Hes still not happy that my wife hasn't phoned him - LET IT GO

[p123]

Wow - hes certainly persistent. 3rd conversation about this now in last 3 calls....

He tried the "nice" approach. "Its not your fault I know but she SHOULD have called me" "I think you need to have a word with her".

OMG He just is not getting it. Never in a million years is she going to phone him and I'm certainly not "having a word with her" (which is my Dads way of saying - your the husband, make her listen by whatever means necessary).

To be honest, so far, I've tried to avoid direct and telling him shes not phoning because she doesn't want to bother with you. That will cause it all to go off and then I'll have to list all the things hes done (and that won't end well).

It'll either be him denying hes done any of this, making excuses like "hes old", or most likely scenario, it'll be a case of "woe is me. I don't want to upset anyone, I'm so upset now". All I've seen a million times before especially the "woe is me" one. In the past, hes apologised then done the same thing weeks later. And anyway, how can you apologise for just general bad treatment? Hes never going to change?

This time I just said "lets leave it Dad". He wasn't happy and the rest of the conversation wasn't great. As expected I had the usual blackmail about how I've got to visit the weekend. Once again I said "no need for the blackmail Dad, I plan to visit anyway, if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. We've talked about this many times". (And hes apologised about 10 times but he still does it. BUT this time I get "but you'll HAVE to visit I've got no food".

My wife is working the weekend. Normally I'd take my daughter with me but she never wants to go. Dad completely ignores her anyway. This weekend she does have a play date with a friend so I'll be on my own.

Wife has said, when shes working, I should day "Nope not coming, I've got the kids". Not sure about this - eventually he will work it out then moan about her not coming to see him. Unbelievable really when he doesnt bother with her.

I get the impression the "wife phone call" argument is not finished. Next time should I be more blunt or just ignore him and ride out the storm?

[moglow]

P123, it's not your storm. It never was. He sounds like my mother in some ways - get that bit between the teeth and grinds on it come what may because it's available. It's his current "fight" and seems he wants that or he'd let it go. Fact is you're not and never were responsible for your wife's choices, any more than she is for yours. One of my brothers has outright told mother that she doesn't show any appreciation or interest in visitors unless they're not there, be more welcoming on any level and someone might want to visit occasionally. But no. Like your dad, onward with the current battle!

I wish I had some words of wisdom other than taking steps back and away from your dad's self-inflicted isolation and drama when and how you can. You can't fix it and sounds like you're gonna run yourself buggy trying.

[Hazy111]

Your wife is  possible narc supply for him. Hes worrying hes losing his main and by sound of it only source. You. Trying to get you both back in the fold . 

My Dad was always encouraging me to make contact with my various nephews and nieces to enable his supply from them . (They lived close by) As in maybe Uncle Hazy will talk to them and encourage them to talk/visit him. Cunning and clever narc he is. I didnt as they werent in the slightest bothered talking to me or him. My sis would pass the buck on to them  though so she didnt have to.

[Hazy111]

p123 thought of you,

"The narcissist has to condition his human environment to refrain from expressing criticism and disapproval of him, or of his actions and decisions. He has to teach people around him that any form of disagreement, however mild and minor, throws him into frightful fits of temper and rage attacks and turn him into a constantly cantankerous and irascible person."
― Sam Vaknin, Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited - The Essay

[Andeza]

Hey p123, I've been thinking about this a bit. Have you asked your wife how your spending time with your dad instead of your kids and her for what seems like at least a day every other weekend makes her feel? I know you can probably guess, but the point is to have the conversation anyway to validate her feelings in this matter.

I know you see yourself as shielding her and your kids from your dad's nonsense, but I would theorize that that isn't really how it's working here. I think what they need is you, your time, your presence and love. But your dad is, in essence, stealing your time.

