when are you ever ready?

[BeautifulCrazy]

 

I've never had this before, and to have someone telling me that i'm abusing them and that it's all me (even though I got my lawyer to write to them and them beg me to not divorce them), Im struggling with how I'm apparently so messed up that I'm the crazy one.

Is this what a lot of others here have faced? We try our best to be reasonable and rational and then have everything you think then slung back to you!

Yes! Yes! And YES!!
For me it was easier to believe that I was equally, or more "The Crazy Person" in our relationship.
I had believed the DARVO, the gaslighting, the lies about my character and who I was at my core. When I left the first time, I was verging on suicidal and honestly thought I was the one making everyone in our home miserable. I took my children, I left and went No Contact in order to save all six of us from the misery and abuse.
I went to therapy and worked very hard at it. I wasn't without dysfunction, but it wasn't anything like I thought. I wasn't "The Crazy One", I wasn't horribly abusive, I wasn't deaf, I didn't have memory troubles, I wasn't a complete idiot, I wasn't wrong for having feelings and attempting to express them. Generally, I wasn't unreasonable or irrational. My confusion and dismay at having every attempt at communication twisted and used against me, was real, valid and normal.
Still, I was hoovered back a year later, after a six month love bombing campaign. It was the same push / pull I had been living before, just on a larger timescale. But I wanted so much to believe in it. To believe in love. To believe they would, and could, change, just for me. I wanted to be cared for and validated by this person.
I understand your back and forth feelings, mrconfused, truly I do.
Leaving and staying out of it is really hard. Even when you don't want to be there anymore. Even when you know you will be better off and it is the right thing to do for yourself. Even when you know you want and deserve more.

Sorry, I might be just rambling and venting for my own benefit here.

I'm so sorry for all you are going through. Please be assured that you are NOT "The Crazy Person". Your posts are coherent, thoughtful, sensitive and show a great capacity for introspection and self-reflection. You are also willing to admit you might be wrong. Basically the antithesis of crazy.

I am praying for your strength and looking forward to reading your victory stories!!

~BC

[Bowsy26]

BC:   

[mrconfused]

I've never had this before, and to have someone telling me that i'm abusing them and that it's all me (even though I got my lawyer to write to them and them beg me to not divorce them), Im struggling with how I'm apparently so messed up that I'm the crazy one.

Is this what a lot of others here have faced? We try our best to be reasonable and rational and then have everything you think then slung back to you!

Yes! Yes! And YES!!
For me it was easier to believe that I was equally, or more "The Crazy Person" in our relationship.
I had believed the DARVO, the gaslighting, the lies about my character and who I was at my core. When I left the first time, I was verging on suicidal and honestly thought I was the one making everyone in our home miserable. I took my children, I left and went No Contact in order to save all six of us from the misery and abuse.
I went to therapy and worked very hard at it. I wasn't without dysfunction, but it wasn't anything like I thought. I wasn't "The Crazy One", I wasn't horribly abusive, I wasn't deaf, I didn't have memory troubles, I wasn't a complete idiot, I wasn't wrong for having feelings and attempting to express them. Generally, I wasn't unreasonable or irrational. My confusion and dismay at having every attempt at communication twisted and used against me, was real, valid and normal.
Still, I was hoovered back a year later, after a six month love bombing campaign. It was the same push / pull I had been living before, just on a larger timescale. But I wanted so much to believe in it. To believe in love. To believe they would, and could, change, just for me. I wanted to be cared for and validated by this person.
I understand your back and forth feelings, mrconfused, truly I do.
Leaving and staying out of it is really hard. Even when you don't want to be there anymore. Even when you know you will be better off and it is the right thing to do for yourself. Even when you know you want and deserve more.

Sorry, I might be just rambling and venting for my own benefit here.

I'm so sorry for all you are going through. Please be assured that you are NOT "The Crazy Person". Your posts are coherent, thoughtful, sensitive and show a great capacity for introspection and self-reflection. You are also willing to admit you might be wrong. Basically the antithesis of crazy.

I am praying for your strength and looking forward to reading your victory stories!!

~BC

Thank you so much for this post. It really meant a lot. I actually chose to read this out in my therapy session this week, I hope you don't mind!

I really feel like i'm waking up to things, but yet just more aware of how I'm the one allowing this reality to exist.

