Hes still not happy that my wife hasn't phoned him - LET IT GO

[SunnyMeadow]

My marriage might have survived if my ex had been willing to make me and our children a higher priority than he made his father.  He wasn't. Nor was he willing to stand up to his dad and challenge his dad's poor treatment of me and our children. 

This is very eye opening for those of us who have given our PD parents higher priority than our spouse and children. It's painful but important to read.

[illogical]

...This is an unsolvable problem. Your father "being ok" is directly dependent on his ability to dump all of chaos and insecurity and toxicity into you. Either you continue to accept life as his personal garbage dump or accept that he will be miserable and that's not your problem. He's pretty miserable anyway from the sound of things. You're sacrificing yourself and FOC for nothing.

Hi p123,

You've very likely been groomed by your dad to be The Fixer.  Have you read about "parentification"?  It's when the roles of child and parent become reversed, i.e., the child is forced to take on the role of "parenting" the parent.  Many ACONs (Adult Children of Narcisissists) experience this.  I am included in that category.

But as Call Me Cordelia pointed out, your dad's "problems" are not fixable.  Not by you or anyone else.  As you have noted in your previous posts, he is getting worse.  And so will his demands as time goes on.  Basically you are in a situation where there are three basic options--

1) Do nothing.  Don't rock the boat.  Comply with his requests.    In other words, continue to enable his bad behavior.  This is the easiest path, because it is the one of least resistance.  The problem with this strategy is that nothing ever changes.  He continues to abuse you,  and you continue to allow him to abuse you.  The "problem" of your dad being your dad continues.  And because you now are aware he is abusing you, resentment starts to build.  At some point, the pot boils over and you and he have a row.  Then things settle and the Cycle of Abuse continues.  And continues and continues until the day he dies.

2) Start to set a few boundaries and push back on his abuse.  Limit contact.   This is a harder path than No. 1 above, because your dad won't like your resistance.  He feels he is entitled to your servitude.  You exist for his needs and his needs only.  It's been this way since you were a child and, in his mind, should be no different now that you are an adult.  But things have changed.  When you were a child you had little choice but to mind your dad.  Now you are an adult and it's up to you to break the Cycle of Abuse.  He won't change, but you can, in changing your responses to him.

3) Go No Contact.  This is the ultimate boundary.  Like No. 2, it's a harder path than No. 1 because you are declaring that a relationship with your dad is no longer sustainable.  I think it is a measure of last resort.  It doesn't look like you are ready for this.  The decision is difficult and we each have to reach that point in our own time and in our own way, if ever.

So by process of elimination, No. 2 is really your only choice here.  Start setting boundaries in little steps.  If you call him every day, make it every other day.  If you call him every other day, make it every three days.  Don't automatically comply with his every request.  Start saying "No" and don't give him any excuses for your opinion. 

It is scary when one first starts putting up boundaries.  But the only way out of this maze is to go through it.  And once you start saying "No" to your father, I promise you it will get easier to say "No".    

You can still care about your dad.  You can still love your dad.  You can still want him to be "okay", if you mean that his basic needs are met.  But you can engineer that from afar.  You don't have to be at his beck and call.  As I stated in another post, there is no convenient time to start trying to change this dysfunctional dynamic.  But the longer you wait, the longer you procrastinate, the more resentment will likely build on your part.  I got to the point where my mental state started affecting my physical state.  Please don't let things get to that point.  Reach down inside yourself, grab hold of that courage that is there, and tell yourself you aren't going to put up with your father's crap for one more day.  We're with you here!

[Poison Ivy]

Great post, illogical.

[Fiasco]

Six years old is plenty old enough to absorb the message of being in a corner and ignored.

You don't have the courage or emotional strength? Look at your wife and children and tell it to them. That you know what's going on, you are becoming aware every day of how harmful it is to all of you, how beyond help your father is, and you are choosing to prolong the pain anyway.

Most of us in this forum are here because we were abused and/or neglected as kids and the adults who were supposed to keep us safe either chose not to or refused to put in the work because it was too hard.  We're still mad about it all these years later. Don't pass that legacy on, have the courage to break the chain. We're rooting for you.