Your dad isn't going to let this go. He wants homage, and us women folk are only here to do things for the men folk  (extreme sarcasm there) He seems to see women as less than, no wonder he's divorced. I'm really really happy he doesn't have any daughters, but imagine how he'll start to treat your daughter once she's old enough to do laundry. 

[Adrianna]

There's a reason your daughter doesn't want to go over there. She knows she's not welcome.

If he asks about your wife tell him she wants nothing to do with you because 1. you're mean and 2, you put me through Hell. Therefore she won't he phoning you. Funny how that works.

I think we all have to face the hard truth that these people are usually emotionally abusive as well as often verbally abusive and sometimes even physically abusive. We want them to be cared for but often it's best to leave that to outsiders who are paid. I did not know what emotional abuse was until this year and it's been an eye opening experience. I have a degree in psychology from years ago and I didn't know it was happening to me.

[illogical]

Hi p123,

I would ask you, "What kind of relationship do you want with your dad, given the parameters?"

The parameters being--

*He's never going to change.
*He's never going to admit he's at fault.
*He's always going to feel entitled to your and your family's 100% attention.
*He's going to always try to push your buttons to get you riled and in a manipulative emotional state.
*He's always going to take, take, take, while expecting you to give, give, give.
*He's not going to give a rat's arse if you have mental/physical health problems.
*He's going to play The Victim to manipulate you and guilt you into compliance.
*He's going to relentlessly phone you and bombard you with his needs, in order to intimidate/guilt you into calling and visiting him.
*More of the same shit as above-- please read up on N to understand his disorder.

So rather than talk about his resistance and shortcomings, it might be wise to TAKE ACTION.  Limit Contact.  Read and study up on N so you understand his disorder and understand that logical approaches and responses don't work in his case.  One has to develop other, non-logical ways of dealing with people like your father.  See TOOLBOX for What To Do and What Not to Do.  What Not to Do includes not ENABLING his behavior by overlooking his bad behavior toward you and your family.

[WomanInterrupted]

All these posts are awesome, but the last three are REALLY are outstanding!

Your wife and kids need you more than your dad  does, he feels you're pulling away, and he's fighting tooth and nail to make sure that doesn't happen - he has no say in that.  YOU are the one with the power - and control - your dad doesn't like that, so he's starting to go off the rails with his demands, when *he is basically at your mercy, in whether you visit or call.* 

You said you call him every 3 days, and visit him every other weekend.  Dude, that's FAR too much calling.     I'd maybe call him ONCE a week, and the rest of the time, keep his number blocked.

He's expressing far too much interest in your wife - well she IS a nurse, and she can do laundry, dust, wash dishes, clean, you know...all that women's work my DH so kindly helps me with, because he lives here too - and yes, we *thank each other* for doing "menial" - but essential - jobs and tasks.   

I think that's why he's trying to get his hooks into your wife - he said it himself.  She hasn't DONE anything for him lately. 

And yes, your DD definitely doesn't feel welcome - nor will she want to be put to work, doing laundry for a cantankerous old man with views that went out in the 40's.   

Another thing your daughter is seeing?  You, being treated like a doormat, and with no respect. 

Kids tend to imitate what they see, so do you *really* want her to learn it's okay to treat you like crap, be disrespectful, ignore what you have to say, and expect to get her way? 

That's a terrible lesson for her to learn - and it's awful she has to endure a grandfather that clearly doesn't want her around. 

I *love* Illogical's list  and agree - it's time for you to take ACTION.   

There doesn't have to be conflict or confrontation - there can't be, if his number is blocked up until you're ready to do his shopping and call for the list.  He can try to grill you for answers - refuse to answer, and stick to the list.  If he won't tell you the items he needs, he gets nothing and you don't visit.   

It's that simple.  Write it down if you have to and keep it by the phone:  "Dad, if you won't tell me what you want, and would rather act like the Spanish Inquisition, this call is over.  Understood?" 

He either gives you the list, or you hang up and block him.

There's no shame in writing things down, as physical prompts.  I used to do it all the time, when I still felt like a shaky newborn boundary filly.   