Everything that I find weird, for example how my partner wants to live together, but speak of nothing. Go away for the weekend with our child, and spend each second either on their phone obsessing over social media, in complete silence battling their anxiety, or outrageously drunk and incoherent.

All this is totally strange to me, and actually quite unpleasant. I find the silence deafening, I find the constant prioritisation of what ever is on that phone screen over me as humiliating and rude, and the drinking and strange drunken behaviour really unpleasant.

It's me who's constantly choosing to sit in the passenger seat on this. I asked my partner why they are so quiet and they say it's their anxiety.  Then I discover that they've yet again forgotten to take their medication, and also that they think their binge drinking has accentuated it.

It's not nice, i'm like a prop. They need me in the background of their instagram posts. If I ever dare complain that things are weird. I'll get that DARVO thing. I live in almost constant DARVO!!

I think I need to come up with a new plan. Reboot 2.0. I have to get a grip of things as I fee like i'm on a train right now, which I've boarded without knowing where to get off. I don't like the look of the final destination, looks like a huge crash could be coming. But which stop will I get off at? Feel sick with internal pressure. Come on! I think every day! Pick! Where are you going to get off??

Sitting in a house where the other person doesn't want to talk, gets angry if I try. Behaves oddly, is moody most of the time. Ignores me mostly,

Why am I here? I'm a prop in some weird fantasy. But it's not even my fantasy. I'm just riding along in their fantasy! Feels so unbelievably unsatisfying, and strange.

[bat123]

Mrconfused, I'm very much in the same place as you.  I've been in a long term marriage with an abusive spouse, and have three children.  The cycle is endless.  Usually after he gets REALLY psychologically abusive, I'll temporarily feel motivated to take steps to leave.  I've even previously consulted a lawyer.  I know what I need to do.  Then he love bombs.  And I stay.  I woke up to what was happening a few years ago.  I now think about leaving all the time.  My kids are getting older and I have an income which would allow me to be financially independent.  His treatment of me has worsened now that I understand it for what it is, and I have begun calling him out on it.  I have fewer and fewer reasons to stay.  I think it's just change that I fear.  I've never in my life been alone.  I've had a romantic partner continuously since I was a teenager.  The thought of leaving my home (I'll have to leave because he never will) and having alone time without my family around me scares me to death.  I only know how to live as part of my family unit.  It's a huge part of my identity and I dread the thought of having to navigate a different kind of life.  That's really what keeps me here.  I sometimes hope that he will do something so awful that I will have no choice but to leave.  About a year ago he shoved me against the bathroom wall and in the process left fingerprint bruises on my arm.  I should have left then.  I took pictures of the bruises but they mysteriously disappeared from my phone.  Now it's like it never happened.  Since then, he's been much more in control of the physical abuse, since I have continued to mention it and call him out on it.  The impact is still there, though.  I know what he's capable of.  Anyway, I digress.  I know what you're going through and I don't have any answers, except to say that when we finally have the strength and the will to leave, we will.

[mrconfused]

I know what you're going through and I don't have any answers, except to say that when we finally have the strength and the will to leave, we will.

Thank you for this. I really hope so.

[NeedSupport]

Leaving and staying out of it is really hard. Even when you don't want to be there anymore. Even when you know you will be better off and it is the right thing to do for yourself. Even when you know you want and deserve more.

Is anyone out there on the totally other side of this that can help us get through the above phase??  The (24 hours/week/month/3 months right after the separation phase) where things feel impossible and we feel like we made a mistake?  Any wisdom to share?

I forced the breakup conversation over the phone last night.. I finally just decided to rip off the bandaid because I wasnt sure I could keep doing another day as one-day at a time.

As of this morning we are in that confused possible no-contact, maybe another conversation but also who knows maybe never speak or see each other again situation.  The obligation and guilt is beginning to set in as I am starting to feel guilty and selfish every time I take a mental action to stick to this.  Makes me feel guilty.  As some of you know I've been in the same boat with the "train is picking up speed and I cant seem to pick a stop to get off" situation for atleast 3-6 months. (relationship has been 3.5 years).

For those that made it through to (post-break up phase).. I feel like I'm in a new phase and the prior roadmap is useless.  I'm afraid I'll just a u-turn and drive backwards into the prior stage.

