Out of the FOG

Remember Dad likes to do this. He likes to gather his minions to pay homage to him. He thinks people should, basically, pay him respects etc.

He moaned for weeks that my wife didn't make a special effort to call him on his birthday. Shes never done this before but he was most put out. Same with xmas.
Think he knows hes upset her this year (many times!) and is trying to make sure she knows her place...

Its her birthday this weekend. Again hes come up with "well if I send her a card I hope shes going to call me to say thank you".

Turning it around and playing games again. Wife has no interested in speaking to him - I don't blame her either. BUT of course now hes going to say how ungrateful shes being.....

Honestly. he seems to have a rule book in his head. Everyone should treat me like this. This is him fighting back to assert control again....
I just wish he would leave it. Wife is never going to have a relationship with him but he wont accept it.

I didn't realize getting a birthday card required a formal thank you note.  Or maybe that is what she should do.  Send him a note card saying thanks for the birthday card. This way the card is acknowledged but she doesn't have to interact with him.

A rule book that he revises at whim, and yet everyone should clearly know. As if his thoughts are your brain’s operating system, complete with automatic updates to comply with the latest version.  :roll:

A thank you for a card? Please. The grandiosity and entitlement here! If he makes a tiny effort he expects much much more of a “big effort” in return. The king has descended from his throne to spread his largesse. All hail.  :udaman:  Some people’s pwpd’s hoover with substantial amounts of money, mail every day, etc. I’m glad for your wife’s sake he’s so lazy and stingy, but oh my gosh. 

:spaceship:

Quote from: lkdrymom on January 28, 2020, 06:26:25 AM
I didn't realize getting a birthday card required a formal thank you note.  Or maybe that is what she should do.  Send him a note card saying thanks for the birthday card. This way the card is acknowledged but she doesn't have to interact with him.

Yes note is a good idea!

This idea hes got is crazy. When he came up with "she should phone me on my birthday" it was crazy. Shes never done before. And as I pointed out to him I never specifically call my MIL so whats the big deal about it all.

Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on January 28, 2020, 06:59:04 AM
A rule book that he revises at whim, and yet everyone should clearly know. As if his thoughts are your brain's operating system, complete with automatic updates to comply with the latest version.  :roll:

A thank you for a card? Please. The grandiosity and entitlement here! If he makes a tiny effort he expects much much more of a "big effort" in return. The king has descended from his throne to spread his largesse. All hail.  :udaman:  Some people's pwpd's hoover with substantial amounts of money, mail every day, etc. I'm glad for your wife's sake he's so lazy and stingy, but oh my gosh. 

:spaceship:

He might up it this time and put £10 in the card mind...... He knows this will have more effect....

Yes its what he decides. Hes noticed that my wife has no contact with him. Brothers wife is there all the time and he doesn't like it. Why doesn't she help me like the other one? He even says "I haven't seen her for ages" as if its her duty. To be honest, never going to happen with my wife.

As Eminem says "Won't even be at your funeral". Fully support my wife - its her choice and he has been awful to her over the years. You reap what you sow and all that.

If I were in your situation I'd say "Dad, she dislikes you and she's not going to be contacting you regardless of whether you send her a card, a million dollars or nothing. So give it up. Furthermore, if you start talking about it again, I'm walking out the door."

Quote from: appaloosa on January 28, 2020, 10:26:49 AM
If I were in your situation I'd say "Dad, she dislikes you and she's not going to be contacting you regardless of whether you send her a card, a million dollars or nothing. So give it up. Furthermore, if you start talking about it again, I'm walking out the door."

Yes I've not made it quite so clear to be honest. I'd hoped there'd be no need.
Much as I'd like to point out to him the things he done of course.

He must know hes upset her to be honest. BUT knowing Dad he moves on and its all forgotten about and swept under the carpet. Its almost as if he blanks it from his mind and forgets it ever happened. Its weird. I suppose its like catching your spouse in bed with your best friend then next day they're happily sat there asking what you want to do for dinner. Thats Dad.

When it was his birthday he would not let it go - I had to tell him to drop it then. He then had the cheek to say "its ok,I know its not you're fault". Jeez I nearly exploded.

Its going to come to that. Trouble is I know he'll go into full scale "Oh now what have I done" (as if he has no idea what hes done) followed by "Oh I'm so sorry - I don't want to upset anyone". Then I'll get weeks of it doing my head in.

I remember last time when he pulled a stunt and dragged my wife into it. I had a right go at him and told him he was out of order. He apologised then and asked me to apologise to my wife (no personal phone call there then!). OF course, two weeks later hes back doing the same.

He knows she doesn't want anything to do with him so is using this to help him discard her in his head; 'she's rude so I don't need to think about her (or how I've treated her)'. Don't engage. Shrug your shoulders. 

Mhmm, and he also knows it's a sore point for you and you feel the need to constantly defend your wife by saying "she's busy with work," or whatnot. Once he's got you on the defensive, that's supply, my friend. Mom always did the same dang thing to me until I stopped playing the game. I stopped playing by pretty saying "oh well" to anything she didn't like.

The next time he brings up your wife in any capacity, I'd state only, "You're not her father.  She owes you nothing, so drop it."   :ninja:

Repeat as often as necessary - if you keep saying it, like a broken record, for *any* reason, including he sent your wife a tenner in her card and she hasn't called or  written a thank you note:  "You're not her father.  She owes you nothing, so drop it."

He says, "But it's rude and I sent her a tenner!" (or something along those lines).  :dramaqueen:

Repeat and either leave and or end the call.  Those are your only options, lest he spiral down the not wanting to upset anyone rabbit hole.  :stars:

You can do this - but it means you have to be very strict with somebody who has no concern about how they treat you or make you feel.  You can't let him call the shots - you're the one taking control and putting limits and boundaries on what you will and won't put up with.  8-)

:hug:

Hi p123,

I think you are correct in your assessment that your dad is trying to goad you into a showdown about your wife.

He's going to chip away at you about your wife until you explode (he hopes) and then he's got you in a very vulnerable, manipulative state.

There are two options here, but really there's only one.

Option No. 1--   You could offer no or little response (grey rock) the next time he brings up your wife.  Like when he says something passive-aggressive like "Well, if I send her a card I hope she's going to call and say 'Thank you'" you say "Hmm." and change the subject.

Even if you do grey rock him, though, it's just biding time, IMHO.  Yep, it's headed for a showdown.  He wants to force you into choosing him or your wife. 

Option No. 2-- Grey rock him until he insults your wife.  I think he will, eventually, if you ignore his passive-aggressive jabs by grey-rocking him.   When he does finally insult your wife, set him straight, but not in a hyper-emotional way.  Try to remain calm and say "I'm not going to listen to you insult my wife."  If he denies-- "What do you mean?  I didn't insult her."  You say "Yes you did, and I'm not listening to that."  Then leave.  Or hang up the phone if you are in a phone call. 

He's trying to drive a wedge between you and your wife.  He won't change.  I would be prepared to tell him, calmly, but in no uncertain terms, where you stand.  And when he turns into The Victim and says "What have I done?" (as if he doesn't know), I wouldn't take a nanosecond to explain it to him.  I would say "You know what you did.  And I'm leaving (or hang up)." 

The way to deal with this issue is to cut to the chase.  Don't let him continue to play cat and mouse with you on the subject of your wife.   Let him know where you stand and be firm about it.  Draw a boundary and don't be afraid to set consequences for that boundary.  I wish I had better news, p123, but you can do this!

Yes, your dad, the geriatric toddler, whose rules must be adhered to. Or else. Except of course they don’t have to be at all, p123, as you already well know.

I personally like Andeza’s suggestion of saying ‘oh well’ (along with a shrug) and then changing the subject and/or hanging up/leaving if he persists.

I can say from personal experience that using ‘oh well’ like it’s some sort of tic in response to my own elderly updM has often worked pretty well. For me anyway.  ;) She obviously hated it that I didn’t engage with her rubbish (or, in her parlance I was ‘selfish and didn’t care at all’). And I think this is what keeps on bothering you, p123. You keep stressing about what his next move is going to be and that he won’t he happy about it. But it’s always going to be the same old moves. He has a very limited playbook, honed over the decades. Why would he ever change? There’s absolutely no motivation for him to do so.

But I hope you can continue to change, p. I fervently hope that you can keep moving further along the path of giving way less of a fat rat’s about what his next move might be.

He sounds annoyingly persistent in the extreme (I’ve read many of your other posts) and very like my own updM, who could nag for Australia. And if I was your wife, based on all that you’ve said here about him, I wouldn’t go anywhere near him either. She is being very healthy in her behaviours, and your father doesn’t have to be happy about it. Don’t worry about managing his emotions. They’re his to wrangle. Although he doesn’t have to if you’re doing it for him.

The other thing he’s obviously trying to do is pit your wife against your SIL. Again, my own updM would also constantly do this. She would let me know how wonderful, caring, and helpful to their parents various friends’ and relatives’ golden children were, how much they did, blah blah blahdy blah.

Cue very deadpan reply from me along the lines of, ‘well, they truly are amazing offspring,’ followed by a rapid subject change. I usually then received the patented death stare, some faux-sad shoulder slumping for effect,  followed by some belated ‘punishment’ from updM (who also has the memory of an elephant...a very selective one though).

But what can they really do? Ground us? Cut off our allowances? It’s comical really, when you stop to think about it.

Keep going, p123. Keep fighting the good fight. You’ve nearly got this. You’re so close. I can feel it in my bones.

