Narc Traits in Myself

[No.]

I'm not opposed to self-reflection and trying to change things I see flawed in myself. I've always been told this alone makes me not a Narcissist. I DO have empathy, sometimes to a fault. I DO self-reflect. But, some of the youtube I've been listening to describing narc behaviors, mostly in life patterns in general, I bear a striking resemblance to. I understand that we are all on spectrums of things. I know I'm on the spectrum of narcissism, but not malignant. But, I have the sort of injuries from childhood that have kept me frozen in my tracks, while living vicariously through others, in hindsight. Some would say that was needing supply, unable to make things happen for myself. That seems to be a pretty high N trait, and I'm mortified in hindsight I've done this a lot.

For instance, a big one for me is, I wanted to learn and play instruments as a young child and into my teens. My EnD was a professional musician. However, Nm, not only didn't allow it, she ripped me to shreds if I ever mentioned it. She REALLY had something against me playing music, that was well-accepted. It seemed to truly HURT her. I would fiddle on the piano after school, but as soon as she got home, I left it. EnD didn't play with me-that was HIS thing. I was just a kid. So, I naturally went on to other more "reasonable" things. BUT, I always loved music and became a "fan". I would go out to hear music all the time as a teen, young adult and into early 40's. While others were there for fun, I was listening, critiquing the sound, enjoying a well-played part, listening and internalizing every word of the lyrics, mystified at how these musicians had the confidence to get up there and express themselves that way. All that time, it truly could have been me in some regard.  Does that through make me narcissistic? Some of the videos would have me think that. But, if I had been nurtured or even slightly encouraged, I would have gone down that road, of being a musician. I didn't see what I was doing-living vicariously I guess. Rather than doing it or myself. The thought of this now is almost unbearable.

The same happens with art and having relationships. Anything that requires expressing myself is almost unbearable. Maybe I do wear a mask. I don't know. I had big hopes and dreams, would start things, but then had a frozen visceral response and just could not follow through or stick with things. At all. I don't know what this falls under, but it feels like symptoms of C-PTSD can be one in the same with Narcissism and co-dependency a lot of the time.

[NumbLotus]

I was reading along your post, reading your example. I was feeling terrible for your child self, it's painful to hear of a passion of yours that should have been recognized and nurtured to be cruelly ignored and outright squashed instead.

You had set up the post about narcissistically living vicariously through others, so I prepared to read, perhaps, that you raised a child and forced them to learn an instrument well beyond their interest, rode them, shamed them, took credit for their successes, and so on.

So it was much to my surprise that I find you felt your sheer enjoyment of the musical performances given by others was somehow wrong.

When you enjoy a performance, freely given by another, this is the opposite of narcissism. Someone performs to say "hear this please, enjoy this please." And you say "yes, thank you, I hear you and enjoy this." And the performer feels good, and you feel good. Now you are both increased.

Is it possible that your parents have installed shame in you connected to music, by shaming your interests and talents in that area, and that is why you feel "wrong" for enjoying it?

[No.]

Hi, Lotus,

Thank you for reframing my thoughts..it helped to hear that. I don't know. I guess I was hearing some videos that emphasized how N's are like they are because they couldn't be successful themselves. I think the difference is, I would never want to take away someone's dream. I wouldn't get with a musician, and then criticize them and try to make them change (that's what Nm did to my dad). But I DO somewhat get with people I admire, because I want to be like them. Then, I can't live up to being worthy of them, and get dumped. I feel like I have to chase them, or change for them (an N trait), and then they "see" I'm not worthy. It's really messed up, and none of it even true. But that's been a long pattern I now realize. I've attracted N's, but on the other hand, I've been with people who admired me, who I've somewhat discarded, because I didn't know how to simply be human and have a normal conversation about feelings. I guess there's more than one pattern, but the music one is the one that really gets to me the most.

[NumbLotus]

Wishing you had been able to engage in music doesn't make you N. Some Ns deal with that wound in an N way, but HAVING the wound doesn't make you N.

