How do I respond to this ? Accusations/ gaslighting/ reeling me in

[Sheppane]

Looking for suggestions how to deal with this situation.
Have been drawn again in a phone conversation by unMom to caretake uBPD/ narcsis ( you should call , she's very upset etc).
Backstory being I have set boundaries around emotional dumping from sis ( and bro) and both they and remaining family reeling me in as no one likes this new way of doing things. This is a long saga.

I have a freeze response at time of conversation always  - old trauma response- and after berate myself for not standing my ground/ standing up for myself .

My Mom remarked that my sis " feels" she cant speak to me about her issues - reality is she has not initiated contact with me in months ( punishment for me setting boundary) -  i do keep in contact but VLC / LC now. I await impending attack from sis. I M familiar with this pattern.

What is coming is sis will say she " feels" I don't care , it " seems" that way to her.  Even if I tell her I do.
All about putting me on defensive when I have done nothing wrong. If I have I will make amends but the reality is the dysfunction in the family system does not like me resigning from caretaker/ scapegoat role.

How to respond to this?
I feel I get accused of not being enough, always. Bar is always higher, I cant jump.
She doesn't contact me- I get the blame. ( you don't care )
She will not take responsibility for her feelings and wants me to take them from her  - am not doing that anymore after years of caretaking and sacrificing myself in process.
Truth is I do care, but am not willing to be dumped on any more and have set boundaries around that ie no longer frequently checking in. Still do once / twice per month though.
Its never about me and always me to initiate.

How do I respond to these accusations? What I realise is I dont have the language. I dont know what to say when she keeps coming back with " yes but it doesn't FEEL like you care ".
It is designed to put me on the defensive,  I think ??
In which case I need to hand the feelings ( hers) back?

What do I say ?

" I do care. Im confused as to why you think I don't?" ( does that hand it back or worsen the whole thing )

Or " I'm sorry you feel I don't care about you. I do care. Is there something I have said / done ?

Maybe that plays into it.

Or ' well you know you can ring me any time " . ( She has clearly chosen not to for months and now telling unarcmom that I don't care)

Any experience or suggestions re phrases / language gratefully received!

[Thru the Rain]

How do I respond to these accusations? What I realise is I dont have the language. I dont know what to say when she keeps coming back with " yes but it doesn't FEEL like you care ".
It is designed to put me on the defensive,  I think ??
In which case I need to hand the feelings ( hers) back?

What do I say ?

This is absolutely intended to put you on the defensive.

Look up Gray Rock/Medium Chill in the toolkit: https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/medium-chill .

Some possible answers to "it doesn't FEEL like you care" - all stated in a neutral/kind voice:

- Hmmmmm

- I'm sorry you feel that way.

- We'll have to agree to disagree.

- I'll think about that.


And as a possible answer to your M asking you to call your sister:

One of my all time favorites gathered from other members: The phone works both ways.

And some from the Medium Chill toolbox page:

- I can't do anything about that.

- I can't help with that.

- That's too bad.

Definitely think back to your conversations with your Mom/Sister and practice a few Medium Chill phrases so they feel comfortable. You can even write a few down so you can look at them when/if your mind goes blank during a phone call.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Sometimes I wonder if we think we are not saying the right things because what we say does not resolve the current issue or make the relationship better. I wonder if we hope that we can find words that will finally bring us all to a common understanding. Then maybe what they will say back to us is something like "Oh, yes, of course I see. I think I get it now." Then the offloading of blame and conflict will end and we can have harmony at last.               
                 
I am not so sure we ever get to that point with PD individuals. I wonder if sometimes the best we can do is stick to our grey rock responses (great examples posted already and in the Toolbox) and accept that it will not be what they want. Accept that some things might not be resolved. Maybe what we can achieve instead is to have peace within ourselves, if not with our FOO. 
   
You know you care about them. You could go nuts trying to get them to finally realize it. If your FOO says it does not feel like it a short response such as "That is not true. I am sorry you feel that way" might be good and let it go. No need to defend or explain. If you ask if something you did made them think that, it might open the door to engage in ongoing arguments that will never make sense to you. 

[Hepatica]

It seems that once we set boundaries and alter the dance with the PD's, they can't stand it. Their problem is they can no longer control you. You have played a role for them, and now you've decided it's not healthy for you and they've lost their dumping ground.

Too bad.

You don't need anyone's emotional waste. If your sister needs to talk to someone, find a minister or therapist like the rest of us. Because, at least they have the emotional distance to handle the dumping. We, on the other hand, do love these people. I could not stand listening to my sister's misery for one second longer and seeing how she did nothing to help herself. All she wanted was to talk about it and not change. It was incredibly painful, because I do love her.

That's why there are professionals.