[Adrianna]

I agree with illogical. Seriously reducing contact with him is your only option. It doesn't mean you don't love your dad. You can love him but you have to realize that the stress of this will eat you alive if you let it. It will also destroy your marriage and damage your children's sense of self and future mental well-being. You don't want your daughter in therapy at 48 like me doing inner child work to undo the damage. As others have said, she knows more than you want to admit.

To give you a sense of this, I used to think,  how do I end this pain, these feelings of constant guilt, hopelessness, endless demands, since she's my grandmother and I can't get away from her? What I didn't realize at the time was 1. I can get away from her and 2. it's actually emotional abuse.

There was always an underlying sentiment of :

I'm not good enough. Nothing I do is enough. I'm not trying hard enough. I'm selfish for saying no. It's my job to make her happy. If I spent more time with her maybe she'd be nicer to me. If I was a better person, I'd want to spend time with her.

This was all distorted codependent thinking. I was groomed to be her fixer. I was codependent. I saw no value in myself apart from what I could do for others. I was here to parent her while expecting nothing in return. Like already mentioned, parentification is not unusual when dealing with narcissists. We are there to soothe their needs and provide narcissistic supply. They want your emotional support but give you none.

She might as well have just come out and said to me over my entire life: "You're no good Adrianna."

These pd narcissists can push you to the point of poor physical and mental health without so much as a blink of an eye. No remorse for what they put you through. No care for your feelings. It's truly astounding.

I would suggest you read up on emotional abuse. My grandmother has done manipulation, guilt trips, lying for attention, triangulation, gaslighting, shaming and belittling.  No wonder I felt awful around her. Who enjoys being abused?

I had to severely limit my contact with her. I talked to her just about every day for ten years, for a good half hour listening to her whine about how awful her day was while I was tired after a full day at work, having to feel like I was required to pick up the phone, never really wanting to, but doing it out of guilt and obligation. She had no concern for me however as to whether or not I even wanted to talk to her!  Which I most days did not! 

I now see her once a week and call her one other time a week. The messages are reduced but I still get voicemails like this:

"Adrianna, it's been an awful day, I don't think I'm going to make it, I think this is it. Call me as soon as you get in."

Delete
No call back

Talk to her a few days later and she doesn't even remember what she was upset about. She's been "dying" for ten years. She's 97.

I'm not interested in being an audience to her self inflicted drama. Our conversations are pretty quick now and my visits are short too. She fought me on this, didn't like it, guilt trips galore:

You don't come down as much
You don't call me as much
You don't care about me
You have no sympathy for me!

Translate: you aren't Being a good servant anymore.

He will fight you on setting boundaries and saying no. Let him. They do get over it and they will get their needs met by someone else. Yeah it's hard on you but it's going to be harder longterm if you don't do this.

Also realize that he will whine to anyone about you, that you don't do enough, that you don't care. People eventually see through this. My grandmother had a brief stay in hospital a few months ago (for nothing of course) and she told them she had "no family"!  She said it again to a social worker recently while I stood outside the hospital room. If we aren't serving their needs satisfactorily we may as well not exist.

I am in regular contact with her doctors office,  case manager, 2 social workers, physical therapists. Etc. I do a lot of behind the scenes work which she will never appreciate. So I help but from a distance. You can do the same.

[WomanInterrupted]

I agree -  cutting down on visiting/calling, saying, "No" and having groceries delivered doesn't mean you don't love your dad.  You ARE providing for him - but not in the way he expects, which, as Adrianna pointed out, is *never going to be good enough.*   

You could visit him, every single day, for 3 hours and he'd STILL complain you never visit - while you're sitting right there, no less! 

You try to explain, "Dad...I HAVE visited, every single day - and I'm here NOW..." - but nope! 

One day, you picked up a tissue off the floor, the next you moved some chairs for him, the day after that you ran a few errands before you got there, the day after that you closed some drapes and they day after that, you took out his trash, and today you brought the bins in - so they are NOT visits because *you worked.*   

Sad but true - you do *one* iota of work, and it's no longer a visit.  You came to work and NEVER visit - and it'll just about make your blood boil, because *you can't win* and you're NEVER good enough.

Nothing you do is ever going to be good enough for the CHILD who has latched on to your leg, and won't stop screaming that you HAVE to pay attention to him and he comes first in your life. 

You can see to your dad's needs from *afar* - like Adrianna suggested. 

