Why are the so unreliable!?

[Justanotherlostgirl]

I don't understand why?

Every time, every. single. time

Say they will do something, don't do it. Say they will be there, show up hours later if at all. It's so frustrating to try to make plans with a person who never follows through and who doesn't even have the common respect and decency to inform you they won't be coming.

On the flip side, with their friends and other people who aren't you, they're punctual, even to the point of getting pissed off if you're running behind?

It's just like every time he has a chance to make me wait for him, to control me, he does it. It is so inconsiderate and frustrates me to no end. How do I grey rock that? Just don't even respond? Just let him walk all over my boundaries and come flouncing in whenever it suits?

Is this common for anyone else?

[Simon]

Yes, I think it's common, and I think it's down to respect.
Or more to the point, whether you're still on the pedestal, or on your way down from it.

In my relationship with my BPD ex gf, in the honeymoon love-bombing phase at the start, she would be punctual, keep her word, make an effort as most people would, just like she would for all her friends (flying monkeys).

But as the devalue phase began to creep in, suddenly she became unreliable, and her word meant little.
Looking back, it clear to see it now, but in the relationship it wasn't so obvious.

PDs wouldn't dare to let their friends down if they can help it, because they would lose face (and attention), so always full effort for them, but they don't mind letting you down. After all, they think very little of you at this point, and are probably smearing you behind your back anyway, so not keeping their word to you and letting you down means very little to them.

In fact, I would surmise that letting you down would make a great conversation and a great way to put you down to their flying monkeys/friends.

Having said that, I would have to sit and listen to many vile and toxic comments from her about those she considered her best friends, on many, many occasions, so she doesn't really like them at all.
But she must be seen to like them.
The guy she's with now was one of those friends, and he would find it hard to stomach the things she called both him and his elderly Mother behind his back, to me in private.

I think the biggest take from this is to not to try to apply our (as in neurotypical, non-disordered) logic to their behaviour or reasoning.
Their actions are coming from a tumultuous, warped and toxic mental landscape, and our rules of behaviour don't apply to them.
After a couple of months in my relationship, I took what my ex said or planned with a large pinch of salt, because it was clear she didn't know if she was going to stick to it or not.

To sum up, if a PD in your life is letting you down all the time, it's because you're not important enough to them anymore to make the effort.
Sad but true.

[Justanotherlostgirl]

Oh I agree Simon, he has no respect for me at all, I think I'm in the final discard phase. Although he has always strangely been unreliable, even during the live bombing phase he was always late for everything.

[SonofThunder]

1. Its all about manipulation, control of relationship circles 1 and 2 (spouse, children) = feelings of power.

2. With Relationship circles 3-5 (everyone outside circles 1 and 2), its all about reputation preservation. 

Both are about "SELF".  Everything about PD's are about SELF.  Therefore JALG, its not about you and your child, as you are just target-supply of manipulation and control for #1.  Therefore, the toolbox of self protection and self preservation for you and your child, should remain the mental focus, and try and shed off what you experience from PD's.

SoT

[Justanotherlostgirl]

Thanks SoT

I am using the toolbox and I'm trying my best, but this is one of those things that I really don't know how to respond to. Of course, I would love to tell him where to shove it, but I remain unemotional and don't even acknowledge the behavior. It just hurts me that he not only discards me, but his child. As you know from my previous posts my child is really suffering. My uPDH and I are one thing, but our child is quite another. I really wish I could go up one side and down the other with him. It is just too much.

I know it is all about them, I'm under no illusion it isn't. It's not so much I find it puzzling, I just have a really hard time wrapping my head around someone being so absolutely devoid of emotions, and only caring about themselves to such an extent that they discard their child along with their wife. It's as if this can't even register in my brain.

Thanks for your knowledge and kind words as always.

