Convinced hes "so ill" - no-one can tell him different

[p123]

Emergency services refuse to come out any more.
GP refuses home visits.
His knee consultant refuses to offer any more treatment.
In the past I've had multiple "chest pain, can't breathe" fake visits.

He recently banged his knee. Went to hospital (yes really!). They sent him home.
After care visit from the hospital - nope he's fine.
Social Services - nope he's got everything he needs he's fine.

Not helped by the fact that Dad often does not even listen to the doctors and take the medication they give him.
He really is the worlds worst for getting old. He won't listen to anyone or accept that he's getting old.

One day he's telling me he's in so much pain. Next day he's listening to his stupid friends telling him hes going to get addicted to painkillers and stops taking them. I think then, its not that bad is it?
Hes got hayfever. (as have I - its not nice but hey). I remember last year him moaning so much he thought he was dying - OF HAYFEVER. Which speaks volumes.

Hes pushed away friends and family because of his moaning.

I'm trying to grey rock. I can't help him. I'm not a doctor as I keep telling him.
I know hes never going to change but the constant calls and moaning.....

Any other suggestions?

[Boat Babe]

If it was your best mate and HIS dad who was pulling all this bollox, what would you advise your friend?

Insert answer here ( ........... )

Now follow your own advice! 

Should there be a "but" that is your obstacle. Sit with your "but" and explore it with loving curiosity.  It will lead you to an aspect of Fear, Obligation and/or Guilt that you have yet to tackle.

Deep breaths.

[Andeza]

I am only here to second Boat Babe's excellent advice!

[moglow]

 
And you/we gotta work harder on those gray rock skills. He's no doubt bored, lonely, tired etc - and none of those are yours to fix. You have your own bored lonely tired times, just as everyone else. We deal with it as it comes. I'm not entirely a cold hearted hannah and I get he feels how he feels but seriously, none of this is new, not for him or anyone else.

Gray rock: My knee hurts so much! I'm sorry to hear that. I need to go to the hooooooospital! I'm sorry to hear that. Meds aren't helping! You should talk to your doctor about that. My friend said I should...! Well. You should talk to your doctor about that. I talked to the doctor and they say to take xyz med! I'm sorry to hear that. This hayfever is awful! Yes it is.

Short. Polite. Flat. Informative where appropriate. There's literally nothing you can do, and the daily "discussions" serve no one. If I may, why are there still daily conversations like this? You do know that just because he calls doesn't mean you have to answer. Limit the information you give him about your life and family, what you're doing, where you're going, why you don't have time, etc. Don't provide ammunition for comeback or complaints of how "you should ..." Tell him when you will call or visit then do that - in the meantime, live your life with your family. He's not interested in them? Fine. But you ARE and you cant build and nurture those relationships with all this chaos from him.

Learn to consistently gray rock him outside yourself, you can gray rock him within and it won't eat you alive. At least some of the time ...

[p123]

I am trying. He wants me to phone every day I'm down to twice a week now....

I do all these gray rock things. He sucks the life out of me though. Last night hes bad again, and I just think how long again before I get another call from the hospital to say heres there or from FM cousin to tell me how ill Dad is.

I've learnt now not to give him any information. He just uses it to his advantage. My wife has had 2 different jobs since the one I tell him about. Its easier to leave it that way.
(She drives to patients now one of whom lives very close to him - you can guarantee if he knew that he'd want her to "pop in" - which is never happening)

Same with son with Aspergers. Its been a very tough few years and Dad didn't let up once - he still wanted 100% attention despite all the things I had on my plate. Son is 18 now and 500% better, planning college etc, but I'm not telling Dad that. I just know he'll see a chink of spare time of mine that he'll claim.

Notice a new tactic recently. He keeps going on about how shy I was when I first went to college and how he talked me into staying. 35 years ago!!!!
This is a new tactic I think to try and take me down a peg or two that I'm not all that, and how he really helped me all those years ago.