If I'm hearing you right, you do feel like you want something from musicians (or other people) - perhaps to have an identity. You feel inadequte and you engage in behaviors you don't feel are healthy, like changing yourself to try to please them, or chasing them.

These are codependent behaviors, not N.

The thing that jumps out at me from your posts on this thread and recent others, and this is just my opinion as an Internet stranger, nothing more, is that you are trying to figure out an identity. Who are you? What are your interests? Talents? Values? What makes you unique?

You DO have an identity, and it is unique and special. But maybe your M's voice keeps popping up and saying "No." No, you can't do that. No, you can't have that. No, you can't say that. No, that's not important. No, you aren't anybody.

How your M treated you as a child was a major assault on your identity. She treated you like a non person.

No wonder you are feeling confused and anxious. You aren't sure where you begin and where the rest of the world ends.

You may have tried to borrow the identities of other people but not in an N way. You may have discarded people who did not fulfill your identity needs, and that can mimic N behavior, but your empathy is all over the board, as is your anxiety about doing the right thing.

[NumbLotus]

I had another thought. You may have discarded one or more persons. I don't know.

But some of your labels of your behavior have not, imho, matched up with your descriptions. So there is a possibility that you have not, in fact, discarded anyone.

You may have ended a relationship for reasons like, the person's interests and values did not align with yours, or the person did not respect your boundaries.

Ending a relationship is not automatically a discard. Healthy people end relationships too, and it's not always even a big deal - sometimes you just don't enjoy another person's company.

So maybe you discarded - and maybe you didn't. You do have a right to end relationships, and it doesn't even have to be for Big Reasons like abuse.

[Sweetbriar]

I read your post with great interest because wondering about my own failings has led me more than once to be concerned that I have N traits, and considering I was raised in a family where 3 people seem to have them to a more or lessor degree, why wouldn't I also be afflicted? It concerned me so much last week that I talked to my husband about it.

In the end, I realize that I was raised by some really bad parents so I can't be even close to perfect. I have a temper. I criticize my husband at times and catch myself doing it. I also have had years and years of difficulty with commitment to things that I love. I also went out a lot in my late teens and twenties and gazed longingly at musicians and wished I had the commitment and confidence to stand up and to what they were doing. And I never did. (Makes me sad.)

But I, like you, have great empathy. I feel great feelings for others. I do not try to manipulate people. I do not seed supply or pity. I just sort of keep to myself. I am quite scared of the outside world. I feel like I started out depleted and I don't know how to explain that.

When I read about C-PTSD I knew that my symptoms were more reflected in that than anything else I had ever read about. I wonder if that is what your symptoms are as well? Not NPD. And remember, everybody has to have a healthy amount of narcissism.

What I am doing lately is meditating on self-compassion. I am working with myself like I am re-parenting myself. Today I did not want to go to the language class I signed up for and instead of hiding away, or berating myself, I used my good parent voice and said things like: Why don't you try? It's only one hour. And I got to class and I felt great during and afterwards.

I just suffer from a terrible self-image due to the crazy upbringing i had. Sometimes I get very very grief ridden that a lot of things I have wanted for myself have not happened, that I've been sort of opting out of my passions. That makes me really sad. But what can you do? You have to work with the now. I am going to continue being gentle with myself and following what I'm passionate about.

I hope you do as well.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It helped me to sort out some of my own concerns and feelings.

[athene1399]

I don't think what you described makes you a narcissist, No.. IMO (and I could be wrong) a narcissist would want to get up on that stage and show the musicians how to do it properly. Critiquing alone isn't narcissistic.  It sounds to me like you appreciate the music and you enjoy analyzing it. Part of that can be "I would have liked it better if they did x, but I also really enjoyed a, b, ad c".

Also, some narcissism is healthy to have. We need a healthy balance. Without any narcissism, we would be nothing more than an unhealthy echo (Dr. Craig Malkin wrote a book on this: Rethinking Narcissism).

