Can you maintain relationships with family members who want/try to be ‘neutral'?

[theonetoblame]

It's not just you, twenty-twenty. Child abuse is black and white, and against the law. In my situation, I eventually came to understand that the entire extended family knew things about mother's mental health history, and psychiatric hospitalizations, prior to my arrival but all kept their distance. This left me in an abusive bubble of isolation. In this way, I'm with befuddledclarity, extended family tends to say stupid stuff, things that are boilerplate. In fact, I'm pretty certain someone said exactly "you'll come around, and that's your MOTHER after all." I can hear the words ringing lol really, it makes me laugh how unimaginative and daft some of them are.

I must also acknowledge what I believe the intent of starboardsong's posts are i.e. once the family tree is pruned many of those branches won't grow back. My tree was felled years ago and now lives in virtual form on ancestry.ca. It's not something I would wish on anyone although it was a necessary outcome in my situation.

[Starboard Song]

I must also acknowledge what I believe the intent of starboardsong's posts are i.e. once the family tree is pruned many of those branches won't grow back. My tree was felled years ago and now lives in virtual form on ancestry.ca. It's not something I would wish on anyone although it was a necessary outcome in my situation.

This is all so sensitive and very hard to communicate about. Part of that challenge is that we all have very different stories: some were victims of chronic and brutal abuse, others lived in the FOG because of a toxically negative upbringing by PDs, still others were raised ok but things have gone weird since then, as people aged.

Some of those cases are the sort where it would indeed be odd to declare neutrality. Some behaviors are so awful that any normal moral judge would turn their back on the perpetrator. Some of us in this thread had exactly those sorts of experiences. And for those people, it is hard to imagine accepting those who say, "yes, dear, I understand, but I love you both. I'll just stay neutral." For those people I imagine that the family tree is indeed felled and chopped and burned. Their experience is very real.

The original post asked only if it were possible to maintain relationships with family and friends who want to be neutral with regard to our PD parents. For many of us here the answer is an unequivocal yes. You absolutely can. And overpruning for those members only deprives us of ever more love that we all deserve in our lives.

I think this diversity of experiences is so important to acknowledge. I am glad it has been made so clear in this thread, so people can see that diversity and know that they too are unique and will find their own way.

[Cat of the Canals]

The original post asked only if it were possible to maintain relationships with family and friends who want to be neutral with regard to our PD parents. For many of us here the answer is an unequivocal yes. You absolutely can. And overpruning for those members only deprives us of ever more love that we all deserve in our lives.

As someone who answered in the affirmative, that yes, I do believe it is possible to maintain such a relationship, I want to add this: Just because someone "in the middle" declares an intent to be neutral, and even if they do in fact appear to remain neutral, that doesn't mean you are obligated to maintain a relationship.

I can absolutely understand how this so-called neutrality could feel like complicity. Or like asking you to deny/keep quiet about your experience. Like Starboard Song said above, the diversity of our experiences makes it impossible to give a true one-size-fits-all response, especially when dealing with hypothetical questions.

[Starboard Song]

As someone who answered in the affirmative, that yes, I do believe it is possible to maintain such a relationship, I want to add this: Just because someone "in the middle" declares an intent to be neutral, and even if they do in fact appear to remain neutral, that doesn't mean you are obligated to maintain a relationship.

Here! Here! There is way too much at stake, in these cases. Just as we are forced to be with the PDs in our lives, we have to take steps to care for ourselves. Nobody should ever feel guilty about the hard choices they are forced to. Thanks for adding that!

[BefuddledClarity]

It's not just you, twenty-twenty. Child abuse is black and white, and against the law. In my situation, I eventually came to understand that the entire extended family knew things about mother's mental health history, and psychiatric hospitalizations, prior to my arrival but all kept their distance. This left me in an abusive bubble of isolation. In this way, I'm with befuddledclarity, extended family tends to say stupid stuff, things that are boilerplate. In fact, I'm pretty certain someone said exactly "you'll come around, and that's your MOTHER after all." I can hear the words ringing lol really, it makes me laugh how unimaginative and daft some of them are.

I must also acknowledge what I believe the intent of starboardsong's posts are i.e. once the family tree is pruned many of those branches won't grow back. My tree was felled years ago and now lives in virtual form on ancestry.ca. It's not something I would wish on anyone although it was a necessary outcome in my situation.