It doesn't mean you love him less - it just means that *you've decided you and your FOC matter MORE than his needs* - which ARE being met, but not in a way he likes, because he doesn't get to order you around, nit-pick your decisions and life choices, and verbally abuse you.

If he needs a supply, he'll find others to take your place - and as he ages, it may mean setting up housekeeping services for him, or having aides come in (which he'll hate, but as long as they answer to YOU, he can't fire them). 

Or, who knows?  His doctor might advise he move into a care home - which he'll expect to be YOUR home, but by stepping back, stepping out of the picture, letting others take up the slack, and having unshakable boundaries, he might realize moving into yours isn't in the cards, as much as he guilts you about it.

A part of the reason to have strong boundaries *now* is for what comes later - when he can't be alone in his own home, because he's medically non-compliant and danger to himself.   

If you're strong now, and start pushing back with boundaries, what comes later won't seem that much more difficult - but if you leave it, and suddenly, he announces he's moving in with you, and you can't stand up to him - I don't think your wife and kids will take very kindly to that. 

You really don't want your father to damage your marriage - or be the cause of a rift that can't be repaired.

I was lucky in that DH and I made a pact about 20 years ago - we agreed NONE of our parents were ever going to live with us, OR all of them could, as long as we moved out, in the dead of night. 

I want you to ask yourself a very honest question:  Do you have the ability to tell your father, "No" if he announced he had to move in with you tomorrow?

If you said no - you *really* need to invest some time into yourself, and do some serious work in regard to boundaries.  You might also want to read up on parentification and codependency, especially the part about enabling others to continue to make lousy decisions.

I wanted to mention your 6-year-old DD.  I remember *plenty* of garbage that happened when I was younger than 6, perpetrated not only by unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, but *both* sets of PD grandparents.     (Yeah - lucky me.  I was SURROUNDED!    )

Your daughter is learning that women are only good for doing laundry and "women's work" - and racial slurs, IIRC - that shit has got to STOP because it will stay in her head and confuse the living hell out of her - everybody else says these things, but my grandpa says this, and my dad defers to him, so maybe grandpa is right, and women are only good for laundry, and the people down the street are (insert slurs here), even though they seem nice, and I like them.   

That's just only a fraction of the mess your DD is absorbing - she's learning it's okay to be treated badly by old people, it's okay to be ignored, it's okay to be dragged into situations she really doesn't want to be in, and the WORST thing she can ever learn:  My father won't protect me.  He keeps bringing me here, knowing I'll be ignored and treated like I don't matter.  I don't feel welcome, and my dad doesn't do anything about it.  I think he's using me as an excuse to leave, but I don't like it. 

Which, I'm sad to say, is *exactly* what you are doing:   you're hiding behind a little girl, and using her as a means to leave sooner, instead of *putting your foot down* and saying, "Dad.  I'm leaving.  About visiting tomorrow - I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything." 

Then you block his number because that's what you can do! 

I'm not trying to jump all over your shit - I'm pointing out this is the damage you're unwittingly doing to your DD.  She'll remember - she may not remember the details of Disneyworld, but she WILL remember how awkward, unwanted and uncomfortable she felt at her grandfather's house, while you did nothing about it. 

Now that you know about it, you can do something - and make changes.     Like *not going to your dad's while you have the kids* - and farming out his needs to others. 

You don't tell him you have the kids - you just call the grocery store, place the order, let them be delivered, and keep your dad's number blocked.    

He's only going to call you to complain, so why bother listening to it, when you've already heard it a thousand times?   

Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean you love him less - it means you've decided your NEED to *protect yourself and the kids* outweighs that love, and takes priority.

[p123]

...This is an unsolvable problem. Your father "being ok" is directly dependent on his ability to dump all of chaos and insecurity and toxicity into you. Either you continue to accept life as his personal garbage dump or accept that he will be miserable and that's not your problem. He's pretty miserable anyway from the sound of things. You're sacrificing yourself and FOC for nothing.

Hi p123,

You've very likely been groomed by your dad to be The Fixer.  Have you read about "parentification"?  It's when the roles of child and parent become reversed, i.e., the child is forced to take on the role of "parenting" the parent.  Many ACONs (Adult Children of Narcisissists) experience this.  I am included in that category.

