Is it me?

[escapingman]

Why do I still get doubts about if it's me that is the problem? I know for well it isn't but still I question myself. I have so much evidence about what she does to me, to the kids and how she can play the game. Then I slip once with my MC and I am accused of being mean and nasty and I start question myself. Every time I do something "bad" I keep analysing and question myself, feeling guilt and thinking maybe it is me after all. Why do I feel guilty when she is the bad one? She can stand there shouting and swearing at me, when I had enough and move room and close the door she comes after me telling me how nasty I am to leave her and then she plays the victim.

How do I stop this feeling of guilt before it starts?

[hhaw]

EM:

At some point in your childhood you likely internalized the message you aren't good enough.  Trying to prove one is worthy makes one a perfect target for N's abuse and manipulation, IME.  It's familiar to me. 

IME you can't BE with the stbx, sharing space, allowing stbx into your head space AND begin healing.....at least not without a good T, imo.

Cut yourself a break.  Stop judging yourself and your feelings and get curious about them.

Know you'll address the reasons why you feel fear, obligation and guilt around your relationship with stbx.  You'll do it in a safe relationship with your T.

There are reasons behind your feelings and you're going to figure them out, clarify and process your trauma eventually.

Right now just trust you can get through this divorce and find help for your children too. 

To be honest, I don't think anyone feels sane or sure or stable when a PD is constantly pressing in, pressuring, condemning and welding heinous f+ckery against children and a spouse during divorce proceedings so count yourself perfectly normal, not the guilty party.

Everyone told you separating from the stbx would improve your mental health and it will.  You're in the trenches, EM. Your children are there with you.  Hold yourself together and banish doubt.... you're the one good enough parent in this.  If you don't hold yourself together, what happens to your girls?

The secret to feeling better is to block the PD somehow....... don't let her words IN......trust she's broken and you're going to heal yourself and your children.

Be super kind to yourself, like you're a small child in need of your compassion and attention.

Drop judgment and get very curious about everything.

Do what you can, then turn toward joyful things in front of you.  Stop ruminating in the past or fearing the future.

Embrace acceptance of what you can't change.

All these things will pay off when you least expect it.  Perseverance is part of healing through those times we manage these new habits or don't.  We pick them back up with compassion for ourselves and model it for our children.

We forgive ourselves for making children with PD mates and get busy figuring out why and healing the cause....with curiosity.  Fear and guilt slow the process
Are part of the process and it's ok.

Just keep trying.  You'll feel more like yourself when the stbx doesn't have access to you all the time.

BTW you have rights and the ability to set and hold boundaries even if it doesn't feel possible..... it's a truth you'll feel in your Nervous System soon....and model for your children.

It's going to be ok, EM.

Hold...
Hold....
Hold....
Every day is one day closer to freedom and building a functional household for your daughters.

Doubt is part of the process for decent, kind, empaths who're trauma bonded to Ns, IME.

Board members weren't kidding when they told you staying in the house with the stbx would be crazy making.  Crazy making is a PD's normal.

Get out, sooner than later.  You're stronger than you think.

[escapingman]

hhaw, you are so right, I really need to get out. Until that is possible I am trying to be away as much as possible, even if that's not ideal for the kids it's better than them witnessing STBX shouting at me. STBX is pretending all is normal and when I MC and not engaging in conversation (about her stuff) she gets in a mood and start complaining about me being nasty. I am pretty used to it now so most of it is just like water off a ducks back, but it's hard to see how she even complain to the kids about my lack of engagement. I am getting stronger and I rarely fall for it, but at times I just have to bite back as it becomes so ridiculous its laughable what she is doing.  But, if she keeps behaving like she is doing now and ramp it up slightly, I might check with my solicitor if it is possible to get her removed, maybe threatening her with consequences unless she moves could work. I don't know.

[hhaw]

Document.
Ask for any relief possible from the courts and police services.

Do not protect the PD ever again in any way

Exploit every terrible thing the PD does to you and the children in exchange for any small protections you can negotiate.

This is a war of inches.  You give an inch, the PD wins a mile.

