Excuses and the truth

[Pepin]

Over the years my DH has provided a variety of excuse for his mother....the usual: that's the way she is, that is what she likes, she doesn't know any better.  But recently he has thrown in a new one: she doesn't have the academic education that we have.   

Uh, really?  If I am interpreting this correctly, one needs to have an "academic education" in order to coexist and *behave* around other people? 

If she struggles with a simple way of doing something or interaction, DH thinks it is because she lacks education.  I have a very difficult time believing this AND I think it is a blow to those who also don't have "educations" but have gone on to better themselves anyway with the strengths that they have.  There are so many things that we learn just by living -- these are things that we don't learn in school.  DH truly believes that she is allowed to dwell in her particular mindset because she isn't educated. 

And this also goes against things that DH used to say about her when I was getting to know him.  Before meeting his parents he took it upon himself to tell me about all the great things they have achieved in their lives and all the things that they had accumulated from hard work, etc.

When I first met his parents at their home, DH's words had painted a picture vastly different from reality.  It was highly unsettling to see how they lived and far they had come just to have what they currently had at the time...

As the enabler and the GC with SG veins (enmeshed), I feel as though all the positive things that DH has said about PDmil, were actually about him.  He was in a sense projecting his own journey of growth -- but since he is so heavily parentified, he was muddling the lines and giving credit to PDmil.  This is why I could not make sense of what he said when I met PDmil.  It just didn't match.  if indeed there was truth to DH's words, then I have only seen the shell of a woman over the last 25 years. 

His excuses for her hurt me.  He expects me to see her through his eyes when I cannot.  I think he knows I see differently but is ashamed.  And why can't I just "take the high road" and let her be?  IDK....maybe it I because I am tired of her jabs.  Maybe it is because I don't play dumb games.  Maybe it is because I am an adult and would never accept this behavior from my kids or friends.  Maybe it is because DH is afraid of the truth.

[Leonor]

Hi Pepin,

Me too. I hear that all the time, how hard their life was, etc etc.

This is what I keep mind: Mr. Roger's saying that in an emergency, look for the helpers. Because in the very worst of times, you can find someone brave enough and good enough and kind enough to be a helper.

That's not to diminish trauma, or to judge those of us who did what we did to survive, or to deny compassion to those who did not help. I've been blessed to never have to choose between my survival and failing to help someone else.

It's just to note that people who are abusive may have experienced trauma, but that not all who experience trauma are abusive.

Education has nothing whatsoever to do with abuse. There's a lot of people in the world with all kinds of fancy degrees who are lousy people, and there are lots of people who have no schooling at all and are kind

But this is irrelevant, because you're right that dh is trying to accomplish mental gymnastics in order to avoid his mother's disapproval. It must have been terrifying for him as a little boy.

Just nod, yes, that is true, it has been hard and she may act this way as a result. But that does not mean that it is ok for me to be treated like this, and this is how I plan to keep myself safe and sane in the here and now.

[Hilltop]

Pepin you don't need to see your MIL exactly as your DH sees her, in fact I wouldn't talk about her with him.  I say this because I understand how frustrating it is.

My FIL was in hospital for a lengthy period and he wouldn't do his physio exercises, lost a lot of condition and wouldn't walk and eventually was told he would have to go into a nursing home.  My MIL furiously told me "he can't walk", I furiously told her back "he can walk, he just isn't doing it".  When the reality of a nursing home hit FIL amazingly he managed to get up and start walking.  DH still claims that he suggested a new physio machine to use and that within 2 days of using that FIL was amazingly able to start walking. DH still believes this machine was the answer.  I watched the physio guys ask FIL to simply stand up from sitting in a chair and he would say "no, no, no, I can't do it".  They would then say to him "ok you can't do it, please stand up to get into the wheelchair and we'll take you back to the room".  FIL stood up without complaint and put himself in the wheelchair.  I would stand there with my mouth open but did MIL or DH acknowledge that, no, to this day, they still believe FIL couldn't do it.  This new machine that DH suggested I never once saw FIL use it when we visited, however despite that, he could suddenly start walking.  Amazing.