But as Call Me Cordelia pointed out, your dad's "problems" are not fixable.  Not by you or anyone else.  As you have noted in your previous posts, he is getting worse.  And so will his demands as time goes on.  Basically you are in a situation where there are three basic options--

1) Do nothing.  Don't rock the boat.  Comply with his requests.    In other words, continue to enable his bad behavior.  This is the easiest path, because it is the one of least resistance.  The problem with this strategy is that nothing ever changes.  He continues to abuse you,  and you continue to allow him to abuse you.  The "problem" of your dad being your dad continues.  And because you now are aware he is abusing you, resentment starts to build.  At some point, the pot boils over and you and he have a row.  Then things settle and the Cycle of Abuse continues.  And continues and continues until the day he dies.

2) Start to set a few boundaries and push back on his abuse.  Limit contact.   This is a harder path than No. 1 above, because your dad won't like your resistance.  He feels he is entitled to your servitude.  You exist for his needs and his needs only.  It's been this way since you were a child and, in his mind, should be no different now that you are an adult.  But things have changed.  When you were a child you had little choice but to mind your dad.  Now you are an adult and it's up to you to break the Cycle of Abuse.  He won't change, but you can, in changing your responses to him.

3) Go No Contact.  This is the ultimate boundary.  Like No. 2, it's a harder path than No. 1 because you are declaring that a relationship with your dad is no longer sustainable.  I think it is a measure of last resort.  It doesn't look like you are ready for this.  The decision is difficult and we each have to reach that point in our own time and in our own way, if ever.

So by process of elimination, No. 2 is really your only choice here.  Start setting boundaries in little steps.  If you call him every day, make it every other day.  If you call him every other day, make it every three days.  Don't automatically comply with his every request.  Start saying "No" and don't give him any excuses for your opinion. 

It is scary when one first starts putting up boundaries.  But the only way out of this maze is to go through it.  And once you start saying "No" to your father, I promise you it will get easier to say "No".    

You can still care about your dad.  You can still love your dad.  You can still want him to be "okay", if you mean that his basic needs are met.  But you can engineer that from afar.  You don't have to be at his beck and call.  As I stated in another post, there is no convenient time to start trying to change this dysfunctional dynamic.  But the longer you wait, the longer you procrastinate, the more resentment will likely build on your part.  I got to the point where my mental state started affecting my physical state.  Please don't let things get to that point.  Reach down inside yourself, grab hold of that courage that is there, and tell yourself you aren't going to put up with your father's crap for one more day.  We're with you here!

Thanks. Great post.

At the moment I think I've realised (1) and working towards (2) ....

[p123]

WI - You're post got me thinking....

Yes he has "needs" as he gets older, he also has a lot of "wants" that he thinks are needs. Thinking about it though - I've ALWAYS done my best to sort out his needs as best I can. I've offered solutions.

I'm realising that what he thinks are needs are just him wanting it done a certain way. i.e. need shopping but won;t accept an alternative solution.

Sometimes I get that he likes me to visit. I've never NOT visited. BUT he seems so obsessed that I visit when he wants. Its not as if he's got no-one - he sees his friends, once or twice a week, etc. so he doesn't NEED me to visit all the time.

I honestly think a lot of his thinking is because hes thinks things SHOULD be like this. i.e. son should visit his dad quite often, doaugher in law should phone on his birthday.

But yes Im going to reduce the times I take my daughter now. Theres a lovely park near where he lives and daughter LOVES it there. If we go there, then daughter wants to go. So I've said to Dad "ok we're going for a walk down to the park, you can come on your scooter". He started off saying no so I'd drop his groceries, go to the park, come back then say "gotta go now". He worked that one out so now he comes!

Still moans that he wants to go back (I say tough luck, daughter is playing a minute). you can see it winds him up. Because its not all 100% attention for him.

[Adrianna]

I don't think you are ready to hear what we are trying to tell you. 

I struggled at first too. Made excuses for her behavior. Dealt with constant guilt.

There's a book called Codependent No More. That was my starting place. I suggest you read it to understand yourself better. Yours is the classic npd/codependent dynamic.

Without researching personality disorders and how they work, you won't be able to make sense of any of this. You'll continue to be bewildered at every turn as I have been most of my life with them. Even now I know her disorder and I'm still amazed at the lengths she will go to for attention.  It took me developing a close friendship with one to really put the pieces together about how they think.

