I've been thinking more about the interference in friendships lately, how any new friendship is subjected to sabotage attempts through slander and telling about "gaslighting" situations (trying to make the friend think something is mentally wrong with you). All of this is making me think about romantic relationships. While some of us are single and/or not dating right now, others here are married or are in serious relationships, so I would like to hear from both sides...when you moved out, how did you handle any sabotage attempts early in your romantic relationship?
Did you have to warn your significant other from the very beginning that there may be sabotage attempts or slander, so that they would know to expect it? How long did you have to keep your relationship private after moving out, if you were low/limited contact instead of no contact and/or had many mutual contacts (grapevine)? Did they ever try to call them or talk to them in person, in one of their sabotage attempts, trying to convince them that you're a liar/have mental issues/will take advantage of them?
What do you wish you would have done differently, if anything, to handle the situation early in the relationship? How did your significant other handle it?
A little off topic, but did you find it (or would you have found it) easier to move out if you finalized paperwork and quietly began moving some boxes before telling them you were moving? How long did you wait to tell them you were moving, and how did they react?
Quote from: NotCryingGlitter on March 19, 2023, 11:34:01 PM
Did you have to warn your significant other from the very beginning that there may be sabotage attempts or slander, so that they would know to expect it? How long did you have to keep your relationship private after moving out, if you were low/limited contact instead of no contact and/or had many mutual contacts (grapevine)? Did they ever try to call them or talk to them in person, in one of their sabotage attempts, trying to convince them that you're a liar/have mental issues/will take advantage of them?
SO much yes here. When I met my husband, this was one of the first conversations we had. In hindsight, it is a wonder we had a second date. I unloaded a lot on that first one:). I told him everything from day one. He didn't believe it could possibly be that bad.....and then he saw it first hand. It's also happened with friends, siblings, distant relatives on social media, etc. I've had to just get used to the idea that not everyone will know the truth about me. Eventually, the truth comes out. I received some pretty hellish DM's from distant cousins about what a terrible daughter I am. I had to block people until they also figured it out and apologized. My unpd parents STILL triangulate me with my siblings.
I moved out the day after I graduated from high school, into the home of an aunt who was able to see through the toxic behavior. Didn't give them much time to consider my plans.
My mom often tried to be the "cool mom" and befriend my friends. Unfortunately her go to move to accomplish this was to mock me to try to get a laugh out of them at my expense. ::) I don't think she ever bothered with a full on smear campaign or slandering behind my back. She was the waif/hermit variety of uBPD and tended to be more hands off than a lot of parents described on this board.
She was also famous for not imposing many (if any) rules as a parent and then flipping out when I crossed some invisible boundary I had no idea existed. This happened a lot around dating and sex. When I was 14 or something she set a basket of condoms on the back of the toilet. That was the extent of our "sex talk". She came of age in the 60s and 70s and was always talking in a way that today would be considered "sex positive". So, between her prevailing attitude and the basket of condoms I took it as a sign that she was okay with me having sex, as long as I was responsible. Fast forward a couple of years to when I tell her that I had had sex and wow, was her reaction a surprise! It was the single most violent outburst I experienced from her. She hit me so hard that my head bounced off of the passenger side car window I was sitting next to. Needless to say, I was beyond confused.
I learned pretty early on in college not to communicate with her about my romantic life. If I told her I was excited about someone she would launch into projections of doom and gloom. Her variety of this was typically a bunch of predictions that I was going to be used and abused (always before she had met the person, or learned anything about them). It ranged from annoying to excruciating, so I just stopped talking to her about it. I didn't really have a clear enough sense that something was wrong with her to forewarn anybody coming home to meet her. But, it was always uncomfortable for a number of reasons so I didn't usually bring people home to meet her very often after I moved out.
Moving out could be a short story of its own! Like most teenagers I planned on moving out to go to college. Although I had had zero help from her navigating applying for college, financial aid, finding and apartment, etc. it was still the plan and one I thought she and I agreed on. Fast forward to the end of Summer after my senior year. I had 4-5 friends over for a day time barbecue that was a really sweet impromptu end of summer celebration before we all went our separate ways. One of my friends younger brothers had a beer and I had my boyfriend stay over that night. These two points became the focal point for one of her most epic melt downs. The teen boy who drank the beer had the most liberal parents ever, they definitely did not care and she knew that, they were old family friends. And my boyfriend had stayed over many nights before with the knowledge of my mom and his parents. It was never a problem before. But suddenly, when she came home from work the next day to find me and said boyfriend cooking soup, she was a screaming, ranting monster. I ended up throwing everything I could into my car that night and leaving for good. It was the most pathetic goodbye and I remember feeling that I was dealing with a toddler. We maintained contact until her death and there was never an apology, explanation, or any mention of that ridiculous day.
Quote from: Liketheducks on March 20, 2023, 11:13:05 AM
Quote from: NotCryingGlitter on March 19, 2023, 11:34:01 PM
Did you have to warn your significant other from the very beginning that there may be sabotage attempts or slander, so that they would know to expect it? How long did you have to keep your relationship private after moving out, if you were low/limited contact instead of no contact and/or had many mutual contacts (grapevine)? Did they ever try to call them or talk to them in person, in one of their sabotage attempts, trying to convince them that you're a liar/have mental issues/will take advantage of them?
SO much yes here. When I met my husband, this was one of the first conversations we had. In hindsight, it is a wonder we had a second date. I unloaded a lot on that first one:). I told him everything from day one. He didn't believe it could possibly be that bad.....and then he saw it first hand.
What did you tell him on the first date? What happened during the first time or two he saw it, and how long did it take to happen after she found out about him? I'm assuming he recognized it the first time he saw it?