If he gives you the list, shop at the store *near you* AND right before you get to your dad's put in your trusty headphones, and listen to something you like, while ignoring him as you put away groceries.   

He'll be trying to get your attention, any way he can - IGNORE HIM, put away groceries, and wave goodbye as you *leave.* 

This is the next best thing to the "Tired Nurse, At The End of A 14-Hour Shift" act that I used.  Yes?  No?  What'll it be?  Make up your mind.  I don't have all day.  You have 10 seconds to make a decision.  Can't decide (and would rather ramble on about 1945 or say something inflammatory about women's bodies...)?  It'll have to wait - I'm leaving. 

The headphones are an actual, physical *barrier*.  You can block him out, stick to the task of putting the groceries away, and skedaddle. 

Not much of a supply, was it?  That's why it's important to keep his number blocked.

As you devote less time to him and more time to your FOC, you'll discover how much you like being with them, and LOVE how the stress seems to have melted from your life, in the form of that third unwanted child neither of you ever asked for. 

You need to get used to saying, "No" - if you can't do that, a block is just as effective.   

But there WILL come a time you have to say, "No.  I can't do that." - and be *brave enough to say the words to somebody who is going to try to blame or shame you.* 

They're only words.  Remember that.  You dad knows no other way to manipulate others, to get his needs met - and will continue to do so.

Well, he can do it to somebody else - you're busy with your own life, and it's time to let him go, and leave him to his own designs.

You CAN do this.  You do have it within you to be strong enough to say, "No more of this" - and make it stick with boundaries made of titanium. 

You're like me - I had to grapple every single inch of my life back from first unBPD Didi, then unNPD Ray - Didi was more like an octopus.  It seemed like every time I'd pry one tentacle off me, another would appear - but I *was* able to do it, so by the time Ray popped up, he didn't know what the hell hit him, because I was a lean, mean boundary machine. 

You can get there, too - just have faith in yourself, read "Boundaries" and decide you and your FOC come FIRST, and there is *nothing* your father can do about it. 

Your FOC will thank you. 

[p123]

Your wife is  possible narc supply for him. Hes worrying hes losing his main and by sound of it only source. You. Trying to get you both back in the fold . 

My Dad was always encouraging me to make contact with my various nephews and nieces to enable his supply from them . (They lived close by) As in maybe Uncle Hazy will talk to them and encourage them to talk/visit him. Cunning and clever narc he is. I didnt as they werent in the slightest bothered talking to me or him. My sis would pass the buck on to them  though so she didnt have to.

But he rarely sees her anyway which is what I don't understand. Its not as if she does anything for him.
Its definitely a case of she SHOULD be doing this in his head. Sort of like a respect thing.

He checks his birthday cards. Anyone who hasn't sent him one  HE KNOWS....

[p123]

Hey p123, I've been thinking about this a bit. Have you asked your wife how your spending time with your dad instead of your kids and her for what seems like at least a day every other weekend makes her feel? I know you can probably guess, but the point is to have the conversation anyway to validate her feelings in this matter.

I know you see yourself as shielding her and your kids from your dad's nonsense, but I would theorize that that isn't really how it's working here. I think what they need is you, your time, your presence and love. But your dad is, in essence, stealing your time.

Your dad isn't going to let this go. He wants homage, and us women folk are only here to do things for the men folk  (extreme sarcasm there) He seems to see women as less than, no wonder he's divorced. I'm really really happy he doesn't have any daughters, but imagine how he'll start to treat your daughter once she's old enough to do laundry. 

Its usually half a day to be honest. I try to do it when its a convenient time for everyone else in the family (e.g. wife umpires for a netball team on a sunday afternoon). Or she works. She does have an issue with taking our daughter because she knows Dad ignores her. (To be honest, shes 6 so sits in the corner with her headphones on watchinf you tube on her tablet anyway so shes not "that" bothered).