One of FIL's complaints now is that when he asked the nurses to take him to the toilet at night, they refused and made him wear a nappy.  He says quite openly now how he could simply walk to the toilet but they refused and how horrible they were.  I said to DH but FIL couldn't walk in physio, he could only take 2-5 steps, he was a fall risk, the nurses saw him not being able to walk every day, why would they get him out of bed to walk to the toilet at night, isn't that odd to you DH.  Nope DH can still not see it he agrees with FIL that the nurses were horrible for not walking FIL to the toilet even though FIL couldn't walk during his physio session or even during the day.  later DH said that they should have put him in a wheelchair and taken him to the toilet however I told him with all the patients on the ward they are simply too busy for that, FIL didn't help them during the day but wanted all the help during the night.  It doesn't work that way.

Then when FIL finally came home, DH and I would visit and MIL would get the blood pressure device and take his blood pressure and then check his pulse.  I sat there inwardly rolling my eyes, I wanted to ask FIL if MIL ever did this when DH wasn't present however I think we all know the answer.  DH told MIL that she was better than a doctor.  Look he said to me she is just like a doctor my reply was "oh like the doctor that performed open heart surgery and replaced his aortic valve, yes they are so similar in what they can do".  I stopped talking with my DH about it because it was so infuriating.

My MIL had sat there while my FIL was in hospital and had not gotten him to do his physio exercises at all, not once, she had given him litres of water even though he was on fluid restrictions and the extra fluid was putting him in danger of heart failure and at times he did need to be given medication to drain the extra fluid in his lungs, the nurses and doctors were openly frustrated and irritated by her behaviour.  What did DH see, MIL as a doctor.

Don't talk about your MIL with your DH.  He won't ever see her how you see her.  He won't admit to you about her mistakes, they just don't and it isn't worth the frustration listening to their warped views about their parents.

Honestly one of the best things I did was stop talking about MIL.

[SparkStillLit]

My DH (who is a pd) gets completely spooled up when speaking about MIL who is also a pd. I zip right out of these conversations now. He also gets spooled up about my pdm (and so do I). I definitely try not to have THOSE conversations, either. He has ideas how we should be handling them. We live way closer to my m than his and mine is way more invasive. I disagree with his ideas for the most part, but I let him do him. I get away and if he REALLY thinks "we" should see my m, well, I've got important shit to do, HE can go. (He only goes if my stepdad is there. I love the man dearly, but HE can't live with my mom either, and sometimes I forgo seeing him if he's with her).
I like the "keep your own boundaries" plan. And the "don't talk about the in laws" plan.
The first rule about in laws is, don't talk about in laws. 😆

[HippoDisco]

Don't talk about your MIL with your DH.  He won't ever see her how you see her.  He won't admit to you about her mistakes, they just don't and it isn't worth the frustration listening to their warped views about their parents.

Honestly one of the best things I did was stop talking about MIL.

How have you stayed sane knowing that you see the truth whilst DH continues to live under her spell? Has this not affected you both being on the same page when it comes to boundaries?

Does DH also not have lingering issues due to not dealing with this?

I guess I find it difficult as I'm also the child of a PD parent and don't think I'd be where I am now mentally if I hadn't recognised, accepted and dealt with what she is.

[Leonor]

"The first rule of in-laws is don't talk about in-laws"

[Call Me Cordelia]

"And why can't I just "take the high road" and let her be?  IDK....maybe it I because I am tired of her jabs.  Maybe it is because I don't play dumb games.  Maybe it is because I am an adult and would never accept this behavior from my kids or friends."

Pepin, I think you are taking the high road. You don't play the dumb games and mud wrestle with your MIL or your DH. You protect yourself and your children, and let them make their own choices. That's as classy as can be. There's nothing noble about enabling.

[Pepin]

Education has nothing whatsoever to do with abuse. There's a lot of people in the world with all kinds of fancy degrees who are lousy people, and there are lots of people who have no schooling at all and are kind

But this is irrelevant, because you're right that dh is trying to accomplish mental gymnastics in order to avoid his mother's disapproval. It must have been terrifying for him as a little boy.