[NarcKiddo]

I've recently come across the "Observe, don't absorb" tactic. Essentially you pretend you are conducting some sort of research and they are the object of your research. You take a detached interest in their tactics, mentally noting as they trot them out. Combined with grey rock it has so far helped me to keep my emotions in check rather than getting triggered so much. It can become almost satisfying, or even amusing, as they act out the scenes you predicted, or it can be informative if you notice they are slightly changing their theme, like you have with you allegedly being shy about college.

e.g.
Dad - I am so ill, I have a tight chest and sneezing.
You (in your head) - aha! I knew it. He is over-egging the hay fever, as per usual.
You (out loud) - oh dear.
Dad - you have to take me to church
You (in your head) - here we go again. He wants me to be his chauffeur. Typical.
You (out loud) - sorry, I've something else on that day.
Dad - what have you got on that day?
You (in your head) - he wants to know so he can tell you his errand is more important. Don't go there.
You (out loud) - a long-standing engagement/work thing/college interview for son, whatever is easiest to invent that will reduce his queries and sound boring.

Not sure how great those examples are but I hope they give you some idea of what I mean - and you can obviously Google if you are interested.

[moglow]

I just think how long again before I get another call from the hospital to say heres there or from FM cousin to tell me how ill Dad is.

And you don't have to answer those calls either. If FM can call you, they can call dad. You can't fix it for him any more than they can. I don't doubt that he's in pain but I'm not sure how the constant phone calls and complaints help?

[p123]

I just think how long again before I get another call from the hospital to say heres there or from FM cousin to tell me how ill Dad is.

And you don't have to answer those calls either. If FM can call you, they can call dad. You can't fix it for him any more than they can. I don't doubt that he's in pain but I'm not sure how the constant phone calls and complaints help?

To be honest, I don't think hes in that much pain to be honest. Like I said before, in the past, hes taken strong painkillers then stopped because his friends told him he'd get addicted. Then he moans his knees hurt.

I've had back problems myself and know that when things are bad you're literally counting down the minutes before you can take the next dose. At this point, you don't even think about the addiction thing you feel so much pain.

My wife has fibromyalgia (and shes had a knee replacement too) so for years shes taken a concoction of drugs/painkillers. For a few years she couldn't walk without a stick (and she was under 50). I try to tell Dad this - not only for him to realise its not just him but some people taking medication is the only way.

The hayfever thing is telling for me. Yes its not pleasant at all. But Dad doesn't go outside so his exposure is limited. Hes talked about how he can't breathe and how terrible it is and how bad his life with hayfever is. My 18 year old gets it bad and hes 100x worse than dad. This speaks volumes that Dad just will moan about anything.

Then the other day he was moaning he couldnt cope and he wishes he'd pushed things a bit much with the lady from the hospital. This is the one who phoned me and politely pretty much said hes fine, hes not that bad, he just needs to listen to his doctor. And there was no way he was ill enough to qualify for funded care.
Of course, as soon as I told Dad he might have to pay for a carer he changed his tune. Again, if you were struggling that badly, and you could afford it (which he can) then you'd pay wouldnt you?

Hes been like it for years. His attitude is if you're ill, you go to the doctor, they give you a pill and you're better. Of course, its not that straightforward. Many times I've heard Dad ranting about how the doctors needs to pull his finger out and sort him out.

[p123]

I've recently come across the "Observe, don't absorb" tactic. Essentially you pretend you are conducting some sort of research and they are the object of your research. You take a detached interest in their tactics, mentally noting as they trot them out. Combined with grey rock it has so far helped me to keep my emotions in check rather than getting triggered so much. It can become almost satisfying, or even amusing, as they act out the scenes you predicted, or it can be informative if you notice they are slightly changing their theme, like you have with you allegedly being shy about college.

e.g.
Dad - I am so ill, I have a tight chest and sneezing.
You (in your head) - aha! I knew it. He is over-egging the hay fever, as per usual.
You (out loud) - oh dear.
Dad - you have to take me to church
You (in your head) - here we go again. He wants me to be his chauffeur. Typical.
You (out loud) - sorry, I've something else on that day.
Dad - what have you got on that day?
You (in your head) - he wants to know so he can tell you his errand is more important. Don't go there.
You (out loud) - a long-standing engagement/work thing/college interview for son, whatever is easiest to invent that will reduce his queries and sound boring.