Also, I read this great sentence in a Dear Prudie advice column the other day. I believe it is very pertinent to your father (and my mother): 

‘The one advantage she has over you is that she is a deeply unreasonable person who is willing to expend a TON of energy trying to exhaust you into giving her what she wants.’

This quote was in answer to a particular woman whose share-house mate, as I recall, was driving her round the bend with random irrational trivialities. But it obviously applies equally to PD males, too - very obviously in your dad’s case, I’d say.  ;D It’s the hallmark of the nagger. They’re just willing to go that extra distance.  :stars:

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on January 28, 2020, 03:48:40 PM
The next time he brings up your wife in any capacity, I'd state only, "You're not her father.  She owes you nothing, so drop it."   :ninja:

Repeat as often as necessary - if you keep saying it, like a broken record, for *any* reason, including he sent your wife a tenner in her card and she hasn't called or  written a thank you note:  "You're not her father.  She owes you nothing, so drop it."

He says, "But it's rude and I sent her a tenner!" (or something along those lines).  :dramaqueen:

Repeat and either leave and or end the call.  Those are your only options, lest he spiral down the not wanting to upset anyone rabbit hole.  :stars:

You can do this - but it means you have to be very strict with somebody who has no concern about how they treat you or make you feel.  You can't let him call the shots - you're the one taking control and putting limits and boundaries on what you will and won't put up with.  8-)

:hug:

ha ha pretty spot on how it happens with him!

Hes mentioned about 10 times in the last few weeks "I haven't seen your wife for over a year now". As if shes duty bound. Its going to be a long wait.

Quote from: illogical on January 28, 2020, 06:04:07 PM
Hi p123,

I think you are correct in your assessment that your dad is trying to goad you into a showdown about your wife.

He's going to chip away at you about your wife until you explode (he hopes) and then he's got you in a very vulnerable, manipulative state.

There are two options here, but really there's only one.

Option No. 1--   You could offer no or little response (grey rock) the next time he brings up your wife.  Like when he says something passive-aggressive like "Well, if I send her a card I hope she's going to call and say 'Thank you'" you say "Hmm." and change the subject.

Even if you do grey rock him, though, it's just biding time, IMHO.  Yep, it's headed for a showdown.  He wants to force you into choosing him or your wife. 

Option No. 2-- Grey rock him until he insults your wife.  I think he will, eventually, if you ignore his passive-aggressive jabs by grey-rocking him.   When he does finally insult your wife, set him straight, but not in a hyper-emotional way.  Try to remain calm and say "I'm not going to listen to you insult my wife."  If he denies-- "What do you mean?  I didn't insult her."  You say "Yes you did, and I'm not listening to that."  Then leave.  Or hang up the phone if you are in a phone call. 

He's trying to drive a wedge between you and your wife.  He won't change.  I would be prepared to tell him, calmly, but in no uncertain terms, where you stand.  And when he turns into The Victim and says "What have I done?" (as if he doesn't know), I wouldn't take a nanosecond to explain it to him.  I would say "You know what you did.  And I'm leaving (or hang up)." 

The way to deal with this issue is to cut to the chase.  Don't let him continue to play cat and mouse with you on the subject of your wife.   Let him know where you stand and be firm about it.  Draw a boundary and don't be afraid to set consequences for that boundary.  I wish I had better news, p123, but you can do this!

To date I've been doing option 1. Ignoring him completely.

Then I think back and think hmm hes been VERY close to insulting her to be honest. Like you said, its not working at the moment, I can see him upping things.
His last comment "its ok I dont blame you" was a bit much. As if hes blaming her for something.

I can't believe he forgets how he treats people. He must know what hes done. Its almost as if hes bulletproof and everyone must forgive him.

To be fair to my wife, if her mother treated me like he does to her I'd have exploded long ago. Wife just ignores him. My MIL is midly annoying though but Dad is in a whole new league.

My dad is like this about cards. He'll ask me if family have received them on the pretext of  being worried they got lost in the post.

I usually pass on a general thank you, but if he makes a fuss beyond that I tell him that my kids love getting cards from him, but also how busy my kids are.

I don't JADE. It's just a statement.

If your dad then says
" Busy doing what?" or 
" I don't blame you" 
then that's rude. 
He's crossed a boundary, and you can calmly tell him that, then politely say goodbye, you must go now because he was rude and crossed a boundary.
It's  unacceptable for him to question you and yours or to even bring in the word, ' blame'.
You and your wife are not separate planets, you are a team. i think he's using her to insult you. You are really the target.

Then ring off.
Give him a consequence of his rudeness.

Until you do that this behaviour will continue. We can't control them but we can change our responses to them.
They enjoy spitting nastiness on the other end of the phone.
I've stopped my dad doing this. It took about a year.
If he lapses or seems like he's going to lapse, I don't accept the phone call. I ring off, always politely. No phone slamming down, ever.
Phones slamming down used to be a favourite of my UNBPD mum. Then she'd ring after two days as if nothing had happened. It became normalised!
Don't allow him to talk scathingly about your wife, and indirectly about you.
He's so disrespectful to you wife and you when he says he doesn't believe you like that. He's trying to get you to say to him that she doesn't like him. Don't allow him to force that out of you, but equally, don't listen to his criticism of her.

I've had quite a few birthdays spoilt by my UNPD parents. I used to get anxious as the date loomed!
Dad wanted me to spend my 60th birthday driving him through a busy city to and from a medical procedure he didn't need.

This is how he asked me,

" I know exactly where YOU are going to be on your 60th birthday! Driving me from my home to the hospital and staying with me to have my procedure, then driving me home and staying over the night WITH ME."

Errrrrr nope.

They think any family birthday is an excuse for them to become the centre of attention once more.

On the last birthday I had before mum died, they talked me into going to see them on my own. ( 2 hour round trip) UNBPD at one point during the day, decided to attack my character, citing it as the reason why UNPD sister in law hadn't come that day.  I held it together until I got in the car to drive home .
I sobbed all the way home. At one point I nearly had to stop driving.
Mum did ring the next day, with 'not quite a sorry,' saying she knew she'd upset me " on my birthday".
I of course told her it was fine. The following birthday she'd passed away. That's my last birthday memory of her.
Sorry, I've gone on a bit here did not mean to hijack your thread. Birthdays eh?

Quote from: p123 on January 28, 2020, 05:13:11 AM
Remember Dad likes to do this. He likes to gather his minions to pay homage to him. He thinks people should, basically, pay him respects etc.

He moaned for weeks that my wife didn't make a special effort to call him on his birthday. Shes never done this before but he was most put out. Same with xmas.
Think he knows hes upset her this year (many times!) and is trying to make sure she knows her place...

Its her birthday this weekend. Again hes come up with "well if I send her a card I hope shes going to call me to say thank you".

Just look at how he's phrased it?
And the conditional nature of the question?
My answer would have been

" It's entirely up to you whether you send her a card. And if you do her reaction will be entirely up to her." 

Don't allow this triangulation to continue.

Quote from: nanotech on January 29, 2020, 07:12:22 AM
My dad is like this about cards. He'll ask me if family have received them on the pretext of  being worried they got lost in the post.

I usually pass on a general thank you, but if he makes a fuss beyond that I tell him that my kids love getting cards from him, but also how busy my kids are.

I don't JADE. It's just a statement.

I know I need to work on this myself - If I don;t visit he wants to know what I was doing. Really annoying.

He thinks he can ask any question and I've got to answer. There should be no secrets and he has to know everything.

I still remember his best ever when we told him wife was pregnant last time. (Bit of background - she was 40 at the time).

"What? You're both a bit old, kids cost money - so was it planned?"

Should have seen my wifes face!

Quote from: nanotech on January 29, 2020, 07:26:13 AM

Quote from: p123 on January 28, 2020, 05:13:11 AM
Remember Dad likes to do this. He likes to gather his minions to pay homage to him. He thinks people should, basically, pay him respects etc.

He moaned for weeks that my wife didn't make a special effort to call him on his birthday. Shes never done this before but he was most put out. Same with xmas.
Think he knows hes upset her this year (many times!) and is trying to make sure she knows her place...

Its her birthday this weekend. Again hes come up with "well if I send her a card I hope shes going to call me to say thank you".

Just look at how he's phrased it?
And the conditional nature of the question?
My answer would have been

" It's entirely up to you whether you send her a card. And if you do her reaction will be entirely up to her." 

Don't allow this triangulation to continue.

Hes got this massive chip on his shoulder that "hes old" and "you know what I'm like" which, he thinks, gives him carte blanche to do what he likes and say what he likes....

In the past, hes said some really awful things to my brother (who I now see deserves it so  I let him carry on now). I'd say "come on Dad, thats not on, you can't say that, its none of your business really".

His reply would always be "You know, if I've got something to say, I've got to say it".

I did tell him last time he did it to me that thinking like that just meant people would think of him and describe him with the word that starts with am A! And if he wanted to go around upsetting everyone with inappropriate comments he'd soon run out of people who want to bother with him (which has happened).

"Yes dad, and if you say it, you know how I am, if I've got to leave, then I've got to leave."