Quote from: monamurre on March 20, 2023, 04:11:40 PM
My mom often tried to be the "cool mom" and befriend my friends. Unfortunately her go to move to accomplish this was to mock me to try to get a laugh out of them at my expense. ::) I don't think she ever bothered with a full on smear campaign or slandering behind my back. She was the waif/hermit variety of uBPD and tended to be more hands off than a lot of parents described on this board.
She was also famous for not imposing many (if any) rules as a parent and then flipping out when I crossed some invisible boundary I had no idea existed. This happened a lot around dating and sex. When I was 14 or something she set a basket of condoms on the back of the toilet. That was the extent of our "sex talk". She came of age in the 60s and 70s and was always talking in a way that today would be considered "sex positive". So, between her prevailing attitude and the basket of condoms I took it as a sign that she was okay with me having sex, as long as I was responsible. Fast forward a couple of years to when I tell her that I had had sex and wow, was her reaction a surprise! It was the single most violent outburst I experienced from her. She hit me so hard that my head bounced off of the passenger side car window I was sitting next to. Needless to say, I was beyond confused.
I learned pretty early on in college not to communicate with her about my romantic life. If I told her I was excited about someone she would launch into projections of doom and gloom. Her variety of this was typically a bunch of predictions that I was going to be used and abused (always before she had met the person, or learned anything about them). It ranged from annoying to excruciating, so I just stopped talking to her about it. I didn't really have a clear enough sense that something was wrong with her to forewarn anybody coming home to meet her. But, it was always uncomfortable for a number of reasons so I didn't usually bring people home to meet her very often after I moved out.
Moving out could be a short story of its own! Like most teenagers I planned on moving out to go to college. Although I had had zero help from her navigating applying for college, financial aid, finding and apartment, etc. it was still the plan and one I thought she and I agreed on. Fast forward to the end of Summer after my senior year. I had 4-5 friends over for a day time barbecue that was a really sweet impromptu end of summer celebration before we all went our separate ways. One of my friends younger brothers had a beer and I had my boyfriend stay over that night. These two points became the focal point for one of her most epic melt downs. The teen boy who drank the beer had the most liberal parents ever, they definitely did not care and she knew that, they were old family friends. And my boyfriend had stayed over many nights before with the knowledge of my mom and his parents. It was never a problem before. But suddenly, when she came home from work the next day to find me and said boyfriend cooking soup, she was a screaming, ranting monster. I ended up throwing everything I could into my car that night and leaving for good. It was the most pathetic goodbye and I remember feeling that I was dealing with a toddler. We maintained contact until her death and there was never an apology, explanation, or any mention of that ridiculous day.
I'm so glad you didn't get a head injury, but I hate that it happened. She shouldn't have set that basket there with you being under the age of consent.
How did your boyfriend react about her to you?
My mother tried to manage all my relationships. I was so far into the FOG that I did not see it for what it was, although I had some protective instincts.
The worst stage was when I was in my mid to late teens and being groomed by an older, married, employee at my school. At one stage I thought he would leave his wife for me. My parents knew what was going on but did nothing to discourage it. Then I learned the wife was pregnant and I ended the relationship. I was terribly unhappy and my mother thought the way to comfort me was to tell me what to say to him in order to try to rekindle the relationship and then force me to telephone him to say these things. It did not work. She then enquired about sex and seemed very surprised when I divulged that I had not permitted full intercourse (because I was terrified of getting pregnant at 17 and he never had any condoms). The next thing she did was to send me to her gynaecologist with instructions that he should perform a physical examination to make sure I was actually fit for sex! Thankfully she did not attend the appointment and the doctor could see that I wanted no part of this, so he just gave me some sensible advice and sent me on my way.
I think it rankled for a long time that I never told my mother when and with whom I eventually lost my virginity. She never asked outright.
A year later I fell heavily in love with a very unsuitable man. My family were right about that, as it turned out, but it was my mistake to make. My mother did everything to discourage the relationship, including having him arrested and then taking me abroad to where they were living at the time. I pretended I had got over him so I could go back home, supposedly to university. I found him and then I married him post haste. At that point I was thrown out of the family. But my mother eventually made contact again as she needed my supply. After I left him she flew back every time I reported a new boyfriend and tried to engineer a marriage. She would flirt horribly with them. My current husband got the same treatment but he was immune to her charms. That was probably a major factor in my deciding he would be a safe husband for me to have. I think she then thought she could get to him via his father as her flirting with him was even worse. But the father saw straight through her and on the day he met her he pulled his son aside and told him to be careful as my mother is a very dangerous woman. MIL is a fellow PD so I reckon my mother sensed she would not get anywhere with her.
My mother eventually realised she would not be able to control my husband directly, nor would she be able to control him via me. She was still able to exert control over me but my husband was now a good buffer zone for me. Just as she could hide behind my father and claim his influence if she wanted something done/not done so I could hide behind my husband. Her final major attempt at control of the relationship was when she realised I was unlikely to produce grandchildren for her. She thought I was getting rather old (I had just hit 30) so she rang MIL. She told MIL to put pressure on my husband to have children with me in case it was he who was refusing, and told MIL that if we did not produce grandchildren for her then she would disinherit me. MIL was appalled and reported the conversation to my husband, who was equally appalled, as was I when he told me.
Quote from: NarcKiddo on March 21, 2023, 08:02:40 AM
My mother tried to manage all my relationships.
Your story...I feel so much for you and am so sorry you had to endure that. I also understand the "you're 30" thing, when many women over 30 have a clock that is still ticking without issue, cuz I've gotten similar comments. They grew up in a different time, but that doesn't justify the comments, because it's common sense women put children on hold longer these days.