[Lauren17]

I agree with the previous responses. Lack of respect coupled with desire to exert control.
MC is your best tool for this, IMO.
Don't wait for him. If he's coming to get you for an appointment at 5:45, have keys in hand and be taking yourself at 5:46.
If he promises to pick up your child from soccer, but doesn't. Next time ask a friend instead. 
For years, I would smooth over these incidents with my kids. "Daddy had a bad day at work" or "I thought I told Daddy to be there at 3;00. I must have forgotten"
I'm working to stop doing that. I say something like "I'm sad this happened. It must feel really frustrating." And then maybe we talk about what will happens d differently next time.

[Justanotherlostgirl]

I agree with the previous responses. Lack of respect coupled with desire to exert control.
MC is your best tool for this, IMO.
Don't wait for him. If he's coming to get you for an appointment at 5:45, have keys in hand and be taking yourself at 5:46.
If he promises to pick up your child from soccer, but doesn't. Next time ask a friend instead. 
For years, I would smooth over these incidents with my kids. "Daddy had a bad day at work" or "I thought I told Daddy to be there at 3;00. I must have forgotten"
I'm working to stop doing that. I say something like "I'm sad this happened. It must feel really frustrating." And then maybe we talk about what will happens d differently next time.

Thanks for your advice.

And I agree, this is 100% what I do. I've also stopped telling my child stuff like that too. It really upsets me more when he does it to our  child. 

I'm glad I'm not alone anyway. It wouldn't help if I responded to him. When I do try he doesn't even read messages or pick up the messages. He told me he was coming back yesterday at noon. It's 9am the next day. I sent him a very small text message asking if he was coming back or not. He hasn't even looked at it.

[SonofThunder]

As Lauren17 wisely said and in relation to what you last replied:   

You wrote:  " He told me he was coming back yesterday at noon. It's 9am the next day. I sent him a very small text message asking if he was coming back or not. He hasn't even looked at it.".

You have a long history of these (and many other) experiences with this man. So therefore, as Lauren17 properly stated, possibly let those statements by him go in one ear and right out the other, planning always that you are operating solo. 

Therefore ".....I sent him a very small text message asking if he was coming back or not. He hasn't even looked at it."  does not need to occur; does not need to frustrate you.  He gains supply using control/manipulation and your text also gives him the power supply feedback he needs to feel powerful.

Also like Lauren17 stated, I want to encourage you to take on a mindset of indifference regarding whether he is absent or present, and live your life now, as if you are a solo-parent; a solo-woman.  (I don't mean 'single' but solo).  Therefore, it wont matter what he says to you and you wont have any expectations either, as you plan/live only as a solo woman/mom. 

SoT

[Justanotherlostgirl]

As Lauren17 wisely said and in relation to what you last replied:   

You wrote:  " He told me he was coming back yesterday at noon. It's 9am the next day. I sent him a very small text message asking if he was coming back or not. He hasn't even looked at it.".

You have a long history of these (and many other) experiences with this man. So therefore, as Lauren17 properly stated, possibly let those statements by him go in one ear and right out the other, planning always that you are operating solo. 

Therefore ".....I sent him a very small text message asking if he was coming back or not. He hasn't even looked at it."  does not need to occur; does not need to frustrate you.  He gains supply using control/manipulation and your text also gives him the power supply feedback he needs to feel powerful.

Also like Lauren17 stated, I want to encourage you to take on a mindset of indifference regarding whether he is absent or present, and live your life now, as if you are a solo-parent; a solo-woman.  (I don't mean 'single' but solo).  Therefore, it wont matter what he says to you and you wont have any expectations either, as you plan/live only as a solo woman/mom. 

SoT

Easier said than done for me as I feel so angry for my child. I try my best not to respond. He called several time yesterday then just showed up out the blue, acting as if nothing was wrong at all. He's gone and done the same thing again today - said he will be showing up after his job finishes at 8am, and didn't show up. I haven't responded and I don't plan to, but I know he will inevitably show up again.

I find it really hard to detach myself from it because I feel a huge streak of anger for my kid, as he always makes promises not only to me, but to him. When the promises fall through my son ends up getting upset and crying because he doesn't know why his dad isn't here. I ended up just telling my child last night that if daddy makes you a promise, don't listen to it because nobody knows if he is going to follow through or not. Probably not the best approach, but I feel like I'm lacking rationality these days.