[mrconfused]

Leaving and staying out of it is really hard. Even when you don't want to be there anymore. Even when you know you will be better off and it is the right thing to do for yourself. Even when you know you want and deserve more.

Is anyone out there on the totally other side of this that can help us get through the above phase??  The right after the separation phase where things feel impossible and we feel like we made a mistake?  Any wisdom to share?

I forced the breakup conversation over the phone last night.. I finally just decided to rip off the bandaid because I wasnt sure I could keep doing another day one-day at a time.
As of this morning we are in that confused possible no-contact, maybe another conversation but also who knows maybe never speak or see each other again situation.  The obligation and guilt is beginning to set in as I try to actionably stick to this.  Makes me feel guilty.  As some of you know I've been in the same boat with the "train is picking up speed and I cant seem to pick a stop to get off" situation for atleast 3-6 months. (relationship has been 3.5 years).

Hey have you read either "when i say no, i feel guilty" and/or "no more mr nice guy" ?

I found these books really super useful with regard to the feeling guilty side of things and building up resilience when it comes to emotional blackmail. If my situation was less complicated wiith children and what not, I think both these books would of been enough for me to push through.

I might re-listen to them this week since this conversation has got me thinking about them.

Also, picking up on your point about 'we are in that confused possible no contact'. I don't know if it was a typo, but no contact isn't bilateral so you shouldn't both be confused about it. Have you decided to go no contact, or not? If you have, then it's simple. If you haven't decided, then you are not in no contact.

I can relate to the torture you describe often, the torture of feeling a certain way about your relationship and partner, but not living in a way true to your own feelings i.e. getting out of it and believing you are worth more, which you are. You've tried making up, and continuing to endorse your partners version of reality for quite some time. Why don't you try not talking to them, not reading their whatsapps, ignoring social media for a few weeks and focusing on you. Do you have other things to put your attention into? Job, sports, anything that makes you feel good?

You might not even hear from your partner again, or they might realise that you're serious about your own perceived value.

It might not feel liike it right now, but you sounds like a nice person and you have little to lose, there's no major issues with kids or property/assets etc. Give yourself permission to put yourself first. If your relationship makes you feel rubbish, go and do you for a while. See your friends, laugh, be free. You were not put on this earth to look after this other person and you owe them absolutely nothing.

Mathematically speaking there are literally millions of people out there that you could create a healthy relationship with (as long as you are equally healthy and ready, might not be yet judging on where you are at but that's ok, you're going to work on yourself too hopefully) . You are going to be ok.

[11JB68]

Mr confused, thx for the book suggestions. Just found when I say no ebook online with my library and downloaded it!

[PeanutButter]

Leaving and staying out of it is really hard. Even when you don't want to be there anymore. Even when you know you will be better off and it is the right thing to do for yourself. Even when you know you want and deserve more.

Is anyone out there on the totally other side of this that can help us get through the above phase??  The (24 hours/week/month/3 months right after the separation phase) where things feel impossible and we feel like we made a mistake?  Any wisdom to share?

I forced the breakup conversation over the phone last night.. I finally just decided to rip off the bandaid because I wasnt sure I could keep doing another day as one-day at a time.

As of this morning we are in that confused possible no-contact, maybe another conversation but also who knows maybe never speak or see each other again situation.  The obligation and guilt is beginning to set in as I am starting to feel guilty and selfish every time I take a mental action to stick to this.  Makes me feel guilty.  As some of you know I've been in the same boat with the "train is picking up speed and I cant seem to pick a stop to get off" situation for atleast 3-6 months. (relationship has been 3.5 years).

For those that made it through to (post-break up phase).. I feel like I'm in a new phase and the prior roadmap is useless.  I'm afraid I'll just a u-turn and drive backwards into the prior stage.

I am.

The longer you can hold out not making ANY contact ime the better chance you have of staying away even if he tries to reconnect.

For me there came a point after a months long no contact where I had an observer like experience with myself where I witnessed myself being pulled back down the rabbit hole. I said to myself 'ohhh so this is how this always happens." It was a phone call with him that he initiated because he always 'wanted to remain friends' but he was doing his manipulations on me. I beleive the reprieve allowed my head to clear enough that I didnt have same vulnerbility when he tried it again.