Just nod, yes, that is true, it has been hard and she may act this way as a result. But that does not mean that it is ok for me to be treated like this, and this is how I plan to keep myself safe and sane in the here and now.

Thank you for this, I agree 100%. It wasn't until not too long ago that I realized that there was something about DH's upbringing that was amiss -- and I genuinely thought that he was raised in a better environment than I was.  But, he wasn't.  My only role growing up was SG.  He wore a variety of hats but mostly wears the GC hat which I think is a reaction to him originally not really having any role other than being just another mouth to feed.  That was embarrassing to him, I think.  And then the guilt took over and he stepped up to be the GC.

I also wanted to add that when I met DH, I thought it was *nice* the way he looked after his parents.  I thought he was doing good things for them and that they had a good relationship.  I couldn't understand why his siblings weren't on the same page about this.  And over the years, I gained clarity about the situation.  I realized that all the siblings had some problems that stemmed from their divisive upbringing.  I discovered that DH was being unfairly taken advantage of by the entire family.  His siblings cannot seem to survive without him in one form or another -- yet they live their lives independently and with little interaction with PDmil because they let DH deal with it.  Why he does it, I really don't know other than to make sure that after PDmil dies that each of the siblings get their respective share of PDmil's wealth and not a penny more - especially when they have done nothing for PDmil or taken advantage of PDmil.  Gee, I wonder where they learned that behavior from?  Pdmil of course.

[Poison Ivy]

Pepin, I'll offer this, FWIW. I was in a similar situation: enmeshed husband (now ex-husband), in-law (father-in-law) probably had an NPD. What I eventually realized that the excuse or reason for the situation didn't matter, to me, my husband, or his father. What mattered was that I didn't like the situation (husband withdrew from being a spouse and a parent and ran home to his parents to be their caregiver), that husband preferred living with his parents to being with me, and that father-in-law didn't care about the effect of the situation on my husband and me.

[Hilltop]

Don't talk about your MIL with your DH.  He won't ever see her how you see her.  He won't admit to you about her mistakes, they just don't and it isn't worth the frustration listening to their warped views about their parents.

Honestly one of the best things I did was stop talking about MIL.

How have you stayed sane knowing that you see the truth whilst DH continues to live under her spell? Has this not affected you both being on the same page when it comes to boundaries?

Does DH also not have lingering issues due to not dealing with this?

I guess I find it difficult as I'm also the child of a PD parent and don't think I'd be where I am now mentally if I hadn't recognised, accepted and dealt with what she is.

Hippo MIL is nice to DH. it was me she was horrible to.  I'm not sure if DH recognises that the guilt isn't normal but he puts a lot of it down to culture. 

It use to drive me crazy but time has helped.  DH is able to put a lot more boundaries in place although once FIL dies that could all change. 

Pepin I think you can let DH make up his own mind but you don't need to accept jabs. You can politely tell MIL to stop.  You can stand up for yourself.  You would do this with anyone else your MIL is no different.  It doesn't matter if DH doesn't like it,  you don't need to accept that. 

As poison says the why doesn't matter,  it's finding a way to cope or find your happy medium. 

It's annoying when parents demand too much.  It's selfish however guilt is easy to be played especially with aging parents.  There are no easy answers to that. 

[Pepin]

Don't talk about your MIL with your DH.  He won't ever see her how you see her.  He won't admit to you about her mistakes, they just don't and it isn't worth the frustration listening to their warped views about their parents.

Honestly one of the best things I did was stop talking about MIL.

Actually, DH is the one that keeps bringing her up.     I think he is just looking for someone to offload to since he struggles to set boundaries with his mother.  Sometimes I say nothing except uh-huh.  And other times, I try and point something out only using facts -- I guess I am hoping that he can figure out another solution to whatever hoop he has to jump through with her?  And you are correct, he will never admit her mistakes, never has and never will, and whatever the situation is it is not her fault.  Clearly, he fails to acknowledge the common denominator in all of the chaos: her.  Believe me, I really don't like hearing anything about her anymore.  And I feel sad about this sometimes because it seems natural to share with one's spouse but not in this toxic case.