I guess I just don't know/understand how to detach myself or be unemotional about it when it comes to my child.

If you all have any advice on exactly how to do that until I get out of here, that would be great. I do have some days where I can do it, but others I feel like I emotionally do not have the strength.

[SonofThunder]

JALG, im sorry its so difficult for both you and your boy.  I wish i had some unique advice to pass along that would assist you.  I also find myself getting internally angry sometimes at what i experience from my uPDw vs brushing my experiences away.  I believe its normal behavior for us to be angry and i believe there is both incorrect anger and correct anger.

On that note, i try to allow my justified, correct anger to spur and further encourage wise decision-making, self-protective action and self improving action.   On the contrary, allowing my uPDw's situational and time manipulations to have a self-defeating affect on me, is the two-part desire the PD is truly after; inflating themselves while deflating me.  I am fully in control of my own inflation or deflation, therefore i allow the anger on occasion, channeling its energy into a good release, but also allow it to inflate me higher in my planning and determination for self-improvement.   In your case, you have TWO very good reasons to channel your periodic PD anger-energy into a positive inflation (JALG and JALG's child). 

I say 'periodic' because i believe its healthy to privately vent on occasion.  I do that a few ways; by a password-secure digital journal app, this Out of the FOG communication, prayer and by spending time outdoors in a place where i can audibly speak my frustrations out loud.  The trees, rocks, animals and other nature never seem to mind my harsh opinions toward my experiences and they are excellent listeners.  😉

I believe too much of this also is allowing my uPDw too much of my time and energy and so as Lauren17 wisely said, i make plans as if i am totally alone, and try to have a mindset of indifference vs anger. 

On that note:  i find it beneficial to remind myself that PD's are that way because of emotional and psychological under-development, which leads to self-focus and intentional manipulation to feed 'self'.   They will never develop the missing parts. Therefore, they are actually similar to many other under-developed living creatures. 

If you and your little boy are out walking in a park, and you encounter a stray dog or some other wild creature, do you assume the creature is automatically friendly or that it may bite in natural fear and therefore make decisions for you and your boy, to observe from a distance?   

Im guessing you are cautious, because you know this creature is self-need focused (safety, food, distance etc) because it is an animal.  When an animal displays its self-focused negative action/reaction, im guessing you dont get angry, knowing that you and your boy are friendly and pose no harm to the animal; you just accept it as 'nature'; underdeveloped compared to the human race.   I do the same thought process for humans that have certain disorders (Tourette's for example) and other psychological handicaps.  I understand that their mannerisms are due to some underdevelopment or deviation and i expect behaviors that align with the disorder.

I also am less cautious with a rabbit than i am with a small alligator, as i know that alligators are potentially more harmful to me than rabbits.  So therefore i must use good judgement in my decision making.  In your case, you can assume your boys father is underdeveloped, so therefore having expectations of a fully developed adult male would be unwise.  The problem is, that societies laws, allow underdeveloped, self-focused, manipulative PD adults to have the same full adult rights as non's.  Therefore we non's must be extra focused and energized to self protection for ourselves and our little ones.   

Theres a lot of nasty disguised alligators who get to mingle in society and we just need to be aware and recognize the attributes and expect alligator behaviors and therefore adjust our decisions to protect ourselves by distance.  In addition, each time an alligator acts like an alligator, we shouldn't lets its underdeveloped mind get us angry, although we sometimes wish the alligator was friendly, so we could get closer.   

I wish for you today, a day where you channel your frustration toward your good goals of a better life for you and your little boy, and stay as far away as possible from alligators, but cautiously and wisely observe. 

SoT

[Justanotherlostgirl]

Thanks SoT

I do know that he is basically incapable of empathy but he is so manipulative, I just find it hard to deal with.

Right now, I'm stuck here and I can't leave so that also weighs on me heavily. I try to take it one day at a time but I often end up using this board as a vent. And often, I feel like I use it too much.