But yeh wifes biggest issue is the way hes treated the kids in the past and how he treats them now i.e they are not important.

Of course, he "needs me" and the rest of my family "need to understand this". His words!

Yep his ideas towards women are strange. I used to think how unlucky he was to be divorced twice - now I know the truth! Hes also a big believer that "you don't tell women things - its best they don't know" . If it wasnt so sad it'd be funny.

I've been married 23 years we have no secrets . I keep nothing from my mrs. I do think sometimes I do need to not tell her some of the things he says though.

Daughter is only 6 so some time yet lol. To be honest, even if hes still around, shes not going to see him because they have no relationship.

[p123]

There's a reason your daughter doesn't want to go over there. She knows she's not welcome.

If he asks about your wife tell him she wants nothing to do with you because 1. you're mean and 2, you put me through Hell. Therefore she won't he phoning you. Funny how that works.

I think we all have to face the hard truth that these people are usually emotionally abusive as well as often verbally abusive and sometimes even physically abusive. We want them to be cared for but often it's best to leave that to outsiders who are paid. I did not know what emotional abuse was until this year and it's been an eye opening experience. I have a degree in psychology from years ago and I didn't know it was happening to me.

Spot on and I probably should do this.

But I;m a coward. If I do I'll get WEEKS if not MONTHS of "woe is me" "Im so sorry" etc. I just don't have the energy for it.

[p123]

Hi p123,

I would ask you, "What kind of relationship do you want with your dad, given the parameters?"

The parameters being--

*He's never going to change.
*He's never going to admit he's at fault.
*He's always going to feel entitled to your and your family's 100% attention.
*He's going to always try to push your buttons to get you riled and in a manipulative emotional state.
*He's always going to take, take, take, while expecting you to give, give, give.
*He's not going to give a rat's arse if you have mental/physical health problems.
*He's going to play The Victim to manipulate you and guilt you into compliance.
*He's going to relentlessly phone you and bombard you with his needs, in order to intimidate/guilt you into calling and visiting him.
*More of the same shit as above-- please read up on N to understand his disorder.

So rather than talk about his resistance and shortcomings, it might be wise to TAKE ACTION.  Limit Contact.  Read and study up on N so you understand his disorder and understand that logical approaches and responses don't work in his case.  One has to develop other, non-logical ways of dealing with people like your father.  See TOOLBOX for What To Do and What Not to Do.  What Not to Do includes not ENABLING his behavior by overlooking his bad behavior toward you and your family.

With those parameters (all correct) I'd like more peace and quite and less stress (that he causes), but, despite all this, I do want him to be OK.

At the moment, I don't have the courage or emotional strength to change things. I've changed things a little but its hard

[p123]

All these posts are awesome, but the last three are REALLY are outstanding!

Your wife and kids need you more than your dad  does, he feels you're pulling away, and he's fighting tooth and nail to make sure that doesn't happen - he has no say in that.  YOU are the one with the power - and control - your dad doesn't like that, so he's starting to go off the rails with his demands, when *he is basically at your mercy, in whether you visit or call.* 

You said you call him every 3 days, and visit him every other weekend.  Dude, that's FAR too much calling.     I'd maybe call him ONCE a week, and the rest of the time, keep his number blocked.

He's expressing far too much interest in your wife - well she IS a nurse, and she can do laundry, dust, wash dishes, clean, you know...all that women's work my DH so kindly helps me with, because he lives here too - and yes, we *thank each other* for doing "menial" - but essential - jobs and tasks.   

I think that's why he's trying to get his hooks into your wife - he said it himself.  She hasn't DONE anything for him lately. 

And yes, your DD definitely doesn't feel welcome - nor will she want to be put to work, doing laundry for a cantankerous old man with views that went out in the 40's.   

Another thing your daughter is seeing?  You, being treated like a doormat, and with no respect. 

Kids tend to imitate what they see, so do you *really* want her to learn it's okay to treat you like crap, be disrespectful, ignore what you have to say, and expect to get her way? 