Imo focus on your emotions. Sit with them even if they are uncomfortable. But dont act on them.

[mrconfused]

Mr confused, thx for the book suggestions. Just found when I say no ebook online with my library and downloaded it!

You're most welcome! Have you maintained NC today?

[11JB68]

Mr confused, I'm not at the NC stage yet with uocpdh. I did maintain MC pretty well though today so far.
Still married and together.
Looking towards maybe leaving soon.

[mrconfused]

Mr confused, I'm not at the NC stage yet with uocpdh. I did maintain MC pretty well though today so far.
Still married and together.
Looking towards maybe leaving soon.

I hope you find the strength to what is best for you in time. And please do feedback on the book when you have read/listened

[pushit]

Hey have you read either "when i say no, i feel guilty" and/or "no more mr nice guy" ?

I found these books really super useful with regard to the feeling guilty side of things and building up resilience when it comes to emotional blackmail. If my situation was less complicated wiith children and what not, I think both these books would of been enough for me to push through.

I wholeheartedly agree with these book recommendations, they changed my outlook on relationships as a whole.  I saw myself in their descriptions of the "nice guy" far too often, and could recall times in my life that played out the same way.  I realized I had been walked over so many times, and gotten angry so many times when others didn't reciprocate what I gave to them.  I've compromised way too much in the past and now I see that wasn't the right path.

Some of the biggest takeaways for me were:
1.  Don't expect someone to be who you want them to be.  When they show you who they are by their actions you will know who you're dealing with, and don't pretend it's any different.  (this was a big one with my exPDw, when I realized her actions spoke way louder than her words the fate of our marriage was pretty much sealed)
2.  It's okay to say no, and you don't have to explain why.  (I've always fallen into the trap of over-explaining)
3.  It's okay to want something a certain way, and you don't have to explain anything other than "that's how I want it to happen".  Don't say "it needs to be this way" (which sucks you into over-explaining)
There are more great ideas in those books, but those hit me the hardest.  Incidentally, when you put #2 and #3 into action, it's amazing the responses you get from people.  I've found they don't push back as much as I thought they would, they show respect.

Reading those books has impacted me beyond my marriage.  I have reevaluated some long time friendships and see them through a different lens now.  A few of my old buddies tend to play the routine of talking me into the "guy trips" they want to do, but won't offer much compromise on doing the things I want to do.  These days I'm willing to offer them a 50/50 split on how we hang out together, and they keep repeating the same cycle of trying to talk me into what they want.  It's created a chasm between us, but now the friendship feels one-sided and I can't go back to who I used to be.

This knowledge has also improved my parenting.  I feel better equipped to handle situations between the kids, and between myself and the kids.  When I see one of my kids getting convinced to do something by their sibling or schoolmate, I can recognize it and step in to remind them they don't have to do anything they don't want.  I also feel better equipped to instill self confidence in them, and remind them of their rights to their own beliefs and desires.

It's been a couple years since I've read them, now I feel like reading them again for a refresher!  Great books!!

[11JB68]

Mrconfused, I've been reading when I say no and it's very interesting. On one level I feel like it's hard to apply as it seems to deal with folks who are non pd. However the concept that s lot of the expectations that result in our feeling guilty are based on childish assumptions and need to control others is definitely relevant.

[mrconfused]

Mrconfused, I've been reading when I say no and it's very interesting. On one level I feel like it's hard to apply as it seems to deal with folks who are non pd. However the concept that s lot of the expectations that result in our feeling guilty are based on childish assumptions and need to control others is definitely relevant.

I think the book is brilliant. Im going to re read in the next couple of weeks as it's been a couple of years so I can brush up. I really did take on board the 'be your own ultimate judge' of your actions, and it felt good when I started to recognise every little emotional manipulation not just my PDW threw/throughs at me, but also my mother, my friends. Everybody in my life to one extent or another has deployed these tactics.

Now, to your point about it being hard to apply to people with PDs. Totally agreed. Essentially the tips in the book enable one to set better boundaries and feel happier about the setting of these boundaries, but I really struggled. It's been 2 years since I started to learn of and practice these tools with the people in my life. I feel a few things have happened...

I feel like I have more respect for myself and others have more respect for me in my job, and social group. I feel that my marriage has become colder, more distant, and ultimately my partner has become ruder and more disrespectful.

