older kids and honest conversations

[sonto92]

I have 3 children - the oldest is 19.  Over a year ago, he had a full blown panic attack and was curled up on the floor, saying he couldn't go back to my BPDx's house - he couldn't take it anymore.  He did this in front of my dad and my dad called me to let me know what was going on.  Later that same evening we had a switch in parenting time and he was supposed to go back.  I made some calls to friends to get some feedback and in the end, I told him he could stay at my house.  In classic fashion, the cops showed up - she was waiting on the street to take him home.  The cops asked him what he wanted to do - he said he wanted to stay at my house and that was what he did.  He lived with me for the rest of the school year and stayed until he was ready to move out in August and get an apartment on his own.  Not long before this incident, i found out from my younger son that the cops were called (by him) because my BPDx and current husband were holding our oldest son down on the floor trying to take his keys so he couldn't leave.  Middle son left the house and called the cops from the neighbors - I had to get a copy of the police report to verify if this was true, and it was - it was all in the report.  Somehow my BPDx forgot to tell me this happened   
All of this was in the past and the only reason I mention it now is it seems like now, a year later, he is reluctant to come over to my house and spends a considerable amount of time at his mom's, even spending the night over there.  He comes in to town and I hardly hear anything from him.  It seems kind of petty on my part to be up in arms about this, but I just don't get it.  He has seemed distant and I have been going back and forth about whether or not to talk to him about it.  I don't even really know what I would say - I know that hurt feelings on my part are underlying this.  He is an adult - I have always worked extremely hard to leave the kids out of the issues that their mom and I have had and I don't disparage mom or stepdad in front of the kids.  It still feels like I am continuosly fighting from behind and getting my ass kicked for taking the high road as a parent.  I have told him on several different occasions that he is an adult and he can choose what he wants his relationships to look like with both his mom and dad.  I am really struggling here.
Anybody have any experience with this? 

[Latchkey]

sonto92,

Sorry this sat so long unanswered. You've not posted much about this son. I think if there is any time for honest conversations, now would be a good time to start. Take him for dinner or a movie or to buy something for his apartment or his car--  and talk a bit and start to tell your story and let him know you love him and care for him. Be ready to listen to him without judgement.

That's all I can really offer. 19 year olds vary in maturity, but it sounds like he's been traumatized.

Best,
Latchkey

[notrightinthehead]

Could it be that he feels you did not protect him from his PD parent enough and is angry with you? I agree with Latchkey, I would try to find out from him what is going on.

[sonto92]

I have been talking this through with my family over the last several days and trying to get my head around it.  I had a strange event happen the other day after this initial post.  I had picked up his sister and he was at his mom's house.  He was talking with me about some plans he wanted to do with his sister that day and was REALLY vague and kind of sketchy about the details and none of it made much sense.  I asked him to stop by the house when he was getting ready to leave and he did not come over and didn't call.  His sister sent a text to him and he did respond to her saying that he decided to leave and was worried about his car breaking down, which is why he didn't come over.  He was clearly uncomfortable explaining all of this to me before we left and doing a "not so good" job of trying to, what i feel, was to lie about his reasons for wanting his sister to come along.  It's all so weird.  We are set to go on a family vacation next week and he and his girlfriend are going to be there, so we will be able to spend some family time together. 

[D.Dan]

Hi Sonto, I am the oldest of 4 to a uPD mother. I just wanted to share what happened to me at around your sons ages.

When I became a teen, I guess my mom's abandonment issues popped up. She changed the dynamic of our relationship from dictator/peon to bffs (buds is the next best description). She wanted my life and feelings to still revolve around her but she also started acting in a somewhat covert way. She used my teenage mind against me to her advantage. She became that voice in my head that I wanted to follow. The one that said I could be lazy, or irresponsible, that I should have what I want because it makes me feel better. As far as I know, all people get that voice as teens, it's part of growing up and testing boundaries, and realizing responsibilities. Questioning adults, forming my own opinions. She used that to confuse me.

All of a sudden she seemed like a nice person, especially when I wasn't living with her. She fed me believable lies about everyone else, including my siblings to get me to move back in with her. She told me to quit my job I hated, that I didn't have to go to school that day if I didn't feel like it, that I could do what I wanted while staying with her until I did find that imaginary perfect job (no actual work but high paying LOL).

I look back at that time, and realized that was a natural progression of my mind, but my mom took advantage and fed me lies I wanted to hear. I did move back in with her. It was the beginning of my 1 year of HELL! Worse than when I was a child. This forced me Out of the FOG. She waited until I couldn't just up and leave except to a homeless shelter before she started trying to destroy my autonomy. I felt like she wanted me to live in a closet and come out at night to clean like those house elves in Harry Potter. I wasn't supposed to need anything and she yelled at me everyday to bring her money yet to not get a job!?

I got away. I had to plan my escape and force myself to overcome that teenage voice that was a little self centred and self serving (completely normal).

