decision tool

[Doggo]

Doggo, I think this latest development strengthens the case for you filing for divorce.  Do you really want to be taking care of your husband's mom and filling in the gaps for the unhelpful siblings?  I do think that you will get stuck rescuing her.

OK--I suppose this is crazy naive.    So I shouldn't beleive him, based on 19 yrs together, that he will get a job and help his mother....and not demand that I rescue her....  Like I said, crazy naive, which is likely I got stuck in the first place.

[Poison Ivy]

Doggo, I'll share a few more details of my experience, with the warning that merely because there might be similarities between my life and yours, that doesn't mean the results will be the same.  I hope they aren't. 

My ex-husband had two long periods (the first lasted almost six years) of unemployment during our marriage.  His unemployment was very stressful for me, especially because he was not looking for work for most of the time he was unemployed.  The second period began in 2009, when he was fired because of a clear violation of workplace rules. He did manage to get into the public assistance system:  we got reduced-price, state-provided health insurance; we could have received food stamps (but I declined because the thought embarrassed me); our younger child got reduced-price lunches at school; and my husband got vocational rehabilitation benefits, including free classes at a tech school.   Throughout this time, his parents' health had been declining, and as one of the two children leaving in state, he took it upon himself to regularly visit his parents and help them.  The other child in state, his sister, rarely visited or helped.

By 2011, my husband's therapist recommended that he participate in an intensive outpatient therapy program (IOP). He did so, that summer.  He LOVED the IOP.  People, especially the female staff and patients, were paying lots of attention to him. On almost the last day of the program, and very grudgingly, I attended a "family therapy" meeting.  Here's what I remember from that meeting:  1) My husband complained that I expected too much of him. We then agreed that he would have one household task, vacuuming once per week.  2) My husband and the social worker in attendance told me that my husband's plan was to become his parents' part-time, temporary caregiver, and that while he was at his parents' home, 150 miles away, he would use downtime to look for a permanent full-time job.  Here's what happened after the meeting: 1) Over the next year (from the time of the meeting), there was exactly one time that the interval between my husband's vacuuming stints was one week.  More often, he did it once per month.  2) He did become his parents' caregiver.  He did not look for a permanent, full-time job, despite telling me and the social worker that he would and despite the promise being part of his "treatment plan" for after the IOP.

My husband didn't want to look for a job.  My and our children's needs weren't sufficient motivation. His own self-worth wasn't sufficient motivation. Our marriage wasn't sufficient motivation.

I filed for divorce in 2015.  I was no longer asking my husband to look for a job.  I realized it wasn't going to happen, because of him and because of his parents' situation.  But I did have a couple requests: that he come to our family house at least once per month and that his father pay him by check for the caregiving work. Although my husband said he wanted to stay married, he didn't do the things I asked him to do to avert me filing for divorce.

[Doggo]

Thank you-- a lot of similarities. He was unemployed when we met, having closed down his law practice in another state because he said he couldn't handle the stress. I have a journal entry from 2003--3 years after he moved in--asking him to find a job and his reaction, which was a meltdown. So I put my head in the sand.

He finally got work around 2006, found on a site for polyarmorous people (he is--I decidedly am not, but I always thought it would take the pressure off of me for him to be poly--I got companionship; he got someone else to take care of him). Lost that job in 2012-2013. Got diagnosed with ADHD. Has not looked for a job since, despite my efforts to get him ADHD counseling/career counseling, etc.

Since about 2018 he has been trying for disability, so his current excuse is that is what he is waiting for. So sucker that I am, I keep being Hoovered by that--gee maybe he will get disability and we will have some extra money (the very minimum amount, given his work history) and he will get health insurance from it, saving me a bundle. Or gee, we won't get disability and he will FINALLY look for a job.   

I am having a beat myself up day. Trying to pull myself out of inertia and do something very hurtful to him and life changing for me (with the financial result of losing half my retirement savings and half the net house proceeds, according to my lawyer)--is very difficult. I keep thinking--well, should I just keep 'paying' him to be a companion and ignore everything else? Is that even possible...and there's also the possibility/likelihood that he will demand I help support his mother.