[Pepin]

Don't talk about your MIL with your DH.  He won't ever see her how you see her.  He won't admit to you about her mistakes, they just don't and it isn't worth the frustration listening to their warped views about their parents.

Honestly one of the best things I did was stop talking about MIL.

How have you stayed sane knowing that you see the truth whilst DH continues to live under her spell? Has this not affected you both being on the same page when it comes to boundaries?

Does DH also not have lingering issues due to not dealing with this?

I guess I find it difficult as I'm also the child of a PD parent and don't think I'd be where I am now mentally if I hadn't recognised, accepted and dealt with what she is.

I am pained for DH.  I really am.  And then I vacillate between loving him and hating him.  Although most of the time I am annoyed with him.  He isn't the man I initially married anymore -- and I get that because we grow and change in a marriage as long as ours.  But, the fact is that throughout the marriage, the marriage to each other comes first.  So, I am frustrated that he has deviated while I have remained focused.  And this is getting old....and I am tired.  I am tired of thinking about PDmil; I am tired of being vigilant; I am tired that we even have to deal with her at this point.  Everything about her causes strain.  There is no joy.

DH on the other hand has become less fun to be around.  He is short tempered probably as a result of me being annoyed and distant with him.  Sometimes I think he really is a clueless person -- I mean, how much do I have to provide to him about what I am going through in order for him to see it from my point of view?  And that is where is goes around in circles again and he comes up with another dumb excuse.  I honestly don't think he will ever see clearly unless PDmil crosses the line in a way that offends him.  What that will be, I don't know.  Who knows, maybe at some point she will admit that all along she has despised me for not being of their culture?  Or maybe she will go crazy on DH and his siblings or even one of the siblings -- or any of the grandkids.  Whatever it is....I am waiting for her to go off the rails.

[Poison Ivy]

I felt sorry for my ex, but I also realized he was a willing participant in the situation. He complained sometimes. I said, "You don't have to be your parents' caregiver" (or something similar), and he would respond that he had no choice. He did. He always had choices.

[Hilltop]

Sorry Pepin, that's hard if he is bringing her up.  I remember going through a long period of time where I simply didn't want to hear about her at all so I feel for you.  I needed that space to recharge.  When you say you are tired, I understand that feeling.  I'm sorry the other things didn't work.

I agree with Poison that DH is a willing participant however I also blame the cultural background.  It is so engrained in Dh to be a caregiver, I even see it with his family friends.  They are so enmeshed and yet to them its the most normal thing in the world.  There are times I have thought that I don't want to step between that cultural belief too much because I fear when the inlaws pass that DH won't be able to forgive himself unless he does what he feels he needs to do, if that makes sense.  I know this is still his choice and yet it was also ingrained into him.

Is there anything you think you could do to make it better for you that doesn't involve your DH?

[Pepin]

Pepin, I'll offer this, FWIW. I was in a similar situation: enmeshed husband (now ex-husband), in-law (father-in-law) probably had an NPD. What I eventually realized that the excuse or reason for the situation didn't matter, to me, my husband, or his father. What mattered was that I didn't like the situation (husband withdrew from being a spouse and a parent and ran home to his parents to be their caregiver), that husband preferred living with his parents to being with me, and that father-in-law didn't care about the effect of the situation on my husband and me.

In a nutshell, yes.

I don't like the situation.
Husband prefers attending to his mother.
PDmil doesn't give a rat's a** about DH's marriage to me.

[Pepin]

I felt sorry for my ex, but I also realized he was a willing participant in the situation. He complained sometimes. I said, "You don't have to be your parents' caregiver" (or something similar), and he would respond that he had no choice. He did. He always had choices.

OMG 100%. He does have choices.  His siblings have choices and guess what, they do what they want to do rather than bending over backward the way DH does.  PDmil has also always had choices.  She decided however long ago that she doesn't want to be a big girl.