You can do it, p123.  :thumbup:

It is difficult.
The first time I said, "I'm not discussing that, he appealed to my husband to 'put me right'.
My husband laughed and said ' she's the boss'- or some such thing. It diffused it. Hubby's a good people person. He acknowledged my dad's feelings but made sure he realised that he was backing me 100 per cent.
When I said, 'I'm not doing that" ( diverting our journey to pick him up when we were on route to a funeral which would have made us late or even miss the funeral) he again complained to hubby ( outside the crematorium in front of lots of family) about me. Again, hubby acknowledged his feelings but then backed me up, and he diffused it again.
I'm lucky with hubby. Really lucky. Not a disordered bone in his body either.
Believe me, dad is more than willing, and quite capable too,  of trying to steal attention from a corpse. It happened the summer before last.
I've noticed he asks snoopy questions a lot less these days. I always notice and I medium chill it.  :cool2:
I used to recant every single detail of everything.  :blush:
I did it unconsciously, for the much needed approval, which never came, and to top it all I got scapegoated.  :blink: :stars: :aaauuugh:

Quote from: nanotech on January 29, 2020, 08:05:27 PM
It is difficult.
The first time I said, "I'm not discussing that, he appealed to my husband to 'put me right'.
My husband laughed and said ' she's the boss'- or some such thing. It diffused it. Hubby's a good people person. He acknowledged my dad's feelings but made sure he realised that he was backing me 100 per cent.
When I said, 'I'm not doing that" ( diverting our journey to pick him up when we were on route to a funeral which would have made us late or even miss the funeral) he again complained to hubby ( outside the crematorium in front of lots of family) about me. Again, hubby acknowledged his feelings but then backed me up, and he diffused it again.
I'm lucky with hubby. Really lucky. Not a disordered bone in his body either.
Believe me, dad is more than willing, and quite capable too,  of trying to steal attention from a corpse. It happened the summer before last.
I've noticed he asks snoopy questions a lot less these days. I always notice and I medium chill it.  :cool2:
I used to recant every single detail of everything.  :blush:
I did it unconsciously, for the much needed approval, which never came, and to top it all I got scapegoated.  :blink: :stars: :aaauuugh:

Yes I can imagine it must be difficult for you. Bet your husb finds it funny though :-)

I dare not repeat some of the things he says about my wife. Same, like "you need to sort her out" and the like. Yeh right. The way he says it is scary too - I really think he believes a husband has the right to force his wife to do what he wants by any means.

I know how hes been divorced twice to be honest!

And yes he always asks inappropriate questions that are none of his business. "So was the pregnancy planned?" is his classic. Every other week "so how much do you get paid a week?"

One thing I hadn't considered. Its my wifes birthday on Sunday. We've had a bit of discussion and, of course, she wants to go out with the kids etc and not have me rushing off up to Dads. Hmmm I dunno to be honest.
Of course, Dad won't like this its his "set in stone" visit and the thought of me missing one visit will not please him.But then again, he doesn't "need" anything. Its just his need to get me there. Hes got plenty of food.

Trouble is I know he'll angle for me to visit after work one night next week. I can't do. Busy ALL next week - childcare logistics are hell!

My wife, to be fair, has put up with loads off him over the years and seen the way hes treated me. She can no longer bare anything to do with him - fair enough. 90% of the time she puts up with the fact that I'm going to go see him. For instance a lot of sundays, I'll ask what her plans are, we'll come to arrangement and I'll say I'm going to see Dad and she'll agree even if its a little awkward.

Odd occasion she probably could let things go a bit. Basically, she cuts him ZERO slack. Like Sunday, it'll be a case of - its her birthday why should she change plans to fit him in. I can see her point.

I guess I'm not the only person in this situation. Spouse been treated badly by in laws but you're still in contact. On this occasion it feels like I'm being pulled in two directions....

You're all going to tell me to tell Dad I'm not coming because I have plans for wifes birthday aren't you?

I will, at least.

Your dad's "control" is only as good as you allow it to be.

You don't need us to tell you that.

My husband is in your situation. I'm NC with his parents. He's in MUCH lower contact than previously, and I have to fight off resentment every time he spends ANY time with them. Every other Sunday afternoon would be unthinkable to me. Forget about my birthday. He tries to make necessary calls etc. when he is en route from work so it doesn't encroach at all on our time. And I still don't like that he calls them. Not directly relevant because you and your wife will do what works for you, but from someone in somewhat your wife's position, the more you can distance yourself from toxic dad the better for your marriage imho.

You're still feeling responsible for your father's feelings, aren't you? Weighing the probable consequences of disappointing Dad vs. wife. Which is least bad? Your dad will always be disappointed about something. You know you can't win there. You have the option to put that energy into positive relationships, into something GOOD.

 :yeahthat:

Yes I will tell you to spend the day with your wife and children. Why? Because you want to! It's her birthday. Do you really want to give attention to your ungrateful, miserable, demanding father and not give attention to the woman you love on her birthday?
Why does your father's happiness always come first?  Surprise, it doesn't and you get to choose where you spend your time. Your happiness is just as important as his. Your wife's happiness is too, and that of your kids. Your father is not the king and it is not and never was your job to make him happy even if he thinks it is.
Spend the day with your wife! You won't regret that decision.

I'm thinking the problem is that there are no choices that you won't have to "pay" for. You'd like a choice where everybody is happy but it doesn't exist. If you see your father, you'll pay. If you don't, you'll pay.

The goal, I think, is to come further Out of the FOG so that your father's behavior doesn't really cost you anything anymore. Right now, he really pisses you off. He says these things that really get under your skin because you are still taking him seriously.

I'm in the same boat, only with my H instead of my dad. There are things that he said that used to drive me crazy but I can't take it seriously anymore. He's crazy and he has an agenda. I care about what other people think but I can't care what a crazy person thinks I should think, feel, say, or do.

So now a lot of stuff, I sincerely feel like "whatever."  WHATEVER. It doesn't mean anything. A crazy man wants something from me, big deal, whatever. I don't even hear it really. Like a small child saying "I hate you" when you won't give them ice cream, it's more "lol" than "omg." WHATEVER.

Your father WILL say all kinds of blather. He is a crazy, selfish man. (Sorry, no offense.) i've had bag ladies yell terrible things at me before in NYC. I can't take that seriously. WHATEVER.

But your father can only make you pay if you're still in the FOG. You are still bothered because of your sense of obligation to him. But he spent up all your goodwill and wasted it. You are fast running out of craps to give. Funny, he doesn't want to waste his MONEY but he'll throw his relationship with you straight down the loo. How much can you care about somebody who has so little regard for you?

All he can do is say BLABLABLA in your ear. WHATEVER. He'll try to get you. WHATEVER. A crazy man who will use you up without a thought. His words don't mean a thing except to wind you up. You don't owe him any more. You're a good son, you get his groceries, you call, you visit. A lot of elders WISH they had that. He used you up like a tissue and complained he didn't get enough out of you.

It's nothing but the blatherings of a crazy man who is trying to use you up.

WHATEVER.

Don't go to your dad's Sunday. Make a fuss of your wife.
Dad will be out to steal her thunder.
See him in a couple of weeks.
Just tell him.
It'll be fine.

‘You're all going to tell me to tell Dad I'm not coming because I have plans for wifes birthday aren't you?’

Yep.

Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on January 30, 2020, 04:58:05 PM
You don't need us to tell you that.

My husband is in your situation. I'm NC with his parents. He's in MUCH lower contact than previously, and I have to fight off resentment every time he spends ANY time with them. Every other Sunday afternoon would be unthinkable to me. Forget about my birthday. He tries to make necessary calls etc. when he is en route from work so it doesn't encroach at all on our time. And I still don't like that he calls them. Not directly relevant because you and your wife will do what works for you, but from someone in somewhat your wife's position, the more you can distance yourself from toxic dad the better for your marriage imho.

You're still feeling responsible for your father's feelings, aren't you? Weighing the probable consequences of disappointing Dad vs. wife. Which is least bad? Your dad will always be disappointed about something. You know you can't win there. You have the option to put that energy into positive relationships, into something GOOD.

Thanks cordelia - its good to hear from someone from the other perspective.

Yeh I do that -call him for the car etc. We don't mention Dad much - it just winds her up. She grudgingly accepts I do go and see him but shes not happy.

I think I've decided. Not going Sunday. It won't hurt its not the end of the world if I don't go once.

Quote from: Adrianna on January 30, 2020, 07:26:37 PM
Yes I will tell you to spend the day with your wife and children. Why? Because you want to! It's her birthday. Do you really want to give attention to your ungrateful, miserable, demanding father and not give attention to the woman you love on her birthday?
Why does your father's happiness always come first?  Surprise, it doesn't and you get to choose where you spend your time. Your happiness is just as important as his. Your wife's happiness is too, and that of your kids. Your father is not the king and it is not and never was your job to make him happy even if he thinks it is.
Spend the day with your wife! You won't regret that decision.

Yeh I know... I just could do both and keep everyone happy with a bit of planning.

Now to tell him I can't come or white lie that I've got to work (on call thing)?

Quote from: NumbLotus on January 30, 2020, 08:03:28 PM
I'm thinking the problem is that there are no choices that you won't have to "pay" for. You'd like a choice where everybody is happy but it doesn't exist. If you see your father, you'll pay. If you don't, you'll pay.

The goal, I think, is to come further Out of the FOG so that your father's behavior doesn't really cost you anything anymore. Right now, he really pisses you off. He says these things that really get under your skin because you are still taking him seriously.

I'm in the same boat, only with my H instead of my dad. There are things that he said that used to drive me crazy but I can't take it seriously anymore. He's crazy and he has an agenda. I care about what other people think but I can't care what a crazy person thinks I should think, feel, say, or do.

So now a lot of stuff, I sincerely feel like "whatever."  WHATEVER. It doesn't mean anything. A crazy man wants something from me, big deal, whatever. I don't even hear it really. Like a small child saying "I hate you" when you won't give them ice cream, it's more "lol" than "omg." WHATEVER.