You take an inch, you keep the mile.  THIS is important, EM.  Do not ignore it or minimize it.  It will help you, but it com s down to helping yourself and exposing the PD without compromise, IME.

STBX has already made requests for compromises......RESIST.

Persist holding her feet to the fire until you're done with trial prep and trial is about to begin.....then MAYBE the stbx will settle on the Courthouse steps.  Maybe.

You have to squeeze her into facing consequences for her behavior, IME.

Only then can you shorten the struggle and get thru and out this abyss.....have the safe family your children deserve and need to heal.

Don't tell anyone off in the meantime.  Focus on yourself and notice what's going on in your body and internal world.  Make time to mindfully  breathe and sit in resting awareness.

Make sure you look your girls in the eyes....be really present with them and SEE them....laugh and make food and play games.  You might have to go through psych evals with them and playing board games is one thing they often do to look at family dynamics.  Play games and speak gently and reassure them all will be well....you live and accept them as your children unconditionally, but hlhave issues with some if their behaviors....like the fighting and agression......just calmly let them know they're ok.  It's some if their behaviors you have issues with IF you address boundaries at all.  Make sure not to shame the girls.  Make sure to calmly talk about behaviors and let them know you believe in them and trust they can make better choices.

Calm.  Consistent.  Trust your children are smart and capable of overcoming the adult conflict.

[hhaw]

Check with solicitor.

Update your solicitor .... document your requests for help to the solicitor in many ways.  With the domestic violence people too!

Get in to see your new T.

Check on Ts for the girls.

Check with school counselor and involve them in thought s process to support your children.

You need allies and advocates, e m.  Even if speaking the truth is mortifying...put together a shirt blurb to explain without expectation or judgment and ask for help.

[escapingman]

The girls are really defiant against STBX at the moment, STBX is demanding  me to be on her side which I am not. If she shouts at them, and they answer back that is her problem. She even got in to a bit of a fight with SG and raised her voice when GC had a friend round, STBX is really losing her cool. If she keep shouting in front of the kids friends I think she will quickly find people against her. I am just staying out of it, I have no energy at all.

As for the boardgames, it's tricky to do anything in the house as STBX creates drama all over. But I am doing sports with SG all the time, GC is more difficult as she still pander to the PD. I spend an awful lot of time with SG, which I love and is great, I just wish I could spend similar time with GC, but hopefully that will come.

I am having my first real appointment with my T this week, it will be over a videocall, will have to go out and take it in the car, but I really am looking forward to it.

[guitarman]

**** Trigger Warning ****

Forgive yourself you are only human, not superhuman. You will do better the next time. We can get all our buttons pushed until we break.

It's the narcissistic cycle of abuse where the abuser turns everything around to become the victim. They can provoke you into anger then they have the evidence to use against you that you are now the abuser. It's a twisted messed up mind game.

If it hurts it isn't love.

My father wanted to kill himself because he couldn't cope with all the stress and dramas my uBPD/NPD sister caused. He was an elderly, frail person living with cancer, heart issues and other serious physical health conditions. My sister would goad him into submission with all her loud tantrums and emotional blackmailing. She had no empathy for other people's feelings. She was emotionally blind.

Later our vulnerable elderly mother was under safe guarding to protect her because of the way my sister behaved towards her. Myself and other members of my family had regular meetings with the local mental health safe guarding team without my sister ever knowing. She was never invited to attend them. It was all done to protect our mother from any further abuse. I was assigned a social worker I could call.

Whatever you do can be wrong. I could say the nicest, caring things to my sister and she would twist everything around to hear what she wanted.

Don't get embroiled in all the word salad and pointless arguments. I know it's not easy to stay calm and detached. Don't feed the narcissistic supply.

Observe don't absorb.

I've been listening to loving kindness "metta" Mindfulness meditations on YouTube. They have really helped me to build my self esteem by learning to be kinder to myself first, then passing that onto others.

We need to be loving and kind to ourselves first.

Glad to know that you will be talking to your therapist soon.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[guitarman]

I watch Dr Ramani on YouTube as well. I have learnt a lot from her.