I really don't know how you and the other posters stay in marriages with these people and I really don't understand how you all seem to be ok - as in I feel like I am always making threads and commenting here and you all seem to calmly go through your issues whilst I am wildly flailing around like "my life is horrible, I'm drowning" 🤣

I really commend you all for that I seriously don't know how you all stay so strong. I am a total mess.

I hope your situation improves, it sounds very difficult.

[Simon]

I really don't know how you and the other posters stay in marriages with these people and I really don't understand how you all seem to be ok

I really couldn't resist interjecting here.
I too wonder why/how some people here are still married to their abuser.
I'm pretty sure that the main reasons are children and meshed finances, which are understandable, as well as trauma bonds and fear of being alone.
But please don't take other people's current situations as a reason to stay in yours.

Narcissistic abuse is very damaging, both physically and mentally, whether the abused is aware of what's going on or not, and no amount tools are going to cure the abuser, or change them.
At best, people seem to distance themselves from their abusive partner by using the tools, which gives them some respite, but it's no way to live.
I suspect that most of the people still in their relationships and using these tools, are biding their time, waiting for their kids to be a certain age, or getting things ready to leave when they are ready.

If you do decide to stay in your relationship, please at least be aware of what you're signing up for.
No-one's here to judge, and you wouldn't be the first to try and see it through, because it's easier than leaving.
Just be aware of what that means.

There are people here who stayed 10,20 or 30 years with their abusive partner, finally left, and then when they leave, post on here that they wish they'd left sooner, and would do anything to get those years of their life they wasted on an empty shell of a person back.
You'll find plenty of those stories on here.
And of course, they didn't have access to the information that we do today, so they really were trapped without a clue as to what was happening.
I suspect that a lot of them would have done things differently if they'd known what was happening.

I know I sound a little blunt, but I'm afraid that's how I am when it comes to Narcs and Borderlines.
Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
Better to give them the elbow! 

I wish you luck.
I know it can't be easy for you right now.

[Poison Ivy]

I am divorced. My ex-husband was and is unreliable. It was a big reason, but not the only one, for me deciding to end the marriage.

[Lauren17]

I really don't know how you and the other posters stay in marriages with these people and I really don't understand how you all seem to be ok - as in I feel like I am always making threads and commenting here and you all seem to calmly go through your issues whilst I am wildly flailing around like "my life is horrible, I'm drowning" 🤣

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm feeling this most days as well.
Please don't be too hard on yourself. It has taken me years to see what was going on. Then more years to process and to use the tools. 
Simon makes an excellent point regarding knowledge.
I didn't have the resources about any of this for most of my marriage. No Internet articles or online forums. It was just me, stumbling along, not knowing this relationship was very unhealthy. 
I truly believe that knowledge is power and I encourage you to learn as much as you can. Learn not just about why he acts this way, but also why you respond the way you do. The second one is the harder part.

[Justanotherlostgirl]

Thanks Simon and Lauren!

I didn't have these tools until a few months ago and it has been a long 9 year slog. I at first wasn't happy, but as you said Simon, I was just thinking I can keep it together for our kid. I can't. I've been trying to leave, but I'm in my abusers country and there are international laws about bringing children overseas without the other parent/consent forms, it's a whole thing. I've now got the form and I'll be leaving next month. It seems to me though, the closer it gets the more I feel like the walls are closing in and I'm very hyper vigilant - which is why I think I'm finding it so difficult and I find it hard to not become angry and just calmly use the tools. I still do use them every time though. It doesn't seem to help much if I'm being honest. I wear old baggy clothes, respond with yes, that's fine, no to almost everything. I don't talk about our relationship issues. He is still ramping up his behavior and doing anything and everything he can to manipulate me.

