WSJ article prompts another NC disagreement

[Call Me Cordelia]

This is more of a vent, but I'm wondering if any of you have seen this article?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/how-to-heal-a-family-rift-11600185600

DH showed me this saying, "I think this really applies to our situation!"

So I read it. I thought the article really didn't apply to us, because we are dealing with abusive people. But it made it sound like that situation was actually rare ("Extreme") and definitely made the case that most estrangements ought to be reconciled. Because among other things, missing out on family support. (But if they were in fact supportive, would you be estranged? ) In short, I thought it was a steaming pile of FOG. He was disappointed. Turns out it was a lead in to telling me he is looking for a therapist with the goal of moving toward reconciliation with his family, and here I'd doubled down on my NC yet again.



Can't we just leave well enough alone? He shares he hasn't even spoken to his parents or in fact any family member in months because it's so sticky. He's called his uNgrandpa a couple of times since COVID. He moved into assisted living right before it happened and has been on lockdown ever since. This guy called me once from the nursing home and said merely, "Hi Cornelia, I'd really appreciate you returning my call." But never called DH. Poor lonely old man.

That sounds to me like ST, which historically has been a favorite tactic of uPDFIL. And has worked in DH in the past.

But I'm really hurt that I asked him to go to therapy a long time ago and he didn't want to because he didn't think he needed it. But now he says he's doing it, because a while back I told him I wouldn't even consider attempting reconciliation until he'd done some work on himself. He seemingly views it as a hoop I'm making him jump through to get what he wants. And the ST is what propelled him to action. 

He says no, he thinks things are different with his parents and we have a chance to work it out. Based on what evidence?!?!? This guy draws conclusions from evidence for a living. Even in personal decisions he makes spreadsheets of pros and cons. But now it's just he's prayed about it and this is what he thinks. This is not his usual thought process. He does normally pray, but OMG. Wishful thinking much?

Meanwhile, I'm here thinking we'd been having a really great year in our FOC, even with COVID! I told him I considered the estrangement a net positive. Strongly so. And as we often say on here, the phone works both ways. We left a door to our family open through him and they are choosing not to knock. Which he ceded. But then blamed me for not returning their overtures. (He means that time his mom flooded me with messages last year or the time his aunt demanded photos and that we fix it I guess.) I feel threatened again I just want to be done with his family. And I'm sick of coming off as the unforgiving you-know-what.

I did say some kind and empathetic stuff in there and did mean it. And I don't speak quite so bluntly as I write on here, but still direct. DH was nice to me too and we were hugging pretty much the whole time. It wasn't a nasty argument, truly a respectful discussion but I'm still so angry!

[Hepatica]

I often read the Dear Mariella advice column in The Guardian and a few times I've been left nearly gasping at her advice. (I think she's a psychologist...) Anywhoo... i would think that a person given a column in a respected newspaper/site would have more education about personality disorders but I don't think it's ever crossed her path and so she often advises people to try, even though the letter to her sounds clearly like the person is in an abusive situation and should not engage. I can't read the article you've linked but I wonder if it's the same problem, folks who have no idea what they're writing about, bc they aren't educated in PD's and they haven't experienced it personally.

I don't know your background with your husband's FOO, but it sounds like you know enough to see there's been patterns, and when there are patterns that generally a sign of walking straight back into crazy and expecting crazy to have changed. It doesn't seem to, or it pretends to for awhile. I'm sorry your husband got knocked into FOG by an article. That is so frustrating.

It seems to me there needs to be more and more and more general education in this world about Cluster B's and abuse cycles. We are just not there yet. It would save people a lot of pain, if they knew how to protect themselves, and dumb columns in newspapers really set people back when they respond to a situation that it is so so complex for individual people and families.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Thanks, Hepatica. That's why I'm glad for this forum, because I constantly feel I need y'all to tell me I'm not crazy when things like this happen. It was a pretty gaslighty thing to read. Estrangements are common and last on average four years. Ok, fine. But it's so much better when you work it out because otherwise you just have this big ball of regret all the time and it will affect future generations FOREvEr if you don't fix it, that is reconcile. Sounds like flying monkey scripts I've heard before. But when I see mainstream people write this sort of thing and I think, "Am I in fact over sensitive and unforgiving?" I have to give it the logic treatment all over again.

Mainstream society can be a bit unhealthy. But in 2020 that's not exactly news, is it? 

[Hepatica]

... and it will affect future generations FOREvEr...