[JustKeepTrying]

 

EM - it's been two plus years out for me and there are times I wonder - have doubts.  Then I reread my posts and my journal and I remember - my resolve hardens and I am better able to process those shadows that creep back in.

Please give yourself little breaks through the day so you can be there for the girls.  If you can't leave now, and you are there to protect them, then this is the time to hold like hhaw suggests and protect those precious girls.  Doc everything and keep in contact with your lawyer - remember a squeaky wheel gets the oil so if you are having trouble with your ex and you communicate it every time with your ex - I bet your lawyer will come with some ways that will help you.

[escapingman]

Thanks for all your amazing replies, they all help! I have tried to write down some reflections but I think I need to have some more time for that. Thanks again for the support.

[hhaw]

EM:

Find a private and quiet place to take that T call.

Figure out the placement of your device on steering wheel or dashboard well ahead.  It's unsettling to the T if the camera moves around or falls over.

Download whatever app the T uses well ahead and read up on navigating it if it's not familiar. 

Be prepared to make deep eye contact and ask for triage care.....  You need support to get a through current situation trapped with the stbx.  You'll work on causes and processing trauma later......most likely.

In the shirt term leading up to T appt.... practice deep breathing and self care.

Ask for what you think you need NOW.  A good T will understand quickly how to give you info and tools to keep and get you back to level during crisis.

Be super honest and open to new information.  Don't hold back tears or hide them..... you'll be in a safe environment and emotions need to come into the light..... experiencing them with a compassionate witness forms an important bond of trust necessary for healing.

Compassion will likely feel alien but stay present.  Gift yourself willingness to receive compassion and understanding.....notice your body fighting it and relax into try to relax and keep breathing into it....open and back receptive.

I wish you a deep connection to your T.  Believe their words and get all the  support you can from them.

[escapingman]

EM,
I'm really grateful for your honesty in posts like this. It makes me feel less crazy myself! I waffle regularly between absolute assurance that my uPDw is completely to blame for her obvious abuse and terrible treatment of me...then I can fall right back into, "maybe she's justified in her behavior because I really AM that bad." I've been going through a serious bout of doubting myself the past few days as she has been kinder to me, and even bordered on apologizing for her behavior (though in retrospect, the "apology" was a false-apology meant to make me feel guilty...but I digress...).

Just know that you are not alone in those feelings, I think all of us who are abused by a PD doubt ourselves from time to time. I've seen countless posts on here, "maybe I'm the Narcissist" "maybe I'm the PD." Just the fact that you're analyzing those feelings/thoughts is a sure sign that you're not to blame.

I like what HHAW said, "At some point in your childhood you likely internalized the message you aren't good enough.  Trying to prove one is worthy makes one a perfect target for N's abuse and manipulation, IME.  It's familiar to me. " This is 100% true for me, and I know I spend far too much time in my relationship trying to make myself the perfect image of who my W wants me to be because I don't feel good enough the way I am, and I think if I say/do the right things she'll finally start treating me better.

Have you watched Dr. Ramani on YouTube? She is absolutely brilliant, I cannot even tell you how helpful her stuff has been for me. Here is just one I'd recommend

Bottom-line: IT IS NOT YOU!!! No, you're not perfect. None of us are. But from all your posts on here it seems you are a good person who wants to be treated with dignity and respect, and you deserve that. The only solution is going to be to get away. I wish for you you could do that today. In the meantime...as HHAW said...breathe and hold. And remember that you are not alone.