Your father WILL say all kinds of blather. He is a crazy, selfish man. (Sorry, no offense.) i've had bag ladies yell terrible things at me before in NYC. I can't take that seriously. WHATEVER.

But your father can only make you pay if you're still in the FOG. You are still bothered because of your sense of obligation to him. But he spent up all your goodwill and wasted it. You are fast running out of craps to give. Funny, he doesn't want to waste his MONEY but he'll throw his relationship with you straight down the loo. How much can you care about somebody who has so little regard for you?

All he can do is say BLABLABLA in your ear. WHATEVER. He'll try to get you. WHATEVER. A crazy man who will use you up without a thought. His words don't mean a thing except to wind you up. You don't owe him any more. You're a good son, you get his groceries, you call, you visit. A lot of elders WISH they had that. He used you up like a tissue and complained he didn't get enough out of you.

It's nothing but the blatherings of a crazy man who is trying to use you up.

WHATEVER.

Spot on NL. I think I'm just the sort who doesnt want to get into an argument.

Oh he is a selfish man indeed. I do think I've gone from someone who never upset him to rapidly running out of craps. BUT there are still some to get rid of.

Yes he won't spend money. He doesn't care about me but he is clinging on because in his head he needs me. Thats the issue. He thinks all the tricks he pulls is justified because he has to do this to get me to look after him. Crazy eh?

Trouble is I don't think I can just phone him and say "not coming busy, wifes birthday" just yet. At this time the best I'm going to be able to do "work got called".
I know its a bit cowardly...

Until you actually tell him you can't and don't  explain and don't jade on it you will continue to get circular arguments from him.

Speaking your truth will free up both you and your dad? Your dad may have his suspicions about work not really being the reason anyway. He may speculate on that. Who can blame him for that?
What I mean is, it's kinder to your dad too in this instance at least,  to be straight with him.

If he does believe it's work that's preventing you from coming, he will be getting the message that work is more important than your wife to you, therefore you can't think a lot of her, therefore he's fine to continue insulting her.
If you spoke your truth to your dad it's showing him that you have a strong relationship with your wife.
I think this could be the reason it's hard for your wife to discuss him, let alone talk to him.
When I boundary set my dad started being a lot more polite to me. I had been bracing myself for world war three. Instead I got more respect. No one was more surprised then me, but it really is all just bluff.

Quote from: nanotech on January 31, 2020, 05:20:49 AM
Until you actually tell him you can't and don't  explain and don't jade on it you will continue to get circular arguments from him.

Speaking your truth will free up both you and your dad? Your dad may have his suspicions about work not really being the reason anyway. He may speculate on that. Who can blame him for that?
What I mean is, it's kinder to your dad too in this instance at least,  to be straight with him.

If he does believe it's work that's preventing you from coming, he will be getting the message that work is more important than your wife to you, therefore you can't think a lot of her, therefore he's fine to continue insulting her.
If you spoke your truth to your dad it's showing him that you have a strong relationship with your wife.
I think this could be the reason it's hard for your wife to discuss him, let alone talk to him.
When I boundary set my dad started being a lot more polite to me. I had been bracing myself for world war three. Instead I got more respect. No one was more surprised then me, but it really is all just bluff.

I know Im just so bad at it.....  :stars: :stars: :stars: :stars: :stars: :stars:

Trouble is hes weird. If you give him a good excuse then he drops it. Its almost as if hes arguing with himself - "He should be visiting me" then hes ok "ITs OK he had work so thats ok". Do you know I mean? Hes ALWAYS like this.

He doesn't know I've got plans for wifes birthday yet though.

Trying to pluck up the courage not to JADE.

If saying you have to work gets you through it, fine.

It will be a level up if you can some day tell him "wife's bday, not coming" AND NOT CARE about his blatherings, but you gotta do what you can cope with.

Not going is the right choice. So if lying about work buys you relative peace to do it, fine.

I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot. 

 :yeahthat:

Your dad surely knows it's her birthday, per the whole birthday card hoover nonsense. He'll see through the work excuse, and know you're afraid to say the truth meaning he still has some control (consolation prize). Or else he'll choose to believe it and think that at least your wife isn't as important as work to you. Either way he feels empowered to keep trying to drive a wedge in your marriage, with some reason.

That's speculation of course. But the point is trying to assuage his feelings probably is short term reprieve with longer term disadvantage.

I remember the anxiety I felt when I started telling PDm the truth rather than white lies or excuses.  I feel it in the things that you write about dealing with your dad.  It isn't easy.  You've come a long way.  We all come Out of the FOG this at different rates.  And honestly, it's so much easier to see what someone should do once you are on the other side.  While we'd all like you to just tell him that you aren't going to see him because it's your wife's birthday.  We all know from experience that is what you should do. It truly is.  I want to acknowledge that it's hard.  It's very hard when you are there, living it and having to deal with the consequences. 

I'm sure WI or someone else has suggested the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend to you. They suggest it often here.  I went to counseling to deal with PDm for the first time 20 years ago when at college.  I found this site about 4 years ago.   NOTHING made it clear, like reading that book.  It's religious for sure.  I'm not so religious these days as I used to be.  But I thought if kind, religious people think these boundaries are loving, kind, and the right thing to do, they must be OK for me, too. Before that I really just thought that avoiding the drama with her, avoiding telling her the truth, biting my lip when I wanted to tell her what I thought was the way to handle it rather than snapping at her.  Before this site, I didn't set boundaries so much as get mad and yell when I had enough.  I thought that I was doing the right thing by no longer getting mad, but just doing whatever she said.  I was jumping through all of her hoops without disagreement because I thought that was what it mean to grey rock and medium chill.  No.  I needed boundaries.  You need boundaries.  Healthy, kind, appropriate boundaries. 

I'll be honest.  The consequence of setting some very basic, kind boundaries was the silent treatment from her.  Her lashing out with some pretty awful emotional abuse.  Eventually it led to no contact from me.  If you asked me a year ago if I'd be NC with my mother, I'd have laughed.  But setting kind boundaries left her so enraged and verbally abusive that I really had no choice.  You have to think about what you are afraid will happen if you set boundaries.

The lying and white lies work.  But you gain some sort of freedom when you just tell the truth and live with the consequences.  In addition to that, when you get married, your spouse and kids become your priority.  Your dad needs to see that they are your priority.  You and your wife are a team.  Right now he sees that he is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees that work is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees the team as you and him.  If your wife and family are your priority, make them your priority.  Once PDm and enD saw that DH and I were a team that couldn't be influenced by them, the criticism of DH stopped cold.  They lashed out in other ways, but it made things at home much easier.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2020, 09:18:11 AM
I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot.

This. 100%. It was my experience with my ex and while there were other issues it’s this that ultimately led me to realize I needed to leave.

Everyone walks their own path and makes their own decisions. Your focus is very much on your father and you don’t seem to want to change that. I say this based purely on what you write here. We are taught in healing relationships and ourselves to focus on what their actions are, not what they say.  For me I had to learn to focus on myself and those I cared about. People can only be pushed so far. I hope you are able to look up from what is going on with your father and brother and find some peace and happiness.

As the saying goes “nothing changes if nothing changes”. My ex was so caught up in his own stuff that he was totally shocked when I left. I’m not saying this will happen to you but I think we are of a similar age and this time is when a lot of people start asking themselves if the life they currently have is what they really want. I decided it wasn’t.

Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2020, 09:18:11 AM
I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot.

Not so much that. She is my priority and the kids. I took me to wake up a few years ago to this.

I have proved over the last year or so she is priority. But hes still my Dad - he doesnt get to dictate but I try to fit him in.

Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on January 31, 2020, 09:29:32 AM
:yeahthat:

Your dad surely knows it's her birthday, per the whole birthday card hoover nonsense. He'll see through the work excuse, and know you're afraid to say the truth meaning he still has some control (consolation prize). Or else he'll choose to believe it and think that at least your wife isn't as important as work to you. Either way he feels empowered to keep trying to drive a wedge in your marriage, with some reason.

That's speculation of course. But the point is trying to assuage his feelings probably is short term reprieve with longer term disadvantage.

Yeh I see what you mean. Yes I suppose he does know.

Pretty sure he wont think we're going out though. He doesnt think like that - "eating out - how much does that cost?"

But yes I need to tell him straight...

Quote from: GettingOOTF on January 31, 2020, 10:34:36 AM

Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2020, 09:18:11 AM
I was the wife in a situation somewhat similar to this.  I'm guessing, p123, that your wife knows what's going on and knows that you're not willing to tell your dad that she's your priority.  When that happened to me, it hurt, a lot.

This. 100%. It was my experience with my ex and while there were other issues it's this that ultimately led me to realize I needed to leave.

Everyone walks their own path and makes their own decisions. Your focus is very much on your father and you don't seem to want to change that. I say this based purely on what you write here. We are taught in healing relationships and ourselves to focus on what their actions are, not what they say.  For me I had to learn to focus on myself and those I cared about. People can only be pushed so far. I hope you are able to look up from what is going on with your father and brother and find some peace and happiness.

As the saying goes "nothing changes if nothing changes". My ex was so caught up in his own stuff that he was totally shocked when I left. I'm not saying this will happen to you but I think we are of a similar age and this time is when a lot of people start asking themselves if the life they currently have is what they really want. I decided it wasn't.

Sorry I disagree totally.... Why do you think my wife and kids are not my priority now?

A few years ago yes I was going down that path.  I will agree - he said jump I said how high.

