Fleas or uPD?

[thirstywork]

I'm used to dealing with BPD. I have lots of sisters, and one of them has BPD which has been the source of major troubles over a very long period of time. I'm NC with that sister and life is pretty good.
My parents don't have a good relationship, they don't talk since they divorced. We are a very split family and there's lots of mental health issues fragmented all over the place with everyone.
Generally, I keep my head down, but if I decide I'm done with you then I have no problem cutting you off. I am however pretty tolerant, you have to seriously make a grave error (like emotional abuse) for that to happen.
Since finding this website and other amazing sources of info online my world has dramatically changed for the better. I used to be plagued by the splitting, the hoovering, the flying monkeys. I've been in a good place for a few years.
However, I'm now wondering if my eldest sister (golden child) has something going on, and I can't figure out how to feel about it or if I'm imagining it.

The situation:
Historically I've had a great relationship with my eldest sister, except for 1 blip where we didn't speak for a year. I've always looked up to her, gone to her for advice, leaned on her when I needed help. She has always been a mother figure to me, lectured me when she feels I make poor choices, guided me through navigating adult life.

I started up a cleaning business a couple of years ago and it's become very successful. I cleaned her house twice a week for a discounted rate.
Recently, one of her children caught COVID. I let her know they unfortunately neither I nor my staff would be able to clean her house at this time. She took it really badly, said I was being way more strict than the current rules say, she said they're still going to work and her other kids are going to school. She genuinely couldn't get her head around why I wouldn't do it.
I'm not vaccinated and not all my staff are vaccinated. Thus far, if any of my clients have caught COVID, they reach out and let me know and cancel their clean. They're all extra nice about it.
I firmly put up a boundary with her.
Her kid got better and they were all healthy so I went back and continued the cleaning schedule as normal.
The following week her other kid caught COVID. Now maybe this is my bad but after how horribly the first conversation went, I didn't tell her I wouldn't be coming. I kinda presumed she would know my policy on this by now.
She text me the day of the clean asking where I was. I explained that because her other kid caught COVID I wouldn't be coming, and that it was so awkward last time I didn't particularly want to do the conversation all over again.
She was extremely unimpressed to put it lightly. She gaslit me when I said she was critical the first time.

Then we had a huge family party for an elderly relative, which included a stay away for a few nights. Extended family were invited so there were a lot of people there. Her kid still had COVID, so that kid didn't come, but she still came with her other kids. I thought that was irresponsible to be honest, especially because there were 2 babies at the party. We didn't talk for those few days, and when we passed niceties it was really very awkward. Another sister (one I haven't mentioned) basically didn't talk to me either - I guess she got in her head.
Again, I was an ass. I didn't want to help with cooking etc because I didn't want to be near her (I was attempting to socially distance) and she was always in the kitchen. I'd imagine she thinks I'm an unhelpful, unsociable swine after that weekend.

The next part is we come back and she's decided to cancel all future cleans, no more explanation.

It's actually fine business wise, because I can fill those slots with full price cleans. But it all feels so toxic. It feels like she has manipulated other family members into not talking to me. It feels like I put a boundary up (in the interests of my health) and she tried to smash it down. When she realised she couldn't, she decided to punish me in multiple ways.
I'd imagine the next step is being completely iced out, if we're not already at that stage.

In the past, I've always come back and apologised. I, weirdly, thinking about it, have always assumed she was actually right because she's older and wiser than me. So apologising never felt too bad because I believed I was always wrong.

But this, I don't feel like I'm wrong.

The last time I put a boundary up we didn't talk for a year. I was travelling the world and she guilt tripped me and said I needed to come home and settle down because she didn't want to tell her kids that their aunt doesn't have a job.

What is this??? Simply toxic? Fleas? Some sort of PD I've not recognised in her?

I'm sorry this is so long. Please help! I'm seriously confused!