Thanks for a really good reply user, the video by Dr Ramani was excellent and just what I needed now. I have watched many of her videos, but for every one I watch I feel just a little bit better. I also watch a lot of Les Carter who is also very good. Depending on where in my own recovery cycle I am I also really enjoy to watch Richard Grannon and Sam Vaknin, but they can be very heavy and very scientific so you need to be in the right mood for them. If you have the time and feel up for it, I think this seminar is very good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvqiOAg6D8 .

hhaw, I have done meetings in this form before in the car so that should not be a problem. I also have a parking space on a car park I know my STBX wont go to so I am safe in that sense as well (also good reception on the phone). I am looking forward to what the T has to say and how she can help, but I do feel I have done a lot of ground work using this site, the books and youtube videos. I can see where things went wrong in myself longing for validation, it wasn't so much my parents but the environment with all other kids and the pressure of being good at sports (which I wasn't at a young age). Up until quite recent I was determined to be successful just to prove them all wrong and to turn up in my home town buying the most expensive house, driving the flashiest car having the best wife and kids. The more I have been toying with that dream the more I know that's my real issue. I know now they were just kids, better than me at sport, "bullying" me because I wasn't as good. I don't even think they bullied me, but the feeling to sit on the subs bench game after game didn't really help. Never mind, I now know I have nothing to prove to them, I have no idea what they are doing today and I don't care either. But I cannot keep an abusive wife just to prove how successful I am, that is failure and not success.

I have lived my STBX dream for too long, it has really worn me down forgetting my own dreams (I don't even know what they are). STBX wanted a big house on the best street in our suburb, I worked my socks off to get her that. She wanted me to use all money on the mortgage so we could become free of a mortgage and have an "easy" life, I did as she said and now we are literally free of a mortgage. So her new dream is that she want an even bigger house on an even better street, that's when I started to rebel against her. I worked so hard for so long for "her dream" and then when completing it she has a new dream. Now she can settle for whatever house she can afford following the divorce, that's not up to me, she won't like the downgrade. I am OK with downgrading, I just want peace and enough space for me and the girls.

Sorry for going on a bit, but I have finally started to get where it all started and why. At least I think so. I am putting myself (and the girls) first, I don't need validation from anyone else. No one.

[hhaw]

EM:

I haven't heard anything about protecting the kids lately from the adult conflict or PD abuse.

Having been through the legal system, ignored, assumed a liar or that I was exaggerating as are all litigants IME.... I worry you're experiencing the same thing OR are too stoic (I was too) or haven't asked for or insisted the systems afford you everything your children are entitled to.

That's why I want to make sure you document your requests in ways that make the abuse and harm crystal clear AND place some responsibility on your attorney and Judge if they fail to do what they can.  You  have to make sure you don't tick your attonrey or Judge off while MAKING your case and it's always easier to SHOW your case with documents lined up in a notebook, easy to access and laid out cleanly, along with clear factual statements made without expetation, but they should be very factual.

This morning it hit me...... ARE EM's children really in harm's way?  Because if they really really were, EM WOULD do something, the courts would DO something, his attorney would Do something, but I know your girls are in harm's way.  I know they're suffering and experiencing trauma every day...... my heart just can't believe there's no intervention or help possible.

If you document properly..... you won't have to hear the situation must not have been so bad IF YOU ALLOWED it to go on for so long, bc you'll have stepped up, asked for relief and protections over and over and clearly and without being stoic or minimizing it.

At trial, and I do think you're headed there.... please don't fear it.... it will work out for you and the kiddos, IME...... at trial all the documentation will be important.  Make sure you understand what is admissable where you are and make sure you have plenty of it. 

I'm curious what the local Domestic Violence Agency will say if you update them and ask them to advocate for you and the children.  Perhaps they'll have an answer you don't expect and find helpful.

Certainly, some form of therapeutic intervention would be the very least the girls are entitled to.  Domestic violence agencies should have those resources.  I hope they do.

[escapingman]

With all respect hhaw, I am just trying to keep my head above the water and survive. The conflict in the house is very low at the moment as I am avoiding it and MC and GR. Sure things could be better, but even with all the evidence I think I will struggle to get more than 50% of the custody in this country, if I start a fight I risk getting less. At the moment I am waiting for the confirmation STBX has accepted the divorce, then the financial discussion need to start which could also include an agreement about the children. I am not going to be the one opening fire, if open war is started I know how horrible it could get, I will let her be the one starting that. I have my recordings, my journaling and I don't think she will be able to keep her mask on if questioned. So far I have played the slow game, and the reward has been low conflict so far, but I know what she is capable of.