It got to a head. I had to change or lose them. It has changed. I've done loads to prove to my family that they are the priority and they are. Like you say eventually it all built up and I could see his actions.

Did I want it to change? It had to. Was he still my Dad and did I want to see him upset? Of course hes still my Dad and I don't want to see him upset.
Its not as easy as taking one huge step, having a huge argument and never speaking to him again. Not for me anyway.

There have been MASSIVE changes. Am I still focused on him? Unfortunately, I have to deal with his antics even more than ever because I'm not just giving in anymore.  Believe me I'd love to have a normal relationship with my Dad where I'm not stressing out and posting on this forum. Ok thats my fault for stressing so much...

Hes still fighting and its an ongoing thing I'll be honest. Yes I have more work to do - I should tell him straight maybe. Will that work? I know him probably not. At the moment, telling him the odd white lie works. He backs down.

Quote from: Sidney37 on January 31, 2020, 09:41:32 AM
I remember the anxiety I felt when I started telling PDm the truth rather than white lies or excuses.  I feel it in the things that you write about dealing with your dad.  It isn't easy.  You've come a long way.  We all come Out of the FOG this at different rates.  And honestly, it's so much easier to see what someone should do once you are on the other side.  While we'd all like you to just tell him that you aren't going to see him because it's your wife's birthday.  We all know from experience that is what you should do. It truly is.  I want to acknowledge that it's hard.  It's very hard when you are there, living it and having to deal with the consequences. 

I'm sure WI or someone else has suggested the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend to you. They suggest it often here.  I went to counseling to deal with PDm for the first time 20 years ago when at college.  I found this site about 4 years ago.   NOTHING made it clear, like reading that book.  It's religious for sure.  I'm not so religious these days as I used to be.  But I thought if kind, religious people think these boundaries are loving, kind, and the right thing to do, they must be OK for me, too. Before that I really just thought that avoiding the drama with her, avoiding telling her the truth, biting my lip when I wanted to tell her what I thought was the way to handle it rather than snapping at her.  Before this site, I didn't set boundaries so much as get mad and yell when I had enough.  I thought that I was doing the right thing by no longer getting mad, but just doing whatever she said.  I was jumping through all of her hoops without disagreement because I thought that was what it mean to grey rock and medium chill.  No.  I needed boundaries.  You need boundaries.  Healthy, kind, appropriate boundaries. 

I'll be honest.  The consequence of setting some very basic, kind boundaries was the silent treatment from her.  Her lashing out with some pretty awful emotional abuse.  Eventually it led to no contact from me.  If you asked me a year ago if I'd be NC with my mother, I'd have laughed.  But setting kind boundaries left her so enraged and verbally abusive that I really had no choice.  You have to think about what you are afraid will happen if you set boundaries.

The lying and white lies work.  But you gain some sort of freedom when you just tell the truth and live with the consequences.  In addition to that, when you get married, your spouse and kids become your priority.  Your dad needs to see that they are your priority.  You and your wife are a team.  Right now he sees that he is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees that work is more important to you than your wife and family.  He sees the team as you and him.  If your wife and family are your priority, make them your priority.  Once PDm and enD saw that DH and I were a team that couldn't be influenced by them, the criticism of DH stopped cold.  They lashed out in other ways, but it made things at home much easier.

Thank Sydney - yes got that book.

It is hard. Its got to a point now where I've got most of the control back. No longer do I run when he wants. I do a lot of ignoring him now - he can spout off how "hes been so ill", how "hes not seen anyone for days" and "hes got no food in the house". I know its all complete rubbish.

He still a complete nightmare - wants to know what I've been doing etc. Now I just say "oh stuff with my daughter" no details. Busy in work? "Always"
He says stupid things he gets a snappy answer back - then he drops it.

I know 100% his attitude to my family is "well they have to understand I need your help". Trouble is he needs about 5% of the help he thinks he needs. I am willing to help - in the past, I've sorted out home disabled stuff for him - I can do that. Taken him away for weekends. Hes never going to change.

So I tell him white lies or ignore him now. It works. Every week "are you visiting sunday?". "I'll let you know" then I'll ring him sunday evening- too late then. He'll ask  busy. Job done.

I've mentioned before he sort of seems to have a discussion with himself. Its weird. He'll start off a bit off. Then I'll tell him and it'll be "Ah thats ok then". As if hes now given himself permission to let me off the hook.

I know him. If I said "sorry Dad not coming sunday, I'm off out with the family, because they come first" it would start WW3. It'd have weeks of phone calls, "Woe is me" and probably at least one doctor call out and maybe a hospital admission. Instead if I call him sunday and say works come up sorry he'll moan but accept it.

BTW the work thing. I'm not a sad workaholic sometimes I have no choice.  I'm an IT consultant - I get paid for being "on call". I've never liked it but its part of the job. I've been doing off and on for 30 odd years so wife is well used to it.  She knows the score and accepts it. Of course, when I've got something on thats important I dont do "On call". I'm not REALLY on call this weekend either but he doesn't know that! Its a handy excuse.

Well, if he does have a personality disorder, and thereby is mentally ill, nothing you tell him is likely to change him. Truth or lie. He lives in his own version of reality and it probably doesn't so much as intersect with actual reality. Matter of fact, his version of reality is probably that he will do everything in his power to drive you away from your wife and children so you can take care of him. Because he's the only one that matters...in his mind anyway.

You can't change him, in all likelihood. He'll keep doing the same nonsense, saying the same nonsense, trying to tell you how to live your life (regardless of whether you listen or not honestly) because he knows that he knows best.  :unsure:

Eta I posted as you did

Quote from: Andeza on January 31, 2020, 11:52:35 AM
Well, if he does have a personality disorder, and thereby is mentally ill, nothing you tell him is likely to change him. Truth or lie. He lives in his own version of reality and it probably doesn't so much as intersect with actual reality. Matter of fact, his version of reality is probably that he will do everything in his power to drive you away from your wife and children so you can take care of him. Because he's the only one that matters...in his mind anyway.

You can't change him, in all likelihood. He'll keep doing the same nonsense, saying the same nonsense, trying to tell you how to live your life (regardless of whether you listen or not honestly) because he knows that he knows best.  :unsure:

Eta I posted as you did

Definitely some sort of mental illness there. Its all based around him getting anxious over pretty much everything. All the time. Everything. And being scared that hes not going to be able to cope. In reality, hes fine and I've never let him down so its unfounded. Trouble is, in his head, there is no such thing as mental illness.

He sees himself as helpless, old man who just wants a little help with things he can't do from his 2 sons. The reality is he doesn't want to make any effort at all, when he can do 99% of things, but then likes people running around after him because he feels wanted.

Took me a while to realise and its got worse....

With him it all seems to revolve around him and his thinking that he needs me to visit him because he needs help. He doesn't. Hes proved many, many times that he will go to great lengths to try and get things to work as he wants.

I think he knows that others matter but his idea (and hes said this) is that "everyone needs to understand I need your help". Hes proven many times that my problems and inconsequential compared to his.

Same with his beliefs etc. Hes right and everyone else is wrong. I should believe the same as him. Hes proved many times that his views are not only very strange but he thinks that as my Dad, he has a right to tell me what to do.

I'm sorry you're in this situation, p123.  And I apologize for suggesting that your wife and kids aren't your highest priority.  I will believe you when you say that they are your highest priority. 

But if you lie to your dad about your reason for not seeing him on your wife's birthday, I think that your wife might interpret that as your dad and his feelings being a higher priority for you than she is.

Hmm, poison ivy makes a valid point. That's exactly how I would feel in this situation, were I your wife.

It isn't just validation that she's your priority, it's standing up for her too when he criticises her. He literally tells you to put her in her place.
In my view and it's only my view, ( but I can see consensus on here) the devaluing and discarding of your wife that he does, that needs more than grey rock.
It's up to you if you do it.
Put a boundary up, I mean.
Tell your dad it isn't acceptable to talk about your wife like he does, and to show respect. Doesn't matter what he thinks of her, she's your wife.
Give him a consequence if he doesn't change his behaviour. Cancel a visit or a phone call.
They are like children. Narcissists are about 6 years old in terms of emotional intelligence.

Your dad will moan and rant and kick against it- but he can only control you by frequent phone calls and hospital visits if you LET him.
You WILL let him control you, if you respond to all of that. THIS is actually the time to go quiet. This  is when you can ignore, or at the very most, grey -rock his antics.
( ignoring most of it would be best, especially at first).
Woman interrupted gives lots of practical methods for dealing with that possibility. 👍🏼

Quote from: Poison Ivy on January 31, 2020, 12:16:57 PM
I'm sorry you're in this situation, p123.  And I apologize for suggesting that your wife and kids aren't your highest priority.  I will believe you when you say that they are your highest priority. 

But if you lie to your dad about your reason for not seeing him on your wife's birthday, I think that your wife might interpret that as your dad and his feelings being a higher priority for you than she is.

I see what you mean..... In a way I agree but sometimes with family a white lie is best. BUT I understand...
Fortunately, wife is pretty good and understands and has no problem with this.

Quote from: nanotech on January 31, 2020, 06:53:29 PM
It isn't just validation that she's your priority, it's standing up for her too when he criticises her. He literally tells you to put her in her place.
In my view and it's only my view, ( but I can see consensus on here) the devaluing and discarding of your wife that he does, that needs more than grey rock.
It's up to you if you do it.
Put a boundary up, I mean.
Tell your dad it isn't acceptable to talk about your wife like he does, and to show respect. Doesn't matter what he thinks of her, she's your wife.
Give him a consequence if he doesn't change his behaviour. Cancel a visit or a phone call.
They are like children. Narcissists are about 6 years old in terms of emotional intelligence.