[xredshoesx]

it could be both or neither but i completely understand your frustration with the COVID angle.

i teach in a building with 800 people in it.  our district masks/ social distances, but pretty much outside of school families are out there living life like there isn't a pandemic.  case in point.  we have rolling class quarantines (students who are testing positive as well as close contacts) and the close contacts who tested negative but were sent home for the ten days aren't able to come back because they are developing COVID from doing whatever they did at home when on 'quarantine'.

it's frustrating.  even though i'm vaccinated the amount of extra work i would have do to on the job should i get quarantined isn't worth it (i see 150 kids a DAY) so our family covid boundaries have been very strict to limit my exposure as much as possible.   i don't remove my mask in our building, won't eat or drink inside, take extra sanitation measures, whatever *i* can do to mitigate my own risk because i can't not do my job.   we don't do a whole lot outside of the house, and only my husband runs in, masked, to pick up our orders.  i've come to a point of radical acceptance with it meaning i have acknowledged i have no control over how anyone else lives in the current state of the pandemic.  i can only control what i do (or don't do in this case).

from a business standpoint i completely understand and support your decision.  maybe your sister doesn't realize how difficult it would be to provide the services you and your employees do for your clients if you are short staffed, or perhaps she does not feel that COVID is as risky as you do.  either way you are not wrong in what you did- however you both may never see eye to eye on this one and it may have nothing to do with your family history of uPD/PD or fleas.  folks have very different opinions on what living with COVID entails-

[thirstywork]

it could be both or neither but i completely understand your frustration with the COVID angle.

Thank you for your response. You're right, and to be honest I don't expect to see eye to eye with her on it. As much as I'm not overly comfortable with her choices, I haven't criticised her over them because it's not up to me what she does.

It's more the response to my boundary that's worrying me. The shutting me out, manipulating other family members, the gaslighting, the attempt at revenge/trying to hurt me by cancelling all future cleans.
COVID just feels like a stick with which to lambast me at this point.

[moglow]

Thirstywork, if I may, it's my feeling that someone who wants to be mad will find a mad. Her dragging others off into it with her just adds insult to injury - but remember they have choices as well. They may feel intimidated and going along to get along, to avoid open warfare with her. You can't stop her talking, but remember that what others say about us ultimately says a lot more about THEM.

[LemonLime]

Hi Thirsty,
I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.   Having someone you love treat you this way can't feel good.   I so "get" your comment about looking up to your older sister all these years and giving her the benefit of the doubt or assuming she is correct.   Because she's older, and it seems like "wiser".   My older sib elicited the same response from me.  Although I never apologized to her for HER rages, I was willing to go along with her game of "it never happened".  Because I loved her.  And I had been under her "spell" (as my friend suggests) all my life.   She is so charming and smart, and she had been manipulating me to see her as some kind of savior. 

In terms of the boundary, my sib very recently did the same to me when I set a very reasonable boundary that I would not stay in a house where she was raging, and that I would remove myself and my children immediately.   Upon me stating my boundary, her lovebombing immediately turned to cutting contempt and sarcasm in an email screed that was simply venomous.   She gaslights me about the incident and I suspect is recruiting "allies" from the FOO and extended family.  That has been very difficult to deal with for me psychologically, but having read these boards for years I understand I must "let it go" because getting involved and trying to mitigate will only make things worse.  Instead I'm working on myself, meditating, making healthy choices, being grateful, etc.

Is your sib a PD?   I don't know, and I would venture the opinion that it doesn't really matter.   She is displaying very emotionally immature behavior at the very least.  I can say absolutely, without having heard her side of the story, that she is NOT behaving as a mature healthy adult.  That doesn't necessarily mean she is a PD.  It does, however, give you the information that YOU need.  Which is to not JADE.  To continue creating healthy boundaries, and to take care of yourself.   And all the rest of the wisdom that has been shared on this board from others who are in similar situations.   Your sib is firing back as hard as she can in order to somehow protect herself.  Or at least she sees the firing back as protecting herself (or her image of herself).   As my hubby says (about my sib):  "You fire a peashooter (set a boundary) and she pulls out a howitzer".   I truly think it is an instinct in them.....it appears to me that my sib shoots back hard in the same way I would blink if someone tried to poke me in the eye with their finger.   It's instinct.  It's self-preservation in their mind.   That's where they are really off.....in their PERCEPTION of threat.    A finger to my eye is a threat to my vision.   A boundary is seen to them as a threat to their whole being instead of an opportunity for a conversation.
And that wreaks havok on their relationships with us and others.