I understand why you would be afraid to notice some narcissistic traits in yourself. I often wonder about my own narcissistic levels. I think when we grow up around others with unhealthy behaviors, we often fear we will turn into them or are just as unhealthy are they are/were.

[No.]

Thank you al for your thoughtful responses. I wasn't expecting validation that I'm NOT a narcissist! You all seeing that really gives me a lift. There are other behaviors I feel are in the N category, but it's a lot to go into. I just feel right now that I have not made anything close of myself what I would have liked or am capable of. I feel like it's 100% my fault that I have not come close to reaching my potential, but I also feel robbed of the ability to do so.

Ending a relationship is not automatically a discard. Healthy people end relationships too, and it's not always even a big deal - sometimes you just don't enjoy another person's company.

So maybe you discarded - and maybe you didn't. You do have a right to end relationships, and it doesn't even have to be for Big Reasons like abuse.

I've sort of just in recent years grasped this concept. Although I still really struggle with the discomfort ending a relationship brings. So sometimes I just freak out and leave. I don't have too many relationships int he first place, but recently this happened with a "friend" who became really toxic.

When I read about C-PTSD I knew that my symptoms were more reflected in that than anything else I had ever read about. I wonder if that is what your symptoms are as well? Not NPD. And remember, everybody has to have a healthy amount of narcissism.

What I am doing lately is meditating on self-compassion. I am working with myself like I am re-parenting myself. Today I did not want to go to the language class I signed up for and instead of hiding away, or berating myself, I used my good parent voice and said things like: Why don't you try? It's only one hour. And I got to class and I felt great during and afterwards.

I just suffer from a terrible self-image due to the crazy upbringing i had. Sometimes I get very very grief ridden that a lot of things I have wanted for myself have not happened, that I've been sort of opting out of my passions. That makes me really sad. But what can you do? You have to work with the now. I am going to continue being gentle with myself and following what I'm passionate about.

I definitely resonate with C-PTSD- everything about it applies to me. But, sometimes it seems the symptoms overlap, and that's when I start feeling N.  I really like what you said here about self-compassion. I've improved a lot in this area. I used to be so so hard on myself. And maybe that's what I've been doing a bit. It makes perfect sense why i do what I do now. I'm just disappointed I wasn't able to "overcome" and do my thing anyway. I'm having a hard time changing right now, and really DO want to change it up and do life differently moving forward.

I don't think what you described makes you a narcissist, No.. IMO (and I could be wrong) a narcissist would want to get up on that stage and show the musicians how to do it properly. Critiquing alone isn't narcissistic.  It sounds to me like you appreciate the music and you enjoy analyzing it. Part of that can be "I would have liked it better if they did x, but I also really enjoyed a, b, ad c".

Also, some narcissism is healthy to have. We need a healthy balance. Without any narcissism, we would be nothing more than an unhealthy echo (Dr. Craig Malkin wrote a book on this: Rethinking Narcissism).

I understand why you would be afraid to notice some narcissistic traits in yourself. I often wonder about my own narcissistic levels. I think when we grow up around others with unhealthy behaviors, we often fear we will turn into them or are just as unhealthy are they are/were.

I feel like with my level of geeking out on the music, I could have at least become a producer! I don't think that in itself is "N", but in some of the videos it talks about how N's live vicariously though others because they couldn't do it for themselves. I think this whole concept of not making happen what I wanted is a trigger for me. It really stems back to being sabotaged at an early age to not be allowed to pursue things I wanted, or even dress how I wanted. I was heavily criticized and kept from things, and I'm going through a resentment phase about that. And noticing how my patterns relate. Instead of geeking out on others' music, why didn't I turn that energy inward? I can already say, I nowhere near had the confidence for that, but I did have the ability in there somewhere.