How about: Yes I do care. I care a lot. So please respect that and find a professional to talk to about these things.

Your mother is trying to offload the stress onto you. And why does she feel you have the professional skills to fix your sister? Their thinking is toxic and maladaptive.

I never ever have gone to my FOO and dumped my emotional or physical issues onto them. Most of us take care of ourselves and when we can't we seek help from experts.

[Sheppane]

Thank you all very much for your super helpful comments.
I needed the validation that I had correctly read the situation and I was being put on the defensive. That is a trauma response where I cant trust my own feelings.
I will look at the medium chill,  gray rock .

Blueberry Pancakes I really relate to what you said about if we think we are not saying the right things because it does not resolve the conflict ( or for me often makes it worse). The idea that the blame and conflict and dysfunction will end if only we knew what to say.

Maybe that's why I'm so focused on finding the right words ?

Thank you for the " that is not true. Im sorry you feel that way ".  Because I freeze so much I think it will help me some to practice these phrases in advance so at least I can put two words together at the time.

Its becoming about moving my boundary from silence to actually being able to verbally express it.

If anyone has any suggestions how to verbalise cutting off / ending a stream of emotional dumping that would be great too. Ive thought of phrases that start with " Mom I can hear you are upset,  but ...." I cant figure what comes next !

Thank you Hepatica for your suggestion also - I will write these phrases down! Yes  I can no longer be controlled that makes sense, and no one likes having the dumping ground removed I guess.

And absolutely so true there are professionals for this. You are right most people don't dump their stuff on others, they seek professional support.

Thanks

[DistanceNotDefense]

Blueberry Pancakes I really relate to what you said about if we think we are not saying the right things because it does not resolve the conflict ( or for me often makes it worse). The idea that the blame and conflict and dysfunction will end if only we knew what to say.

Maybe that's why I'm so focused on finding the right words ?

IME that's the trap they build for you. There is no such thing as the right words. The right words is not what they want, because the right words would break the spell.

What they want is to turn your feelings into a runaway train, to keep you on the hook fretting and analyzing the best way to show and prove to them that you do indeed care, and make sure you believe that whatever you do is not enough.

This is the only real thing that makes them feel valid in a relationship with someone healthy/non-PD/etc.: They're addicted to being the ones holding the invisible strings with you at the other end, and it's sad because they don't know any other way to be relational or feel good or safe with others, besides using this controlling method.

You constantly feel like you have to prove that you care, even if you or they can't even pinpoint what exactly you did wrong. There's nothing wrong, they just want you on the string; feeling like you did something wrong is what keeps you on the string.

"It just doesn't FEEL like you care." But you do care, Sheppane. That is gaslighting. What more proof can you give them? How in the hell can you make them *feel* anything? It almost sounds like an admission on their part: that there is nothing you can do that will ever make them feel like what you do is enough.

I spent night upon night of insomniatic sprees wondering how to say things better and more clearly for them to hear me. I wondered what I could say that would finally make the conflict go away, for them to let go, for me to be in their good books again. I started to hate and loathe myself intensely without even realizing it. I really must be awful because I wasn't who or what they needed me to be by nature, and they are my family and that means they must love me - and if that is true, than I must definitely be wrong. I couldn't believe I was wrong anymore. They taught me that.

This didn't sit right with a part of me that I've learned to listen to more and more. It was only when I stopped playing the game that I started to love myself and realize that there was nothing I could do or say that would make any of this better, and I started the very difficult first step of starting to love myself.

Sadly, every step since then has taken me farther and farther away from them and the game they insist I play.

[Sheppane]

Wow distancenotdefense this really hit home. Sometimes I really need it spelled out that yes this type of behaviour is controlling and pulling the strings and yes it is sad. I find I over empathise and justify and make excuses and that constantly brings me to a place of ...its not that bad,  I'm over dramatising things, maybe they don't know better / don't realise how this hurts me ( possibly true) ...but the problem with that is I confuse it all and end up staying in harmful situations and giving far too much benefit of doubt, harming myself in the process.

It really helps to have you relate to the idea of constantly feeling I have to prove to them that I care , that I am not the things they say or insinuate . The vagueness of accusations is tricky too, because how do I defend myself? I guess that's why its vague , to keep me hooked in.

I had a big realisation reading this how guilt or even if it is not guilt ( this is lessening with therapy) , but holding into the idea that I'm doing something wrong / not enough - actually preserves the idea that they love me. 
If they are rejecting/ punishing me because I've done something wrong - well they love / care about me. If they are rejecting me and I havent actually done anything wrong - that means they don't/ cant love me in a healthy way. Never thought about it like that. The love for me may be based on me interacting in certain ways only - and otherwise withheld - really painful to see it like that,  but good too. I guess its not intentional , it may just be their conditioning and how they are. But my empathy for them gets fired up then because they don't necessarily see it like that and I do care about them and don't want them to feel abandoned by me, if that makes sense.