[SunnyMeadow]

I don't think you are ready to hear what we are trying to tell you. 

I struggled at first too. Made excuses for her behavior. Dealt with constant guilt. 

I agree, I don't think p123 is ready either.

I still struggle with guilt and am working on it each day. This stuff is hard! I was groomed to worry about and help my mother. Her anger and push back because I'm not doing it anymore is difficult - but so worth it!

We understand p123. It's so much easier and less stressful to keep doing what we've been doing, catering to the PD parent. I feel more grown up now that I'm not attached at the hip to my mother. The comment by PoisonIvy about her marriage not surviving was a true eye opener for me. I rarely think how dealing with this enmeshed life with my disordered mother has affected my marriage, my husband and children but it had to have been extremely difficult for then...not just me. They are just now mentioning things about different events dealing with her. It makes me sad.

[Andeza]

Before I came Out of the FOG my husband was suffering. Every time I talked in the phone with my mom I was verbally combative toward him. He's the freaking sweetest guy ever and didn't deserve that. Now that we're super low contact, things have drastically improved. We're still working on stuff, but it's been getting better.

[WomanInterrupted]

I agree that you're not ready, and this sentence makes it crystal clear:

I know what you mean but, I agree itd got to change but hes still my Dad.

That's the O and G in FOG:  obligation and guilt.

The truth is, you're not *obligated* to do a thing.  We are ALL responsible for our own lives - including your father. 

He doesn't WANT to be, though, and would rather make YOU responsible, while  retaining total control of the situation through his rules, demands and verbal abuse. 

I used to struggle with guilt, too.  I'd been conditioned to think my poor old mommy is so sick and so sad, and can't take care of herself.  Nobody thinks about what she wants or needs.  She's so helpless, she can't even order her own food, or send it back when there's something wrong with it.  She NEEDS me to take care of her, because she's so helpless! 

The first time I rebelled against that programming, I felt like I was having a day-long anxiety attack, plus an out-of-body experience!  I threw myself into scrubbing kitchen cabinets (for the sake of keeping myself occupied  ) and kept telling myself, over and over, that I wasn't doing anything wrong.  If Didi wanted to visit Ray in the hospital, she could take a cab - she just didn't WANT to, and that wasn't my fault.

I am NOT a ride service - and especially not an *on demand* ride service.  And I am NOT responsible for Didi's moods or well-being.   

When you're ready to come Out of the FOG - or are starting to come out of it - you'll realize that your dad WILL get angry at any perceived act of disobedience (not getting what he wants, when he wants it), and you'll be OKAY with that, because you are NOT responsible for his moods - and you're not putting up boundaries to intentionally piss him off. 

You're putting up boundaries to wrestle your life back from under his thumb. 

When you're coming Out of the FOG and he  says he needs groceries, and demands you visit, you'll be able to tell him you'll see what you can do (Medium Chill), and have to go.   

You then phone the grocery store by him and give them the order, then block your dad's number so you don't have to hear it. 

And yes, you'll feel pangs of guilt, at first.   You'll feel like a failure as a son.  You'll feel like it was a shitty thing to do, because you COULD have gone to the store, but just didn't want to.

As time goes on, you begin to realize that just because you COULD have, doesn't mean you SHOULD, because you're *enabling* him - and you're not a failure as a son - he's a failure as an ADULT and you are *no longer covering for him.*

You'll *say* your boundary to yourself - and just DO it. 

I'm not visiting, and if he gets angry, that's not my fault.

I'm having his groceries delivered, and if  gets angry, that's not my fault.

I'm blocking his number this week, and if he needs anything, he'll figure it out.  He's not alone, on an ice floe.  He's got a phone that dials other numbers than mine and he'll be FINE.

That's how your thinking will change - you'll go from fear, obligation and guilt to *rolling your eyes* when he has a temper tantrum because it's just so damned typical, will never change, and the only thing you can do is put up *more* boundaries if he starts upping the ante (playing more ridiculous PD games).

And you'll feel *okay* about doing that, knowing you're doing *nothing wrong.*   

[illogical]

Hi p123,

I think you are ready for change or you wouldn't be on this website.  You know "something is wrong with this picture" and want a better life.

You are struggling with "trying to be there" for your dad and, at the same time, not compromising your integrity. 