Perhaps in the case of removing toxic family from our lives and our children's lives,  we will affect our future generations in a good and healthy way. A good old prune brings in more light. They (the in the FOG mainstream) don't seem to think outside of the box in my humble opinion. 

[TwentyTwenty]

I saw this article about a week ago I think, and started reading it.. a few sentences in, I left the page thinking it was a poor attempt for someone to sound like a know it all in a subject that cannot be generalized like they did.

Some shill that thinks he has an answer to reconcile a relationship without knowing the premise of the separation is just bad information.

My parents believe that I'm evil, and that God should strike me down.. .... pass the gravy. 

[illogical]

...He says no, he thinks things are different with his parents and we have a chance to work it out. Based on what evidence?!?!? This guy draws conclusions from evidence for a living. Even in personal decisions he makes spreadsheets of pros and cons. But now it’s just he’s prayed about it and this is what he thinks. This is not his usual thought process. He does normally pray, but OMG. Wishful thinking much?

I did say some kind and empathetic stuff in there and did mean it. And I don’t speak quite so bluntly as I write on here, but still direct. DH was nice to me too and we were hugging pretty much the whole time. It wasn’t a nasty argument, truly a respectful discussion but I’m still so angry!

Hi Call Me Cordelia,

I think you hit the nail on the head here with your comment regarding what has changed?

Based on what you posted, it sounds like your husband is caught up in an emotional play.  Maybe he has been having second thoughts about NC for some time and the WSJ article just "cemented" his thoughts and gave him a segue into "Look!  Here's a pro that says I should reconcile!"

You, on the other hand, can detach emotionally and see that your inlaws have not changed.  Nothing has changed.  I totally get your anger.

That said, I think your husband has to find his way on this journey and you can only carry him so far.  It's not a good situation-- because I think that, like a hawk, you have vision and can see far down the road, whereas he cannot because of his involvement on an emotional level.

I think you are limited here in your influence.  Maybe point out to him-- when he's had a few days to process-- that you have not observed any behavior that would make you think your inlaws are willing to compromise in any way.  Ask him point blank-- what has changed here? 

It's a difficult situation you are in.  Don't know what brought about this emotional response from him.  Maybe the COVID had something to do with it.  Death all around us, time to not take family for granted (as per the article), etc, etc, etc.  You of course know better than us regarding his emotions.  Perhaps you could point out that these are very difficult times, and you wish his parents would be supportive, but the likelihood of that is slim.  Try to nudge him toward a more realistic position.  Because it sounds to me like he is letting his emotions carry the day, when he needs to rely on his logic.

That's my two cents, from my illogical self.   

[Thru the Rain]

I started reading the article and got as far as "Should you always try to reconcile? Yes except in extreme cases...." and that *snap* sound you here is my laptop closing.

The author doesn't know you, your DH, his family, any history, who said/did what and when. Blanket always and never statements are "one size fits no one" and usually can be safely ignored.

I'm sorry your DH is using this article as an excuse to go back on agreements you thought were settled.

[nanotech]

... and it will affect future generations FOREvEr...

Perhaps in the case of removing toxic family from our lives and our children's lives,  we will affect our future generations in a good and healthy way. A good old prune brings in more light. They (the in the FOG mainstream) don't seem to think outside of the box in my humble opinion. 

Yes, there is much more evidence supporting
estrangement as a way of halting toxic patterns that have often been passed down over hundreds of years.

I wish I'd done it years ago. My kids would have been more healthy. They got caught in the toxic crossfire.
Interestingly, my youngest child was born after I was partly ostracised by the family.
She's the most emotionally healthy of the three.
I've tried to make it up to the older two. But they always thought I was exaggerating anyway. But then a really big crisis happened and the whole family regressed and reverted to how they were during my childhood. Then the oldest two began to see what mum was talking about.   
But my youngest noticed the dysfunction they had from an early age. I'd begun to see the light and I, being more enlightened, didn't 'program' her not to question anything.
Interesting.

[Hepatica]

nanotech, your story is such a great example.

Why should our children have to witness family dysfunction? I have a friend who felt it was her duty to keep her son involved in her grandfather's life. I met this grandfather once and this guy was a psychological abuser. He abused my friend in front of us the entire time. He abused his wife during the lunch. He was one of the most abhorrent people I've ever met. He didn't even try to hide it. I always wondered why my friend did not keep her son far away from this man, but she said she wanted him to have a relationship with her parents. Why? I looked at it so differently. I felt like it was my duty to protect my son from abusers.