You said her "final" attempt? Not that it justifies any abuse, but it seems her obsession with sexual things would lead to believe she had been sexually violated as a child.
Quote
What did you tell him on the first date? What happened during the first time or two he saw it, and how long did it take to happen after she found out about him? I'm assuming he recognized it the first time he saw it?
When I think about it now, I know that this oversharing was probably inappropriate and a trauma response from me. I no longer do that. Our first "date"....the day we met....we ended up sitting and talking about everything. We sat together for 8 hours before we parted that first day. He just listened.
He was a knight in shining armor. So, he didn't really see it in all its "Glory" until many, many years later. In fact, I'm not sure he was really in tune with how the gaslighting made him feel emotionally. It wasn't until we had my mom move in with us and lived with it daily. And, I eventually had to have her move out....that he began to recognize it. In his family, he would have similar behavior, but no violence. He comes from a culture that isn't really emotionally available nor would cutting off FOO be at all an option to him....and certainly getting any kind of counseling is taboo. It was a death from a thousand cuts for him. He was still in the FOG on my behalf long before it had started to lift for me. I've had to erect boundaries with my FOO for us both - but I think that is really probably my responsibility alone. And, my family tried and did pit me and my husband against each other until he realized what they were doing.
Quote from: NotCryingGlitter on March 21, 2023, 08:59:36 AM
You said her "final" attempt? Not that it justifies any abuse, but it seems her obsession with sexual things would lead to believe she had been sexually violated as a child.
There has never been the slightest hint from her of anything like that. Nothing I know of the family history would suggest that, either, but who knows? All the history I know has come from her. She is certainly obsessed with sex and always has been.
After that "final" attempt she seemed to give up on trying to manage my marriage, although she would still try to manage me. That said, I considered divorce some years ago and told my FOO. They were so pleased that it made me totally rethink. I talked things through with my husband, we ironed out many of our problems, and remain together. We still have our fair share of issues (who doesn't?), especially as we are both from PD families, but the marriage is stronger and more satisfying for both of us.
Quote from: Liketheducks on March 22, 2023, 01:17:28 PM
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What did you tell him on the first date? What happened during the first time or two he saw it, and how long did it take to happen after she found out about him? I'm assuming he recognized it the first time he saw it?
When I think about it now, I know that this oversharing was probably inappropriate and a trauma response from me. I no longer do that. Our first "date"....the day we met....we ended up sitting and talking about everything. We sat together for 8 hours before we parted that first day. He just listened.
He was a knight in shining armor. So, he didn't really see it in all its "Glory" until many, many years later. In fact, I'm not sure he was really in tune with how the gaslighting made him feel emotionally. It wasn't until we had my mom move in with us and lived with it daily. And, I eventually had to have her move out....that he began to recognize it. In his family, he would have similar behavior, but no violence. He comes from a culture that isn't really emotionally available nor would cutting off FOO be at all an option to him....and certainly getting any kind of counseling is taboo. It was a death from a thousand cuts for him. He was still in the FOG on my behalf long before it had started to lift for me. I've had to erect boundaries with my FOO for us both - but I think that is really probably my responsibility alone. And, my family tried and did pit me and my husband against each other until he realized what they were doing.
Oh wow the date was the day you met. The fact that he listened for 8 hours, and even about that...sounds like it was love at first sight. :)
I wouldn't call it a trauma response in this scenario. I think that your heart was telling you that this was the right person you needed to be talking to. A trauma response would've been telling anyone right away, but I'm sure that your heart was telling you that he was a safe place...like you just had this gut feeling or instinct that he could be trusted. A lot of romance in that story there.
It also sounds your heart helped open his heart up emotionally.
Quote from: NarcKiddo on March 22, 2023, 01:46:31 PM
Quote from: NotCryingGlitter on March 21, 2023, 08:59:36 AM
You said her "final" attempt? Not that it justifies any abuse, but it seems her obsession with sexual things would lead to believe she had been sexually violated as a child.
There has never been the slightest hint from her of anything like that. Nothing I know of the family history would suggest that, either, but who knows? All the history I know has come from her. She is certainly obsessed with sex and always has been.
After that "final" attempt she seemed to give up on trying to manage my marriage, although she would still try to manage me. That said, I considered divorce some years ago and told my FOO. They were so pleased that it made me totally rethink. I talked things through with my husband, we ironed out many of our problems, and remain together. We still have our fair share of issues (who doesn't?), especially as we are both from PD families, but the marriage is stronger and more satisfying for both of us.
Either that, or someone else in her family could be a victim; something seems to have triggered her obsession, because at 14...that's not consensual.
You make a good point...anytime abusive parents seemed please is probably a sign that what they think is the wrong choice. I'm glad you were able to work things out with him.
I would like to hear some more stories, if some additional members would like to share.
I've been thinking about it a lot lately, especially with me trying to hold onto some percent of hope that a certain person will wake up and see that they're missing out on someone who would break down their walls and build a bridge better than anyone else could for them, and so I'm not sure how to best handle the situation, if it hopefully happens.
I guess that there's also that fear that they all would just rather stay away because they don't want to get involved in any of the complications or chaos, so hearing that others made it work provides a little hope. Of course, there's also the fact that some so-called friends are the same way...they think it's better to not get involved than be a support system, even though they're missing out on a friend who would never betray them and always be there for them...which seems to be rare these days.
I still would love to hear some additional perspectives, if someone would like to share? It would help in making decisions in the future. :)
I'm not sure what you're asking for, to be honest - it sounds like you're planning how to manage friendships around your mother? Not that she was ever truly interested, but I very simply didn't involve mother in my relationships, whether friendships or romantic. I didn't invite anyone to her house while I lived there. After I left, if she happened to be at my house when someone stopped by, she was introduced and included in conversation just like anyone else. I just didn't ask for her advice or what she thought about them or include her in group outings beyond a random lunch or dinner with a friend. I didn't really explain why to others. "We've never been close" was an easy out, plus being around her for even a short while there's a sharp edge that most people pick up on. And she takes up all the oxygen in the room, if you get me. It limits interaction, definitely limits repeat performances.