It's very, very difficult.  I remember when I first felt those pangs of "something is wrong with this picture" with my NM.  I Googled on "toxic people" and finally arrived at websites such as this one.

So I believe that you truly know something is wrong and want to change the dynamic.  But it's hard.  One has to swallow the bitter pill that our parents don't have our best interests at heart-- only their interests, which preclude ours.  That's tough!!!

For me, it came down to a survival instinct.  It was either me or my NM.  So, in the end, I chose ME.  She was going to drain me dry.  As Adrianna points out, Ns only care about themselves and see you as useful or not.  As long as you are useful, you're tolerated.  If you're not, you're discarded.

When your stress levels get to the point where it starts affecting your health, it's time to make changes.  This is a support forum, so we want to support you no matter your thinking here, but at the same time we (who have been in the trenches) know that pain lies ahead if you don't do something to stop the Cycle of Abuse.

Others have posted that they don't think you should expose your DD to your NF.  It appears you don't see him as a "threat" to her.  You might benefit from journaling your experiences with your father.  Writing down your feelings when you visit him and his reactions to your visit.  In a sense, your posts here serve as a journal, but you might want to get more detailed in a personal journal.

The bottom line is that we can't tell you what to do.  We can only relate our stories of the pain we have endured.  So it's up to you to decide what level of contact you want with your father.  You said in your last post to me that you are moving toward Limited Contact.  I think that's a positive thing.

The fact that you still want to take your daughter over to your dad's house is concerning, given that he ignores her.  Maybe he's not a threat in the sense of "preying" on her in an inappropriate way, but he is toxic, nonetheless.  And so it's not really healthy to subject your daughter to his influence.

Please don't get caught up in thinking that because you are telling him "No" for Xmas, that it's okay, and even necessary, to placate him until then.  He absolutely won't care about all you have done for him.  And yes, he will raise holy hell that you aren't inviting him for Christmas.  So better to start telling him "No" NOW, than wait for the inevitable row that will surely ensue at Xmas.

You are unfortunate to have drawn the "short straw" of a PD parent.  We on this forum know how that feels.  Please don't take our negative comments personally.  We are truly trying to help you navigate this dysfunctional maze you find yourself in.  We are truly trying to help you navigate Out of the FOG!

[Psuedonym]

I'm always coming along with the links and here I am with a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxVP8cBPL0M. My uBPD M (who I call Negatron) is very, very similar to your father. (You can read all about it if you're bored.) I've been NC with her for 9 months and Les Carter has almost single handedly helped me keep my sanity. I could have picked any of his videos, they're all full of wisdom and he has a very comforting way of letting you know it ain't you.

One thing I wanted to point out is in regards to another post about having 3 options: 1) do nothing, 2) set boundaries, and 3) go NC. If your dad is as much like Negatron as he sounds, No 2 can quickly escalate into No. 3, as they simply will not accept boundaries of any sort. That is what it is. I think one thing that's important to realize that you have both more and less control than you think you do. You have more control over your life than you think, and less over your dad's than you think. You not only aren't responsible for making him happy, you don't have the ability to do that. It's sort of freeing to realize that. Anyway, I'd watch some Les and let his wisdom sink in. I hope he helps you the way he's helped me.

[Adrianna]

I agree with pseudonym. Dr. Les Carter is really down to earth, kind, and knowledgeable about narcissism. I've watched most if not all of his videos. It's a journey to really wrap your head around the topic of narcissism. I've been studying for quite a while and am still in the process of fully accepting how truly self centered they are. I used to say they DON'T care about other people but I'm moving now towards they CAN'T care about other people. They don't have the ability to think outside themselves. Their disorder prevents it.

I am an example of someone who is low contact and I'm telling you it's not easy. She still gets me irritated. I'm human. The tricks she plays, the drama, the unnecessary Er visits, the way she tells everyone I don't do enough for her, the way she basically demands all the attention on herself. The manipulation tactics are beyond belief. She sadly lies like she breathes and I do not believe half of what she says anymore. My grandmother has been stirring up trouble probably her entire adult life from what I've learned through the extended family. She enjoys it. She tells everyone who will listen that she wants to die and has been for years.  She has threatened suicide when she doesn't get her way or is denied attention, however telling me in the past she would never do it because she doesn't want to burn in Hell. I take suicide threats seriously however she's been doing this for a decade. She pulled the ultimate guilt trip on me once, when I was trying to assert boundaries and demand better treatment of her, that "if you come over here and find me dead on the floor, you know whose fault that will be."  They will fight you on boundaries. It took a long time for her to accept that I'm not running down there for every crisis, nor answering every phone call, not going to the store a second time when I've already gone once. Nana enjoys watching me do things for her. Our visits now, as WI stated, aren't visits at all. It's her watching someone perform for her benefit, it's the only joy she seems to get now is watching servants serve her. No desire to connect to anyone, no real interest in people, just wants to know who is coming, when, and what are they going to do for her. 