[Poison Ivy]

Part of my decision tool was to think about what I most feared might happen if I stayed married.  In my situation, my biggest fear was that my husband would break the law, incur large financial obligations, or both, and that there would be little I could do about becoming entangled because of my husband's and his father's secrecy and dishonesty.  Nothing has happened since the divorce to make me think I was wrong to be concerned about these things.  My ex and his dad continued with their secrecy and dishonesty, my ex didn't file tax returns, my ex continued taking money from his dad, his dad continued with under-the-table financial arrangements.  I'm sure there were other things, too. 

[Doggo]

Part of my decision tool was to think about what I most feared might happen if I stayed married.

Very helpful--thank you.
My fears--both ways--are money. If I stay, biggest fear is I will continue to support him for another 20 yrs, and his mother too

If I leave: that I will have a very poor old age. Am 60. So 5-10 more working years, if I can. not enough saved as it is. Losing half to him, plus alimony.

[Poison Ivy]

I understand how difficult this decision is, Doggo, particularly because of the financial considerations.  I have a good friend whose divorce was finalized last year.  She's in terrible financial condition. She hasn't worked in three years or so, and she's receiving maintenance (our state's version of alimony) but her ex doesn't make much money either.  They had owned a house, and they sold it as part of the divorce because of the ex's tax debts. Her apartment rent is more than twice as much as their mortgage payments were.  The finances are so bad that sometimes I think she would be better off still married. Unfortunately, her marriage was terrible, too.  Her ex committed emotional and financial abuse. So she was damned if she stayed married and damned if she didn't.  Some people might say, "She's poor but she has her freedom." Many days she doesn't think she ended up on the better side.

My point with all this is not to scare you but to convey that I get that sometimes all the choices can be or seem bad. 

[Doggo]

My friends and family tell me that staying is not worth the price of my mental health and happiness. And yes, there is a price to be paid for having allowed him to live like this for 19 years. But--losing half my retirement savings and no longer being young enough to have time to recover--that's a pretty steep price.

I did find this site on certified divorce financial analysts--contacted someone locally and going to see what they have to say.
https://institutedfa.com/

My other option would be to move into the separate garage size apartment that my brother has in his house. He doesn't live in my state, so I'd be starting over, but it's cheap.
My sister keeps sending me links to fabulous 55 and older communities near her...with prices way out of anything I can afford.

[Poison Ivy]

I think it's a good idea to talk to a divorce financial analyst.  I didn't. I would have received more accurate mathematical information (e.g., regarding the future value of various assets such as my ex's pension plan and the family home) than I dug up on my own.  But I prioritized an easy division of assets over an exactly equal division, so I didn't mind not have precise figures for present and future values. 

I clicked on a few links on that website's pages.  The chart for listing priorities looks really helpful.  My priorities in dividing the assets were the following: close to equal (required by state law); fair (required by state law); and putting most of the paperwork and other logistical burdens on me (desirable because my ex is very disorganized as in ADHD-disorganized and I knew the paperwork and other tasks might never get done if I was relying on him to be in charge).  Here's one example:  I suggested and my ex agreed to me getting the house and him getting his entire pension plan.  In an ideal world, I would have liked getting cash and him getting the illiquid house, especially because it's a pain to take care of the house.  But I knew he wouldn't be able to live in the house because of being his parents' caregiver, and i knew he wouldn't take the necessary steps to do a QDRO (qualified domestic relations order) for the pension. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things about the house, but it definitely has been difficult and expensive to be a single homeowner.

[Arkhangelsk]

Doggo,

It is a lot.  I wonder if you could imagine make that little garage apartment pleasurable for you.  It might be that having a soft place to land like that could let you consolidate after the divorce and plot out how to make a good life even with half your retirement accounts.  Finding a place where you can get what you most value out of your money might make a ton of sense.   

I remember this space. AND, as a bonus, my ex refused to actually take the half I agree to give him.  I had to go to court, more than once, to force him to accept 1/2 my 401k, for example. 

But I have noticed that I make better choices with how to invest now that I do not have to negotiate with a controlling PD.  I have predictability and stability with my financial choices.  I will not have to care for him in his decline.  I will not end up with him caring (not caring) for me in mine.