Basically by the time anyone met her, people were aware it was different. She'd made it painfully clear even early on that I wasn't really wanted, so I learned to live my own life and make my own friends. Her "approval" was usually the kiss of death, as it meant she saw them as an ally and someone she could bond with against me. She loved to make me the butt of her "jokes" particularly if there was a man in the room.
I guess that I'm more of questioning how people handled it, who were not at a place of fully going no contact/limited contact at that time, or who were not able to move out yet. Or, how they handled it if the parents were in close contact with the significant other's family, etc. Maybe I should specify that it would be helpful to hear from people who live in smaller areas, where it's harder to have relationships in secret, or have more privacy in them, because it's hard not to be surrounded by the parents' "supporters". If that helps it make more sense. :)
I grew up in a very small town, so I get where you're going. I learned to live my own life without apology - you really don't have to justify, argue, defend or explain [JADE] your choices as an adult. I understand living in their house there are certain restrictions and expectations, but respect is still due everyone. Her asking or demanding information doesn't mean she's entitled to the details. You're dating/been out a few times. S/he's a friend. You don't know what if anything will come of it, just enjoying the ride for now. It's too soon to tell. etc.
I wouldn't keep it secret, no, but neither would I request or welcome her [or others] overbearing interference. I had to learn early to zip it and keep conflicting opinions to myself, and depend on others to do the same. Adults deserve privacy, most especially in their more intimate friendships and relationships - anyone who butts in gets what they get, in my world. Probing questions get "the look" and a change of subject or a well placed "why do you ask?" with a smile. I wish I'd learned that decades ago, would have saved me a world of heartache.
Learn medium chill and to tamp down over excitement - she'll be all over that if she's like mine, trying to throw a damper on it.
Quote from: moglow on March 28, 2023, 03:21:11 PM
I grew up in a very small town, so I get where you're going. I learned to live my own life without apology - you really don't have to justify, argue, defend or explain [JADE] your choices as an adult. I understand living in their house there are certain restrictions and expectations, but respect is still due everyone. Her asking or demanding information doesn't mean she's entitled to the details. You're dating/been out a few times. S/he's a friend. You don't know what if anything will come of it, just enjoying the ride for now. It's too soon to tell. etc.
I wouldn't keep it secret, no, but neither would I request or welcome her [or others] overbearing interference. I had to learn early to zip it and keep conflicting opinions to myself, and depend on others to do the same. Adults deserve privacy, most especially in their more intimate friendships and relationships - anyone who butts in gets what they get, in my world. Probing questions get "the look" and a change of subject or a well placed "why do you ask?" with a smile. I wish I'd learned that decades ago, would have saved me a world of heartache.
Learn medium chill and to tamp down over excitement - she'll be all over that if she's like mine, trying to throw a damper on it.
Unfortunately, the situation hasn't happened, but there's a certain someone that's being prayed about -- in hopes that it will. And, if it does, I want to have a plan on how to best prepare. That being said, the friendship interference is already present, so it's always good to hear how other people handled the situations, friendship and more, both before and after moving out.
It's also good to hear how people handled it for the significant others and friends that are already known in the parents' circles. It's "somewhat" easy to have a friendship or relationship with someone they don't know, because you get a fresh start. But if the people are people they already know, or whose family they know, it's helpful to know what steps were taken to introduce those new friendships and relationships to the survivor's world...and keep them on your side in the process of both of you being in the same circles as the parents, circles that buy into the parents' front. And how the friendship and relationship handled the parents' slandering and sabotage attempts.
Especially how any of it was handled before being able to move out.
People will show you who they are, Glitter. Those who fall for slander or sabotage, you kinda need to know about and you'll learn as you go. It doesn't have to be all or nothing with anyone, there's lots of gray area when you're willing to look for it. Main thing is, be who YOU are, not who she says you are. The truth will out, and if someone falls to the wayside due to her machinations that's on them and their choices. It still doesn't change who you are.
You can't possibly prepare for all the possibilities, but being aware will be your friend. Nobody should have to pick sides, but maintain their own boundaries enough to stay out of things that aren't theirs.
Quote from: moglow on March 28, 2023, 04:14:37 PM
People will show you who they are, Glitter. Those who fall for slander or sabotage, you kinda need to know about and you'll learn as you go. It doesn't have to be all or nothing with anyone, there's lots of gray area when you're willing to look for it. Main thing is, be who YOU are, not who she says you are. The truth will out, and if someone falls to the wayside due to her machinations that's on them and their choices. It still doesn't change who you are.
You can't possibly prepare for all the possibilities, but being aware will be your friend. Nobody should have to pick sides, but maintain their own boundaries enough to stay out of things that aren't theirs.
Maybe I'm not being specific enough (sorry, just trying to be careful what I say online). I'm interested in knowing specific steps people took during their interference scenarios. For example, did one of the parents try to sabotage relationships or friendships through calling the person, their family, or stopping by their workplace or home? Possibly trying to get the person to believe you are a liar or are taking advantage of them, etc. How was that situation handled by you (the survivor)? It's very insightful and helpful to hear the various stories of relationship interference and the pros and cons on what to do about it.
Before I give up on this thread, I wanted to ask one more time if any other members would like to share their experience with this issue?
Hi NotCrying,
I understand your question, and I also understand the responses from fellow been-there-done-that Out of the FOG friends.