Yeah, it's a bit easier for me to cut off my relatives especially when they say silly things like that constantly but also...because I do not know them well even if I 'know' them[which was many years back...]. If I was as close to them as I am to my brothers, it would be a different story---though I was LC with my brothers for the longest time due to them siding with parents and ended up just doing me.

As for my brothers, I grew up with them and we get along fine while having many common interests and even perspectives. So, even though they keep in contact with our abusive parents, I'm not going to tell them "Hey, don't talk to them or else I'll cut you off!!". Their relationship with our parents is different from my relationship with them...I was the scapegoat and escaped lol. My younger bro is basically LC with parents while second older bro mostly phones in PDfather while oldest bro lives with PDmother and visits PDfather occasionally.

I think my brothers feel obligated to keep in touch with parents and haven't completely got Out of the FOG yet, especially my eldest brother, since he lives with PDmother.
I believe it's possible to have neutral party members---my brothers were completely against me siding with parents, but slowly started to understand once I left. I was the scapegoat, so parents had to take out their anger/aggression on someone else while I was gone--so now they know. They're not completely Out of the FOG, but getting to that point. When they vent about parents, I try to be kind and understanding, since I've went through it as well.

But yeah, it just depends on how that particular individual is like. Some people choose to be blind and ignorant and don't want to listen, some take a while to come around, others don't like choosing sides, and finally there's some who won't change because they have fleas or have PD themselves and think you're wrong...

My PDmother's side of the family thinks I owe my PDmother money for just...being my mother LOL. They expect ME to take care of her, perhaps because I'm the only woman out of the men siblings? It's just sexist and ridiculous. But it's also a cultural thing too, that I don't abide by so I'm a "mischievous rascal" in their eyes haha.

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I made a lot of grammatical and spelling errors while using mobile on prior post, I fixed them below using the computer this time lol:

I've had friend groups back in junior and senior high to where I didn't get along with my friend's friend due to them being toxic and let them know that I'm not friends with said toxic person and that I would rather they not keep bringing said person up nor would I want to hang around toxic person, but I also mentioned that it does not change OUR friendship, because that's separate from me and toxic person.

I've also had the reverse during my college years/late teens-early twenties where my friends didn't all get along with each other, so I don't hangout with them all at the same time and respected that after one friend told me that X friend makes him uncomfortable/irritated.


TDLR; I would say it depends on if they respect your boundaries or not will determine if you are able to remain neutral with them. My brothers respect my boundaries but my relatives do not, so I'm NC with relatives. Also, your DDs relationship is separate from their relationship with you---and it's not anyone's place to judge you for being NC with your mom while your DDs may not be. They haven't grown up with your mother and they were not treated how you were. If outsiders want to judge, that's their problem. Its fine if you want to stay NC! Please don't feel bad.

[theonetoblame]

I can absolutely understand how this so-called neutrality could feel like complicity. Or like asking you to deny/keep quiet about your experience. Like Starboard Song said above, the diversity of our experiences makes it impossible to give a true one-size-fits-all response, especially when dealing with hypothetical questions.

I think you touch on something important here, at least for me. It is about acknowledgment.... That was the piece I needed in order to trust relationships with extended family. Acknowledgment requires accepting that I'm telling the truth. It most definitely never meant that the other party cut off my parents, simply that they recognize and are willing to talk about (even if only once and briefly) what happened. This is the thing none of them would do... I believe it's because my parents were so good at splitting and controlling the narrative, and because they never once budged from their lie. 

My previous responses were probably more polarized, but it really is about this one simple thing. This thing still stirs some arousal though..

[Leonor]

Meh.

What does "neutral" mean, anyway?

I mean, who has the right to declare themselves "neutral" in a relationship between two other people?

It's so presumptuous! "I'm beyond your petty squabble," kind of nonsense.

If I am estranged from my mother, for example, my aunt has no business explaining her neutrality to me. And I dang well bet she's not saying that to my mom! Is my aunt cajoling *her* to reflect upon her life choices? Refusing to share photos or information because, after all, "she's your daughter?"

Nope, instead she's nodding and patting mom's hand as mom sniffles and dabs at the corner of her eyes over her "lost daughter." Sighing and agreeing that therapists only get one side of the story. That part of adulthood is accepting your parents make mistakes, too. And resolving, in her generous heart, to reach out to you and let you know how much mom misses you. To show her a photo, to bring her some comfort in her old age, even if she "never gets to see" her grandchildren.



