I have filed

[escapingman]

She hasn't yet threatening suicide or crawled on the floor, but she has done both in the past when I have rejected her. She cried yesterday, felt very sorry for herself. It's a tricky one, as I could easy just go to her, give her a hug and say all will be alright. But it's not up to me, it's up to her. She can say whatever, but she can't help herself going back to the abuse. But yes, if she threatens suicide I will call 999 and/or her mother and someone else can deal with it. I can see she is still pretending this marriage can be saved, so whenever, if ever, she realise this anything can happen.

By the way, I bought her milk in the end..... It won't change anything for how I feel so doesn't matter.

[hhaw]

You're children see you behaving appropriately, with kindness and consideration, even though the stbx is unkind, unstable and innapropriate.

Buying milk can be just that.

[JustKeepTrying]

My xOCPDh was on match a month after the divorce was final.  He is dating now and went on a cruise.  I know he will hook some poor unsuspecting woman to take care of him because he is "such a good man to take care of his exwife while she had cancer and then took all his money". He will play the martyr, victim and poor poor me act.  It has been an emotional up and down few years and yet, I do love him and want him happy and only the best for him.  Truly.

That doesn't mean I would take him back.

Get ready like square said and prepare your heart.

As for the joint household tasks, she may ask for milk but is she the only one who drinks it?  Probably not.  It's a joint household thing until you and/or she moves out.  Now if she asks you to pick up an item that only she uses, that is  "Gee, I don't feel comfortable buying that in case I get the wrong thing."

As soon as she threatens suicide, act on it.  At a minimum report to the doctor or social services or your joint therapist and record it.

[hhaw]

EM:

I hope you aren't forced to live with stbx long. 

Lots of risk and opportunity, but also terrible strain on the kiddos.

Try to remember you're asking the courts to settle the divorce for you.

The PD will bait, poke, challenge, waif and ask questions you'll likely feel obligated to answer.

Don't take the bait, accept the challenge, let your nose get stuck on her waif act pebble.  Don't let her trick you into  feeling obligated to help her understand or work anything out between you or come to some understanding.  That time has passed though you'll still want to. 

When you filed the divorce you stepped away from resolution with stbx and you placed the court and attorneys between the two of you for a reason.  It's the beginning of relief and healing and cultivating joy with your children sans constant conflict, blame, tantrums, silent treatment and chaos manufacture.

You are no longer confused and in the FOG.

You are responsible for remembering the Court will make decisions for your family .... don't let the stbx threaten or frighten you, bc she isn't in control now.

Instead, focus on this.....
The person with the best records wins.

THAT's your priority now.  Ensuring the record is set as straight as it can be so the Court can rule in your childrens' best interests.

Dig deep in the Out of the FOG toolbox and be ready to document, call services and help your children through this.

Abused children don't stop loving their abusive parent.  They stop loving themselves. 

You have a mission.  Don't let the PD distract you or  don't allow her to distract you for long.

Get curious.  Don't judge.  Give yourself tsunamis of self compassion.....so your girls know how to do it.

[escapingman]

Thanks for all support.

I was wrong, again, she still hasn't got it and she has not spoken to any solicitors. She want to talk, again, I have said no but she keeps coming back telling me we need to talk. The only conversation I am interested in is about who moves out and who stays in the house for now. She is unlikely to want to talk about that, she would want to talk at me until she can change my mind. I won't happen. I have made my decision, I am tired, I am tired of telling her the same over and over again only for her to deny it. The entire weekend she has been following me around in the house, tried to get small talk and then pretend all is fine. I changed the music streaming service, sent out new logins to everyone as it's a family account, she behaved like that was me declaring my undying love for her. If I would have withheld the information from her she would have acted like she was the biggest victim not being allowed to listen to music. I don't care whatever, but at least I didn't give her the opportunity to complain I taken her music away from her. This morning I went to the bakery with SG, we were going to buy some fresh croissants for breakfast, naturally SG picked up one for her, one for GC and one for her mum, but when we came home STBX again behaved like it was some love gift from me, even though it was SG that picked it up. It's not like I can say to the kids to exclude their mum, that would blow up in my face.