I'm definitely terrified that I've already turned out like them, without even knowing it, but with a slightly different manifestation. I tried hard to be better, but here I am, older, haven't done what I wanted, alone. blah blah. I still feel grateful about a lot of things, and I do think I can self-reflect and change. I envy those who have a kind significant other to talk to and gain compassion and support from. I'm kind of all in my head all the time, and that's not good.   

[Fortuna]

Appreciating music and thinking you might have been good at it if you'd had the chance is not narcissism. (If you later berate a actual producer about his choices or grumble to all your friends that your parents killed your dream, that would more fit with it.)

If you are concerned you might have undesirable fleas (those behaviors we get from dealing with Narcissists, either mimicking their behavior because it's what was modeled or the behaviors that helped us survive being raised by them), I would suggest finding a good therapist to help with behavior modification and to do a reality check as to what your behavior is. Expressing yourself is hard after a childhood of being unseen, unheard and even actively shamed for having a voice. A therapist can help with that.

If you find you are loving music, that is part of who you are, so embrace it. Find a person/place to have lessons and finally learn something, take a class on music appreciation or even just download an app that lets you mix musicand play around. Explore that side of you your parents denied, nurture your inner child and let them play and explore and dance. 

[Hazy111]

You maybe, you maybe not. Like you said its a spectrum and like Sam Vaknin said "A self aware narcissist is still a narcissist. "

Many visit this site to complain of the narcissists in their lives.......like narcissists do about the people in their lives

[Sweetbriar]

I think it's really important to look at the traits of NPD - and ask ourselves do we fit them? Do we want to exploit others for personal gain? Do we demean others overtly or covertly? Do we lack empathy for others? Are we petty and jealous? Do we sabotage people? Do we need constant attention and if we don't get it, do we fall into a black hole? Of course there is the point about fantasies of success, power and attractiveness. Do we disregard others feelings? Do we plow thru boundaries if someone sets one for us?

I can discount all of them but I did have a dream to be a creative person. And I still do. Much of that I feel grief around because I have lacked so much self-confidence and successful social skills and I have had body pain for years due to the trauma I experienced as a child and teenager growing up in my FOO. My parents pretty much ignored me and never reflected anything that might be a gift in me that I should pursue. The biggest idea they had for me was to be an office worker and I'm way too much of day dreamer to do that well. They had no idea who I was.

I think children (and all people) need to have some kind person reflect to them what they see that gives the person a clue about what their purpose here is on earth. It wasn't until I was in my 40's and took a class that the teacher stopped to tell me, she thought I was gifted. I couldn't believe it, after having a high school experience of barely passing anything. (Neither of my parents once sat down with me and helped me with my homework while growing up. My mother was always too busy whining and fighting with my sister and my dad worked all the time.)

When you're not encouraged, when someone doesn't see what's special in you, it's so hard to know, and especially hard if you come from trauma, because you're just trying to get through your days and dealing with triggers and flashbacks.

I am writing this to you No. and to myself as a caring gesture to remind ourselves, we didn't have all the ingredients that other lucky people have while growing up, the loving attention of an engaged parent or parents. We just didn't have it and it means we lost out.

It makes me sad. And I'm going to allow myself to grieve that. Because it's true. These things are real losses that must be acknowledged and that is where the self-compassion is so helpful.

Like I said before, I reassure myself by trying to practice with what I have now. There is hope while we are still breathing. Hey! Some folks don't find what they love until later in life. I am not giving up on that. It makes life more exciting.

And I intuitively know that I have to rid myself of my toxic FOO so that I can begin focussing on MY healing and MY passions, not their disorder.

So this is why I am here. Because that is quite hard for me still.

[Nominuke]

I think it would be amazing that after being a part of a disfunction family for so long that we hadn't picked up any number of fleas.

With me it wasn't until after I had come Out of the FOG that I started seeing them.

One behaviour I struggled with was treating others in an unfair way because I felt like I was the only one contributing to things.

This was classic Ndad behaviour when he wanted to justify whatever abuse he had just committed.

I have also caught myself triangulating people in the past.