[Pepin]

They are so enmeshed and yet to them its the most normal thing in the world.  There are times I have thought that I don't want to step between that cultural belief too much because I fear when the inlaws pass that DH won't be able to forgive himself unless he does what he feels he needs to do, if that makes sense.  I know this is still his choice and yet it was also ingrained into him.

Is there anything you think you could do to make it better for you that doesn't involve your DH?

This is something that I think about often.  And I am confused because when DH and I met, he was anything but his cultural norm.  He was a rebel at best - a man out to seize the world without being bound by anything.  And that is why I loved him so much.  He was free and made a life for himself without being tied down to them.

Then we moved closer to them and had kids.  I can't believe how naive I was to what was slowly happening.  Then FIL died and DH was suddenly elevated to fill FIL's shoes -- despite that he is not the youngest son.  But, DH is the son that sealed his parents citizenship....so he in a sense is "special" in their eyes for that.  Technically his older brother should be the one taking care of everything but he is useless.  Needs DH's help to make financially sound decisions.  Makes lots of messes that PDmil cleans up rather than learning from his mistakes.

And then there is the wish from FIL before he passed away....that DH must take care of PDmil and his brother.     That's right, no mention of: take care of your wife and kids.     FIL essentially unloaded a HUGE burden on DH.  And I liked FIL....now I am not so sure.

The only thing that has been making me feel better about myself with regards to DH is detachment.  I think this is why I get so irritated with him now.....because emotionally I don't need him anymore.  Even physically sometimes.  I'm not even interested in intimacy much either.  It has become robotic.  I don't know if I will ever warm up to him again.....or if I do, when.  Seems that no matter what I do to try and help, my wheels spin.  Therefore, I am unsupportive to a man like him.  He has to manage PDmil by himself and that is what she wants anyway.   

[Poison Ivy]

In the final years of my marriage, it felt to me as though my husband was acting more like a spouse in his relationship with his father than in his relationship with me. I think ex-h and his dad both thought that they could have this "affair" and I wouldn't or shouldn't mind.

[Hilltop]

Its annoying that these MIL's are so selfish they don't care about their son's marriage.  Its really hurtful.

I can't believe your FIL placed that much guilt on your DH so now your DH feels like he needs to honour his fathers dying wish.

[Pepin]

Its annoying that these MIL's are so selfish they don't care about their son's marriage.  Its really hurtful.

I can't believe your FIL placed that much guilt on your DH so now your DH feels like he needs to honour his fathers dying wish.

Absolutely.  Sadly, I realize that my FIL was a pretty immature man.  Though I know he went through a lot.  But, he also got away with a lot.  Both him and PDmil were emotionally stunted human beings which is why DH was so heavily parentified.  Before DH came along and was old enough (11,12?) they relied on many other family members for help in seemingly common tasks.  It was just too overwhelming for them as immigrants.  The difference however is that others who also came over around the same time, have flourished.  I really don't know what was to blame for keeping PDMmil and FIL so stuck.  I think they just got used to having help and didn't ever bother to take things upon themselves that others were easily doing. 

DH routinely complains that PDmil cannot use her cell phone.  And it is true.  She doesn't grasp any concept about her cell phone despite having had one now for obviously over ten years.  She cannot retrieve voicemail; she has difficult hitting a touch screen hard enough.  She has no interest in learning about a cell phone or understanding how valuable one is.  I know many seniors that thrive now that they have cell phones - in fact, it is a way of keeping them safe and connected.  She thinks she is too old to learn -- but the thing is, this is a line she has used for as long as I have known her about anything new that crosses her path.  And that has been scary for me.  It is traumatic in a sense to look up to an elder like this who seems to have no strength but seemingly takes pleasure using their helplessness in knocking others down.  She truly is a cog in the wheel and she knows it.

She is also literally the only one in the entire extended family that behaves as she does.  Her own siblings have moved on with their lives with great strides.  They don't want to be helpless or miserable like her.  They have broken down many damaging behaviors and practices.  The only one that keeps PDmil's back is sadly, DH.