Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents

[Sapling]

This book was reviewed by another member in September but I was advised to start a new thread so here goes:

I cannot recommend this book highly enough! 'Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents' does not specifically go into PDs but so much of what this book says is useful in dealing with PDs (who are emotionally immature by nature). This book also describes and addresses the emotional loneliness that primed most of us for close relationships with PDs.

One of the most important lessons form this book is how children of emotionally immature parents often respond to their situation by creating a 'healing fantasy' (if only I were [insert fantasy] then I would finally feel loved/seen/ok with myself etc) and then spend the rest of their lives trying to live this out. It also talks about the 'role self' we create in order to survive our FOO and how this interferes with our authentic selves.

The book describes the different types of emotionally immature parents as well as two main coping styles from children of emotionally immature parents: internalizers and extrernalizers. These descriptions were so insightful and helped me understand not only how my own (internalizing) coping style has shaped me, but also so much of the mistreatment I have experienced at the hands of other adult children of emotionally immature parents.

It provides strategies and examples of how to deal with and/or relate better to emotionally immature parents which are indispensable especially if anyone out there is dealing with elderly PDs who are deeply entrenched in their behavior and will not change. Honestly, this book gave me a so much to think about and reflect on, and and so much hope for in terms of future connections and relationships.

Finally, after all the truth bombs, there is a section on identifying emotionally mature people and seeking connections with them.

I just finished it and am about to read through it again slowly. If anyone else reads this, I would love to hear your thoughts  on here 

[LemonLime]

Hi Sapling,
I'm just copying my review from the other post.  I'm glad you liked the book too.  I found it to be one of those that is chock-full of very helpful information, and will also be reading it again.  I also love I found it for free in PDF.  Bonus!   I'm gathering quite a load of PD-books on my bookshelf!
I find that the more I understand what's behind someone's behavior, the less emotional effect it has on me.  So I am always seeking to understand, and this book goes a long way in that regard.  My goal is peace for myself.  The heck with the rest of these PD's.   I've tried to help them and they don't want it.   So I will hold them in compassion but that's where my obligation ends.

Previous post:
I just read the PDF version of this book for free.  I assume it's the same as the full book.  I found it quite helpful in understanding my FOO.

This book posits that there are 4 types of emotionally immature (EI) parents.    Mine fit the "Passive" type very well.   Not surprisingly, these are the type that do lots and lots of things right, but are very uncomfortable with intense feelings and confrontation (and they fly below the radar often).   Turns out that this is quite devastating to some infants/children.   I think it's safe to say that my sister was devastated by my mom, even though my mom scored very high in lots of the other elements of being a good mother.  And FWIW, my dad didn't jump in and save the day either.   For whatever reason he seems to have gotten off the hook in the child-raising department, as he was at work a lot.  We just didn't expect as much from him.

This book states that children of EI parents will be Externalizers or Internalizers.  By this standard, my sibling was an externalizer, and me and internalizer.
Might be genetic, who knows?

Anyway, the paradigm works for me.  It also discusses general emotionally-immature traits, and what to look for in emotionally mature relationships.  Who doesn't want more of those?
It's good to see some of this stuff in writing, even if some of it should be common sense. 

[Free2Bme]

Hi Sapling, LL ~

I read this a couple years ago hoping to understand my M.  She has some PD traits but I don't believe she is PD, but I learned a lot about her emotional immaturity and myself in this book (I am an internalizer too). 

M was young when she had me (18yo) and already had another child (my full bio sister) at 16 that was placed for adoption,  she then married the father (my father) at 16, had me 2 years later.  I think giving my sister away somehow stunted her emotional development, she doesn't have a lot of introspection.  I grew up an only child, which was lonely and exponentially so because M was emotionally unavailable.  She did many things right, but never protected me or prepared me much for life. But of course it was the '70s, lol.

I appreciate the post and the reminder, I think I need to revisit this book, although it is a painful topic.  Ugh... I think I'm probably still cultivating my internal fantasy.

[Sapling]

Thanks LemonLime for re-posting your review. Your recommendation was what made me order this book, so thank you very much. It has been indispensable in helping me understand my own story and my pain.

Free2Bme, I relate to what you say: "She did many things right, but never protected me or prepared me much for life. But of course it was the '70s, lol." I also found this book and the topic quite painful to read through, but honestly I am at a point in my life where I actually prefer to engage with the painful reality of my situation directly rather than the constant low grade pain of the 'healing fantasy' I was constantly trying to live out. I think this book is like a travel guide into more healthy and fulfilling relationships (firstly with oneself and then with others).