Your dad will moan and rant and kick against it- but he can only control you by frequent phone calls and hospital visits if you LET him.
You WILL let him control you, if you respond to all of that. THIS is actually the time to go quiet. This  is when you can ignore, or at the very most, grey -rock his antics.
( ignoring most of it would be best, especially at first).
Woman interrupted gives lots of practical methods for dealing with that possibility. 👍🏼

Yeh. Hes clever though its all just little things without (most of the time) being specific. Theres an undercurrent if you know what I mean. He has said "you need to have a word with her" but hes never been as blunt as to say "shes this and shes that". Hes clever in this way.

Dad is mostly VERY VERY clever. Its all small stuff. He NEVER escalates it to an argument. I know a lot of people get this with narcs. Dads does not do this. Hes never put the down, raised his voice etc etc. He plays the small little digs game.

Hes also very good an sensing when hes gone too far and will VERY quickly backtrack. If he does get caught out (a few times) he plays "oh Im so sorry, I didn't realise" and "I've been so worried all weekend that I've upset you".

But is never easy, is it?

Of course, one problem is if I bail hes going to say "but I haven;t got any food, if you'd told me I could have made arrangements". Of course, he does have food and he deliberately keeps his food levels low so he can use this excuse. But you see what I mean? Thing is he ASSUMED I was visiting - all I'd said was I'd let him know. He won't have heard this,

And it will lead onto "well can you pop up after work some time this week?". I can't this week. Childcare is hell this week. Also, even if wife is home it means I get home when my youngest has gone to bed. Not fair but he doesn't care.

Also, I bet I get the "Oh well keep in touch". I've always found it weird when he says that - what a strange thing to say, Im not emigrating I'm just not seeing you for a few more days. Thats a passive aggressive dig isn't it?

Of course, if I say to Dad I can't come because we're going out for wifes birthday - he knows going out for lunch doesn't take all day. First thing he'll ask is "so what time are you going for lunch?".
Then it'll be "so what are you doing after that? Can't you pop in on the way home?".

He knows pretty much where I'll be out. In Cardiff. He knows his house is sort of one the way home for us. He knows the shops close at 4pm so I could go shopping for him. You see what I mean?
He'd even pull the "ok no problem if the shops are closed but it'd nice if you ALL popped in". (Control here - hes forcing my wife to go and see him)

Its difficult for me to say "Going out" and "Doing other stuff".... I know should just day "out with wife and kids, no I can't go to the shops or pop in afterwards and no I'm not popping in later".
Yep JADE has got me at the moment - thats my problem.

You just say you've no time, which you haven't. Not fair on your wife anyway. He needs to utilise his freezer, for when life happens and plans don't work out. 

Passive aggressive digs- my FOO oozes them.  Yes it's cleverer, because often if you challenge they will deny they meant anything untoward, then call you over sensitive.
Best either to state your truth on them as in,
' I'm confused dad, that sounded like a dig, couldn't be could it?' or else completely ignore them.
Mirroring them works too.
I said Nsis's patronising phrases back to her, calling her the same condescending names  she was calling me( her with feigned and sickly sincerity). That stopped her. She couldn't call me out on anything, because she'd done it.
I don't like behaving like this, but I've had to learn how.
dad said,

' I haven't seen those children in ages' (trying to invite himself to my daughter's home).

Instead of feeling guilty and hurriedly putting pressure on daughter to invite her granddad,
I just shrugged and said, ' yep, you must miss them.'
Followed by, ' You can always invite them to your bungalow.'
He never does. Never invites my kids, just GC and GC of Nsis.
Also, he doesn't miss them, and we both know it.
The visit related to him wanting to have a nice drive out of his town,

' ..then you ( me) could come too ( 30 mile round trip) and take me out for a meal in town, then granddaughter won't have to prepare any food.'

No, so you won't have to be around your great grandchildren all afternoon.  Because children irritate you dad. Even your own great grandchildren.

- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

Quote from: NumbLotus on February 01, 2020, 01:19:21 PM
- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

Well said numblotus. 
'Keep in touch' is suggesting that he feels you are moving away from him and he wants to communicate that in a passive aggressive way. :blink:
Laughter is a good answer to it because it implies he's overreacting and being histrionic. You are nowhere near losing touch with him.
It's usually said when people are leaving somewhere permanently, or going away for a good few months. You are right, he is really really good at this! But you're getting better and better every day. It's a game of chess really.

Well, I half did it .

So I called him, he answered the phone in normal voice UNTIL I told him I wasn't coming. Told him I was going out for lunch with wife but I did have work to do later so couldn't come sorry.

His response was pretty bad. "Oh no oh no, oh dear oh dear, oh no oh no" - honestly dramatic was not the word. It was as if someone had died not that I'd see him in a few days.
Then I got croaky waif voice (all of a sudden too!) how he was so ill, his legs were so bad. What does he want me to do about it?
Honestly, if was so bad you could have made a comedy sketch about it.

I just said "oh well, got to go speak to you in a day or two". He did manage to get in there "You'll HAVE to come monday after work". No can do. (Im not lying here either I've got my daughter to pick up.

Do you know what though it was laughable? Dont want to be mean to him but I''m glad I did it.

Wife was semi-happy - she still said, as you all did, I should have just said "wifes birthday end of".

Fully expect full tilt waifing when I do call him. Probably get a few "disappointeds", and deffo a few "no food in the house what am I going to do". Couldnt give a F any more to be honest....
He would give zero F about it being my wifes birthday today.

Quote from: nanotech on February 01, 2020, 01:02:55 PM
You just say you've no time, which you haven't. Not fair on your wife anyway. He needs to utilise his freezer, for when life happens and plans don't work out. 

Passive aggressive digs- my FOO oozes them.  Yes it's cleverer, because often if you challenge they will deny they meant anything untoward, then call you over sensitive.
Best either to state your truth on them as in,
' I'm confused dad, that sounded like a dig, couldn't be could it?' or else completely ignore them.
Mirroring them works too.
I said Nsis's patronising phrases back to her, calling her the same condescending names  she was calling me( her with feigned and sickly sincerity). That stopped her. She couldn't call me out on anything, because she'd done it.
I don't like behaving like this, but I've had to learn how.
dad said,

' I haven't seen those children in ages' (trying to invite himself to my daughter's home).

Instead of feeling guilty and hurriedly putting pressure on daughter to invite her granddad,
I just shrugged and said, ' yep, you must miss them.'
Followed by, ' You can always invite them to your bungalow.'
He never does. Never invites my kids, just GC and GC of Nsis.
Also, he doesn't miss them, and we both know it.
The visit related to him wanting to have a nice drive out of his town,

' ..then you ( me) could come too ( 30 mile round trip) and take me out for a meal in town, then granddaughter won't have to prepare any food.'

No, so you won't have to be around your great grandchildren all afternoon.  Because children irritate you dad. Even your own great grandchildren.

Yep hes got a chest freezer which I bought. He deliberately keeps it stocked very low - so hes got power. In all honesty, if I filled it he has meals on wheels too he could last for months. Hes tried that too "but it won't keep will it?" are you kidding me its frozen!!!!

Of course he comes up with all sorts of excuses why I can;t do home delivery "not paying for it" (yeh £2 I easily drive 50 miles on £2 worht of fuel after all), "dont want strangers knocking my door" (hope you tell the postman the same) "I dont want to spend that much in one go" (theres a minimum of £40 - back to the stick it in the freezer argument)

Quote from: NumbLotus on February 01, 2020, 01:19:21 PM
- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

ha ha spot on.

Quote from: nanotech on February 01, 2020, 05:16:16 PM

Quote from: NumbLotus on February 01, 2020, 01:19:21 PM
- Can't you just pop by after?
It's not going to work.
- Well, what time are you going to lunch?
Doesn't matter, it's not going to work.
- I didn't know it was a big secret.
I didn't know this was an interrogation.
- Well, I'm low on food.
I'll arrange delivery.
- But I don't like that store / don't want to answer the door / whatever ridiculous thing.
Okay, Sounds like you're sorted then.
- But I need fooooooooood.
(Shrug) I can get delivery.
- Blah blah blah
It's not going to work. Look, I gotta go.


- She needs to _____
You need to mind your own business.


- Keep in touch.
(Laughter)

Well said numblotus. 
'Keep in touch' is suggesting that he feels you are moving away from him and he wants to communicate that in a passive aggressive way. :blink:
Laughter is a good answer to it because it implies he's overreacting and being histrionic. You are nowhere near losing touch with him.
It's usually said when people are leaving somewhere permanently, or going away for a good few months. You are right, he is really really good at this! But you're getting better and better every day. It's a game of chess really.

ha ha see my other post about it being a game of chess. It REALLY winds me up when he says "keep in touch" its so so passive aggresive. Glad you all agree.

He'll often ask what my wife is going and I used to say "Oh shes umpiring netball today" (which she does). He'd sigh, shake his head, and say "there we got then". As if how dare she being something different and not coming to see him....

Of course when he said "Its OK I know its not your fault" my head nearly exploded. As if to say "I know you're wife is a right witch but I won't blame you".

I've been reading about sociopaths, not suggesting your dad is one, but one of their traits is having a 'Target of Blame'.
They also have no empathy. It's quite close to narcissism, except sociopaths try to engineer things to their advantage, and they don't worry about fighting dirty-the end always justifies the means. ( Machiavellian! )
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?

