at the end of that grieving process, hopefully, is coming to peace with the idea that while it's not OK, it still is. And then planning to act and to parent accordingly. It sounds like you have an incredible foundation of love and trust and teaching with the kids. That will serve you so well as you all learn how to interact with the kids free of your ex and how to teach them to handle him without you as a buffer. So far it sounds like you are doing great with a really tough situation. I hope in the short term you make room for some joy in your life, with the kids, that you couldn't have with their abusive dad around.

[NumbLotus]

My H's parents divorced when he was a kid. His F is strongly PD and his M has traits. His M was the relatively "good" parent. His F played all kinds of games after the divorce, then finally pretty much ghosted his two kids (H and sibling).

As is nkt uncommon with teen boys, when H was older he wanted to try to have a relationship with his F. He moved in with him for a while.

His M wasn't perfect but she overall "let" H try it, and let him figure his F out for himself. I think this was a critical thing for H, because when he recounts this time, he has clear feelings about his F, and feelings about his M aren't in the way of that. If his F did something, he didn't have to untangle whether M's opinion about it was right or fair, it was just something he experienced about his F.

When it all blew up, he moved back in with M.

I think we all want to provide our children with two stable parents, but the reality isn't there for all of us. We can't really "save" our children from it, just provide a safe place and be a lighthouse for them.

As the parent of a teen with a PD father, I think if I suddenly started reading her texts with her father, it would become a bigger thing than whatever he was texting her. They would both feel intruded upon, and there's really nothing good I could add to it.

I have made a conscious effort to be a safe person for DD to talk to about her F. I can't change her F but I can validate her feelings if I'm aware of something going on. I don't badmouth her F. I do say things like "you're right, that was totally unfair," "name calling is not okay," and "I don't blame you at all for being upset." I also sometimes try to tell her what I think would be a healthy reaction from her F, since it's not being modelled, whether telling her how I would have reacted to a situation, or hiw my own F would have reacted ("my dad probably would have just said he was busy at the moment but would be happy to look at it in a while").

But I have to let go of the idea that I can make it haplen that she has a certain kind of F. That ship has sailed, this is the roll of the dice we got. I know my DD will want to make her relationship with her F about her and her F, not about worrying if I will read something ir react a certain way ir see it like she sees it or have to defend her F and maybe later stop wanting to defend her F but feel like she'd be admitting she was wrong before and all that complicated crap.

[Rose1]

Its pk and very important for you to have your family values for your new family. Kids respond to boundaries too and they actually like to know where they stand. This is not likely to be implemented in a house including a pd.

So have a think about your values that aren't tied in with your ex. For example in our house we speak respectfully. Its ok to vent, and its ok to be angry but we learn how to manage these emotions so we remain in a peaceful respectfully environment (good example about not giving into a tantrum).

Then about choice of friends, what is good and what isnt. (Exbpdhs friends were not good and my daughters knew it -they brought it up).


Another one might be we all help in the house so we can have free family time

If possible give reasons for your values. And have a strong expectations that in your house thats what they are. Kids can contribute, in fact its good they do. Even a small one like we all eat dinner together and talk about our day might go down well.

So when you get questions about ex, often it comes down to that what he does at his house but we dont do that here and this is why.

[eclecticmom]

Thank you for all the replies; they are helpful, reassuring, and good food for thought. 

Honestly, we are pretty much continuing the same as when DH was here.  It was like having someone there but not, the whole time.  I could have insisted it be otherwise, though my attempts at asking nicely early on were resisted and excused.  I didn't persist, and that's probably on me.