When I had just come Out of the FOG I was talking to my sibling about how Ndad would have to respect boundaries now with me and my FOC.

Cue sibling enabling Ndad by saying they would sometimes get angry and say the "wrong things" to their own child especially when they were "manipulating" him, so I should cut Ndad some slack.

The child was 3 years old at the time.

When I questioned this still in the fog sibling thought this was perfectly natural. For me the pattern was clear.

I think the big difference is that true NPD sufferers and their fogged up minions would rather die insisting up is down than to admit they might not be correct about a family issue.

So I guess the point is if you can recognise that things are bad and hurt other people, and if you can consider if something is wrong and try and change, then you are probably a lot more well balanced than you give yourself credit for.

[Happypants]

I cant help but wonder if wishing it was you up on stage in front of an audience is more about a need for acceptance, validation and celebration of who you are, especially when doing something you love, something that's yours, gives you purpose and identity.  Basically, what you should have got as a child, the encouragement to be you.

I also wonder if it's also about being surrounded by others who understand why you love music, who get it, rather than making you feel that it's (playing music) not yours to have. 

[1footouttadefog]

It sounds to me like you have a natural passion for music and the pds  in your life stole your opportunities to express it.

Start now.  Buy a guitar or ukulele and learn to play via tabs. Super easy. Or take lessons for your favorite instrument and join a local community symphony or play at camp meetings etc.

I bought a couole guitars and ukes a couple years back. My kids and I are learning all sorts of incredible music. I bought chord Melody music and it is easy enough to learn a some a month by memory.  In the future I will have a collection of songs I know just for fun.

I don't think having a peaked interest in something is narcissistic.

If you ha e doubts about having is traits I recommend the 100 traits list in the tool box.  I printed it out years back and honestly marked those things I did and whether or not on a regular basis or occasionally and if they were in response to others negative behavior or not. 

This was helpful in adjusting myself for the better and also in making boundaries and changing some relationships that were negative for me.

[No.]

I really appreciate what each of you said, and that you took the time to respond. 

I think, listening to a lot of different youtubes, that each thing I hear needs some discernment. With the music, I do actually take classes and play an instrument, but it's not like my own creation or play freely. I have a lot of anxiety related to this class, and lots of triggers. But I'm doing it! Taking the class, I feel like, THIS is what I COULD have been doing..like the others in the class that are more professional or willing to try to play solos. There are much newer people there who feel free to try and make mistakes, and when my time comes up to volunteer, I have to worst visceral reaction to pretty much any other topic related to C-PTSD in my life. And it's supposed to be fun!

I think it's really important to look at the traits of NPD - and ask ourselves do we fit them? Do we want to exploit others for personal gain? Do we demean others overtly or covertly? Do we lack empathy for others? Are we petty and jealous? Do we sabotage people? Do we need constant attention and if we don't get it, do we fall into a black hole? Of course there is the point about fantasies of success, power and attractiveness. Do we disregard others feelings? Do we plow thru boundaries if someone sets one for us?


When you're not encouraged, when someone doesn't see what's special in you, it's so hard to know, and especially hard if you come from trauma, because you're just trying to get through your days and dealing with triggers and flashbacks.

Thanks, Sweetbriar. When you put it that way, I know I can discount those behaviors and traits. I do things like not allow people to be nice to me. When someone is so open and nice, it's hard for me to accept. In my music class, I see people being encouraged and supported by parents, at all ages. I see people free to "mess up." It triggers memories of being belittled, berated, scowled at, eyes rolled at, and flat out denied interests in certain things deemed "bad" by Nm. And even ignored by my professional musician dad. The only acknowledgement was one time I said I wanted to learn keyboards, and he said he was going to buy his keyboard player's keyboards for me "maybe for my birthday." But it never happened, and when I asked about them later, he just blew it off like "oh, yeah, he sold those." Like he'd never said anything.

This was only one of many many topics of betrayal that play into my C-PTSD.