I'm so glad your third child was spared this stress and for the other ones, the great thing is they see you as a person who stood up and walked away from abuse. That is also a great gift of life learning for children.

[Sidney37]

... and it will affect future generations FOREvEr...

Perhaps in the case of removing toxic family from our lives and our children's lives,  we will affect our future generations in a good and healthy way. A good old prune brings in more light. They (the in the FOG mainstream) don't seem to think outside of the box in my humble opinion. 

After 20 years of bouncing between therapists in the various places I have lived who sort of got it and didn't get it, but kept insisting that I keep trying to set boundaries and "train her" so to speak, I found a therapist who specializes in daughters of PD mothers.  She said exactly this to me in our first meeting.  I have changed the pattern.  I have shown my kids that it's ok not to be treated in such an abusive way.  Many therapists haven't dealt with this.  Would they tell a woman who had been abused by their husband to stay and work it out?  I doubt it.  Why is it OK when  a parent does it?  It isn't. 

My daughter suffered from her interactions with my PDm.  They spoke over the phone often and saw each other 2 or so week a year.  It was damaging.  It's taking over a year to even begin to unwind it.  I wish I had done it sooner. 

[nanotech]

nanotech, your story is such a great example.

Why should our children have to witness family dysfunction? I have a friend who felt it was her duty to keep her son involved in her grandfather's life. I met this grandfather once and this guy was a psychological abuser. He abused my friend in front of us the entire time. He abused his wife during the lunch. He was one of the most abhorrent people I've ever met. He didn't even try to hide it. I always wondered why my friend did not keep her son far away from this man, but she said she wanted him to have a relationship with her parents. Why? I looked at it so differently. I felt like it was my duty to protect my son from abusers.

I'm so glad your third child was spared this stress and for the other ones, the great thing is they see you as a person who stood up and walked away from abuse. That is also a great gift of life learning for children.

Thank you Hepatica, your kind words have warmed my heart! Xx

Your example of the abusive father/grandfather is proof beyond dispute that little or no contact has to be the way, if the parent or parents is/ are dysfunctional.

[Sidney37]

I just had the chance to google the author who they interviewed.  The researcher is a sociologist and gerontologist (study of elderly people).  His  PhD dissertation was on elder abuse.  He's done research about children being ambivalent toward their elderly parents.   He's written that his interest in the elderly is because his grandmother lived with him while growing up.  He's completed research and written books detailing the useful and practical advice older people can pass down to younger generations.  His focus is on the elderly so that they are not neglected or abused and not people with personality disorders or abusive elderly people.  He has no expertise in personality disorders.

Even this book and research concludes that the estrangement he is looking at is due to various things that we aren't dealing with and states clearly that in cases of abuse you should not try to reconcile.   He's talking about estrangements typically over a misunderstanding or lack of communication like over inheritances, caregiving for older parents, differences in religion, etc. not abuse that stems from a personality disorder.   He also says that reconciling can improve your own psychological well-being.   Not in cases of abuse it can't.  I can't imagine that the psychological well being of any of us will improve if we reconcile. 

I know people who ended up estranged in the 1960s and 1970's over who the college  son supported in an election.  It wasn't a case of verbal, physical or emotional abuse.  They had a difference in politics.  I know people who were estranged because one wouldn't give the other a key to their house.  I know another who was estranged because the one daughter buried the elderly mother with jewelry that was supposed to be given to another daughter.  I know another family who is estranged because the oldest brother abused the younger sister.   The first few estrangements were resolved after a number of years.  The last one wasn't and won't be.

You are right, Cordelia.   This isn't the same.   This article doesn't apply.   I hope your husband can see that.

[lotusblume]

This is more of a vent, but I'm wondering if any of you have seen this article?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/how-to-heal-a-family-rift-11600185600

DH showed me this saying, "I think this really applies to our situation!"

So I read it. I thought the article really didn't apply to us, because we are dealing with abusive people. But it made it sound like that situation was actually rare ("Extreme") and definitely made the case that most estrangements ought to be reconciled. Because among other things, missing out on family support. (But if they were in fact supportive, would you be estranged? ) In short, I thought it was a steaming pile of FOG. He was disappointed. Turns out it was a lead in to telling me he is looking for a therapist with the goal of moving toward reconciliation with his family, and here I'd doubled down on my NC yet again.