My sib probably does not fit the DSM criteria for covert narc.  But it matters not at all, because luckily the tools that apply to PDs apply to those who have fleas and also to those who are simply emotionally immature.  Which I see as a wonderful gift.   Even though the whole situation sucks.  In a million different ways.
I have found the website of Darlene Lancer so valuable in understanding narcissistic behavior, and how their brains work.  And the role of shame in their reactions to situations.  It fits perfectly for my sib because she feels a lot of shame from her time with my mom as a child.  My mom used to even shake her finger and say "Shame on you!" when she was disappointed with us when we were kids.   

Good luck and keep posting.  We understand and we're here for you.

[thirstywork]

Thirstywork, if I may, it's my feeling that someone who wants to be mad will find a mad.

Ok I know there's a word or two missing from this and I get the gist BUT do you ever just read something that hits different?
Like, this concept has blown my mind a bit and I'm going to have to sit with it for a while. It even makes me question my own thought processes. Wow. Thank you for this.

[thirstywork]

Is your sib a PD?   I don't know, and I would venture the opinion that it doesn't really matter.   She is displaying very emotionally immature behavior at the very least.  I can say absolutely, without having heard her side of the story, that she is NOT behaving as a mature healthy adult.  That doesn't necessarily mean she is a PD.  It does, however, give you the information that YOU need.  Which is to not JADE.  To continue creating healthy boundaries, and to take care of yourself.   And all the rest of the wisdom that has been shared on this board from others who are in similar situations.

Thank you so much for talking about your experiences with your sib. I like the peashooter analogy.
I agree, I suppose it doesn't really matter the label. What matters is the behaviour isn't right and my response could well be what I would apply to my PD sis. I'm allowed to have boundaries, particularly ones that are to do with my health. I'm so used to having my walls battered down that it feels alien to keep them up - with her.
If she wants to ice me out then fine. If she wants to be angry over nothing then fine. She is obviously not feeling good in herself and I'm her scapegoat but hey, not my monkeys. I'm over here minding my own business, not recruiting allies, not disrespecting her, not trying to decimate our relationship. If that's her choice then I will let her play that out on her own, trying to fight will only add fuel to the fire that she will revel in because she clearly wants a battle or she wouldn't be trying to push me.

[JenniferSmith]

I'm over here minding my own business, not recruiting allies, not disrespecting her, not trying to decimate our relationship. If that's her choice then I will let her play that out on her own, trying to fight will only add fuel to the fire that she will revel in because she clearly wants a battle or she wouldn't be trying to push me.

First let me say I am sorry you are dealing with this.

The quote above really spoke to me.  This is EXACTLY what I am dealing with with sibling. I set a boundary related to my actual physical health. This resulted in a nuclear meltdown by sibling. Then they went on smear campaign and ice me out of their life, and when they had an opportunity, did things to purposely hurt me.

Like you, I did nothing except make a choice for myself that this sibling did not like.

A "normal" person, in this case, would have said, "Gosh, Jennifer, I am so sorry you are dealing with that, and understand why you can't attend this important event. We would have loved to have you here, but your health is more important."

But my sibling at a minimum has a major case of the fleas.... so instead, my choice became all about them and their feelings 1000%.

[moglow]

Oh no, I meant it the way it's written - my mother is infamous for seeking out or inventing "a mad" when she's bored. Or because it's too calm or quiet or someone is too happy [in her mind]. She'd rather drag you down and beat you over the head with it than just let you have a good day! All that said, your sister sounds demanding and pushy - and that's not your stuff to fix. If she pushes later for you to start cleaning again, so sorry that spots been filled and you don't have anything available ...

Dragging her kids all over creation knowing one's home sick with covid means more people are being exposed over and over again. Just because others in the household aren't testing positive this minute doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. Her whole family needs to use some common sense and stay home, stop spreading it everywhere when they know there's an active case in the house!