I then noticed she did the same thing to my sister, and my brothers. She still offers to take care of all of us, especially when we NEED help. But it always comes with the price of enmeshment.

She was telling me what I had always wanted to hear from her while growing up, because as child, it seemed like she hated me for existing and as a teen/young adult, she suddenly wanted to love me as my mother. It's very confusing. I basically had to convince myself that everything she said was lies, I couldn't trust her. It was hard because I wanted to believe she loved me.

I know it's not the answer you're looking for but I thought maybe understanding what could be happening might be useful. Your sons are still young, still have that teenage/young adult mentality. It's not bad but it can sometimes be easily misled, especially if you tell it what it wants to hear. Even moreso if there are others adults that are trying to convince that teen/young adult to be more responsible then they want to be. It was easier to talk me into things than to talk me out of things. Especially if I wanted those things.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help.

[Magnolia34]

D.Dan I'm SO sorry about everything you experienced with your mother but I can't tell you what it means to have someone who experienced it to explain it.

Sonto92, this is so similar to what we're seeing with my DSS17.

He is the oldest of 4 and was REALLY close to his dad (my DH) prior to his parent's divorce. BM left for several years and he was always the scapegoat. When she would come home and they would go visit her DH would have to drag him to her car (she was accusing DH of alienation at the time and the court forced DSS to go). He would call DH crying and upset because he and BM had gotten into a fight and he wanted to leave (some of that was manipulation on his part to avoid consequences but some of it was genuine). BM moved home last summer and began her campaign for full custody and started with DSS. Like D. Dan I think she made him feel important. She depended on him for emotional support, said he was "the man of the house" etc. He picked a fight with me one evening, ran off to BM's house and was gone for 8 months. As a result of this we were then required to pay BM a settlement to "offset the cost" of having him with her full time (never mind that she was in violation of a custody agreement). I'm 100% positive that she told DSS that she needed him to stay with her so she would get the money DH had to pay. Luckily, we got a parent coordinator involved who saw what was happening and helped us work everything out (mostly).

DSS is back now and has been doing okay. But during his time with only her I saw SO MANY of the same things you've both described. Santo92 you've talked before about the incessant referring to all things "my mom," we're definitely seeing that. You can tell he still feels like he has to validate her.  She didn't make him go to school and we received letters that he's truant (and mostly flunking out) she's not encouraging him to get a job so he sits around and plays computer games all day. He rides his bike a REALLY long way to hang out with kids he probably shouldn't in an unsafe area. He's already talking about moving back in with her when he turns 18 so he can "help with rent." I'm wondering how long it will take for that to blow up.

Anyway. It's hard to watch because DH routinely says "that's not the kid that left my house 8 months ago." I'm worried that he won't graduate, will have no work ethic, will get involved with a really bad crowd (if he hasn't already). My DH and I have gone to a therapist and talked about DSS specifically quite a bit. We've come to the conclusion that pushing him is just going to cause more of a rift between he and DH. We're trying really hard just to make sure he's safe when he's with us and that he and DH have ANY shred of a relationship left so that if he needs/wants help in the future he'll come ask.

Sonto92 the only advice I can think of is just to make sure your son knows he can come to you if he needs help. And D.Dan, thank you SO much for putting some light on a situation that can be so hurtful and confusing.

[sonto92]

Wow - I just want to give a huge thanks for the great feedback on this, especially you d.dan.  Both of my boys (now 19 and 15) at some point have used this line with me during some of our family discussions - "it's my job to keep my (siblings) safe".  My 15 y/o brought this up when we had a discussion at my parents which resulted in him starting to escalate and bad mouth everyone present.  it INSTANTLY shot up a red flag for me because when my oldest was bearing the brunt of his BPDM's fury, he used to say the same thing.  My 19 y/o always used to talk with me like he was speaking from the role of a parent and i had to steer him in the direction of "that's not your role".  I can't even begin to tell you how helpful it was to hear from you Ddan, because I feel like my 19 y/o son is getting sucked back in to the "nice mom" trap and i keep asking myself "why in the hell would you want to do that?"  I came across a note that my oldest had written to his mom when I was cleaning out my son's room about 2 months ago.  The note was probably written about 2 years ago, but it was terrifying.  He is telling his mom he is a horrible kid and that he is so lucky to have the best mom in the world, and I hope you can forgive me for being a terrible son.  For the record - the oldest son has been the one kid that hasn't been in any trouble - he's not a risk taker, and is an all around polite young man.  He excelled in school and was most certainly a rule follower.  When i read this letter I was horrified and sad, because their is no reason that he would ever have to go to those lengths in a letter to his mom to make-up for any perceived mistakes.  I know I mentioned earlier in this thread that BPDM and Stepdad were holding him down to get his keys and the police were called (by the 15 y/o) and, for the life of me, and I can't imagine WHY THERE WOULD EVER be a need for them to do that because of anything he did, ignoring the fact that it is absolutely wrong in the first place.  My oldest suffers from anxiety and I have always felt like he would be just a step or 2 away from having a nervous breakdown.  Which gets me back to my earlier question - why the hell would you ever want to go back? 
ACC1984 - thanks for the great feedback as well.  My middle son is spiraling in the exact same fashion - no work ethic, no ownership in his actions, failing school - he's doing summer school and will miss our family vacation for the first time in the 15 years that he has been alive - a trip that, even though there has been tension in this co-parenting situation, ALL of the kids look forward to and they talk about it all year until we are ready to go.  I am glad that you came to the realization that the harder you pushback, the more distant he will become.  All of my middle son's abusive rantings have always been triggered by me putting my foot down and holding him accountable for his responsibilities at school. 