Can't we just leave well enough alone? He shares he hasn't even spoken to his parents or in fact any family member in months because it's so sticky. He's called his uNgrandpa a couple of times since COVID. He moved into assisted living right before it happened and has been on lockdown ever since. This guy called me once from the nursing home and said merely, "Hi Cornelia, I'd really appreciate you returning my call." But never called DH. Poor lonely old man.

That sounds to me like ST, which historically has been a favorite tactic of uPDFIL. And has worked in DH in the past.

But I'm really hurt that I asked him to go to therapy a long time ago and he didn't want to because he didn't think he needed it. But now he says he's doing it, because a while back I told him I wouldn't even consider attempting reconciliation until he'd done some work on himself. He seemingly views it as a hoop I'm making him jump through to get what he wants. And the ST is what propelled him to action. 

He says no, he thinks things are different with his parents and we have a chance to work it out. Based on what evidence?!?!? This guy draws conclusions from evidence for a living. Even in personal decisions he makes spreadsheets of pros and cons. But now it's just he's prayed about it and this is what he thinks. This is not his usual thought process. He does normally pray, but OMG. Wishful thinking much?

Meanwhile, I'm here thinking we'd been having a really great year in our FOC, even with COVID! I told him I considered the estrangement a net positive. Strongly so. And as we often say on here, the phone works both ways. We left a door to our family open through him and they are choosing not to knock. Which he ceded. But then blamed me for not returning their overtures. (He means that time his mom flooded me with messages last year or the time his aunt demanded photos and that we fix it I guess.) I feel threatened again I just want to be done with his family. And I'm sick of coming off as the unforgiving you-know-what.

I did say some kind and empathetic stuff in there and did mean it. And I don't speak quite so bluntly as I write on here, but still direct. DH was nice to me too and we were hugging pretty much the whole time. It wasn't a nasty argument, truly a respectful discussion but I'm still so angry!

Okay, so I have a couple of problems with this article.

One is, when the question is asked whether to reconcile or not, the answer is yes. Not "it depends on your unique situation". Red flag number one.

" Should you always try to reconcile?

Yes, except in extreme cases—if the person is dangerous or abusive. If you remain cut off, you lose the ability to learn from the relationship. You lose resources—the help and support that comes from a family. And your children and other family members may also lose family relationships that may be beneficial to them. The consequences of an estrangement are profound and extend across and down generations."

2nd is that it is clearly directed at the adult child (« and your children and other family members... ») and there are numerous examples of this. As I've read in so many other books and according to the belief system that makes sense, it is not up to the adult child to shoulder all the blame and repair the relationship with the parent. Why does this writer assume that the reader should do all the fixing?

Third, he says yes, except in cases of abuse, but the situations he used as examples describe emotional blackmail and abuse.

It sounds like another article written by someone in denial about their own FOO dysfunction and an expert in rug sweeping.


That kind of guilt inducing and victim blaming message in this article is very subtle and therefore extremely effective for vulnerable people like your husband, who still holds onto hope.

It seems to me the ongoing issue is that you see things more clearly, and he still feels foggy. He's using this article as confirmation bias that he should try again.

It's tough when you and your spouse are not on the same page/fully united in these issues. I think many people experience that, I know I did! And I was in your hubby's shoes.

Eventually the less my husband tried to do damage control and stop me from getting hurt, the more I would test the waters, and I would keep getting hurt. I felt I needed to keep trying, what I got was more evidence that they were not willing to do any kind of heavy lifting and would continue to guilt and manipulate or ignore me, whatever tactics they used to control me as a child. Very sad, but it helped me to realize more on my own, and with no more resentment towards my husband, because he did not stand in the way, so to speak.

This may or may not help your situation. I also differed where I realize that when I'm feeling foggy, my husband will give me a reality check, and I fully trust him now, whereas I used to think maybe he just didn't like them.

I hope my two cents is helpful and good luck with this!!!

[GettingOOTF]

If you remain cut off, you lose the ability to learn from the relationship. You lose resources—the help and support that comes from a family.

This made me laugh.

This article doesn’t describe my situation at all. It seems to be written by someone who has no experience of a dysfunctional family. It’s interesting that he became interested in this subject after talking to elderly people about their regrets. I strongly suspect that these were the abusers. I’m sure my father sings quite the pitiful tune about why we are estranged. Kindly old man who did his best and ended up with such a heartless daughter. If only she knew how hard he tried. Blah blah blah.