Dear NotCrying, there are no magic words, castle moats, or step by step how to guides to keep other people from trying to interfere in our relationships with other people, or even with ourselves.
A good relationship with a suitable partner has nothing to do with "keeping out" other people. It has to do with being centered in yourself, with a partner who is centered in themselves, and the two of you remaining centered on your relationship with each other.
As your relationship develops, you will naturally share things with one another, and that includes painful things. It includes fears and hopes and anxieties. Family history and relationships are part of that sharing. (A new friend once blurted out to me, "My mom is a "&$#," and we bonded right away ;)
An adult with clarity and integrity will want to be in relationship with you, and no amount of interference from anyone else will change that. This person will not need warning or protection from scheming outsiders, and you will not need to head off potential attacks from people who want to control you by undermining your relationship.
Live your boundaries in you and for you. Love your lovable self, and cherish your privacy. Anyone who "falls for" your family's manipulations is not centered enough in themselves to be deserving of a relationship with you.
And if need be, you can always just quote my friend: "oh and by the way, my mom's a $#@&." ;)
My mother is more the engulfing type than the sabotaging type... not that her intrusiveness couldn't be sabotaging in its own right, but it's more like she seeks to enmesh with the people I'm close to as an additional way of being enmeshed with me.
I'd been dating my husband for about 6 months when she started putting a lot of pressure on me about "getting to know him." She wasn't interested in allowing that to happen naturally. She pretty much wanted me to force him to attend family events. And I regret to say that I tried. For a while. I am thankful that my husband resisted, and it didn't take too long before I had one of many epiphanies, this particular one being: Why am I trying to force a grown adult into doing something they clearly don't want to do? And then: Why does my mother think that's an appropriate thing to want/ask for?
We've been together for 20+ years now. He's met my parents a dozen times or so. They are civil, but they do not have a relationship. And we've always had an unspoken rule that we don't talk to each other's parents on the phone or spend time with them alone (his mother is also PD). It wasn't something we ever discussed and it wasn't really about worrying that our parents might talk bad about us. It was more like, "I don't want to spend time with my mother, so I'm certainly not going to make you spend time with her..." ;)
I would also like to know how best to navigate this.
See, I live with my parents. I'm almost through with school (college) and ours is a small town.
Everyone knows them in this town. I could try to find a job, and because it was a job I applied for and got without her consent, she sabotages it.
She's gone behind my back, using her brothers and sisters to find people to spy on me and my siblings, so at this point, everyone (I'm sure) has a nasty opinion of us.
I used to think people saw through her charm, knowing what she's really like, and whispered about me because of it, so I developed social anxiety.
But then if no one saw through her, I feared they believed her and thus, the whispers (still not sure if these whispers were all just in my head or if they were real)
Countless times she's charmed her way into finding my bosses' numbers and made sure she has destroyed their confidence in me so that I lose my job.
I hear her on the phone, in their bedroom, telling people (bosses, relatives, colleagues...the next ear) made up ideas about me to discredit me and win them over for more gossip and to have allies for when she needs to "persuade" me or my siblings to do something she knows we may not want to do.
This one time, she was telling my old connect at the place I worked how I'm an absolute bother, irresponsible and unreliable. No surprise I got laid off soon after, even though I was working hard to be considered for a contract extension.
Then another time she implied that she wonders if my head is okay and asked my boss to watch me which probably shook him and next day, I was let go.
I tried to get a job through my sister in the city but she doesn't seem like she wants to help. Like really help. Which is okay, except she knows what our mother is like. I think she just wants me to do it on my own. What I don't know is why, yet she's in a position to help.
I've been on the job hunt to move out for months but somehow, no one's hiring. Getting hired in this town is not likely to happen. I don't want to be a burden to anyone, plus right now, I just feel like everyone has already been turned against me, and that I'm all alone and that she's the only one who can get me a job if I play her game and allow myself to yield.
This is just the career/work part of it.
Last time I brought a friend over to say hi, she lectured my friend on her outfit and my friend had to step out, excusing herself to go. Another time, years before that, I came home from school with my best friends (I was 6 or 7) she told me, after they'd left, never to bring friends over.
I could never tell my friends, growing up, why they couldn't come visit. Or why I couldn't leave the house to hang out. So friendships didn't quite stick. And with my siblings at boarding school, she was pretty much my constant.
Now, it's just the phone calls and the spying...she connects me to possible jobs so that she can keep tabs on me, but whenever I find one on my own, she can go as far as a tantrum and hitting me to get it out of me, knowing my dad won't defend me.
Your question hit home for me here. I would also like to know how someone else has managed it, and been able to navigate friendships and relationships inspite of their PD parents' involvement.
First time posting on the forum, but I've been interested too in finding out about other's experiences of navigating their romantic relationships with PD family.
When I was 30 I had my uN/uBPD/sister bring up marriage (something we'd never really talked about much) within a couple of months of me dating my partner, and telling me not to get married (!), despite her being seemingly happilly married to her husband. She didn't even give any reasons. I was also told that I'd "overshared" about my girlfriend's past life experiences to my mother, despite her asking probing questions, and was then told to dial back on what I told them. I realise now I've grown up conditioned to overshare details of my life with my family - I've realised they don't converse like regular people, and leave silences which I think I've learned to fill by talking too much about myself, and only realised after meeting my partner that this is information gathering, and that they don't actually ask or take much of an interest in me very much.
I had little experience or guidance on how to healthily introduce a partner to family as I only got my first girlfriend at 24. In that instance, my parents told us within a couple of months of us seeing each other when I still lived at home that she was there too much at weekends, which prompted me to feel we were unwelcome, and move in with her after 6 months since I was staying with her every weekend after that anyway (I waited 11 with my current partner, aiming for at least a year!).