One other tangent is friendships.  You might want to stay in your town for the people.  I just want to toss out there that more than half of my close friendships did not survive the divorce.  I had not predicted that.   

[Spygirl]

You could still move forward with your plan. Things will constantly come up thru the process, and if you never get started,  well you never get started.

If i had not allowed all the fog to get in my way, i would have filed for divorce several years earlier.  If he can behave like an adult in that situation, he can continue. It is a choice he makes, wwarher you can accept that or not. Ultimately, what happens with his mother is his responsibility, not yours. If you stick with it, how do you know you will not be in the same  bad financial situation supporting both of them in the future?  And then there is the OTHER brother......

[Doggo]

Sorry all--for some reason, the notifications on new posts for this stopped. Meantime...I've retained a lawyer. Waiting for her to get back to me about what I have to copy/bring her--a pain, since I have to sneak paperwork and myself out of his clutches.

The garage apartment WOULD be a nice stopping place for a while. There's a fenced yard for the dogs, and my brother, sister in law, their grown kids, all constantly moving in and out--so it might be a good way to heal and not always feel alone in the world again.

Meanwhile, am taking it one day at a time--the uPDh is still busily trying to impress me with how much he has changed. I just started re-reading the 100 traits, and I see we are in the retribution phase. We have been in this place so many times before, though this time is more intense because for the first time in 19 yrs he at least took me seriously. I think I am just going to chill out on things and see how long it takes him to settle back once again into his old pattern.

As for friends--most of them are scattered around nearby states...I have one close friend here. we can always meet in the middle.

[[ If you stick with it, how do you know you will not be in the same  bad financial situation supporting both of them in the future?  And then there is the OTHER brother......]]
Yeah--that's exactly what will happen

[Medowynd]

Please don't stay because there are problems for your MIL.  She is your husband's problem.  If he is not working, husband will have to get a job to help out his mother.  If anything, I would step up the divorce filing, so as to not allow husband to add some burden that you should assume through the divorce.   

[Doggo]

Please don't stay because there are problems for your MIL.  She is your husband's problem.  If he is not working, husband will have to get a job to help out his mother.  If anything, I would step up the divorce filing, so as to not allow husband to add some burden that you should assume through the divorce.

We had a huge fight about it last month--he wanted money for his mother to be able to move to a different apt. (Ultimately she didn't move but it might be that she has to now.) I had a huge guilt trip over that.

[notrightinthehead]

guilt as in the g in FOG...

[Poison Ivy]

Doggo, how does it make you feel that your husband isn't contributing to your care and well-being but he is trying to convince you that you should contribute to his mother's care and well-being?

[Doggo]

Doggo, how does it make you feel that your husband isn't contributing to your care and well-being but he is trying to convince you that you should contribute to his mother's care and well-being?

You know, at the time (this happened last month) I was so angry he demanded money for her--we dont have a lot because it's only my income. I couldn't articulate why, but I was furious and felt guilty and obligated at the same time.
This week when his mother ran out of money I just made a sympathetic noise and walked away. I'll be damned if I wind up a caretaker for two severely mentally ill people. I may have to pay alimony but for now it's my money that I worked hard for, not his.

He is currently operating under my statement that he get a job or I am out. So suddenly he is Mr I Have Changed and Trying...but cant get a job yet because of his disability case. He attributes that change to his depression magically disappearing and a new lower dose of ADHD meds this week leading to his anxiety magically going away. The disability case is a problem for working, but I don't believe a word of the rest of it.

[Poison Ivy]

Yay for you for making the sympathetic noise and walking away!

[Arkhangelsk]

Huzzah!

Yes.  I agree with Poison Ivy.  That was a very good moment, Doggo.

[Doggo]

I am feeling kind of cold hearted.  We were in the car yesterday and he was driving when his mother called and he said, you can pick it up and talk to her. I said I didn't want to. I really don't feel like trying to/pretending to have a relationship with her when I am struggling with her son. It's not like we have kids and I'm depriving her of her grandkids. But I still felt I was being "not nice."

[Arkhangelsk]

"Nice" and all its attendant expectations of appearances kind of fall away when we are trying to save ourselves from abuse.