That's not being neutral.

However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers." 

If you ask her about your family history and your aunt tells you a little about how grandpa used to drink a lot and granny gambled at the bingo hall, and your mom wound up taking care of your aunt, say, just to give you some perspective, but always with, "That doesn't make what she did to you ok," then that is useful information rather than gossip or flying monkeyness.

And if that rock solid aunt sees old mom, and when the waterworks start says, "I hear you're upset, but this is something you have to work on with your daughter or get professional help, because I can't mediate between the two of you. My relationship with her is different from my relationship with you," then I think old auntie might be worth keeping around.

Of course, an auntie who is that kind of neutral is probably going to hear it from mom, because PDs are not into neutrality, or responsibility, or productive conversation.

You'll know what is right for you by listening to your gut. Your gut will say, Oh thank heavens, here's the sane one! Or egads here comes other round of why don't you just call your mother?

[Hazy111]

    

[Starboard Song]

What does "neutral" mean, anyway?

I mean, who has the right to declare themselves "neutral" in a relationship between two other people?

It's so presumptuous! "I'm beyond your petty squabble," kind of nonsense.

In my experience, we have had the rock solid aunt (but not an aunt) you describe in the second half of your post, and you nailed it, answering your question nicely: that description you gave is exactly what neutral means.

When he (the not-an-aunt) told us he was going to remain neutral, it wasn't presumptuous: it was a courtesy to us, letting us know that visiting with my in-laws was no disrespect to us, and assuring us he would respect us and our privacy. He certainly didn't mean to elevate himself above our problems, and I am so glad. He only meant that -- given all the pros and cons for him, in his life -- he believed he should maintain his relationship with these folks while respecting us and our privacy at all times.

[theonetoblame]

However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers." 

If you ask her about your family history and your aunt tells you a little about how grandpa used to drink a lot and granny gambled at the bingo hall, and your mom wound up taking care of your aunt, say, just to give you some perspective, but always with, "That doesn't make what she did to you ok," then that is useful information rather than gossip or flying monkeyness.

And if that rock solid aunt sees old mom, and when the waterworks start says, "I hear you're upset, but this is something you have to work on with your daughter or get professional help, because I can't mediate between the two of you. My relationship with her is different from my relationship with you," then I think old auntie might be worth keeping around.

Of course, an auntie who is that kind of neutral is probably going to hear it from mom, because PDs are not into neutrality, or responsibility, or productive conversation.

You'll know what is right for you by listening to your gut. Your gut will say, Oh thank heavens, here's the sane one! Or egads here comes other round of why don't you just call your mother?

That is some top tier, gold star level 'neutrality' you describe!  It's also chock-a-block full of acknowledgement! Exactly what I was talking about. I would have accepted even a small amount of this and maintained contact. Instead, I got avoidance and silence... or conversations that seemed to start out reasonably but soon turned around to picking out problems within me. Those ones were the worst, just starting to think it's going to go well then -- bam!

[Tundra Woman]

Wait...what? You're NC with her but you allow her to have access to your kids?
What am I missing here? You as an adult consider this woman to be hazardous to your health but it's OK for your children to have a relationship with a person who abused you right into NC?

Have I got that right?

If so IMO, this is truly the crux of the problem: Mixed Messages. Which reflect Mixed Feelings. Your's. No, they are not mature enough to handle an abusive adult particularly when an *adult* can't manage the relationship. Holey Enmeshment.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I am NC with my parents and ILs, and so are my kids. I generally agree with the principle of too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids. And I've been solid in that with my own children. It was easier to decide for them because they were very young at the time I went NC.

That said, I have definitely had mixed feelings about it. I grieve for the loss of the hope of grandparents for my kids even three years later.

OWIU, it's got to be hard with teens. It makes sense to me that you would give them more autonomy in relationships as they approach adulthood, but still with the benefit of your guidance and support. It's not always so clear where to draw the line. They don't have the same history and relationship with your mother that you do, and yet they are still not adults, and it is still your duty to protect them.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you are doing your best to be true to yourself and your needs and still be fair and even generous to other people. As far as how that will work out long term with your mother and kids and extended family, it may or may not be possible. As you can see from this thread, for many of us it wasn't. Whichever way the cookie crumbles, it's just hard.