I was also told to "be careful" of my current partner as I'm a "nice person" (I think they meant naiive), I think by both my mother and sister when they gathered that she doesn't earn a lot of money, and thought I'd be taken advantage of financially. I had to be firm and tell them she is actually a nice person too, and it's not any of their business how we choose to split bills. They seem to value someone's worth based on their wealth, despite my mother not working since she was in her early 40s, and my stepfather being someone who is proud of his credit card debt and can't see futher than a few months ahead in terms of supporting him and my mother financially. They aren't interested in getting to know my partner, or seeing how happy we make each other, how much we laugh and support each other. Our relationship makes me realise how little my family laugh.
I think with my previous relationship I didn't see my family as much or live as close, to see how bad they were and I didn't dwell on things, plus I also didn't know about BPD and narcissism. My partner comes from a very similar family dynamic and actually guided me to resources to learn for myself names for the behaviours, where I saw a lot of their actions and behaviours were uncanny. My partner has thankfully been my rock when I've struggled with the mistreatment, but I know it's been hard on her too being on the receiving end, and seeing me initially being very upset and confused by my family's behaviour.
My sister and mother can be openly hostile to both me and my partner, giving the cold shoulder, stonewalling including physically turning away when trying to engage them etc, which was mostly triggered by us moving in together. My sister made me very insecure about my partner visiting with her dog in the early days of our relationship and how I risked being kicked out if we were caught (we weren't, and the landlord later approved the dog officially). My sister also raged me when I wanted emotional reassurance about the beauracratic nightmare that was us moving in together, which was the last thing I needed at the time. Me then shutting down socially to cope with the stress, my sister took as a personal insult that she's not forgiven me for. She's then carried on her rage at my not spending time with her, because after my contuninually trying to force myself to socialise with her, realised that spending time with someone who is relentlessly horrible to you and makes you feel like the worst human being alive, is not a healthy situation to keep putting yourself in.
I made the mistake last year of telling my mother how I was really struggling with my sister's long term stonewalling of me (though I didn't know the term back then), and that I might need a break from seeing her, and I got accused of making "assertions" about her behaviour, and my mother just didn't want to know when I was upset, and had the phone put down on me by her husband. My parner tried to speak to my stepdad on the phone which I think for them crossed a line. I was told to get therapy (granted, I've used self help resources now and have learnt to detach feelings about them a lot more in the last few months). I refused to apologise for getting upset at them for their response at me needing help, and had frosty treatment for months. My partner and I were invited over for a meal (which is very rare!) with my parents, and my mum refused to even look at us until after dessert.
OP also mentioned about friends, and funnilly that's got me thinking also about how when I was younger I never used to want to invite friends over, as my mother would always find a reason to blow up at me in front of them (despite not usually doing that as I constantly walked on eggshells around her to keep her calm). I realise that the most supportive my family have ever seemed of me, has been when I was single, and could give them supply and be there whenever they wanted me. When I got with my partner, I had to get reassurance from colleagues and friends that I should just enjoy being happy with her, as my family seemed to be looking for problems before they'd even met her. I just find it incredible how I didn't connect the dots of all this behaviour before the last year or so.
As I said, I've now started to detach emotionally and have stopped sharing so much, and I try and keep to topics that are not personally about me or my partner to a minimum. We decided we'd like to get married this year, and just have the legally required witnesses and no family, and have yet to even tell them. It makes me sad as I always thought we were close - but I think it was just an illusion, and that my family have always put me down and infantilised me. Emotionally detaching from them however has made me feel more like myself again, which has been a god-send.
Maybe I can help.
When my mom was living with us, this happened often. She would use triangulation, splitting, gaslighting, etc. with me and my husband. If I didn't acquiesce to her wants, she'd go after my husband. Trying to manipulate me through him. Thankfully, we made our communication a priority above this. Many conversations were comparing notes. There were many "is it really that bad" conversations.
When I eventually needed to leave our home, it took time for my H to understand the why's. In the course of the move out, Mom split me off from my entire family of origin. My brothers and their wives were all enlisted to "facilitate a reconciliation". I had to hold firm with them over many conversations that I was open to conversation, but mom would have to do it. Honestly, it took years for mom to show her true colors to them. People will absolutely show you who there are. My brothers and I are no longer as close as we once were. As they all came to their own realizations of the manipulative behavior.....the circle of FOO members widened. And, I had grown firmer boundaries. Eventually, she had a second cousin who is also a therapist specializing in PTSD....reach out to me via instant messaging, lambasting me for my treatment of my mom. (By then we'd been VLC for 4 years) Literally, this cousin is an expert in the field. If we weren't related, I'd likely have engaged her services in my healing journey. Mom had HER fooled.
I have given up on trying to control what others think of me. In the past, I would have fantasy conversations with all these FOO and friends justifying my actions. I no longer care. We're all dealing with our own baggage on this journey. If I'm your villain, so be it. I know who I am when I go to bed at night. But, it took a very long time....a lot of good therapy and support.....to get here.
My mother literally threatened my husband on the morning of our wedding if he ever hurt me.
Quote from: Leonor on May 01, 2023, 02:14:41 AMHi NotCrying,
I understand your question, and I also understand the responses from fellow been-there-done-that Out of the FOG friends.
I finally got topic/reply alert e-mails set up. Ha
You make a point about their intentions in the relationship.
What is your advice on if they stopped by the person's work or called them, to try to sabotage with lies? This has already happened in friendships/acquaintance-ships.
Quote from: Cat of the Canals on May 01, 2023, 06:25:55 PMIt was more like, "I don't want to spend time with my mother, so I'm certainly not going to make you spend time with her..." ;)
I'm gonna have to remember this one.