Right now, I am doing my all to keep the kids as sane and normal as possible, please don't push me that I should do more as I would struggle right now.

[feralcat]

EM, just popping into say I've had 4 telephone counselling sessions. I liked the sound of the therapist online, as she is trauma based. Neither she or I had ever tried non face to face work before. She didn't want to see clients she hadn't met before, because of Covid.
It's been great !
I actually think maybe it's better ? Because I don't have the embarrassment factor, especially if I'm talking about really vulnerable things. She can't see me twitching around lol. Makes it more of a conversation, with fewer distractions ?
Whatever ...
She seems really pleased with how it's working as well.

So, good luck, and I hope the conversation flows easily. And that the two of you are a great fit !

[escapingman]

I have a good feeling about the T, in our introduction session she recommended me to read "Stop walking on eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder", which makes me hope she understands the BPD/NPD abuse. I have downloaded and listened to the first chapters of this book, it is good, really good. I couldn't stop listening when I started so have almost gone through half the book, it talks about things from the other borderlines perspective as well, this really explains a lot of her behaviour. As I understand it some BPD have some insight and can be treated if they realise they need help (however I think in my personal opinion these are people experiencing severe PTSD and not BPD), my STBX is NOT one of these. She is completely unaware of her behaviour, but with the tests in the book she is definitely more NPD than BPD (although in my opinion again I believe unaware BPD's are NPD's). I will have my first real session later today, so a bit nervous and excited at the same time.

[escapingman]

Have listened to some more of the book "Stop walking on eggshells", a lot of the book is about how to handle a relationship with a BPD. I am struggling to see how this could ever be possible with my STBX however much I tried, she does not do any boundaries and doesn't hesitate to triangulate with the kids. A lot in the book is good, but I am not sure if it is really BPD people they refer to when they seem to think the relationship can be changed by changing us. Yesterday she came into me starting talking to me again about changing my mind, after politely asking her to stop and to leave me alone for 5 minutes she still kept going. Giving me all reasons for why it would be better to stay married, all of the reasons of course great for her, not as great for me. Moaning about how poor we both will be and we are better off staying together in the house, that's great for her, but what about the other people in the house that have restrictions on where in the house they are allowed to be and at what times. She really can't see, apparently the lounge is hers and hers only, anyone is allowed to be there with her but then they have to watch what she picks on the TV. GC unfortunately buys into it and sit with her, me and SG try to find other activities to do in my office (kitchen becomes a no go as soon as STBX is collecting her drinks or snacks). I am so so so so ready to move out, or have her move out. I need to discuss this properly with my solicitor, but she is away this week so have to wait until next week. STBX also put up a stink as I have removed her from the payroll in the company, she then in the background logged on to the bank and helped herself to money from the company. When I told her she can't she just smirked and thought she could, true that she could but she will be taxed extra on that money and the payroll will need to be adjusted but she don't see those things. She also thinks she will keep receiving 50% of all my income indefinitely, this despite she has a higher earning potential than me if she only could be bothered. She pretends she cant get any job with any decent pay despite having a top degree from a top university. I really struggle with the concept that she is extremely intelligent when it comes to academics, but completely lost when it comes to simple day to day things. But that is apparently very common.

[Andeza]

Completely lost in the day to day stuff, like keeping a job, is huge for BPD. Particularly the waif and hermit types are prone to inventing workplace drama, imagining insults from others, affecting helplessness, etc, in order to have someone rescue them. My uBPDm used to brag about her small handful of jobs prior to becoming a stay-at-home-mom. Talking to my dad years later I learned that every single job she had been on the verge of being fired from for absences due to "health problems" or causing other issues in the workplace. Even found out she made him (she couldn't really make him but that's fine emotional intelligence line that he's not able to comprehend) quit one of her jobs for her because she "just can't."

But then when the rescuer removes themselves from the picture, it's nearly miraculous how fast the BPD individual can hop up and start doing for themselves. Don't be surprised if, within days of the divorce being final, she's already got herself a "new man." In other words, a new rescuer.