[Hilltop]

This is such a good book.  My mother falls into the passive category and my dad is spot on for the rejecting category.  In fact it's scary how accurate it is to describe my father.  My MIL falls into the emotional category although she doesn't have rages she just gets weepy and cries and poor me with the occasional angry outburst.

I haven't finished the book yet but I will be interested to see whether the rejecting category seem to even want a relationship, to me it seems like my father just doesn't enjoy our relationship and didn't as a child.  The saddest thing is I spent so much time being told to fix things when he was angry and giving me the ST when in reality he really just wasn't interested in trying.  Even teaching me to drive was too much, one lesson and he gave up and just said it was me, my attitude.  So much blame on a kid when in reality it was him and my mother pushing me to fix things.  It's so sick and twisted.  To this day they still blame me.

[all4peace]

I would add a vote of high approval for this book also. Super practical and helpful!

[feelingandhealing]

Having just finished reading this book last evening, I concur entirely with you

I cannot recommend this book highly enough!

It is one of those self-help books that can be read and re-read in order to learn more and to be able to put the learnings into practice. Some of the book's key items that resonated with me were: just because a person is your biological parent doesn't mean you have to keep an emotional or social tie to that person, and we can reclaim our emotional freedom by honoring our true self in our relationships with parents and others.

And I recently learned the author published a follow-up book in 2019 called Recovering from EIP. I trust that book is worth reading too and plan to get it and read it 

[Cat of the Canals]

I read this a few weeks ago and also highly recommend it.

Since I've moved away, my brother has been complaining more and more about my parents, and seems to maybe be coming Out of the FOG a bit. I originally bought a copy of Understanding the Borderline Mother to send him, but now I think I might send that and Adult Children of EIP, and suggest he read the Emotionally Immature book first. I think the fact that it doesn't focus on a particular diagnosis might help "ease" him into addressing some of the issues. (In the past, he and his wife have always been very quick to say that they've met PDs in their work, and that my mother doesn't seem "that bad.")

[lightworld]

I agree this is an outstanding and well written book, it was the first one I read when coming Out of the FOG. I'm now reading her follow up book, the one mentioned by feelingandhealing. It's equally good and goes on to give some practical tools to help reclaim your sense of self after being brought up by EI parents. Highly recommended.

[Boat Babe]

Having read this thread I have bought the audio version of the book. By the end of chapter one I was close to tears. It is so, so spot on.  Listening avidly whilst tidying the boat.

Thanks for the recommendation.

[blacksheep7]

I also highly recommend this book which I read  after Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.   Easy to read and understand.

Those were the first two books  I read  coming Out of the FOG  followed by others but they were the ones who were the ha ha moments that Finally validated  what I felt (being emotionally ignored by M & violent F) growing up at home and into my adult life.  I understood who my parents were and that it was not the «bad kids» connotation attached to us.

[SonofThunder]

I'm currently reading the book (slowly) and so will follow this thread and possibly comment as I follow along. I'm reading it to understand myself better, but possibly to understand my adult children better, as they grew up in my household for 18 years while I was being a caretaker in the FOG. 

SoT

[Tribe16]

I read this book cover to cover last weekend. I highlighted like crazy. I have been reading a lot of books about toxic mothers lately and this particular book was the game changer for me. Helped me to see that mom is the "driven" parent and dad doesn't get off the hook... he is the "passive" parent. At the end of the day, he was loving, but didn't really ever stand up for me when Mom was raging (or in her case, devastating me with silent treatment for days on end during my childhood).

I loved that this book points out that you could have had all the necessities, the food, clothing and shelter. You could have had a PTA mom and a Girl Scout leader mom. But you could have also had an emotionally abusive or emotionally unavailable parent. And there is where the people-pleasing, self-doubting, poor self-esteem personality of the internalizing kid is formed. These feelings have always been a part of me and I never understood where they really came from until my mom's stress level and maybe just aging has totally amplified her bad behaviors and all these feelings came bubbling up again and I needed to start therapy to figure out WTH is going on?

Anyway, this book has answered so many questions. And it is realistic - the sad news is that the EIP is not going to change. Any changing is up to us - and how we choose to show up in these relationships going forward. I feel like this is a handbook that I can refer to again and again as needed.