Btw to all posters, I'm not trying judge any of you. You have your own way of being in your marriages and those are your choices, of course. I was more trying to get at how everyone seems so calm about it. I do not feel calm. Probably due to the hyper vigilance. I'm thousands of miles from my home, my family, and if he tries to hurt us, or do something to ruin this last minute, there isn't much I can do. I'll be stuck here for the next 14 years within a legal system that favors the father and doesn't consider this type of abuse as abuse. I know that is a lot of ifs but I do not trust this man at all.

I feel like I have a lot of black and white thinking on this and I know I need to work on myself. I'm in therapy, but even my therapist has told me it is difficult to try to work this all out when you are in the midst of this highly stressful situation.

I don't acknowledge to him what I say to you here. If he doesn't show up I say nothing, or I will send a short text message saying "I am taking child to x", but I usually don't respond at all.  I do not acknowledge he is having an affair, lying to everyone, manipulating me and his family etc. I just grey rock anytime I see him, but the anger and resentment underneath is just so intense for me. I feel like you all handle it so well.

Thanks for the luck Simon, elbow at the ready

[Justanotherlostgirl]

I am divorced. My ex-husband was and is unreliable. It was a big reason, but not the only one, for me deciding to end the marriage.

Sorry that you've dealt with it as well. Glad you've left the situation.

[Poison Ivy]

I got divorced in 2016. Although I'm mostly calm now, I wasn't a lot of the time, and there are still things that can set me off.

[SonofThunder]

I really don't know how you and the other posters stay in marriages with these people and I really don't understand how you all seem to be ok

I really couldn't resist interjecting here.
I too wonder why/how some people here are still married to their abuser.
I'm pretty sure that the main reasons are children and meshed finances, which are understandable, as well as trauma bonds and fear of being alone.
But please don't take other people's current situations as a reason to stay in yours.

Narcissistic abuse is very damaging, both physically and mentally, whether the abused is aware of what's going on or not, and no amount tools are going to cure the abuser, or change them.
At best, people seem to distance themselves from their abusive partner by using the tools, which gives them some respite, but it's no way to live.
I suspect that most of the people still in their relationships and using these tools, are biding their time, waiting for their kids to be a certain age, or getting things ready to leave when they are ready.

If you do decide to stay in your relationship, please at least be aware of what you're signing up for.
No-one's here to judge, and you wouldn't be the first to try and see it through, because it's easier than leaving.
Just be aware of what that means.

There are people here who stayed 10,20 or 30 years with their abusive partner, finally left, and then when they leave, post on here that they wish they'd left sooner, and would do anything to get those years of their life they wasted on an empty shell of a person back.
You'll find plenty of those stories on here.
And of course, they didn't have access to the information that we do today, so they really were trapped without a clue as to what was happening.
I suspect that a lot of them would have done things differently if they'd known what was happening.

I know I sound a little blunt, but I'm afraid that's how I am when it comes to Narcs and Borderlines.
Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
Better to give them the elbow! 

I wish you luck.
I know it can't be easy for you right now.

Hi Simon,

You wrote: 

At best, people seem to distance themselves from their abusive partner by using the tools, which gives them some respite, but it's no way to live.

For some of us, because of certain very complex and difficult legally married situations, such as the OP's JALG's situation in another country which honors the male, with child, legally married to an abusive man and living with his family, it (the tools) can be currently the ONLY way to live.  I understand what you meant by "no way to live" but happiness and reduced trauma in living can simply be a byproduct of the real necessity in unwinding a very complex, relationship, familial and legal web.  Imo, the understanding of personality disorders (from a textbook psychology viewpoint) only brings educated awareness that assists the non in self/child protection and short/long range planning in the very complex situation.  But, the complexities that are involved in the legally intertwined lives of many here are an entirely different animal to wrestle, compared to the focus on simply a "way to live".   

You also wrote: 

I suspect that most of the people still in their relationships and using these tools, are biding their time, waiting for their kids to be a certain age, or getting things ready to leave when they are ready. If you do decide to stay in your relationship, please at least be aware of what you're signing up for. No-one's here to judge, and you wouldn't be the first to try and see it through, because it's easier than leaving.