I think it would be amazing that after being a part of a disfunction family for so long that we hadn't picked up any number of fleas.

So I guess the point is if you can recognise that things are bad and hurt other people, and if you can consider if something is wrong and try and change, then you are probably a lot more well balanced than you give yourself credit for.

Thank you, Nom. I'm sorry you had to go through this stuff too. I appreciate the encouragement. I think I'm becoming easier on myself now. Realizing I'm strong.

[Sweetbriar]

Hi No. I am taking a class right now, a language class and oh my god, do i get triggered. I had to use every bit of my willpower to
to the last class, and that was the compassionate voice encouraging me and reminding me it was okay if I was not good at it.
That for sure, is one of my biggest feelings of grief. I totally understand what you're saying, when you see others learning things who
keep at it and don't mind not being good at something and they keep trying.

Yeah. I have a perfectionism problem and I always have and it's time I set it aside. It's taken far too many years of learning from me. I don't know if perfectionism is the result of a dysfunctional upbringing?

[moglow]

I wonder if it would help if you/we preface those thoughts with a reminder of what a personality disorder is in the first place. In this case, NPD is defined as "A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following ...[https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd]"

Do I see those in you? No, I don't - granted I don't know you personally and can only base my answer on what we see here, but still. Nothing ive seen shared here points to any of those traits to me, and further if you were Npd it's doubtful you'd question your behavior at all.

But pay attention to the "five or more of the following..." part! Any and all of us can and will exhibit any of those traits at any point in time. Personality disorders are, after all, comprised of *normal* behaviors gone awry. Given the right/wrong circumstances, who knows what's buried within us and comes out of hiding. Occasionally. Rarely. Under extreme situations.

A PD doesn't operate that way - it's pervasive and even overwhelming, taking over relationships and lives. A random trait or occurrence here or there is not and won't be a personality disorder. We always -ALWAYS- have the option to change behaviors we don't like.


Personally I think it's good that you look at yourself and your behavior, recognize that some things make you feel uncomfortable - it shows you're human and very much capable of and willing to change where needed. That's not and never will be a bad thing!

[No.]

Thanks, MoGlow! I think there are more and more videos coming out of people basically stating their personal experiences with Narcissists, and some of the traits they talk about narcissists having, well, can be things anyone does, or C-PTSD in nature, or codependent, or simply not healthy, but not necessarily narcissistic in and of themselves. it makes sense, and I think there is a lot of overlap with traits, which is why it's so hard to grasp as a narc survivor and even as therapists struggle to wrap their heads around it if they haven't experienced it for themselves.

Like you said, recognizing what we would like to change, and taking steps there, is important, and I feel fortunate I'm able to do that and think that way. I can see where my Nm has always been way too fearful to face her own feelings and behaviors. How sad she had to project it onto me and ruin our relationship. The thing she now claims she wants. I'm only now grasping the number she did on me throughout childhood and how those behaviors kept on through adulthood. One would have to have zero empathy. I know I have empathy, even for her. I have a lot of skills to work on to be better, but I'm not trying to project all of my stuff onto my child, or make anyone feel bad and getting pleasure from it.

[moglow]

You're a much better person than me. I have little empathy these days where mine is concerned. Maybe I just need more distance from it, but I truly see mother's as a lifelong series of hard remorseless choices. It's the fact that she chooses repeatedly to smack people/me down, seems to derive "joy" (if she can experience such a thing) from it. Pride can be a terrible thing, when your entire world is dependent on appearances as hers seems to be. I can't find empathy for her - but I do feel sorry for her, that she's wasted her whole life treating others so badly and laughing about it.

[No.]

Yeah, I'm 5 years NC, so I "forgive" and have empathy, but I'm not about to engage in a relationship with her so she can pull out all the strategies to control and manipulate me again. I know she is in the sad state she is in because of the way she was treated. But she also chose to take it all out on me rather than look within and change. She manages to be nice to her husband and 5 adult step-kids.