[Boat Babe]

I read this book cover to cover last weekend. I highlighted like crazy. I have been reading a lot of books about toxic mothers lately and this particular book was the game changer for me. Helped me to see that mom is the "driven" parent and dad doesn't get off the hook... he is the "passive" parent. At the end of the day, he was loving, but didn't really ever stand up for me when Mom was raging (or in her case, devastating me with silent treatment for days on end during my childhood).

I loved that this book points out that you could have had all the necessities, the food, clothing and shelter. You could have had a PTA mom and a Girl Scout leader mom. But you could have also had an emotionally abusive or emotionally unavailable parent. And there is where the people-pleasing, self-doubting, poor self-esteem personality of the internalizing kid is formed. These feelings have always been a part of me and I never understood where they really came from until my mom's stress level and maybe just aging has totally amplified her bad behaviors and all these feelings came bubbling up again and I needed to start therapy to figure out WTH is going on?

Anyway, this book has answered so many questions. And it is realistic - the sad news is that the EIP is not going to change. Any changing is up to us - and how we choose to show up in these relationships going forward. I feel like this is a handbook that I can refer to again and again as needed.

Thank you for reminding me that they do not change. That's the key to liberation for me. Once I realized that's uBPDm was always going to be like this (full metal waif) then I went from trying to change her (I know) to learning to manage my interactions with her. Absolute game changer for me.

[SonofThunder]

I'm reading this book slowly and am about half-way through.  Although I am enjoying the read and can relate to much of the experiences and teachings in the book, regarding my father and wife, there is a part of my emotions that believe the book is minimizing the traits to the term of 'emotionally immature', which I will refer to as 'EI' in the rest of this post.   

I sometimes feel that since these very difficult people (clinically disordered quite possibly) we deal with will mostly go undiagnosed, that the author is safely providing us an 'EI' label to apply to all these behaviors/traits in her book.  Sometimes I feel angry at the author's EI label, as I believe it diminishes the traits to a digestible term with a wide berth of severity in traits/behaviors that can be all lumped into the EI category.   

In chapter 2 (pg 36) the author makes a clear distinction between EI's and 'sociopaths'.  Not sure why she uses that term in comparison, as from what I can read in other psych places, 'sociopaths' and 'psychopaths' definitions are general terms in which specific diagnosable conditions may be associated with, and those two terms have been glorified/misrepresented somewhat by movies and books.  Both of those terms can be associated with Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is only one of the many personality disorder types.  Therefore I believe the authors use of 'sociopath' on page 36 is a poorly-chosen term. 

The trait she uses for 'sociopath' in comparison to 'EI' though, is spot-on for many personality disorder traits.  In fact, I believe the author should have used the term 'personality disorder' instead of 'sociopath'.  In her trait description (pg 36) for 'sociopaths' she writes "sociopaths may do an excellent job of reading a person's emotional vulnerabilities, but without the ability to resonate with the other person's feelings, knowledge of those feelings becomes a TOOL FOR PREDATION not connection" (caps mine). 

'Tool for predation' is for  many of us, the experiences with personality disordered individuals, as the PD craftily manipulates another person, using the tools of time, finance, sex, gaslighting, legal commitments, our own emotional vulnerabilities, third parties and MANY other traits found here at Out of the FOG to self-gain/self-soothe at the expense of the other person. 

Therefore again, I believe her use of 'sociopath' is the wrong term.  If I substitute the term 'personality disordered' in it's place, then I expect the rest of the book to stay slightly under the severity-scope of PD, which it does not.  Therefore again, I believe the author is misrepresenting (in a diminishing fashion) the traits of PD's by potentially recategorizing them into the EI term because it's a 'safe' term we can use because most of us are not qualified to diagnose a personality disorder. 

I personally don't desire to diminish the 'predatory' nature of my experiences with my uPDf and uPDw into the 'emotionally immature' category.  It's feels like a doctor applying a Band-Aid to a widely gaping and bleeding wound and saying "I'm sorry you were hurt, now see the receptionist down the hall on your way out". 

Again, I think the author is clearly describing some truly EI traits (more self focused but lacking predation) but she imo glosses over predation stories/traits to include them in her EI book.  Some of these story examples in the book are not just 'immaturity', but repetitive and predatory in nature for self gain/self soothing.   I will keep reading, but out of respect for myself and all my comrades here at Out of the FOG, I will not diminish the experiences we have with PD's. 