And yes that lightbulb around the " I FEEL ". You are right it is an admission of how I cant jump high enough. Didn't see it like that at all.

I'm sorry you have gone through this too. It is very painful. Thank you for sharing your experience

[SparkStillLit]

I'm in that camp. Whenever I feel the need to defend my position, that's the warning sign.
(And I think that oh-so-much!! JADE JADE JADE)
As I always say, games you will never win, so try not to waste your time playing. Much easier said than done. You have to even identify the game first. Then they switcheroo and get you on your back foot again, and back around the mulberry bush we go. (I'm pretty sure mulberries grow on trees. We had one. But I digress...)
It's absolutely exhausting. I'm sorry to you, and all of us involved in this particular goat rodeo. I can't quite bring myself to get completely out of it, either.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I totally relate Sheppane.

SparkStillLit: Oh it is definitely a goat rodeo. Perfect description. I've taken care of goats before and that is accurate!

I had a big realisation reading this how guilt or even if it is not guilt ( this is lessening with therapy) , but holding into the idea that I'm doing something wrong / not enough - actually preserves the idea that they love me. 
If they are rejecting/ punishing me because I've done something wrong - well they love / care about me. If they are rejecting me and I havent actually done anything wrong - that means they don't/ cant love me in a healthy way. Never thought about it like that.

I think you've really hit home for me with what you just said here, too! It's been too hard to describe but you do it perfectly. Once you realize you're not really to blame and/or you're guilty of nothing, you kind of break their paradox.

It really opened my eyes. I realized with my FOO that I had to be small, sad, stressed, guilty/shamed, dysfunctional, a source of drama/gossip, failing at life, or everyone's caretaker to be loved. When I wanted to be healthy, I was an enemy, rejecting them, "too much", and undeserving of open and direct nurturing and understanding.

I'm 1000% sure my FOO loves me, and I'm sure they would say the same to anyone they know, and I do think their love of me is very real to them - I don't doubt it. It's not like they're trying to pull one over on us in a cold calculated way (well, most of my FOO - I think my older sibling may be sociopathic). I genuinely think they are completely unaware and empathy is a huge blindspot to them.

It's literally their definition of love and what love is, is to have someone on a string, have it be totally conditional, and it is sad. If someone doesn't want to be on the string anymore, that's rejection and the opposite of love to them. But they're fooling themselves just as much as they are fooling us into this game, it is tragic.

It's love IMO, just not healthy or equal love, and it's based on control. I respect and will not try to change their definition of love, but I cannot be the recipient of it.

It's like someone saying "I love you, but you also need to tap dance until you die" and you just get tired of tap dancing. And the day you stop tap dancing because you thought it was all a joke anyway, their disappointment in you is so immense, overwhelming, and traumatizing you keep dancing for them and ignore how tired you are because you, too, were raised to think this is love. But if it's really love why do I feel so wrong, rejected, and exhausted?

I just can't and will never tap dance or "play the game" again, even though it was lovely for a while.

[Sheppane]

Wow distancenotdefense thanks for your reply. Im sorry you've experienced this too.
Yes I totally get that - what you said about being loved by FOO but once we become healthy we become the enemy. Its like a betrayal to them I think. And I do believe they can't really see it like that. It really is very tragic.

I really like what you said " I respect and will not try to change their definition of love, but I cannot be the recipient of it.". Wow that is very powerful.

I cannot be the recipient of it.

I am feeling quite lonely pondering all of this- fear, I think of where this is going. I know I need to show up and stand in my own truth more in these FOO relationships- always medium chill and JADE to me feels almost like I'm being controlling if that makes sense ? I feel I owe it to my integrity to respectfully use my voice and authentically engage,  even if it creates DARVO. Not to bring harm on myself but to keep my side clean. What happens then is out of my control. And I guess that feels like a dilemma right now. Show up in my truth and communicate in a way to keep myself safe ( ie leaving triggering conversations/ boundaries around dumping on me etc ) , or say nothing and medium chill.

I just don't know.

[notrightinthehead]

I guess that is the choice that most of us face daily.  Every time we engage - do we do it with the hope to finally get through? The hope that there will be a change? Only to confirm what we already know.

[BerneseMtnMom]

This thread really hits home.  Also, just read the thread about coping with the resentment of a PD sibling.  I have been studying this since April of 2020 and never have I heard this about FOO dynamics.  Thank you.

I have an example and I think I will post it in the resentment thread, as it maybe makes more sense there, but I do realize that I felt like they are saying, "You must tap dance until you die." That was a real eye-opener.