Not sure how great those examples are but I hope they give you some idea of what I mean - and you can obviously Google if you are interested.

I do most of these things. I've come a long way in the last 10 years with him... I've said many times I'd be divorced by now if I'd carried on listening to him....

BUT, I do still let him wind me up and it affects me. Can't you tell? Sorry for my ranty posts lol.

[Starboard Song]

I've recently come across the "Observe, don't absorb" tactic. Essentially you pretend you are conducting some sort of research and they are the object of your research. You take a detached interest in their tactics, mentally noting as they trot them out. Combined with grey rock it has so far helped me to keep my emotions in check rather than getting triggered so much. It can become almost satisfying, or even amusing, as they act out the scenes you predicted, or it can be informative if you notice they are slightly changing their theme, like you have with you allegedly being shy about college.

You gave great examples of this tactic. We documented types of behavior: there was the Door #2 thing, where they evaded responsibility for a previous action by pretending it never happened, there was the Pro-Projection, where they accused you of something clearly because they thought they liked the sound of it. As we witnessed these things, we'd say "oh look! A Door #2." And it made it cute and anthropological. Detached.

[nanotech]

When you feel unsettled and wound up by him, remember those feelings are the price you pay for your amazing boundaries.
It's temporary 

When we disallow the abuse, our learned behaviour ' fills the gap' we've created, and we tend to punish ourselves through inner self criticism and anger/ resentment toward the PD. Great huh. 
I was like this for ages. Years!
Time is the best therapist. These feelings begin to leave us. Especially if we acknowledge, but don't concentrate on them - focusing on FOC and not on any negative internal conversations or rationalisations or indignations .

[NarcKiddo]

I do most of these things. I've come a long way in the last 10 years with him... I've said many times I'd be divorced by now if I'd carried on listening to him....

BUT, I do still let him wind me up and it affects me. Can't you tell? Sorry for my ranty posts lol.

I know the feeling. Don't apologise. We all need a good rant now and again. 

[lkdrymom]

I found the best approach is to put it back on him.

Ask him what HE is doing about fixing his problem.  Ask him if HE is following doctor's orders and when he says he isn't, as how he is expected to get better if he doesn't?  Or flat out ask 'what are you expecting me to do about it if you won't do anything to help yourself?" And then end the conversation quickly.

My father would go to the hospital for constipation constantly.  AL caught on to this and refused to take him so he would tell them he hit his head so they would let him go. CAN you imagine?  The elderly are manipulative to get the desired results.

[p123]

I found the best approach is to put it back on him.

Ask him what HE is doing about fixing his problem.  Ask him if HE is following doctor's orders and when he says he isn't, as how he is expected to get better if he doesn't?  Or flat out ask 'what are you expecting me to do about it if you won't do anything to help yourself?" And then end the conversation quickly.

My father would go to the hospital for constipation constantly.  AL caught on to this and refused to take him so he would tell them he hit his head so they would let him go. CAN you imagine?  The elderly are manipulative to get the desired results.

Yep thats what happens with Dad. Hes had probably about 20-30 short hospital visits.

I feel sorry for the staff. Obviously, they're duty bound to check him over but think of the time and money wasted.
Also know full well if there was any doubt they'd keep him in but they never do any more. They used to but I dunno if its on his record now.

[p123]

Had it all again last night on the phone.

Social Services had phoned him last week (they phoned me last week too). He couldn't hear on the phone. So I pointed out that once more hes lying to me because all hes interested in not spending money. (He made me cancel the appt I made to get a new hearing aid because he said he'd got a new phone that was louder). But if thats his decision don't moan when you can't speak to people on the phone and/or expect me to do it for you.