SoT

[Sapling]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

I did want to respond in particular to SonofThunder's comment that the term EI might be minimizing the seriousness of PD traits by using a more palatable term to describe them. I completely understand your concern and did feel like there were, at times, an oversimplification of terms. That being said, I do not think this is a book entirely and exclusively about PDs. I think the term EI can include nons too. For example- when I was codependent with uPDs I behaved in ways that were not emotionally mature. If I had kids, I imagine they would have experienced a level of abandonment that would need to be addressed later on. I feel this book is useful in concentrating on the pain caused by emotional immaturity to the child, and the way they might be affected by abandonment, rather than offering an accurate diagnosis or insight into PD behavior. It is also useful for understanding how different children will act out differently in the same FOO.

You've raised an important point about how positioning sociopaths against EIs recategorizes PDs and your critical reading is helpful to anyone who might be questioning their PD experience because of the confusion caused by these terms. Thank you again for your frank and thoughtful comments.

[SonofThunder]

Thanks for your comments everyone.

I did want to respond in particular to SonofThunder's comment that the term EI might be minimizing the seriousness of PD traits by using a more palatable term to describe them. I completely understand your concern and did feel like there were, at times, an oversimplification of terms. That being said, I do not think this is a book entirely and exclusively about PDs. I think the term EI can include nons too. For example- when I was codependent with uPDs I behaved in ways that were not emotionally mature. If I had kids, I imagine they would have experienced a level of abandonment that would need to be addressed later on. I feel this book is useful in concentrating on the pain caused by emotional immaturity to the child, and the way they might be affected by abandonment, rather than offering an accurate diagnosis or insight into PD behavior. It is also useful for understanding how different children will act out differently in the same FOO.

You've raised an important point about how positioning sociopaths against EIs recategorizes PDs and your critical reading is helpful to anyone who might be questioning their PD experience because of the confusion caused by these terms. Thank you again for your frank and thoughtful comments.

Sapling,

I agree with you fully regarding nons and thank you for your healthy discussion style on this thread.  I'm sorry if my reply was potentially misleading regarding my opinion.  In fact, I believe that main subject of the book (EI and the experiences of the children of EI parents) is NOT talking about disordered personalities.

Therefore the distinguishing difference the author makes between EI (non clinical disorder diagnosis) and disorders, is my reference example on pg 36.  On that page, I believe the author uses the word 'sociopath' to indicate a capably clinical disorder based on the predatory nature of the behavior.  I believe the author's choice of the word 'sociopath' is too-narrow a scope to use that word, since it is highly associated with social avoidant type disorders.  Therefore the rest of the book (other than the pg 36 reference) would be about the lesser-cousin of a PD, the non-clinical EI; a non-predatory personality, but very self-focused driven person and therefore difficult which with to live. 

With that said though, I believe some of the experience stories and descriptions of EI traits in the book, do indeed fall into the 'predatory' column, because they are:

1. Pre-thought/pre-designed using the known attributes and known situations of the target
2. Result goals are for gain of the predatory-type personality at the expense of the target. 
3. Repetitive in nature. 

Therefore, I believe that there is a mulling of behaviors/traits in the book on EI, that is glossing over some potential clinical PD behaviors.  In my experiences, the predatory behaviors require a strong toolbox adherence in order to protect the target, and mentally, I do not desire to give a predator-personality the grace of the lesser-cousin 'emotionally immature'.   I actually very much agree with 'predatory' in nature (my 1-3 above at minimum) being a dividing line.  Finally, imo the toolbox is helpful in dealing with EI (non) traits and traits of the disordered, so therefore the end result is the same in understanding the necessary actions/reactions that target (of either) may engage to protect themselves and begin healing.   

SoT

[Sapling]

Hi SoT,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position and hopefully my paraphrasing your comments did not misrepresent your views. I am not sufficiently informed about psychology to really agree or disagree on whether the author's use of the term 'sociopath' was too narrow a scope, but I can see why this was off-putting for you and I completely understand why you "do not desire to give a predator-personality the grace of the lesser-cousin 'emotionally immature". Point taken.

I still think this book could serve as great supplementary resource for those who, like me, have been raised by a uPD who has been enabled by a non. It aids us in being able to have our feelings about both parents validated at the same time. The main takeaways from this book for me were the validation of how it felt to unmet by both parents and the devastating impact that had on my emotional state and my life as well as my relationship to my siblings. The chapters on how different children react to EI parenting useful in understanding how different children react to PD parents. The Internalizer/Externalizer coping mechanisms listed in this book were incredibly important in helping me understand my FOO. I feel, these were the missing pieces of the puzzle that I required to heal and so I recommend this book with that in mind. While the Out of the FOG toolbox is a better resource for learning how to protect oneself from predatory behavior, the toolbox did not contain the above mentioned information about different coping styles and it did not emotionally validate the loneliness I felt at the hands of my enabling parent, which is not to be minimized.