I totally understand why so many children of narcissists go no contact. Even low contact is exhausting. She had taught me well though. With her son, my father, I have extremely limited contact and have firm boundaries. His treatment of me throughout my life has made it such that I do not want to be around him at all. I refuse to do for him what I have done in the past with his mother.

There really is no peace with them. I had no choice but to reduce contact. It was either her or me. I see that now. She would drain the life out of me without so much as a second thought.  All the kindness, the compassion, the sympathy, the care I have had for her over the years has been really for nothing since in her mind, unless I'm performing as expected at this very moment, I may as well have never done anything, and am no good.  What I'm trying to say is your dad isn't going to value you so you have to value yourself.

[p123]

Thanks all - please keep telling me! I know it sounds like Im not listening but I am honestly, just finding it so tough.

It think it was illogical (and a few others) who said it appeared I knew something was wrong but not ready yet to change it.

I'd agreed there. I've now decided there is definitely something wrong, took me years but I know for sure now.
Not ready - probably right. I've made some small changes over the last few years - stopped xmas day, less visits now, don't answer my phone etc but I know I should be doing more.

I know its my fault. I'm the sort of person who hates conflict and gets along with everyone. Whereas I get really annoyed and frustrated with him it scares me that, if and when, I put down more boundaries, its going to get worse. At the moment, I've got to the point where I can ignore him for a few days, and pretty much visit once every two weeks. Yes I've probably got some sort of personality disorder too! :-)

(On a serious note, having had depression/anxiety problems. Mostly better these days but was quite bad in the past. I think that affects me too)

BUT, heres what goes through my mind:-

1. If put down a few boundaries, but keep him happy the rest of the time, then it'll be manageable.
2. If I escalate things, its going to be a massive fight that is going to be VERY stressful for me. I dread to think to what level he will escalate this.
3. Is he that bad? Or am I being over critical of him and should I be more tolerant of an elderly parent? Is dementia playing a part here? (Im not a religious person really but if he passed away in 6 months time and I'd blocked him for those months, how would I feel for the rest of my life?)

I think I'm in the middle at the moment. Hes still treats me badly, I get away from doing a lot of things now, its all talk with him, and my wife, even though she can't stand him doesn't see him so its not an issue.

I think what hits home the most though is when others describe what happened with them. WI I think mentioned about her mother wanting her to give her a ride but couldnt be bothered to get a cab. Someone else mentioned they're sure their family member took pleasure in watching someone do things for her. Dad is EXACTLY like that - its spooky.

[SunnyMeadow]

Watching videos on narcissism, mainly on YouTube has been incredibly helpful for me. Here's a few I like:

Dr Les Carter
The Little Shaman - love her!
Richard Grannon
We Need to Talk with Kris Godinez
Ross Rosenberg
Melanie Tonia Evans https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU5rnqjJi9U <--- Narcissistic Fathers episode
(her episode on Narcissist Mothers really blew me away, it was as if she knew my mother!

I hope you find one of these people and style of video that appeals to you. I binge watch at night and even listen to them while driving by myself.

[SunnyMeadow]

I know its my fault. I'm the sort of person who hates conflict and gets along with everyone. Whereas I get really annoyed and frustrated with him it scares me that, if and when, I put down more boundaries, its going to get worse. At the moment, I've got to the point where I can ignore him for a few days, and pretty much visit once every two weeks. Yes I've probably got some sort of personality disorder too! :-)

Sounds like we could be brother and sister!    I'm the easy going, nice girl who gets deeply frustrated with my mom.

I don't think anything is your fault. You are living life the way that has worked in the past. You know how much to do and when you can back off. I do the same. The trouble is our parents are increasing how much they need from us because they can feel we're backing away. Plus they are getting old and have always assumed we'd be living with them to help shuffle them from room to room because they are just that special  and it's our duty as their children.