Even though I already feel that way, I like the way you worded it.
That unspoken (for you) rule you mentioned is something to think about discussing in the future...as it would help reduce some of the sabotage attempts (sort of).
Quote from: PeaceBeStill on May 15, 2023, 04:18:45 AMYour question hit home for me here. I would also like to know how someone else has managed it, and been able to navigate friendships and relationships inspite of their PD parents' involvement.
Are we long lost siblings?? Just kidding. Seems like it, though.
In regards to the job, are you able to work remotely? If so, get a remote job with a larger corporation and make it clear that you're not allowed to give out employee contact info (etc.) because it's company policy (which I'm sure is the truth anyway) that they stress. Maybe throw out a comment about how hard it was to get in touch with a recruiter. Worth a try.
I try my best not to always let them know of an interview ahead of time, if I can prevent it. Because, like you, I wouldn't put interference past her, so I try to get the job before I give any info, and even then, I limit it as much as I can. Depending on the boss, sometimes I may make a comment about needing to become financially independent so that I can move out and live on my own, so that if something happens, I've already planted the seed for them to believe my side instead of hers.
Don't ever take a job that she gets you, because she will use it to control and manipulate you and/or the staff, and to know your paycheck info.
Oh I get the list of mental illnesses that she says OTHER people agree with her that I have, including a doctor. If that's the case, when the doctor hasn't seen me and is diagnosing me...yeah.
Have you thought about talking to a local/regional women's shelter, for them to help with some financial planning and other ideas/assistance? You could stop by their admin office or give them a call after class when you're alone (just delete the number from your call log).
I know I'm gonna sound like a hypocrite here, but please don't ever be afraid to talk to the shelter about the physical violence, as they can give you guidance. With you almost out of college, it's best to move out as soon as possible, or she will try to keep you from leaving the house when you don't have classes to go to, making it even harder to find any in-person employment.
Quote from: KeepMyselfAwake on May 25, 2023, 06:20:53 AMFirst time posting on the forum, but I've been interested too in finding out about other's experiences of navigating their romantic relationships with PD family.
Honored that my thread was your first post.
I wonder if some of us have had delayed relationship starts (being older for some firsts) due to the parent issues vs. our personality/luck.
Quote from: Liketheducks on May 26, 2023, 07:22:11 AMMaybe I can help.
I'm guessing her wedding threat didn't seem like a sincere typical one a parent would give in that scenario. More like to make her appear to be protective.
Are you ok sharing some specifics on what she did with the gaslighting and triangulation with your husband, early in your relationship, and how the two of you dealt with it?
Funny how the therapist chose to lay into you rather than ask you if there's anything they can help with, to mend the relationship. She's not even doing her job right.
My narc parents schemed a long time ago (started in my teens) to smear me behind my back so that I'd be isolated, easier to control, wouldn't be able to expose them or tip other's off that they were lying.
So it soon became my reputation that I am a gossipy, haughty, fake, mean person. Per my own parents!
When I approached my parents' with my suspicions, they enjoyed gaslighting me and calling me crazy and depressed.
Soon I found myself completely cut off from my foo.
I begged my parents to stay away from my in-laws. I told my husband but there was nothing he could do. Sure enough, my parents created a campaign of denigration that resulted in my husband being alienated from his parents. My parents feigned astonishment but they were obviously deliriously pleased to have me more isolated than ever.
Not shortly thereafter, my husband and I moved far away from my toxic parents. 1k miles away.
My parents are now in their 70s and I have been No Contact for ages. Their masks have slipped, and people have really started to distance themselves.
Lo and behold, my aging parents are completely broke. No long term life insurance. No income. No savings. No stocks. They planned on living with me! Haha! Nope!
A few relatives have finally come around and asked me why I have been so aloof with the family. They were all fooled by my parents. It is what it is.
Looking back, there's nothing I could have done differently. I did try. But they hanged up on me. And people tend to agree when both parents conduct a smear campaign on their daughter throughout her life.
My marriage went through it but happy to say we survived!
Evil definitely lurks in the world. Lessons have been learned and I am grateful to be on the other side of it.
"In the past, I would have fantasy conversations with all these FOO and friends justifying my actions. I no longer care. We're all dealing with our own baggage on this journey. If I'm your villain, so be it. I know who I am when I go to bed at night"
Thank you for this! I still catch myself having these fantasy conversations in my head all the time. Why I'm not in contact with my mom when we were "so close." Why I no longer "want to have anything to do with" any of my high school friends. Why I moved so far away. Why I'm not in this or that Facebook group. Who am I to just walk away ... When I was the one who was such a mess growing up? And it's so insidious... Other times, I fantasy explain why I was such a mess, or why I survived the way I knew how, or even how I got to be where I am now, with grey hair and wrinkles and lots more poundage... What happened to me? How did I let myself go like this?
It's all from the same place.
Quote from: olivegirl on July 10, 2023, 02:43:27 PMI begged my parents to stay away from my in-laws. I told my husband but there was nothing he could do. Sure enough, my parents created a campaign of denigration that resulted in my husband being alienated from his parents. My parents feigned astonishment but they were obviously deliriously pleased to have me more isolated than ever.
What ended up happening with his parents after you moved?
Quote from: Leonor on July 11, 2023, 07:35:19 AMIt's all from the same place.
I don't have them as often as I used to, about telling them off, but now it's more of daydreaming about my future husband standing up for me to them...something only two people in my life have done.
Sometimes, I daydream about a scenario where a crowd of people they know hear a recording of their abuse, though in reality, there are still some in the crowd who would try to justify it.
It has been 10 years since we have moved and my husband is still alienated from his parents.
They believed every negative word coming from my parents.
His parents have told my husband that I am fooling him and that since my own parents speak so poorly of me, it must be true!