"Leaving" can be a very complex set of circumstances in a legal marriage, for a wide variety of reasons. Its very different imo, than departing a non-married dating relationship where finances and assets and children are not legally combined and where both adults may not be in employment situations that assure self-supportive finances, especially if it includes alimony. 

There is also (albeit not this particular board to discuss) the subject of personal beliefs, religion and covenants and then also the real laws of different lands, which imo, all can be a very serious and complex discussion regarding any decision-making of many legally-married Out of the FOG members. 

SoT

[Simon]

Hi SoT.

Yes, there are many reasons why people stay, or are forced to stay in these relationships, as I said in my post.
I'm always very careful to state that my brush with narcissistic evil was brief and easier to get out of than it is for most people.

I  could come up with 100 reasons why people don't leave these relationships, and someone could immediately come up with 100 more that I hadn't thought of.

My point was that if people are going to stay in narcissistic abusive relationship for reasons other than financial/familial/religious entanglement (etc), and do so out of Love or pity or guilt, then they should at least know what they're letting themselves in for.
Their partner will not change without many years of intense therapy (if it works at all), and that they are choosing a life of subservience, lying, cheating, smearing, toxicity, etc, and could be discarded in the end anyway.

I just think people need to make an informed choice, especially when the ante is many years of their life.
And the many boards and YouTube channels, not to mention the many discussion on Quora, mean that people can now make that informed choice.

Life is precious and brief.
If my boundaries and my knowledge had been what it should have been, I would have been out of my relationship in weeks.
As it was, I wasted 11 months of my life.
Not a lot compared to most people here, but I still find that fact hard to swallow.
If I'd wasted years on my ex, I can't imagine how resentful or angry I'd be.

It may be raw for some to discuss this sort of thing, but I think it's important.

We always go on about the PD's not having any accountability.
Well, we should also talk about our accountability.
If we stay with them and aren't aware of what it is that's going on, then we're not accountable, we're the victims.

But if we know what's going on, and we still choose to stay, then we are accountable.
There could be good reasons why someone stays, as we've both already mentioned.
But the choice is still made by the person with all the information at hand, and that's how I think it should be.

While my opinion might be "Get out now!", It's not my place to say stay or go.
But in a forum such as this, I think it's healthy to ask people to get all the knowledge they can on the subject, and then decide their course of action.

I'd hate to think that someone stayed in an emotionally abusive relationship and got shredded both emotionally and physically over many years, just because they thought that they couldn't or shouldn't get out, or that they were to blame.

[SonofThunder]

Simon, i understand your reply and opinions and we agree on many of your points made, as education and awareness are indeed key to making wise personal choices.   But, education and awareness are just the exposed tip of the sometimes massive iceberg below the surface.  In luckier circumstances though, theres not much complexity at all and departure can be much easier.

Im glad you experienced the flip in personality traits very early in your relationship. It didnt matter how educated i could have been way back then (hindsight knows there was very little anyway regarding PD education at that time), as my uPDw was already a master at facade.  My situation took years and 2 kids in, for my uPDw to flip traits to a point where my head was spinning in confusion.  Clever, manipulative PD's have a way of locking-in their target, using deep legal and emotional ties. 

'Unreliability' through situational and time manipulation is surely difficult to deal with and a clever (many times covert) manipulation that is tricky to predict, but surely can be planned for, as Lauren17 pointed out. 

Unreliability interwoven into the highly complex situations of some very PD educated and aware people here on Out of the FOG is just another facet of the massive complexity.  JALG made the initial comment regarding others who seem calm about living a life with a PD with the toolbox in full gear and JALG is fully aware of what shes dealing with, but currently in a waiting period and its frustrating for her. 

Again, i fully understand your points made and enjoy the deep discussion and like you believe these deep discussions are important.  Im glad you have educated yourself on personality disorders and were able to quickly depart. That experience will hopefully prove very helpful to your decision making in the future. I hope also for you, that any potential PD traits, through your experiences and education create some red flags for you to recognize, so you don't get into a more complex situation. 

SoT