(On a serious note, having had depression/anxiety problems. Mostly better these days but was quite bad in the past. I think that affects me too)
BUT, heres what goes through my mind:-
1. If put down a few boundaries, but keep him happy the rest of the time, then it'll be manageable.
2. If I escalate things, its going to be a massive fight that is going to be VERY stressful for me. I dread to think to what level he will escalate this.
3. Is he that bad? Or am I being over critical of him and should I be more tolerant of an elderly parent? Is dementia playing a part here? (Im not a religious person really but if he passed away in 6 months time and I'd blocked him for those months, how would I feel for the rest of my life?)

Same, same and same, including anxiety.    You are just starting this journey and it's a tough one. I was NC with my mom but started talking to her again due to her blackmail tactics and my incredible guilt. She's old, she's my mom! But I've have severely lessened contact with her and my life is so much better. Reading here, watching videos and reading books have helped open my eyes and I'm still at a combination of all three of your points above.

All of this takes time to absorb. I wish I had the strength of those here who really and truly went NC but I'm not there yet. That's ok for me right now. I keep her at arm's length and do what I have to do in order to manage my anxiety.

[Psuedonym]

Hey p123,

I think you can see from the number of replies to your post that it resonates with pretty much everybody on this board, and that's because everybody has been where you are. One thing I would suggest is go back and look at your last reply and you'll see that what you habitually do is blame yourself. You are not strong enough. You are a coward. You are weak. A) no you aren't! B) Who do you think put those ideas in your head and taught you to think about yourself that way? Your anxiety and depression aren't just things that materialized out of thin air, they are a direct result of being raised by someone with a PD. The rationalization that you can control the situation (hint: you can't actually control his moods) and that you have to stick it out regardless of the consequences are also consequences. If you're going to start with one thing, I would start by being kinder to yourself. Stop picking on yourself so much and see what happens. Treat yourself like you'd treat a good friend, and give yourself a break.

[lkdrymom]

I agree, you are here because you want to change but just aren't ready yet.  I think I gave similar advice to Adrianna a few years ago ....you are on the edge of a cliff....you know you have to jump but you are scared ...you have to just get to the point where you are ready to jump or the the person you are trying to escape from actually pushes you. One way or another you have to get over that cliff.

Why not tell your father the truth.....you wife just doesn't like him. Who cares about the fall out.  What could he possible do to you?

You are kidding yourself if you think your daughter doesn't see what is going on. When I was a kid it was painfully obvious that my grandmother and my uncle's family were my father's priority.  Those things stick with you. He did a couple crappy things to me as an adult that really sealed our relationship...or lack of one.  But he would never know that. He thinks he is father of the year  (maybe to my cousins but certainly not to me).  When my son was 9 my father and cousin started teasing him until he locked himself in the bathroom.  They did that to me as a kid too but I had no one to protect me. It is a never ending cycle until SOMEONE ends it.  I went Full Metal Momma Bear on my father. I screamed at him and used a lot of foul language to get my point across. I told him that if the  boy never wanted anything to do with him again I would fully support that.  For once it got through to him.

I know you feel obligated to your dad.  I do to.  That doesn't mean  I am jumping every time he snaps his fingers.  I got a lot of phone calls saying I had to come right away.  I learned to put him off for a few days even if I was available. I had to retrain him. He still pushed but I said no or at least not right now.  I really think you should try a home delivery just once.

I don;t have a close relationship with my father because of the way he was during my childhood. Now that everyone he held in such high regard is no longer around, now I am important.  I make sure he is taken care of but it isn't me doing most of the caring.  When he lived on his own the visits were once every other week.  He would try to get me there more and at times he was successful.  Yet it was never enough.  Like WI said......it doesn't count as a "VISIT" if you do one thing of work for them.  He told my daughter I never visit and she pointed out I was there all the time. His response was "But she is always DOING things, not visiting"

Realize it will be never enough.  Realize he is incapable of being happy or satisfied. Figure out what you are willing to do and only do that.  I know this is hard for you but we have all been there.  I did in fact spend two years running myself ragged for my father before I realized he was milking it and it would never be enough for him (it started after he had surgery and truly needed my help.....he just never wanted to go back to being self sufficient).