That's a terrible lesson for her to learn - and it's awful she has to endure a grandfather that clearly doesn't want her around. 

I *love* Illogical's list  and agree - it's time for you to take ACTION.   

There doesn't have to be conflict or confrontation - there can't be, if his number is blocked up until you're ready to do his shopping and call for the list.  He can try to grill you for answers - refuse to answer, and stick to the list.  If he won't tell you the items he needs, he gets nothing and you don't visit.   

It's that simple.  Write it down if you have to and keep it by the phone:  "Dad, if you won't tell me what you want, and would rather act like the Spanish Inquisition, this call is over.  Understood?" 

He either gives you the list, or you hang up and block him.

There's no shame in writing things down, as physical prompts.  I used to do it all the time, when I still felt like a shaky newborn boundary filly.   

If he gives you the list, shop at the store *near you* AND right before you get to your dad's put in your trusty headphones, and listen to something you like, while ignoring him as you put away groceries.   

He'll be trying to get your attention, any way he can - IGNORE HIM, put away groceries, and wave goodbye as you *leave.* 

This is the next best thing to the "Tired Nurse, At The End of A 14-Hour Shift" act that I used.  Yes?  No?  What'll it be?  Make up your mind.  I don't have all day.  You have 10 seconds to make a decision.  Can't decide (and would rather ramble on about 1945 or say something inflammatory about women's bodies...)?  It'll have to wait - I'm leaving. 

The headphones are an actual, physical *barrier*.  You can block him out, stick to the task of putting the groceries away, and skedaddle. 

Not much of a supply, was it?  That's why it's important to keep his number blocked.

As you devote less time to him and more time to your FOC, you'll discover how much you like being with them, and LOVE how the stress seems to have melted from your life, in the form of that third unwanted child neither of you ever asked for. 

You need to get used to saying, "No" - if you can't do that, a block is just as effective.   

But there WILL come a time you have to say, "No.  I can't do that." - and be *brave enough to say the words to somebody who is going to try to blame or shame you.* 

They're only words.  Remember that.  You dad knows no other way to manipulate others, to get his needs met - and will continue to do so.

Well, he can do it to somebody else - you're busy with your own life, and it's time to let him go, and leave him to his own designs.

You CAN do this.  You do have it within you to be strong enough to say, "No more of this" - and make it stick with boundaries made of titanium. 

You're like me - I had to grapple every single inch of my life back from first unBPD Didi, then unNPD Ray - Didi was more like an octopus.  It seemed like every time I'd pry one tentacle off me, another would appear - but I *was* able to do it, so by the time Ray popped up, he didn't know what the hell hit him, because I was a lean, mean boundary machine. 

You can get there, too - just have faith in yourself, read "Boundaries" and decide you and your FOC come FIRST, and there is *nothing* your father can do about it. 

Your FOC will thank you. 

Excellent again WI. Yeh its all true.

Dad tends to get an idea in his head about how things SHOULD work ad then he expects everyone to fall into place. Women relatives SHOULD do his laundry, everyone SHOULD make a fuss of him on his birthday, time every weekend SHOULD be allocated to him.

A lot of his behaviour last few years has increased massively due to my brother and his new wife (aka florence nightingale).
- She does his laundry, my wife refuses when she SHOULD.
- Brother pops up after work for 20 mins, I refuse (25 miles not 1 mile like him) but I SHOULD.
- Brother tells his employer he can't work (he lies of course) because hes got to see his Dad - I cancel because I'm working. I SHOULD tell my client I can't do on call any more because Dad is so ill.

I am on call this weekend and hes hassling me about groceries. Again its scam. I've told him I'm on call and I get the usual response "well you need to start saying you can't do it". REALLY tempted to call him sunday pm and say "sorry in work, no groceries today but I'll get them delivered".