I also spoke to the couples therapist, she understand me and can see the difficulties, but I am not sure she understands PD so her help might just about end here. She is going to talk to STBX next week and try to get her to understand I want a divorce, no idea how that will go, but not really my job so I leave that. Next week STBX probably will be served the papers from the court, wonder if she will respond or put them in the bin. Again, it's not my problem what she does, I can't control her actions. If she keep ignoring it I think the divorce will end up not disputed and go through without any court interaction. One can hope.....

But to what you wrote hhaw. I don't think I can stay in the same house as her for much longer, all 3 sides of her is pretty unbearable (Victim, love bombing and the rage).

I just need to get peace and heal.

[escapingman]

She is about to lose it, with no control over the situation she is really struggling. She just demanded me to schedule a talk with her, I said no, she went really angry telling me she wants me to change my mind. Then telling me she does not want a divorce and she never meant any malice.... She then said she thought the divorce was put on hold and she was surprised I suddenly filed. Last week I was crying through all her abuse and told her I could not take any more and this is the end, she laughed at me and said what are you going to do about it. Surprise, I filed you stupid idiot.  Since I am Out of the FOG now, the entire conversation just felt weird as it was just blatant lies and denial from her. I didn't even engage much other than stating a couple of facts. Five minutes later she came back trying to do small talk about something completely random as if the previous discussion never happened.

[hhaw]

STBX will mount a multi faceted campaign to draw you into discussions, arguments, defending and explaining yourself..... she'll go from accusing you to, love bombing to raging to asking you questions you've always wanted to answer and find understanding from her BUT SHE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND YOU.

Everything you say from here on out will be twisted and used against you..... flipped upside down and weaponized.

There is NOTHING to gain from letting her in your head, or resonding to her, other than short answers like...."that's possible" "we don't see things the same" " I have a different experience." 

Drop your desire for her to understand.  Get used to sitting with the discomfort of telling the PD NO.

You're an adult and can leave the home when she refuses to honor a boundary...... take the kids and get ice cream.  Go to the grocery store with whicher child wants to go with.  Is everything shut down there, like in Canada? I hope not and if it is.... go for take out.......or lock yourself in your study or bedroom, but don't allow her to take up all your bandwidth and monopolize your headspace. 

You NEED your brain and focus.

Your children need you polite and responsive in the home...... verbalizing healthy boundaries in even tones and enforcing them, so don't name any consequences you aren't prepared to follow through on immediately.....

"You and I won't be discussing the divorce and if you continue to bring it up in front of the kids I'll.....(insert consuequence.)

If you leave the house every time she stomps a boundary, at least there's a chance she'll understand you won't allow boundary stomping any more, ever.  They say it takes 6 weeks of ZERO contact for a stalker to lose interest in the person they're stalking and find someone else. Not that you'll get that lucky, but you see how ANYTHING will and can be twisted by the PD into whatever disordered narrative she has going at the moment, so just avoid contact at all costs.

I'm not sure saying things like......"well, I told you I couldn't abide the hostility in the home with our children and nothing changes so this is where we are."  Maybe the PD will go back to her T and do what PDs DO...... garner sympathy, smear you then claim she's doing the work to be forgiven with the divorce dropped..... which is her doing something other than pointing herself at you AND MAYBE going to T will give her an insight or two?  Maybe?  Not likly, but you have no control over anything but yourself, EM. 

You're always the polite but firm, consistent parent striving to provide some stability and safety for the children in an unsafe abusive environment you're about to exit and some of the time the kids will be IN your safe environment, worst case scenario.  Best case is you getting full custody with stbx having supervised visitation bc she was unable to pretend to be appropriate arouind the children long enough to fool the Court..... or she threatens suicide and ends up in an evaluation which is the best place for her, all things considered, IMO.

I realize it's impossible to completely ignore her, but strap our filters on and view her with curiosity, like she's an interesting bug....... and continue taking pristine notes, recording and enforcing boundaries with compassion in front of the kids.