Social services the other week basically said he doesn't qualify for free homecare because hes not ill enough. Which is right. They did sign up for a "friends" service - basically I think its a volunteer thing where people visit old people, take them out etc.

Hes decided now he doesn't want to bother with that (After they set it up!) and hes definitely NOT paying for a carer because "I can manage"
I kept calm and said, "OK you're decision but bear in mind two weeks ago, it was all going off, it was an emergency and you needed help NOW and you discussed this with Social Services- they sorted something out and now you've declined it. What do you think will go on record now and they'll see when you phone next time?"

As for the carer, I told him hes got plenty of money, he might not like to have to pay but thats the way the world works. If he needs a carer he'll have to pay. If he doesn't then hes not as bad as he makes out.

So I told him hes made his decision now, totally up to him but remember this decision because I can't pick up any slack hes now caused.

Hes not happy to say the least. Twice now in 2 weeks I've called him out on this.

Trying not to get annoyed but I'm fuming. Basically, all Dad wants in his head is for family to do it all and he sits back.

[Starboard Song]

p123,

I notice this pattern, or gap.

In an initial post you share a problem by describing a scenario: dad believes X and says Y. I tell him Z but he only remembers Q. The gap is in how many members here interpret that problem, and how -- perhaps -- you define it.

Most members define the problem as something like, "dad is mean and dehumanizing and I cannot escape it," or "dad physically violates my boundaries to destroy me peace," or "I am deeply hurt by dad's meanness or insensitivity." I feel like you define the problem as more "how do I make my dad less stupid?", or "how do I make my dad understand?", or how do I make my dad less stingy or myopic?"

Focus on that gap. We start with the postulate: I did not CAUSE it, I cannot CONTROL it, I cannot CURE it. And we accept the tough medicine that the thing over which we have the most control is our own reactions, and -- even tougher -- our emotional engagement and reaction.

I like to use as a model, this idea. You've probably at some point gotten caught up in a political brewhaha on social media. You thought you could make some innocent comment on some public policy matter, and next thing you know people are calling you a socialist or a fascist or whatever: it is infuriating. And it makes normal people like us want to persuade, or defend ourselves. But think about your average politician. They are different. This person is hated by 20% of the population. And another 1/3 thinks they are wrong a bunch of the time. Letters to the Editor call them names and question their integrity. Do you figure they get angry about the fact that easily a quarter of their neighbors think so harshly about them, and talk so bad about them? Of course not. A politician thinks "I won the office by an election, and I am putting myself on a bit of a pedestal, and I naturally become a target. It's OK. This is all about the disagreements, and about how important these issues are. I don't mind their opinions and anger."

I truly believe we ought to aspire to be like a politician in this regard. You don't need to find a way to get your dad to take his pain meds, or to stop complaining about pain, or thinking he is dying of hayfever. You need to limit the time you spend on the topic, end conversations that turn abusive, and accept with detachment his complaints: "I know it is hard, dad. I do."

I don't say this is easy. But I say with confidence that you'll never ever change your dad, but you can certainly change your own reactions to him, even the deep and emotional ones that are so hard to address.

With deep respect,

Be Good. Be strong.

[p123]

p123,

I notice this pattern, or gap.

In an initial post you share a problem by describing a scenario: dad believes X and says Y. I tell him Z but he only remembers Q. The gap is in how many members here interpret that problem, and how -- perhaps -- you define it.

Most members define the problem as something like, "dad is mean and dehumanizing and I cannot escape it," or "dad physically violates my boundaries to destroy me peace," or "I am deeply hurt by dad's meanness or insensitivity." I feel like you define the problem as more "how do I make my dad less stupid?", or "how do I make my dad understand?", or how do I make my dad less stingy or myopic?"

Focus on that gap. We start with the postulate: I did not CAUSE it, I cannot CONTROL it, I cannot CURE it. And we accept the tough medicine that the thing over which we have the most control is our own reactions, and -- even tougher -- our emotional engagement and reaction.