100% know the answer will be "oh its ok I'll manage, I don't want home delivery".
The he'll use this - "perhaps you can pop up after work in the next few days instead?"
Perhaps I should do it as a test! Im often very tempted to do this.

[Adrianna]

Your wife is  possible narc supply for him. Hes worrying hes losing his main and by sound of it only source. You. Trying to get you both back in the fold . 

My Dad was always encouraging me to make contact with my various nephews and nieces to enable his supply from them . (They lived close by) As in maybe Uncle Hazy will talk to them and encourage them to talk/visit him. Cunning and clever narc he is. I didnt as they werent in the slightest bothered talking to me or him. My sis would pass the buck on to them  though so she didnt have to.

But he rarely sees her anyway which is what I don't understand. Its not as if she does anything for him.
Its definitely a case of she SHOULD be doing this in his head. Sort of like a respect thing.

He checks his birthday cards. Anyone who hasn't sent him one  HE KNOWS....

Doesn't matter how often he sees her. My grandmother told me once I'm never allowed to divorce my husband because then he wouldn't do things for her anymore. He does almost nothing for her anyway. They cling to the hope that every person who interacts with them will do things for them. It's all they care about. The reason your father has no use for your daughter is because she's not old enough to do things for him. When she gets older he will try to recruit her too.

[Adrianna]

Regarding the groceries, I'd take the weekend off and have them delivered. You've gotta do something. I used to buy hers too every week and it was exhausting. Once my mother got sick and nana whined to the elder agency that I abandoned her, I got them to give her an extra day so now they do her shopping. It's been a weight lifted. 

You have to change something and this is a start.

Also I know you're not ready to hear it, and it's been said, but shield your children from this man. Your daughter is affected, whether or not you see it. She feels unloved by him. She doesn't want to go over. It's an awful thing for a child to experience and witness her father being abused by someone who is supposed to love him, he is your father after all, aren't fathers supposed to love their kids?  I can't stress enough how important this is. She needs to know the way he treats you is not love, is not acceptable, and should not be tolerated. You can tell tell her that's he's sick if that helps. Just let her know none of it is "normal".  And keep her away from him. Leave her with a babysitter for those few hours.  Break the cycle of dysfunction.

[p123]

Regarding the groceries, I'd take the weekend off and have them delivered. You've gotta do something. I used to buy hers too every week and it was exhausting. Once my mother got sick and nana whined to the elder agency that I abandoned her, I got them to give her an extra day so now they do her shopping. It's been a weight lifted. 

You have to change something and this is a start.

Also I know you're not ready to hear it, and it's been said, but shield your children from this man. Your daughter is affected, whether or not you see it. She feels unloved by him. She doesn't want to go over. It's an awful thing for a child to experience and witness her father being abused by someone who is supposed to love him, he is your father after all, aren't fathers supposed to love their kids?  I can't stress enough how important this is. She needs to know the way he treats you is not love, is not acceptable, and should not be tolerated. You can tell tell her that's he's sick if that helps. Just let her know none of it is "normal".  And keep her away from him. Leave her with a babysitter for those few hours.  Break the cycle of dysfunction.

Thing is shes only 6 - she doesn't know whats going on. To her, Grampy is just a man who she sees now and again, not bothered either way.

[Call Me Cordelia]

With those parameters (all correct) I'd like more peace and quite and less stress (that he causes), but, despite all this, I do want him to be OK.

At the moment, I don't have the courage or emotional strength to change things. I've changed things a little but its hard.

This is an unsolvable problem. Your father "being ok" is directly dependent on his ability to dump all of chaos and insecurity and toxicity into you. Either you continue to accept life as his personal garbage dump or accept that he will be miserable and that's not your problem. He's pretty miserable anyway from the sound of things. You're sacrificing yourself and FOC for nothing.

Agreed with others on keep your daughter the hell away from him. Exposing children to abuse is itself abusive. I was a worthless female grandchild at one time, and I have trauma from that as well as from my parents. Please don't do that to her. Six years old is plenty old enough to absorb the message of being in a corner and ignored.