[thirstywork]

The quote above really spoke to me.  This is EXACTLY what I am dealing with with sibling.

Thank you. It's nice to have allies, though I'm sorry you're going through this too 

[thirstywork]

If she pushes later for you to start cleaning again, so sorry that spots been filled and you don't have anything available ...

My exact plan! It may be petty but actually cleaning her house was one of the worse jobs on the books AND she paid less which I was fine to overlook because she's been soooo helpful to me...... until it doesn't work for her I guess

Dragging her kids all over creation knowing one's home sick with covid means more people are being exposed over and over again. Just because others in the household aren't testing positive this minute doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. Her whole family needs to use some common sense and stay home, stop spreading it everywhere when they know there's an active case in the house!

This is 100% how I feel, though her and her partner are vaccinated so that's their hall pass and the kids don't have to quarantine because they're kids. I definitely personally feel like it's a risk and it all makes me extremely uncomfortable BUT we're in unprecedented times and whilst I most certainly feel like I have a right to say what I should do with my body, I don't have a right to say what anyone else should do.
The same, however, might extend to her, if she was less of a controlling toxic sludge about it all.

[thirstywork]

When it rains it pours.
Is that true?
Is that a self-pitying mindset?
Having gone through the abuse we've gone through do we simply attract drama? To get piled upon by thing after thing?
Or do we perceive the drama as greater than at is, are we sensitive souls?
Or is this what happens to everyone? Does everyone occasionally land themselves in a sh*tstorm, to be hailed upon left, right and centre by drama and stress and failure? None of which they asked for?

I want so badly to be some sort of zen master of my emotions. I want to stay calm no matter what's thrown at me. I want to live a peaceful life, I want to smile more, I want to laugh more. I wish nothing ever went wrong. I wish once you got one plate spinning and moved onto the next one, the first one didn't fall and smash all over the floor.

Sometimes each day feels like a battle.

I'm having a really bad day, and I want to scream but I don't want to disturb anyone.
Tomorrow I'm going to go for a drive and scream to my hearts content.

[marymackblack]

Totally agree with Moglow on the 'find a mad' . With my sister, it is like she has a constant satellite searching for the next thing to get angry and then cut me off about. It is the black and white thinking - you're all good or all bad.  Regardless of Fleas or not, it's unsafe and selfish of her. Immature siblings frequently have underlying competitiveness as well.
When I hear that you set a perfectly fair boundary with sibling you've looked up to and you've had a secure relationship / attachment with previously, it says to me that they are not as healthy as you thought.

Boundaries are always going to be your saving grace. And yours was way more than fair, people die from COVID and how selfish of her to not respect that.

[thirstywork]

Totally agree with Moglow on the 'find a mad' .

To be honest, I'm still thinking on this. It makes me wonder if this is something my parents instilled in maybe all of us. They aren't the mentally healthiest of people (but I mean who really is).
I often feel like 'a mad' is something I'm searching for, but in less extreme versions. I feel in myself like I get easily frustrated or I complain a lot. I see a lot of negatives, too easily. I don't tend to take it to the next level of causing fights, drama or cutting people off, but I find myself silently seething a lot of the time. Left to my own devices I can really work myself up and get myself very upset, so I tend to vent a lot to those closest to me so that I don't do that to myself. But I'm also acutely aware that I'm negative, that I complain. Thank god my partner puts up with me.
Perhaps me and all my siblings have had this negative outlook installed from an early age.

I'm really thinking this one through. And potentially, how I'm going to untrain myself from doing it.

[moglow]

That's part of the process, thirstywork. We have to look to ourselves for solutions and better means of moving forward. We find ways to search out [and hopefully destroying] those qualities we dislike in ourselves, letting others be who they are. We make better choices from there.


I remember years ago asking one of my nieces if I reminded her of grandma, holding my breath and afraid of what she might say. She immediately told me that I "used to but you haven't been like that in a long time." I made her promise to tell me if she saw it again and she agreed. She gave me a look now and again, but my awareness made me quicker to quash it when I felt certain things, usually before they took over my whole being.