You're going to separated and out of her space soon.  The only question is.... can you show the Judge why you're the only good enough parent these children have and the stbx is acting in bad faith and with malice toward you and the children at times.

Prove your case well enough and you might just get what you ask for, so stay frosty and locked on the mission, EM.

Just bc the PD wants to talk, schedule conversations or blather on till you cave in and drop the divorce doesn't mean you have to participate or allow it. 

She lost her power when you filed.  Don't give your power away by complying with ANYTHING or the first thing she asks for if it's more than going to the store for a gallon of milk, just don't do it, EM.

It's going to be OK.

[escapingman]

Thanks again hhaw for your reply.

I am Out of the FOG, so don't worry. I know what she is doing, I am just trying to plan for my next steps and think about how much I can trust her with the kids. I need out, I need a break, can I leave the kids with her for a while? I suppose I need to get used to that anyway as she likely will get at least 50% custody anyway. I will not change my mind, no way I will. I have been out with SG today, we had a great afternoon, we played tennis, went to the pet shop looked at the rabbits and drove around chatting. We have no restrictions here in the UK at the moment so we can do anything we feel comfortable with. I have booked a trip to see my childhood friends next weekend, I need friends, but I am not sure I can leave. I am worried about the girls being with STBX, but I know I will have to leave them with her at some point anyway. I also booked a week for me and the kids to go away in their school holiday and to see their grand parents. I can't see this being possible, STBX will kick and scream about that, but I might just take them. But, the problem is that it is abroad in Europe and she could claim it is me kidnapping them. This will get ugly, but I will fight. I know who is the bad one and who is the good one. STBX also thinks she knows, but she is wrong, and I have my recordings to prove her wrong.

[square]

You have to discuss going abroad with your solicitor. I don't know but I assume you won't be able to take them

And even if stbx agrees one minute to let you she'll rescind it a minute later.

I thiink you're ok leaving the kids with her as need be. As you've said, joint custody is the most likely outcome anyway. Maybe she behaves herself a bit better when you're gone. If it were me, I'd be thinking you should be able to claim a similar amount of dad time in exchange. So if you leave the kids for two nights you should be able to take them elsewhere (hotel or flat) for two nights. If GC doesn't want to, warmly accept her decision and let her know if she changes her mind before you leave you'll be delighted.

[escapingman]

I already spoke to my solicitor about taking them abroad, I need an agreement in writing from STBX to be safe. I don't think that is a fight worth it at the moment, even though I think it would do the kids the world as they haven't seen them for 2 years.

But I think I need to go, it's mental to be close to STBX and all her games.

[square]

You might not be able to get the agreement.

Maybe you should just not mention it but IF she asks you for something you're reasonably willing to give, pull out the paper and offer a deal. Dunno what might come up but who knows.

I'd wait and see. If you ask her, she'll leverage the hell out of it. Wait and see if she asks something of you. (NOT cancelling the divorce etc obviously).

[JustKeepTrying]

now that you have filed and are ready to go in your mind soul and body, it is time to know the divorce laws in your area.  and the process.  this is the time to sit with your lawyer and ask questions.  If you leave the house, do you forfeit the house?  is it a complete split of property 50/50 of all assets bought within the marriage?  Do you own what you bought before the marriage?  What are sentimental items that you wish to have around you?  Exactly, and I mean exactly, how much are in each account before the courts freeze everything?  And every account from savings, checking, bonds, retirement and even the change in the drawer of the kitchen.  Know in your heart and mind what you are ready to walk away from - what you are ok with leaving on the table.

Is it a 50/50 division of time with the children?  Here there are standard schedules like schedule a, b or c.  Pick one.  What happens if you want to take the kids out of country - you or her - how does that work and how is it written into the agreement?  What pitfalls and problems should you worry about?  Read the blogs and articles about divorce where you live - and know the specific area - like state and county laws that could affect it.

Everyone has given great advice for you emotionally but also remember that knowledge is a calming and powerful tool.  Know what steps are next?  Does your area do a separation agreement and then work on the final divorce paperwork?  How does alimony work for either of you?  You don't need to answer us here but make sure your lawyer is talking you through all of this.