You mentioned in a previous comment that part of why you were reading this book was to understand your adult children better "as they grew up in my household for 18 years while I was being a caretaker in the FOG." I suspect that if you persist with this book (despite the clear limitations of its defining terms) you could still get a lot out of it! Either way, I will look forward to hearing your views and I thank you again for turning an astute critical eye to this book.

[SonofThunder]

Hi SoT,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position and hopefully my paraphrasing your comments did not misrepresent your views. I am not sufficiently informed about psychology to really agree or disagree on whether the author's use of the term 'sociopath' was too narrow a scope, but I can see why this was off-putting for you and I completely understand why you "do not desire to give a predator-personality the grace of the lesser-cousin 'emotionally immature". Point taken.

I still think this book could serve as great supplementary resource for those who, like me, have been raised by a uPD who has been enabled by a non. It aids us in being able to have our feelings about both parents validated at the same time. The main takeaways from this book for me were the validation of how it felt to unmet by both parents and the devastating impact that had on my emotional state and my life as well as my relationship to my siblings. The chapters on how different children react to EI parenting useful in understanding how different children react to PD parents. The Internalizer/Externalizer coping mechanisms listed in this book were incredibly important in helping me understand my FOO. I feel, these were the missing pieces of the puzzle that I required to heal and so I recommend this book with that in mind. While the Out of the FOG toolbox is a better resource for learning how to protect oneself from predatory behavior, the toolbox did not contain the above mentioned information about different coping styles and it did not emotionally validate the loneliness I felt at the hands of my enabling parent, which is not to be minimized.

You mentioned in a previous comment that part of why you were reading this book was to understand your adult children better "as they grew up in my household for 18 years while I was being a caretaker in the FOG." I suspect that if you persist with this book (despite the clear limitations of its defining terms) you could still get a lot out of it! Either way, I will look forward to hearing your views and I thank you again for turning an astute critical eye to this book.

Sapling,

I agree with you fully that the book is a great tool in potentially understanding certain personalities that one has to deal with in life, and understanding ourselves as well.  I fully believe that the EI term and traits of EI's is fully applicable.  As you stated, I am not yet complete in reading the book. The book comes recommended from a variety of resources, so I am not in any way, critiquing your recommendation or review, but rather a specific issue I believe the book needs in further clarification.

If this book was the only resource a target-person (non) consulted, when dealing with a PD's behaviors, the target imo, would be a bit under-informed.  Therefore, I believe the book needs to spend a little more time differentiating between EI and disorders, so the reader doesn't just lump their potential PD person into the EI category and also researches the PD behaviors as well, so the non can make an informed opinion on what they are dealing/dealt with, and understand themselves better as well.  You have the knowledge of both EI and PD.  Did you come upon PD first and then learn of EI? 

I am so happy that you have gained so much from the book and being able to apply it to your life, in understanding yourself as well.  I look forward to completing my read of the entire book and may be able to also learn more about myself and/or others in my life.  I am currently doing a private study/investigation on how 2 out of 3 children (my 80 yr old mother and her 2 siblings) both married disordered husbands.  The 3rd child married a user, and recognized in year one of marriage and quickly divorced/remarried, but the two ladies (my mother and her sister) had/have long-haul marriages to disordered abuser-men.  I believe the EI issue is potentially at play in their childhood home, and coupled with the teaching and lifestyle in the era they were raised, helped to raise two caretaker-daughters who were a perfect fit for the needs of abusers. 

Thanks for the wonderful conversation,

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Sapling,

I forgot to add that I also decided to read this book, to educate myself on the EI=nondisordered 'cousin' of PD, to help me to further define and differentiate the uPD traits and uPD experiences that I and my adult children grew up with (my uPDf and uPDw), compared to EI.  Therefore I purposefully came into this book with the mindset of clear differentiation and didn't find much stated regarding the differences and what was stated was imo very pigeonholed as 'sociopath'.  Therefore also, I may have expected too much from the book in that regard, and when I read potential predation mentalities in EI as well, I then wonder about a muddling effect between EI and PD and the need for clearer differentiation.  But again, this book is not about differentiation and I would hope readers know enough about PD's to do their own research. 

I will continue to read and look for similarities in the experiences and traits of non's who were raised around EI's and PD's, in order to potentially notice and better understand my adult children and also my mother and her siblings.

SoT