Family ties are strong. We cannot clear FOG for others. There were clearly other issues in my marriage but the biggest for me was how my BPDxH’s family treated me and how he expected me to just suck it up as “that’s how they are”.  He was never ever going to see them for who they were or acknowledge the reality of how behaved towards me. I chose to stop fighting him on it and then I chose to leave the marriage.

That WSJ article is written from the perspective of the abuser. The writer seems like one is those “all families have their issues” people.

A reconciliation, even if imperfect, is typically experienced as liberating. You end the angry rumination and persistent negative feelings about the other person.

Here’s another interesting quote. I have no angry ruminations or persistent negative feelings. I’ve worked through my situation. In fact it was my therapist who encouraged the NC. 

This article reads like those “his cheating strengthened the marriage” articles.

[Lillith65]

I bet that reconciliation is liberating ..........for the PDs because they get their target/audience/victim back 

[Psuedonym]

Confirmation bias is a huge thing that's affecting our view, particularly in the US, of 'the facts'. Basically, we believe what we want to believe, and we look for others to confirm what we already believe.

You know who reads the Wall Street Journal, or newspapers in general? A demographic that skews highly towards older people. It's not how younger generations get their news.

You know who wants to hear:" It's not your fault? It's all just nonsense...it all should be reconciled. Your children owe it to you to forgive you!' Parents who've acted abusively towards their kids. Not surprisingly, it's normally people in their 40s and 50s who finally realize what actually went on in their FOOs.

Newspapers know their audience and they write for their audiences. They're saying what their audience wants them to say, which in this case, gives them a financial incentive to act act as like FMs.

[doglady]

Yes, another vote here for the article being a 'steaming pile of FOG.' And definitely geared towards a certain demographic. (Oh, and Hepatica, don't worry: Mariella Frostrup is most definitely not a psychologist, she's a journo/talking head, and rabbits on about herself in all her 'advice' columns anyway, so not overly helpful in my opinion - actually she seems very narcissistic in my opinion)

Anyway, I get pretty annoyed when writers make these pronouncements about reconciliation being the way to go. I mean, where's the nuance in that answer? I would say, well, sure, in an ideal world where it was only a bit of a spat, no major longstanding toxicity and dysfunction AND you could basically stand to be around the person, then reconcile by all means.

BUT, in the types of family situations most of us OOTFers have experienced, ie. when there is a consistent pattern of toxicity from certain FOO members towards particular targets/scapegoats over time; and the FOO makes no effort to listen to, acknowledge the perspective of, or change their behaviours towards the scapegoat, and will not consider therapy; and the scapegoat's health is being compromised, for example, then I think it's pretty clear that reconciliation is off the table. I mean, why would you??!!!?

So yeah, Cordelia, you are right to point this out to your husband. Like a lot of people, he's looking for 'evidence' to shore up his position, I guess. But as you say, what has changed? Hopefully, one day it'll dawn on him.

[illogical]

...Anyway, I get pretty annoyed when writers make these pronouncements about reconciliation being the way to go. I mean, where's the nuance in that answer? I would say, well, sure, in an ideal world where it was only a bit of a spat, no major longstanding toxicity and dysfunction AND you could basically stand to be around the person, then reconcile by all means.

BUT, in the types of family situations most of us OOTFers have experienced, ie. when there is a consistent pattern of toxicity from certain FOO members towards particular targets/scapegoats over time; and the FOO makes no effort to listen to, acknowledge the perspective of, or change their behaviours towards the scapegoat, and will not consider therapy; and the scapegoat's health is being compromised, for example, then I think it's pretty clear that reconciliation is off the table. I mean, why would you??!!!?

Well said!!

[BettyGray]

OMG!!! The New York Times had a similar article a few weeks ago. Actually it was a book review. The article was met with opposition by many, many people in the comments section. I provided a link, but for some reason the comments section doesnt show up on the link. Only in the app version that I have on my phone.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/10/well/family/family-estrangement.html?referringSource=articleShare

Reading the comments was like being on this forum, any one of us could have written them. Of course, there were a few people who will never get it and think of estrangement as some petty argument for us to "get over." For the most part, the interview and book promo were widely condemned by the readers/commenters who are mostly victims of abuse and went NC for their own safety. Interestingly, there were a few commenters who said after reading the comments from victims of PDs that their eyes were opened to our reality and that they never knew how bad the abuse is for some of us. So I guess that was good.

But for the most part it was the same old, same old.....WE are horrible people carrying a grudge around, WE are the problem and selfish, yada yada yada. Yawn.