This will determine whether you can go outside the country with the kids - and you may ask your lawyer this question - when I filed I had a trip planned with my daughters to visit my parents and my stbx already agreed to the trip - do I have to get it in writing or how do I proceed?

Here is my best advice - advice I was given and wish I had followed - any and ALL agreements no matter how small - should be made in writing either handwriting or via email.  And be very specific.  Think worst case in every situation and be prepared for loose or fuzzy responses that walk around the issue.  Don't give up be direct and cc your lawyer if you need to.  A verbal agreement should be followed up with an email confirmation.  I didn't do this and I lost over 10,000 to my ex.  All because I didn't confirm in writing and he gaslit me and refused to pay.  But I walked away from it because I just couldn't fight anymore.

If you don't want the house, and leaving doesn't forfeit your portion of it by her either paying you or selling, then for your peace of mind find somewhere else and go.  Talk to your lawyer about how to approach your daughters but for your own sanity, go.

[escapingman]

Thanks for your input all of you.

I think I have a reasonable good idea about the process and how things work out. Ideally I should stay in the house as my claim on the house would be weak, and also STBX could keep stalling any talks and sales of the house so she could stay longer in the house if I have left. Having said that, it is becoming unbearable to be in the house with her, every time she gets one second on her own with me she tells me she doesn't want the divorce and that I should change my mind. I have no intentions to change my mind, but explaining to her so she gets it is about as productive as going over to the next door neighbours and explaining it to their dogs. She really doesn't understand this was her making by abusing me for years, and she had her last chance and blew it. When it comes to the process, it can only be stopped by me asking the court to withdraw my application, so by me doing nothing the process will keep going. STBX will be served the papers, if she doesn't respond she will be served them again in person, if she doesn't respond to that the divorce will be granted uncontested. At this time I can apply for the divorce to be final, but this should not be done before the finances and children has been discussed and agree. We don't have a complex financial setup, unless STBX plays up it could be agreed in an hour. The kids are getting older, so I think they are close to being able to chose for themselves, or at least heavily indicate where they want to live. To be honest, I am not even sure STBX would even want the kids, or she would fight for full custody, I don't know. I take that fight when it comes in a few months.

But before moving out, which I will have to, I need it all sorted with my solicitor. But staying in a hotel for a while is not seen as having moved out, so might be able to leave for a while to breathe to make proper decisions without having her breathing down my neck. Financially it won't make any difference staying in a hotel than renting another home.

[Hilltop]

Hey Escapingman, you are doing great, keep breathing.  I think she is still in denial, big time.  I don't think she believes this is really happening at all.  I think when the second lot of paperwork comes and she sees that it really is happening and she has to do something and the truth starts sinking in, this is when things are going to get ragey.  As you said, she hasn't got a solicitor yet, hence, no part of her seems to believe this is really happening.  She is most likely thinking this is a response to the last couple of weeks.

So when she gets the next lot of paperwork and it sinks in that this is happening, that is when I feel she is going to lose it.  Before the paperwork arrives have a plan in place for how you are going to deal with it.  Think about where you can go if you need to leave, pack a bag now with a few things and have it ready to go in case you need to leave quickly.  Get your important documents (birth certificate, passport, marriage certificate etc) and hide them away possibly in the bag you will take and put them somewhere she won't notice.  I don't know what her history is but borderlines can get vindictive when raging.  Of course she may just go waify.  You may not need to worry about this but better to protect the stuff that may be a pain to have to replace later or that may make things difficult if they go missing.  I suppose it's simply being prepared.

You got this, just remember to keep breathing deeply.