Essentially my PD wife doesn't respect me more, but the people in my life whom reside on the more relatively normal part of the personality spectrum respect me more.

There is one significant change for the better with regard to deploying these tactics and being more aware of my own behaviour on this matter. I've started to feel less guilty. Yes the abuse has at times got more intense, but it has had less of an effect on me.

I'm going to go and re read this weekend!

[pushit]

Mrconfused, I've been reading when I say no and it's very interesting. On one level I feel like it's hard to apply as it seems to deal with folks who are non pd. However the concept that s lot of the expectations that result in our feeling guilty are based on childish assumptions and need to control others is definitely relevant.

I agree that it's not a book for improving your relationship with a PD.  The tactics within will not improve a PD relationship, in fact they will probably make it worse because a PD cannot accept that you are your own individual person with thoughts and desires that may not match theirs.

I don't think the book should be viewed as a way to "fix" your relationship with a PD, it's more about making improvements in ourselves so we have better relationships with all people, PD or non PD.  We all have something about us that made us susceptible to manipulation and entering a PD relationship, if you employ the tactics in the book and change how you interact with others then you will end up less likely to get sucked back into a relationship like this again.  I view it more as a road map to having healthy relationships with non PDs, and by eliminating the guilt over your own actions PDs will not see you as an attractive supply and you can avoid them.

Speaking for myself, I now realize that in my childhood I was trained to always need a reason for how I felt or what I wanted.  I don't believe anyone in my FOO is a PD, but now that I'm educated on it I see some of those patterns in my interactions with a couple of family members.  I've changed how I deal with them (mainly distance and grey rock) and this has improved my life.  The relationships are not as "close" as they used to be, but they were never that healthy in the first place so it's for the best.  I've also seen that people respect me more now, just by telling them "that's what I want" rather than trying to find a reason why my desires are valid.

[Boat Babe]

What helped me was the idea of addiction. I had to go cold turkey, through total NC, in order to get away and stay away. I just count myself lucky that there were no children involved.

Our brains get badly damaged by the abuse, the gaslighting, the rages, the fear, the projection, the hoovering. The whole nine yards. We have to get away and stay away to have any chance of healing. The problem is that by the time we can come Out of the FOG, we are in really bad shape. We have to cope with leaving an abusive, potentially very dangerous and damaging person when we are at the lowest we've ever been. It is beyond sucky.

What EVERYONE who has made it through to the other side does say is that it's worth it. Approach the first, hardest, part of your recovery as though you are coming off booze/drugs etc. One day at a time. With the support of people who get what you've gone through. By absolutely prioritising self care (so, so important). By sharing your story here.

I am two years out of my second relationship with a PD and my FOO definitely had PD traits to a greater or lesser extent.  It's really tough but it also gets easier. My life is full of meaningful connections and mercifully free of drama. That is everybody's birthright, including you 😁❤️

[11JB68]

Boat babe, yes. When I think about leaving, the doubts that enter my consciousness are all in uocpdh's 'voice'... You'll bankrupt us/yourself... You spent $10000 on a lawyer???... How will you manage x?... What kind of person leaves their husband who just had a heart attack?.... You're acting just like (my sister, your mother, this person...)... You don't give a sh*t about me...

[rubixcube]

mrconfused

I just want to jump in as I read this thread from the beginning and say that you sound a lot like myself.

My uCovertNPDw has taken all the power and I feel deeply enslaved. I'm 6 years married, with a 4 yr. old D.
Even with doing literally years of focused work on my own codependence and CPTSD I am in the same place I was, existentially, years ago.
I no longer JADE, MC, and Medium Chill, my D comes first, and I try like hell to not take my w's behavior personally, but, as you've said, her mood rules the house.
I've been told I have a strong external locus of control, that's why it affects me so much.

I think I'm afraid to decide to leave because I really worry about my D's mental health growing up. I want to keep her from the CPTSD I have had to live with for 40 years.
Because I'm a person with poor boundaries I'm sometimes afraid the "last straw" or my breaking point might not exist. As a good codependent I would(am) sacrifice my health to feed my ego and fear.
I am my own worst enemy here... Under the guise of protecting my D I may just be feeding my pride and cowardice.


I really sympathize with your struggle and will be following along.
Many prayers to you friend.