My dad and UNPDGC Bro and UnPDsis do this. They bring in the concept of fault in then don't point the finger directly. They prefer to discard our loved one and in turn that criticises us, the scapegoated child.

In your case, you chose to marry your wife,so while he doesn't appear to blame you for getting involved with her ( red- blooded male and all that) he DOES blame you for holding onto her and, heaven forfend, actually valuing and respecting her, and of course, putting her first.
I'm guessing he's never done this in his relationships with women.
PDs lack empathy, and he can't understand why you haven't already strayed or lost interest in your marriage and why you haven't  followed the pattern of divorce he
(lovingly)set for you!
After all, if you do  better at your relationships, the PD in your life will take that as a personal insult!

Good for you, p123!  And happy birthday to your wife.

Hi p123,

I think you did great!  Maybe you're not exactly to the point of not JADEing, but you're coming pretty close.  You are not giving him lengthy explanations about why you can't come, just short excuses-- your wife's b-day, you are working, you're "busy", etc.  Then, you effectively shut him down with "I'll talk to you later." 

That's a milestone, IMHO!  You are starting to see how he manipulates you with his waify, Victim Act, and you are not falling for it!  Bully for you!!

Keep up the good work, mate.  You are making great strides here!   :yes:

Quote from: p123 on February 02, 2020, 01:19:16 PM
Well, I half did it .

So I called him, he answered the phone in normal voice UNTIL I told him I wasn't coming. Told him I was going out for lunch with wife but I did have work to do later so couldn't come sorry.

His response was pretty bad. "Oh no oh no, oh dear oh dear, oh no oh no" - honestly dramatic was not the word. It was as if someone had died not that I'd see him in a few days.
Then I got croaky waif voice (all of a sudden too!) how he was so ill, his legs were so bad. What does he want me to do about it?
Honestly, if was so bad you could have made a comedy sketch about it.

I just said "oh well, got to go speak to you in a day or two". He did manage to get in there "You'll HAVE to come monday after work". No can do. (Im not lying here either I've got my daughter to pick up.

Do you know what though it was laughable? Dont want to be mean to him but I''m glad I did it.

Wife was semi-happy - she still said, as you all did, I should have just said "wifes birthday end of".

Fully expect full tilt waifing when I do call him. Probably get a few "disappointeds", and deffo a few "no food in the house what am I going to do". Couldnt give a F any more to be honest....
He would give zero F about it being my wifes birthday today.

Great effort, p123!! 
(And I'm so glad you could see the comedy sketch potential)
Well done! :)

Phoned him today. Expecting more of the same BUT hes so clever!

After yesterdays "scene" hes done a 180 degree about face. He was pleasant on the phone and said "oh its ok, I knew it was your wifes birthday so its only fair". What? This is not what you said yesterday????

He even admitted my brother is visiting today. What? Why the food emergency then?
He hasn't dropped it completely. I even had "oh you do so much for me, if you can pop up one evening I'd be so grateful". What?

Honestly, its just so manipulative. Hes done this MANY times. His first approach fails and he loses so he tries another approach.... Of course, if he acted like this all the time  but I know it wont last.

No apology mind-  thats been swept under the carpet now. And he didnt even mention how ill he was yesterday!!!!

Quote from: illogical on February 02, 2020, 07:29:57 PM
Hi p123,

I think you did great!  Maybe you're not exactly to the point of not JADEing, but you're coming pretty close.  You are not giving him lengthy explanations about why you can't come, just short excuses-- your wife's b-day, you are working, you're "busy", etc.  Then, you effectively shut him down with "I'll talk to you later." 

That's a milestone, IMHO!  You are starting to see how he manipulates you with his waify, Victim Act, and you are not falling for it!  Bully for you!!

Keep up the good work, mate.  You are making great strides here!   :yes:

That was a mega waif. Went from normal voice to croaky "I've been so ill" in seconds. It was so funny.

Quote from: nanotech on February 02, 2020, 02:03:40 PM
I've been reading about sociopaths, not suggesting your dad is one, but one of their traits is having a 'Target of Blame'.
They also have no empathy. It's quite close to narcissism, except sociopaths try to engineer things to their advantage, and they don't worry about fighting dirty-the end always justifies the means. ( Machiavellian! )
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?

My dad and UNPDGC Bro and UnPDsis do this. They bring in the concept of fault in then don't point the finger directly. They prefer to discard our loved one and in turn that criticises us, the scapegoated child.

In your case, you chose to marry your wife,so while he doesn't appear to blame you for getting involved with her ( red- blooded male and all that) he DOES blame you for holding onto her and, heaven forfend, actually valuing and respecting her, and of course, putting her first.
I'm guessing he's never done this in his relationships with women.
PDs lack empathy, and he can't understand why you haven't already strayed or lost interest in your marriage and why you haven't  followed the pattern of divorce he
(lovingly)set for you!
After all, if you do  better at your relationships, the PD in your life will take that as a personal insult!

Ha ha he probably is a sociopath. He doesnt give a monkeys about everyone else.

Hes weird with my family. It always seems to be a case of "yes you  have family and I guess you have to put up with them" but what about me? His attitude to wives is well weird - he often tells me how you're best "not telling women anything". Just Wow. For birthdays it'd be like yes buy her something, take her out so shes happy then...

He does like to think that "yes I've got to deal with my family" but him and me have this special relationship and thats the most important.

You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do. You need to make that up and after awhile I just started taking that time back from him.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 03, 2020, 06:38:49 AM
You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do. You need to make that up and after awhile I just started taking that time back from him.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Ha ha I expect I've got that all to come. His health is OK at the moment, but when hes been ill in the past, hes been 10x worse than normal. Its not going to be good.

I'm sure he thinks I go to work, go home and laze around. This week I've got 1 parents evening, 1 meeting in the school, 1 netball game with daughter, 1 ballet lesson, 1 swimming lesson and wife is working 4 out of 5 days. Oh and I've got fit in 37 hours at work plus "On call" for 2 of those nights.  Yet he thinks I can "pop in after work and get some groceries for him". 30 mins in store, 45 mins drive to his house, 45-60 mins there while he talks rubbish, 30 mins home. Oh look its 8pm I've been in work all week, I've not eaten and my daugher is in bed and I've not even seen her. Thanks Dad.

Oh and the lies I get from him. He forgets what hes said. He knows he won't let me do home delivery but its still urgent he gets food, he forgets he told me hes got £1000 stashed in the house, but its urgent I got to cash machine for him. Hes not seen a "soul" for days but forgets he told me brother was there yesterday. Its just crazy.

His health is really winding me up. Yes hes got arthritis and dodgy knees - but not so bad for his age. DO NOT call me and moan about it when you take HALF the dose that the GP has told you to take of painkillers because you're friend told you you'll get addicted to them. Also, remember I am neither a doctor, a magician, or a faith healer so I can't help you. So NO telling me how bad you're knees have been wont make me visit either!

Its been made clearer on this painkiller issue when I had back problems a few months. I was at the GP getting stronger and stronger painkillers. I was clock watching until I could take the next dose. I was in agony. So when Dad takes 1/2 dose I know it aint that bad.

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 03, 2020, 06:38:49 AM
You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Yes, he chooses to say no to a wide wide range of other options.
He's so like my dad who since I've put boundaries down, mostly tries the softly softly tack these days too. I don't get drawn in.
They try to wrongfoot you and so pull at your heart strings and get you to comply. It's gaslighting and it's to get you to see them as a victim.
You've done so well. What I realised with my dad was that nothing I did was going to be good enough
and I was still going to be criticised. That moment was a Wizard of Oz/Labrynth moment.
He had no power over me except the power I was giving him by trying to seek approval.
from him.
I saw I was also trying to look good to the whole family. I just stopped worrying about that and then began living my life. I'm lowish contact but I am a caring daughter, I just don't get walked over any more by any of them.
They hate it but because our family dysfunction is steeped in passive aggressive control. All the siblings struggle to talk to me directly about anything.
Older sister tried to tell me ( on messenger -which to me is a cop out) that I 'never come and see dad.'
I sensed her narc rage and just calmly told her that wasn't her business how often I saw dad. She then agreed with me! ( victim mode creeping  in when the attempted shaming fails).
I absolutely don't care what she says behind my back. I sold my reputation but gained my authentic life. They didn't. They pretend it's all hunky dory in the dark depths of that cult that is my family of origin.
It's funny that we would joke that we were just like THE Addams Family and we would sing and click fingers!  Talk about trauma  bonding.
I'm no longer on social media with any of them. I have my cousins on there.
They don't like it but won't talk about it, which is fine by me.
No more passive aggressive spats  at 12.30 at night often followed by a discard ( defriending for a period of time - then a massive apology ( Nsis) or a begrudged grunt ( Nbro) but always after I've made the first contact, then repeating the same- you-know -what, I really cant believe I'm  free of if now. 

Quote from: nanotech on February 03, 2020, 08:33:17 AM

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 03, 2020, 06:38:49 AM
You took one big step in the right direction.  And it felt really good.   You also got to see how much of an act it is.  He went from fine to dying in a matter of seconds.  My father would say 'he needs to see me....one...last...time".  For F's sake I just saw him two days ago.  On a rare occasion I would humor him and stop by after work.  Only to get there and find he forgot he was in such dire straits.  If he really pissed me off I would count that little drop in as my next scheduled visit which he would not like.  It never occurs to them that if you are with them you aren't able to do what you had planned to do.