I'm going to throw an additional resource your way. "Understanding the Borderline Mother" The book is available on youtube, or was last time I checked anyway, and should be insightful to general BPD behavior. As I was listening to it, I thought to myself that it was valuable for more than just the children of a woman with BPD, because it looks at the entire family dynamic. Odds are good, EM, that prior to your own awakening, you served as the huntsman/protector. She's desperate to get that back because without the huntsman/protector her twisted narrative of reality falls apart. It's not "just a divorce" to her. It's the end of her entire world. Which, that's her problem not yours. But that is why she's being absolutely annoying as heck.

Does your office door have a lock? Can you shut her out and draw a boundary in a very big way like that? Can you add a lock if needed?

[Starboard Song]

Have listened to some more of the book "Stop walking on eggshells", a lot of the book is about how to handle a relationship with a BPD. I am struggling to see how this could ever be possible with my STBX however much I tried, she does not do any boundaries and doesn't hesitate to triangulate with the kids. A lot in the book is good, but I am not sure if it is really BPD people they refer to when they seem to think the relationship can be changed by changing us.

There are members here who take exception to Stop Walking On Eggshells (SWOE) for that reason: they think it is, uh, too generous to the BPD person. I think otherwise. I'd like to give my perspective on the book, which may increase your confidence, and then explain why I think you are exactly right.

Personality Disorders are rarely diagnosed. We seem to all agree with this. And it isn't like having an infectious disease: you either have the flu or you don't. PDs come in a range of severities, including the huge spectrum of folks that get talked about and complained about because they are annoying or toxic, but don't really qualify for the diagnosis of PD. I believe that SWOE has to address our challenges with PD people on the presumption that we don't want to just pull out our flame thrower and eradicate all such people from our lives. And we know they are quite bad at changing themselves. So what does that leave? Our own frame of mind, our own discipline, our own choices and rhetoric. So SWOE provides tactics the authors thought most likely to be successful, without assuming all antagonists are truly PD and without assuming that we need to all go NC. I agree with that editorial decision, if that was their thinking.

They spend less time addressing the reality that there are cases where boundaries are no longer viable. That even made my wife complain: "um, where is the chapter for our situation?!?"

I have never understood how one can administer boundaries while living in a house with someone determined to violate them. And if the standing regime is that a divorce is imminent, then I really don't see how you can do it. You are spot on: SWOE seems to me to be excellent advice until one discovers a person for whom boundaries are no longer viable: if boundaries cannot be self-enforced without resorting to a nuclear option, I regard them as not viable. For people in that circumstance, I think they need a note at the end of the book: in case of emergency, break glass. And there'd be another book about how to address such relationships: the ones you can simply ghost, and the ones like yours that you cannot.

You are in a hard spot, escapingman. But that is why we put so much into your choice of nom de guerre: you are "escaping," not "escaped." It is a process, not an event. And you are going to get there. And things will be better. And you'll be stronger and happier, and better able to support your kids through this and into the future. And you have so much wonderful ahead of you, an admixture -- no doubt -- with some of hard stuff that will be with you for a good while.

Be good. Be strong.

[escapingman]

That went bad.

Went out and had an online meeting from the car, not sure about the T at all. Will have to give her another chance but I am not sure what the point of today was. I was telling how I feel for an hour and all she really was doing was saying she understands me and felt sorry for me. Maybe I have learnt all myself and she doesn't have much to add? She kept telling me seems to know all about what's going on, she told me about the drama triangle and I seemed to be better of explaining how it works in reality. I will meet with her again next week, if nothing improves I ditch her, dr Ramani help me better.

Then when I came home all hell broke lose, kids had called me during my meeting to get picked up from school. Tried to explain I was busy and GC started swearing at me, backed by a smirking STBX who made fun of me of failing to pick the kids up (which was never promised). I got all this anger against her just releasing from all my MC and GR and I could just imagine myself spitting at her in disgust - however I controlled myself and removed myself from the room. For all her love bombing and begging, she can't keep the mask on, I can't wait to get out of this hell. STBX won this battle as she would see it, but for every battle she thinks she wins, she gets closer to lose the war.