[escapingman]

I am exhausted, she caught me whilst working and did the speech, the drama the everything. She went all waif mixed with declaring her undying love for me. Denying all abuse, blaming the kids, blaming me, crying, her life will be ruined, begging me to change my mind, telling me this is not happening. Whatever I tried to tell her, I had just got it wrong. I cried, mostly because I so wish what she was saying was true, but I know it is a fantasy. After this going on for an hour or so, I am ready for bed, I am exhausted. But she seems to have gained her energy levels up fronm this charade, walking around singing, being happy, almost dancing round. I am not sure if she in her drama have got it in to her head that by doing this show, this is not real anymore and she thinks I have changed my mind. She even suggested her moving out for a few days, not to give us some space, but to punish the kids to see that what happens is she moves out if they don't behave. How can she twist it so badly in her head? I was thinking all the time, has she any remorse, any idea what she has put me through. Is there any chance to cure her? But no, not one little fragment of awareness. Not even a tiny bit, other than the promise she will change..... again. I told her no more chances about 20 times but in the end when she left me she told me to please give her an answer before the end of the day.

One of us need out, my mental health will not survive this rollercoaster.

[square]

I guess she feels refreshed because she 1) got a story she can live with straight in her head (victim blablabla) and 2) she got an emotional response from you, proving in her head whatever she wants to prove. And she feels like she won this round. If you get emotional, she wins.

Too bad she sees it as a contest instead of a relationship.

[hhaw]

EM:

I'm sorry you're struggling.  It pains me to think of you crying and feeling overwhelmed by the stbx's relentless tactics which will only escalate as time goes on and you fail to comply with her demands.

How can you protect yourself and avoid your stbx?  Letting her speak to you will create stress and exhaustion.  Having to SEE her will create upset and tear  you down.


Somehow your'e going to need to figure this out or get away. 

I loved reading about the day you had with SG.  It was a breath of fresh air and I'm sure those more of those moments,while limiting the PD's access to you, will help you stay level.

I don't doubt you're Out of the FOG, never to return. I do worry the stbx's relentless access to you will break you down so you feel making deals with her will provide some kine of relief.  Let me just say again.....it absolutely WILL NOT bring you any relief.  It will only add to your exhaustion and undermine your mission.  Find a way to distance the PD and don't relent is my advice.

About the PD and custody and the girls being safe with her.....
it's my experience the PDs want less to do with the children IF they believe the non parent wants freedom and time without the children to do personal things, like be free and happy and perhaps involved with healthier people.  I'm not suggesting you say that to your stbx, but letting her think you want time away from the girls might make her thrust the girls at you like mad,which would be a good thing, IME.

It's always a mistake to let the PD know how fearful one is about the harm the PD can do to the children in private.  At that point, the PD will use that against you to gain your compliance so...... don't let the stbx know how much fear you have around her being alone with the children...... it will ensure she's blocking your having the girls at every turn just to terrorize and upset you, IME.

Breathe,EM.  Stop letting the PD get inside your head.  Nothing good can come of it, IME.  The stbx wants to talk about what she did to you bc she wants YOU TO REACT.  She'll blame you, point to your reaction and apply to her narrative without hesitation...... you'll feel worse.  She'll feel better.  It's a cycle and you have the power to stop it.

I hope she does move out for 3 days to punish the children. What a nonsensical thing for her to say.

[escapingman]

I guess she feels refreshed because she 1) got a story she can live with straight in her head (victim blablabla) and 2) she got an emotional response from you, proving in her head whatever she wants to prove. And she feels like she won this round. If you get emotional, she wins.

Too bad she sees it as a contest instead of a relationship.

Yes that's exactly my thoughts as well now I have had some time to think and wind down. It's not possible to stay completely out of emotions when a charade like that start, you wouldn't be human if you did. But she did say I must love her as I cried. As she will keep this kind of drama day after day until she gets her way I need out quicker than I initially thought. I am not sure if I trust myself if she continues like this, I can't watch someone behave like that. It freaks me out.

[square]

None of us expect you to be a wall of stone under that lind of onslaught. We've all cracked under pressure, believe me.

She abuses you, you have an emotion about it, she decides that's proof you love her. How messed up is that.

She'll always abuse you because she's twisted the effects of abuse into some evidence of love.

[escapingman]

It's impossible when she ignores every boundary. Lost out working all afternoon to her drama. I need out to a hotel ASAP and then search for a new home. I am soon agreeing to anything just to stop this.