I like to use as a model, this idea. You've probably at some point gotten caught up in a political brewhaha on social media. You thought you could make some innocent comment on some public policy matter, and next thing you know people are calling you a socialist or a fascist or whatever: it is infuriating. And it makes normal people like us want to persuade, or defend ourselves. But think about your average politician. They are different. This person is hated by 20% of the population. And another 1/3 thinks they are wrong a bunch of the time. Letters to the Editor call them names and question their integrity. Do you figure they get angry about the fact that easily a quarter of their neighbors think so harshly about them, and talk so bad about them? Of course not. A politician thinks "I won the office by an election, and I am putting myself on a bit of a pedestal, and I naturally become a target. It's OK. This is all about the disagreements, and about how important these issues are. I don't mind their opinions and anger."

I truly believe we ought to aspire to be like a politician in this regard. You don't need to find a way to get your dad to take his pain meds, or to stop complaining about pain, or thinking he is dying of hayfever. You need to limit the time you spend on the topic, end conversations that turn abusive, and accept with detachment his complaints: "I know it is hard, dad. I do."

I don't say this is easy. But I say with confidence that you'll never ever change your dad, but you can certainly change your own reactions to him, even the deep and emotional ones that are so hard to address.

With deep respect,

Be Good. Be strong.

Thanks Starboard - of course you're right. On all of the 3 Cs.....

I do find it hard though. Yes this has been going on for years - probably 90% of the father/son relationship has gone now - its like I've been in mourning to be honest. All because of his bhaviour.

I still find it hard though to watch my Dad pretty much harming himself (and other around him if he gets the chance) because of him downright stupidity. Yes I know I need to let it go.

Trouble is as I've said before, hes got skin like a rhino, no matter how times I blow up with him he's back on track within days. And one thing, his commitment to the cause does not flag EVER! Does he deserve for me to go NC with him? Probably - hes treated me appallingly - I get nothing out of the relationship any more, Can I do that? No I can't

I think all I can do is try not to let it wind me up. Sorry I know I'm always ranting on this forum!

[Starboard Song]

The dilemma is real, and respected. When a PD intersects with legitimate elder care issues it amplifies all the legitimate moral concern we all have about going NC, and your genuine concern for his well-being is commendable, not weak.

No need to apologize for a rant. I just want the rant to be constructive and to help YOU be stronger and happier.

[Cat of the Canals]

Trouble is as I've said before, hes got skin like a rhino, no matter how times I blow up with him he's back on track within days.

One thing to remember: for many PDs it isn't that they have skin like a rhino... they enjoy and/or get resources from our outbursts. Why? Because it shows they got under our skin or that we cared enough to get angry or that they still know how to push our buttons. It shows them that we are still holding our end of the rope and pulling hard whenever they give a tug. It's why Medium Chill and Grey Rock are so recommended. Both are tactics for responding without engaging emotionally.

[Sneezy]

When a PD intersects with legitimate elder care issues it amplifies all the legitimate moral concern we all have about going NC, and your genuine concern for his well-being is commendable, not weak.

This is it - this is the problem succinctly stated.  By the time p123 (and many of us) figured out what we were dealing with, and figured out that we have/had legitimate reasons for going NC, it was too late.  Not really too late.  Anyone can choose to go NC at any time, of course.  But I'm not going to do go NC with someone in their eighties, especially someone who I convinced to move near me in her old age.   I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I did that to my mom at this stage of life.  And I suspect p123 feels the same way about his dad.  And so what we have left is the other tools in the toolbox - medium chill, grey rock, observe don't absorb, etc.  One thing I've been doing lately is telling myself that my mom has early-stage dementia.  I don't know if that's true or not.  Probably not.  She's probably just lying and manipulating and being mean like she has for much of her life.  But if I handle her like I would someone who is old and has dementia, I can be a little more detached, which helps.