You don't have the courage or emotional strength? Look at your wife and children and tell it to them. That you know what's going on, you are becoming aware every day of how harmful it is to all of you, how beyond help your father is, and you are choosing to prolong the pain anyway.

I have a husband kind of like you. Wanting to be good to everyone in an utterly impossible situation. It's an admirable sentiment under normal circumstances. But narcissists like your dad will just drain you as much as you let them into your life. His extreme "needs" will always be directly in conflict with every legitimate claim of anybody else. He is entitled to zero time, zero attention, zero respect. He's earned it by his constant abuse. You all have suffered enough. Please put your energy into rebuilding the relationships you've allowed your father to drain all these years.

[Poison Ivy]

I don't want to write much because I'm already sufficiently distressed by this thread.  But I will say that I agree with Adrianna, Call Me Cordelia, Woman Interrupted, Andeza, and Illogical.

I was "the wife." My children are the "grandchildren." We noticed and notice the behavior of the (former) father-in-law and grandfather. My children, now adults, know the difference between grandparents who are interested in them and those who aren't.  I'm nearly 100% certain they were aware of their paternal grandfather's lack of interest by age 6.

My marriage might have survived if my ex had been willing to make me and our children a higher priority than he made his father.  He wasn't. Nor was he willing to stand up to his dad and challenge his dad's poor treatment of me and our children. 

[p123]

With those parameters (all correct) I'd like more peace and quite and less stress (that he causes), but, despite all this, I do want him to be OK.

At the moment, I don't have the courage or emotional strength to change things. I've changed things a little but its hard.

This is an unsolvable problem. Your father "being ok" is directly dependent on his ability to dump all of chaos and insecurity and toxicity into you. Either you continue to accept life as his personal garbage dump or accept that he will be miserable and that's not your problem. He's pretty miserable anyway from the sound of things. You're sacrificing yourself and FOC for nothing.

Agreed with others on keep your daughter the hell away from him. Exposing children to abuse is itself abusive. I was a worthless female grandchild at one time, and I have trauma from that as well as from my parents. Please don't do that to her. Six years old is plenty old enough to absorb the message of being in a corner and ignored.

You don't have the courage or emotional strength? Look at your wife and children and tell it to them. That you know what's going on, you are becoming aware every day of how harmful it is to all of you, how beyond help your father is, and you are choosing to prolong the pain anyway.

I have a husband kind of like you. Wanting to be good to everyone in an utterly impossible situation. It's an admirable sentiment under normal circumstances. But narcissists like your dad will just drain you as much as you let them into your life. His extreme "needs" will always be directly in conflict with every legitimate claim of anybody else. He is entitled to zero time, zero attention, zero respect. He's earned it by his constant abuse. You all have suffered enough. Please put your energy into rebuilding the relationships you've allowed your father to drain all these years.

Thats just it. Dad wants everyone to have the same opinion as him. Thats the maim problem - he can't see how someone else can have a different opinion to him. Same with the relationship - he wants one sort of relationship with me - where I scoot around for him, I want another (not so much scooting).

I know what you mean but, I agree itd got to change but hes still my Dad.

[Andeza]

P123, take a glance through the top three abuses thread you started. Think you'll notice many of the people who have posted over there clearly remember things from before they were six. I know I have dysfunctional memories from before that.

One time, I couldn't have been five even, I Remember visiting my grandparents, and bipolar uncle and my cousins were there. I have a clear memory of bipolar uncle grabbing his oldest son, slamming him into the wall, and yelling inches from his face. I'm still scared of that uncle, and I will never leave him alone with my son.

If I were your six year old daughter, I know what I'd be thinking. Children are very good at pretending to ignore what they don't understand beyond knowing that the situation frightens them. Give her some credit, man, she's not a bump on a log. That little sponge brain is soaking up every last detail.