I stayed low contact with my parents, made easier with the long distance between us. Mostly out of strategy as I was frightened of their vindictiveness at the time.
Now that ten years have passed, I feel safer to be No Contact.
The first time my to be husband came with me to visit my family he had them figured out. I remember him talking with me about everything he noticed and me feeling relieved as he put into words what I "knew" but couldn't articulate. We dated 3 years and visited my parents fairly regularly. I did not live at home and had been out of the home for quite a while by that time.
When we did our pre marital counselling things went south. We were doing the counselling with the pastor of the church I grew up in and that my parents were attending. He knew my mom fairly well and counselled us on how to set boundaries regarding our time and availability to visit as we were travelling 2 hours to my hometown for the counselling and didn't always have time to go to my parents afterward.
On one occasion we stopped in to visit my parents but had limited time (around an hour) before we had to leave to go back to the city. My mom went silent and got mad because we said we had to go. She then stormed from the room. We were so confused. My dad sent me to talk to her and she said she was mad because she didn't have time to get to know my future husband. For 3 years prior she had been continuously asking why we weren't getting married yet/if we were going to get married.
The next day she called and said it was all my DH fault that she didn't know him. It got quite heated and I set a boundary. She didn't like it and started yelling at me. I told her if she continued I would hang up. She continued, I hung up. I left my apartment and went to a friends house as I knew she would continue to call. I'm glad I did. I don't know how many times she called but she left some very scary voice mails. I don't remember what they said... I remember the tone of her voice. She was choking with rage in most of them.
When I did talk to her a week later. She told me to never hang up in her again and that she contemplated suicide bc I hung up on her. I told her if she said that again I would phone the ambulance to show up at her door.
This was the beginning of a very rocky patch that eventually led to a full breakdown in our relationship.
I'm not sure if this is helpful... but it's what happened.
Quote from: Sojourner17 on July 12, 2023, 10:37:47 PMNow that ten years have passed, I feel safer to be No Contact.
You would think his parents would at least be willing to hear him out considering you moved so far away from your parents, which means there's a reason.
Quote from: Sojourner17 on July 12, 2023, 10:37:47 PMI'm not sure if this is helpful... but it's what happened.
Did you warn him about them when you first started dating? I'm curious how people navigate the early stages, before the significant other is in the middle of all of it.
When he first met them, what were some of the things he said he noticed? I wonder how it looks to the outsider. It's hard to see what other people see, because we're so used to only knowing the suffering.
Quote from: olivegirl on July 12, 2023, 08:52:18 PMIt has been 10 years since we have moved and my husband is still alienated from his parents.
They believed every negative word coming from my parents.
His parents have told my husband that I am fooling him and that since my own parents speak so poorly of me, it must be true!
I stayed low contact with my parents, made easier with the long distance between us. Mostly out of strategy as I was frightened of their vindictiveness at the time.
Now that ten years have passed, I feel safer to be No Contact.
After all this time, a part of you wants to think that they should realize more things, with the two of you not around, but I guess it's hard to say if his parents still keep in touch with your parents. It's crazy that they don't recognize that you're still together 10 years after moving...that something must be right.
Hi Glitter,
Over the years, I have consoled myself with the hope that people figured my malignant parents out.
Unfortunately no one ever has!
Well, my parents started very early in scapegoating next—-age 8! So I have been the target of their smear campaign for basically my entire life and I have had to struggle to survive with having not the best reputation.
What do we say? "Where there is smoke...there is fire." Both of my parents were very invested in the smear campaign against me in order to prevent from being exposed with their lies.
My husband's parents believed my parents' smears against me. Why would they lie? And both of them?
Well because my Npd father was "self-employed" but not generating any income bc he was a failure at business. But he couldn't let anyone know that! He had an image to protect. So my father would lie that he paid for my college tuition, that he generously gives me spending money weekly because he is so wonderful!!! All lies.
My mother the Bpd Queen/Witch is also obsessed with looking wealthy. But it didn't help that Npd dad was struggling. So she'd put her full-length mink coat and diamond necklace on credit because she just had to give off an air of wealth. Would it not be better for my mother if I was estranged from my in-laws because then I'd be all hers! And no one would believe me anyway because I have been thoroughly discredited.
And every once in a while, just to keep me in my place, my bpd queen/witch mother would start a vicious rumor and tell everyone she heard it from me! Of course!! Well look who has an established reputation as a rumormonger!!!! Again, how beneficial for my spendthrift parents masquerading as uber-wealthy and generous parents.
It did cause major stress in my marriage.
My husband and I decided that we and our three kids best move far away.
And since we have moved, there is so much PEACE.
Quote from: olivegirl on July 21, 2023, 07:11:08 PMAnd since we have moved, there is so much PEACE.
How did you handle the beginning stages of your relationship with your husband, when you were dating? What steps did you and he take? Did he believe you right away or did just witnessing their behavior make him realize the truth?
Sorry for late reply. Just now seeing this.
My husband and I did not interact with our parents much when we were dating.
We both synched in not clicking with our parents.
We focused more on what we wanted our future to be like and we both agreed early on that we did not respect our parents or viewed their marriage as any sort of model that we would aim to follow.
That understanding meant we got each other.
Essentially, it was two scapegoats finding each other!
Yes my mom also let me do whatever. I was not the valued child so.
I chose partners that understood I was not going to have children and did not get along with my family very good.
I broke up with two guys ever the rest broke up with me.
1- money credit problems he was not working on and I was really really driven to improve my lot in life financially.
And 2 - a complete mama's boy who LOVED my family and completely "got " them.
Nope.
Currently I am in a long term relationship that is having real difficulties. Family / psychology/ attachment styles