[Starboard Song]

I think there are many times when it is appropriate to allow an older teen to maintain a relationship with a grandparent from whom we are estranged due to a personality disorder. Toxic and PD people aren't dangerous in the same way that a spinning knife is dangerous: the danger is context dependent. PDs come in many grades, flavors, styles, and intensities. And the oldest teens are also adults, and deserve respect as adults.

For these reasons, there is no one-size-fits-all answer for anyone to abide by.

My wife and I are pushing 6 years NC from my in-laws. Because our son was only 11 at the time of our crisis, we allowed no ongoing contact. But we shared more as he matured, and ultimately restored to him responsibility for whether he wanted to receive mail from them or to contact them. We made it clear that there were still guardrails while he lived at home, but also said that respect for his sweet heart required us to respect his thoughtful mind, allowing him to decide for himself whether any contact at all was in order. He has decided that contact was not in order.

[EnglishLady]

Sorry you are going through this..

there is no 'neutral'. You can prove it by laying out your exact issues with the abuse you've taken throughout your life to anyone that seems to be 'neutral'. Be specific and give details. You' find one of two things, they reject outright what you claim, or they will side with you to support. But I can almost 100% guarantee that there will be no neutral.

I absolutely agree 👍🏼. This is very true, definitely no neutral ground.

[HeadAboveWater]

I know that you posted this a couple of weeks back, but if it is any help I can share my experiences with my in-laws and my family of origin.

I have a chilly relationship with my MiL and FiL. I will see them 1-2x per year, bu we don't otherwise talk. My spouse talks to them more often on special occasions but otherwise tries to avoid most of his family. About four years ago I started to come Out of the FOG after a visit at the winter holidays, and I couldn't see my in-laws the same way after that. It is not that they did anything monumentally awful during the visit, I just started to settle into a clarity that their behavior was intentional, hurtful, and not going to change. Further, I was coming into a place with my maturity and self esteem where I was able to believe for the first time that this wasn't normal and I didn't deserve it.

In conversations with a sibling in-law and sibling's spouse, we had for years named behaviors from the parents in-law that drove all of us around the bend. After I started coming Out of the FOG, I became a bit more decisive in talking about what behaviors were upsetting me and describing the damage those behaviors cause. I was also a bit more open about how I used alcohol as a coping mechanism when I was around the parents in-law. This seemed like a safe conversation because the sibling in-law, sibling's spouse, my spouse, and I would often drink together and verbally process after larger family gatherings. I discovered the hard way that sibling in-law and sibling's spouse do not see things the same way that I do. They are more likely to try to normalize parents in-laws' behaviors. They are also likely to say, essentially, "That's annoying, but don't take it personally/I don't think they meant it that way." The message I received is that members of my spouse's family are not fully emotionally safe for me even though they are "nice" people who seem to want to have me in their lives. I learned to put a lot of guardrails on what I will say and to adopt some medium chill strategies. I don't need to know who's on whose side, and I suspect it may vary by day and level of personal tolerance/frustration. All I know is that these are not fully safe people, and their boundaries are radically different from mine, so I treat them as acquaintances. 

The down-side to this way of thinking is that to label someone in mind my as "not fully emotionally safe for me" means acknowledging that I do not trust them. And without trust, I can't feel that I love someone. I can like aspects of that person and respect their choices, but it's not a true reciprocal and supportive relationship. That has caused me to distance myself some. It only makes sense, and I have no regrets. There was just some grief in the process.

[carrots]

If I am estranged from my mother, for example, my aunt has no business explaining her neutrality to me. And I dang well bet she's not saying that to my mom! Is my aunt cajoling *her* to reflect upon her life choices? Refusing to share photos or information because, after all, "she's your daughter?"

Nope, instead she's nodding and patting mom's hand as mom sniffles and dabs at the corner of her eyes over her "lost daughter." Sighing and agreeing that therapists only get one side of the story. That part of adulthood is accepting your parents make mistakes, too. And resolving, in her generous heart, to reach out to you and let you know how much mom misses you. To show her a photo, to bring her some comfort in her old age, even if she "never gets to see" her grandchildren.



That's not being neutral.

However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers." 

If you ask her about your family history and your aunt tells you a little about how grandpa used to drink a lot and granny gambled at the bingo hall, and your mom wound up taking care of your aunt, say, just to give you some perspective, but always with, "That doesn't make what she did to you ok," then that is useful information rather than gossip or flying monkeyness.