Next time he tells you he doesn't know what he is going to do because you can't be there....remind him that he has plenty of options that he refuses for a variety of reasons.  None that are really valid. So now he has to suffer the consequences of HIS IN-ACTIONS.

Yes, he chooses to say no to a wide wide range of other options.
He's so like my dad who since I've put boundaries down, mostly tries the softly softly tack these days too. I don't get drawn in.
They try to wrongfoot you and so pull at your heart strings and get you to comply. It's gaslighting and it's to get you to see them as a victim.
You've done so well. What I realised with my dad was that nothing I did was going to be good enough
and I was still going to be criticised. That moment was a Wizard of Oz/Labrynth moment.
He had no power over me except the power I was giving him by trying to seek approval.
from him.
I saw I was also trying to look good to the whole family. I just stopped worrying about that and then began living my life. I'm lowish contact but I am a caring daughter, I just don't get walked over any more by any of them.
They hate it but because our family dysfunction is steeped in passive aggressive control. All the siblings struggle to talk to me directly about anything.
Older sister tried to tell me ( on messenger -which to me is a cop out) that I 'never come and see dad.'
I sensed her narc rage and just calmly told her that wasn't her business how often I saw dad. She then agreed with me! ( victim mode creeping  in when the attempted shaming fails).
I absolutely don't care what she says behind my back. I sold my reputation but gained my authentic life. They didn't. They pretend it's all hunky dory in the dark depths of that cult that is my family of origin.
It's funny that we would joke that we were just like THE Addams Family and we would sing and click fingers!  Talk about trauma  bonding.
I'm no longer on social media with any of them. I have my cousins on there.
They don't like it but won't talk about it, which is fine by me.
No more passive aggressive spats  at 12.30 at night often followed by a discard ( defriending for a period of time - then a massive apology ( Nsis) or a begrudged grunt ( Nbro) but always after I've made the first contact, then repeating the same- you-know -what, I really cant believe I'm  free of if now.

Yes know what you mean.Its always his way or no way.

I had that too with brother now. NC now. I'd post pics of my kids doing something on fbook and he'd comment "if you've got time for that then why don't you visit Dad?". I'd take a pic of airport on way home from holiday and he'd comment "you've been home since saturday you just told dad it was today" (I hadnt he'd got it wrong). The glastonbury incident was the best "Phone Dad urgently". "Why whats up? not got good signal". "Just phone him". "Why? tell me" "Just phone him". Then message to my wife "You two are so selfish you wont spend 5 mins checking our Dad is ok".

If I never speak to brother again I'll be happy. Of course Dad thinks the 3 of us have got a "special bond" (he was a single parent). Not any more I think hes not worth bothering with at all.

Do you love when people think it is their right to schedule/dictate how your time is spent.  Next time he sees you at a ballet recital and says if you have time for ballet you have time for dad....reply "No, I don't. I was at the ballet recital which means I don't have time to visit day because I WAS HERE.  For me to be with Dad I would have to give up being here. And I WANT to be here".  He can infer anything he wants from that.

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 04, 2020, 06:39:22 AM
Do you love when people think it is their right to schedule/dictate how your time is spent.  Next time he sees you at a ballet recital and says if you have time for ballet you have time for dad....reply "No, I don't. I was at the ballet recital which means I don't have time to visit day because I WAS HERE.  For me to be with Dad I would have to give up being here. And I WANT to be here".  He can infer anything he wants from that.

Of course, part of the problem is that brother has no kids he sees (can't be bothered they're with the mother). Whereas my kids, I'm pleased to take them and allow them to do whatever activities they want.

In the past, Dad hasn't got in his head why I won't cancel something my daughters doing to fit him in. No Dad. His argument used to be "well she can go next week". I did refuse this - after 4-5 year olds don't really understand why they can't go to the party or their gymnastics class.
One xmas he was in hospital xmas day and he wanted me there by 9am. No chance - I want to spend time with my kids I'll be over in the afternoon. (it was 45 mins drive so I wasnt keen). He went nuts "there'll be other xmases for your kids, they'll have to put with it, I want you here 9am no excuses". I turned up 2pm and he was off on one. I threatened to turn around and go home unless he changed the subject. Luckiyl for him he did!

Brother was the same last time we talked. "You and your wife will have to visit Dad on Saturday mornings now". yes he'd decided. Me "No can do, wife works a lot of Saturdays and its not her problem. Also, daughter does things Sat am so its a no". "Well, you'll have to cancel it". Me -"Nope". Like I said we're NC now after a few similar conversations like this.

Got to admit I can't really remember but I can imagine Dad NOT putting the kids first when I was younger to be honest!

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 04, 2020, 06:39:22 AM
Do you love when people think it is their right to schedule/dictate how your time is spent.  Next time he sees you at a ballet recital and says if you have time for ballet you have time for dad....reply "No, I don't. I was at the ballet recital which means I don't have time to visit day because I WAS HERE.  For me to be with Dad I would have to give up being here. And I WANT to be here".  He can infer anything he wants from that.

Absolutely.
We don't have to sacrifice our every spare moment to serve them.  We are entitled to our own  family time, hobbies and leisure time. Xxxxxxxxx

Doing well. This week has been mega busy..... I'm always busy but this week I'm even struggling to put the hours in with work because of commitments (i.e. childcare pick up daughter 430pm etc).

Dad as ever is being Dad. Phoned him last night -"oh so you're on you're way up and doing my shopping?" No dad. Then I get the "But I've got no food!". I spoke to him sunday and he admitted my brother visited him monday.  Yet wednesday hes telling me hes got no food - seriously?

I did well "Nope Dad I'm busy all week I'll see you at the weekend but be aware I'm  On CAll again!". I must have heard the phrase "HOPE you can make it" and "Don't know what I'll do otherwise" literally 10 times... It just annoys me so much that its this "come hell or high water" attitude again!

He's trying to trigger those guilt buttons - the ones he set up years ago.
I've been reading up on PD strategies, and it's false guilt. That's why it feels bad, but weird.
He can ring Sainsbury's anytime ( other supermarkets are available!).

We have an elderly couple living next door to us. They both have health issues. They do an online shop every week.We see the van arrive.
In this way they stay independent.
They are a lovely, lovely couple. They have a son who lives quite far away, and visits now and again.
Their day -to -day living,  they sort themselves. They've both been in hospital, and when one is, the other copes well. We usually only find out after the event. They are brilliant, they crack jokes about their health and other things they find funny, they enjoy their life, despite their problems, and they let nothing get them down.
If they ever needed help, we'd be glad to. We would know also, that they will not ask unless they really need it.
So far, they haven't!

Your dad has a lot of 'won't' not ' can't'  about him. He has lots of other choices open to him.

You're being a good son and a good dad.
You've pointed out to us, and your dad, how your dad has options.
Just believe it yourself.

Quote from: nanotech on February 06, 2020, 07:29:53 AM
He's trying to trigger those guilt buttons - the ones he set up years ago.
I've been reading up on PD strategies, and it's false guilt. That's why it feels bad, but weird.
He can ring Sainsbury's anytime ( other supermarkets are available!).

We have an elderly couple living next door to us. They both have health issues. They do an online shop every week.We see the van arrive.
In this way they stay independent.
They are a lovely, lovely couple. They have a son who lives quite far away, and visits now and again.
Their day -to -day living,  they sort themselves. They've both been in hospital, and when one is, the other copes well. We usually only find out after the event. They are brilliant, they crack jokes about their health and other things they find funny, they enjoy their life, despite their problems, and they let nothing get them down.
If they ever needed help, we'd be glad to. We would know also, that they will not ask unless they really need it.
So far, they haven't!

Your dad has a lot of 'won't' not ' can't'  about him. He has lots of other choices open to him.

You're being a good son and a good dad.
You've pointed out to us, and your dad, how your dad has options.
Just believe it yourself.

Oh he tries so hard to trigger that guilt.... I mean who uses the would "HOPE you visit". I find it all a bit silly to be honest. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter if I visit or not.

Its not as if hes got no-one and never goes out. Hes been out playing Bowls this week with his friends!

Wish my Dad was more like that old couple. Even 10%. Unfortunately, he got to an age and thought "I'm not doing it" and that was it. It'd say 90% of the stuff he goes on about is what he wants not needs.

It took years but I'm getting there. My wife is a bit of a stroppy lady lol. But shes been fair with my Dad and she does give me grief if I worry about this too much lol.

I think your wife maybe feels frustrated with the situation?
It's the way your dad sees her as competition, that can't be easy.
But it's difficult for you both.
It's hard trying to explain the dysfunction to anyone who hasn't been though that kind of upbringing.

Quote from: nanotech on February 06, 2020, 02:29:42 PM
I think your wife maybe feels frustrated with the situation?
It's the way your dad sees her as competition, that can't be easy.
But it's difficult for you both.
It's hard trying to explain the dysfunction to anyone who hasn't been though that kind of upbringing.

Oh yes my wife can't stand him. I can't blame her at all.....

As far as shes concerned, like the way hes playing it AGAIN this weekend. Trying to guilt me to make me go with the "I HOPE" thing - she says if hes not going to behave properly then dont visit at all ever.

I think the thing that winds her up most is the way he has ZERO interest in the kids. He might mention them out of duty but thats it. If I take my daughter there he will literally say hello then ignore her.

She'll sit with headphones on her tab and he'll want my complete attetion for 30-45 mins while I got through all his post etc.
Hes actually got a list written down of stuff he needs me to discuss etc.

So, my kids are just a distraction from me giving him my full attention. But thats Dad. Instead of enjoying his old age hes just totally absorbed in making sure he gets what he wants.