And if that rock solid aunt sees old mom, and when the waterworks start says, "I hear you're upset, but this is something you have to work on with your daughter or get professional help, because I can't mediate between the two of you. My relationship with her is different from my relationship with you," then I think old auntie might be worth keeping around.

x100 Thanks for putting that so well.

In fact I've asked for this sort of thing in FOO: However if Auntie is a rock who says, "Look, your mom is messed up and I get it. It's not your fault and you deserve more, but I know what she lived through and she's my sister, and that relationship is from long ago. So I do still see her and we talk, but we won't talk about you because I respect and honor your truth as much as hers."  and of course I was told it was impossible. That was long ago - 20 years ago.

I also have 2 "friends" presently claiming to be neutral or to support me but at the same time in one case who accepted a phone call from my M who is "soooo worried about me" despite me having clearly said "No way." and despite the fact that M is welcome to send me an email or letter, just no phone calls.  The second "friend" ended up supporting the first, though they aren't actually even friends. They know of each other, have met each other. The second "friend" has to feel kind of sorry for my F because he's a "nice guy". Yeah, a nice guy who didn't protect his children from his violent wife and a bunch of stuff of that nature.

So that's a further problem - people who claim to be neutral or even on your side and go and betray you. I've set my boundaries with "friend" no. 1 and am working on it with "friend" no. 2 - it's a really recent development in her case. I don't even think they are PDs, but they have started discounting my opinions and they question my actions because I am clearly surviving rather than really thriving in the normal sense of the word.

I know you're talking about FOO mbrs here, but this "I'm neutral" topic can apply to others too. My "friends" got to know my parents through me, at a time when I was back in contact 10 years ago or so. So it's not as if they were already long-term friends with each other, like family friends from way back.

[blues_cruise]

I also have 2 "friends" presently claiming to be neutral or to support me but at the same time in one case who accepted a phone call from my M who is "soooo worried about me" despite me having clearly said "No way." and despite the fact that M is welcome to send me an email or letter, just no phone calls.  The second "friend" ended up supporting the first, though they aren't actually even friends. They know of each other, have met each other. The second "friend" has to feel kind of sorry for my F because he's a "nice guy". Yeah, a nice guy who didn't protect his children from his violent wife and a bunch of stuff of that nature.

This just goes to show how easily people can be manipulated I think. F also pulled similar tactics when I told him that I wouldn't be taking phone calls anymore but that we could communicate by text or email (phone calls had become extremely stressful and unpleasant). He pretty much contacted everyone around him to talk about me and claim to be worried (even my mother in law!) and apparently posted something stupid on Facebook, but would he respect my boundary and just send me an email to discuss it with me directly? Would he heck. He was just after sympathy, validation and attention from other people. It is gutting when people fall for things like that. I stopped using Facebook because if anyone fell for it then I didn't want to see it and get upset.

So that's a further problem - people who claim to be neutral or even on your side and go and betray you. I've set my boundaries with "friend" no. 1 and am working on it with "friend" no. 2 - it's a really recent development in her case. I don't even think they are PDs, but they have started discounting my opinions and they question my actions because I am clearly surviving rather than really thriving in the normal sense of the word.

I know you're talking about FOO mbrs here, but this "I'm neutral" topic can apply to others too. My "friends" got to know my parents through me, at a time when I was back in contact 10 years ago or so. So it's not as if they were already long-term friends with each other, like family friends from way back.

I'm sorry your friends have reacted like this, it seems that they have involved themselves emotionally more than they should. The one who took the phone call from your M could so easily have just ignored the call, or answered and told your M that she didn't want to be involved and that she should send an email or letter, as per your wishes.

[Starboard Song]

Can we maintain a relationship with a non-PD person who chooses to also maintain a relationship with the PD from whom we are fully estranged? Semantic issues of neutrality aren't necessary to answer that question.




• If your experience was not the sort of hard, direct abuse that demands a firm moral judgment from everyone
• If they don't pester you about the PD, and respect your need for peace
• If you can enjoy their company without risking a significant breach of privacy

Then yes. Yes, you absolutely can, but there is risk.




• Might they one day turn on you? Yes, people sometimes let us down. But that is inherent in all relationships.
• Will they continue to talk to the PD on friendly terms, and sometimes share something with you, like how they had a nice lunch together? Yep.
• Will they even, from time to time, encourage you to consider reaching out to the PD? Of course! In 99% of all interpersonal conflicts that is exactly the right advice to give. And most of us needed decades of being in the hot seat before we realized the problem and solved it. And that is not being a flying monkey, so long as it is respectful, and responsive to your clear statements. That is, from time to time, making a little entreaty seems to me to be totally normal and healthy, while bullying and pestering are not.

There are tons of horror stories, and no -- we can't expect perfection out of anyone. But I am almost 6 years NC with my in-laws, and we maintain close, loving relationships with other family members who visit with them often and plainly love them. So it is entirely possible. Not for all of us, to be sure. There are too many different experiences here for us to be the same. But I want to emphasize again that it is possible: perhaps not uncommon. I respect those for whom it doesn't work

Be good. Be strong.

[Leonor]

Hm, perhaps it might be clearer to look at this situation from your point of view.

You can even make a list. Who are the people you are wondering about? Brainstorm names without thinking about them yet. Just a quick list of names, not titles: Betty Smith, not Aunt Betty. Jack Wilson, not cousin Jack. Eliza Poe, not Mom.

Then go one at a time. Ask yourself:
Do *you* want this person in your life? Again, not Aunts or Cousins. Betty Smith. Jack Wilson.

After asking each name, "Do you want Betty Smith in your life?", notice what happens inside you. If you feel (not think) "No!", "Not really, actually," or "Um, not so much," put an X next to their name. Don't think twice! Just X and move on.

If you feel (not think), "Absolutely!", "Yes," or "Yeah, I think so," put a check next to their name. If you find yourself smiling while you make the check mark, put two!

If you feel (not think), "Don't know," "I'm not sure," or "Ummm," then put a question mark next to their name.

Now look at your list. Who are the people you really want in your life? The double-check marks are people who have earned your trust. The people with the X mark have undermined your trust. And the question mark people, well, they'll clear that up for you pretty soon.

You might find that there are only a few people on your list. Maybe it's Jack Wilson, but not Betty Smith. Maybe there's no one. Or everyone has a question mark.

What this list will do is prioritize *you* instead of them. You don't question whether your abuse was "that bad," or whether you are being "unfair without cause" or "depriving" yourself of a family.

Instead, you are the arbiter of who *you* believe deserves to have *you* in their lives based on how they have treated *you*.

Best of all, the list is yours. You don't have to do anything else with it. It's just to be aware: "okay, there's a family picnic and the one person I really like won't be there." Do you go? Maybe not! And if you do, you go in aware. "Man, I'll go, but I won't stay long 'cause these people are crazy."

You get to decide!

[OWIU (Only Way Is Up)]

How did you know how much I love lists, Leonor, and that I've got an Aunt called Betty Smith and a cousin called Jack Wilson?!! I think I'd already started doing 'mental lists' of people – including friends (carrots, this isn't just about FOO, I agree).

Thanks to you all for such thoughtful insights, advice and sharing of experiences. It is heart-breaking to read everyone's abuse and traumas ... and inspiring to hear strategies and ways to self-care and move forward.

I'm drawn to "there is no one-size-fits-all answer for anyone to abide to" (Starboard Song). A lot of you are talking about diversity of experience and choice (whether carefully considered or gut-instinct). And we've all had enough guilt in our lives, haven't we?

Yet I still second-guess myself. And of course I have mixed feelings, Tundra Woman. 
In my original post I suggested that maybe the 'neutral' FOO members think my uPDM can't be 'THAT bad' if she still has a relationship with her granddaughters. Perhaps I'm thinking this myself, too, deep down. And so more second-guessing ensues. And if I have mixed feelings then it'd be hardly surprising that my 'neutrals' have them?

When I see the phrase "too toxic for me, too toxic for my kids" I agree with it and I desperately hope I don't regret the fact my DDs have contact with their GM. Part of the context of my story (which feels like me justifying my decision to myself and you guys!) is that I went NC two years ago without realising that was what I was doing. I didn't know my M had an uPD – I just knew I couldn't cope anymore and I needed to not see/communicate with her (which I now know is called 'NC'). I assumed for quite a while, naively, that she would agree to mediation and that - at some point - a 'relationship' would be back, albeit with agreed boundaries (helped by a mediator).

If I thought my DDs had been, or were being, harmed by the contact with their GM then I would stop it. But perhaps I'm in denial? After all, I had to get to middle age before I realised that what was happing (and had happened) was harm/abuse. I don't know... questions lead to more questions. It can feel exhausting, can't it?!