[xredshoesx]

the courts formally removed me from my uPD mother's custody the summer between 9th/10th grade.  this was after living with her ALONE very briefly for the first time since she left my biological father- from the time i was 7 up until then her parents took care of me and when she got remarried and came back to 'claim' me i was in middle school so i didn;t need the same level of care and she was in MOTY mode around her ex...

i won't go into detail about the charges or how her ex husband got custody of me because she was unfit and my biodad had given up at that point.  fast forward about two years and she's trying to get me back, MOTY act again (this was because there was back child support $$$ involved for her).  she fought the termination of her parental rights and won.

so there we were, me being close to 17 and her being the 'BFF' or 'bud' that some of the other posters described.  even though i was on probation for my own behaviors she lied for me when i didn't go to school or make curfew because she wanted to be seen as fun and hip.  she encourage me to party, drove me to bars, and looked the other way when i came home TORE UP as a minor.   when i got suspended, we made cookies.... she didn't even seem to be bothered that i would need to repeat my senior year and helped me sign up for trade school...

this lasted until the checks stopped shortly after i turned 18.  she flipped almost OVERNIGHT -then i was the devil and she had to cast me out.  i started my first adult version of NC about 4 months after i turned 18 and it lasted until i was almost 21.  i moved home with her/her parents (the entire family dynamic is SKEWED) and lasted a little over a year in the chaos and i've been NC since leaving shortly after i turned 22- i'm almost 47 now for perspective. 

depending on where your son is developmentally it sounds like your ex is doing something similar- trying to win his confidence and trust in order to get something- whether financial or emotional who knows, but please do keep the lines of communication open with your DS. 

[Penny Lane]

D Dan and redshoes, thank you SO much for coming in here and explaining what might be going on. So often I feel like we are all in the dark about what's going on at the other house. Even having a sense of what the other parent might be saying gives me better ideas about how to counteract it. Seriously, I think you've helped a lot of children of the people on this board.

Sonto92, I am thinking of you. It seems like you're having a really hard time right now but it seems like your kids are really lucky to have you even if they don't realize it right now. Good luck.

[sonto92]

Xredshoes - thanks for jumping in on this thread. I am keeping my fingers crossed that my 2 oldest boys won't have to wait until they are significantly older before they can make the connection that their BPDx mother is a master manipulator. It is so insidious at this young age (especially my 15 y/o ) because developmentally they can't process it.  Their mom can not do anything wrong. 

[athene1399]

Sonto92,

We have the same problem. Dad (my bF) is always the bad guy and BM can do no wrong. SD feels like she needs to protect and help BM, no matter the cost. SD is 17. BM randomly tries to keep her for more time so she can file for custody to get $$$. Everything she does to manipulate SD goes back to BM needing $$$. SD doesn't see it. It is so frustrating.

D.Dan and Redshoe, thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[sonto92]

Interesting that you would make the connection to money. I'm wondering if this is coming into play in my situation as well. I had a meeting with BPDx and family's therapist not too long ago. My 15 y/o made the decision to move to his moms within the last month (long story). For now, our custody arrangement hasn't changed- it is 50/50. We are meeting in August to discuss next steps. Her lead in for the session was "15 y/o is worried that dad will swoop in and demand to take him during his (my) parenting time" , sparing no time to stoke the flames of distrust. I spoke to her about a week later to let her know that I changed health coverage for the kids (deductible to copay) and her first comment was that it will cost her money in reduced child support (which I had called beforehand and found out that it wouldn't change) She was on the phone with our support person from the county immediately after I told her. The irony is that I told her in the middle of May that I was going to do this). It takes a $25 dollar copay to take the kids in rather than a ton of money out of pocket.

[sonto92]

I did talk with my 19 y/o son this evening- shared with him that I feel like he has been distant lately and I was wondering if there was something he needed to talk about. Fairly quickly he was having an anxiety attack and was hyperventilating on the floor. He was diagnosed with anxiety about 2 years ago and hasn't been doing anything lately to help him with his anxiety. It was a great conversation today. I did my best to take the focus off of his mom and keep it focused on getting in to see someone who can help himself with his anxiety.

[athene1399]

I am sorry to hear his anxiety is that bad. But hopefully he will decide to see someone to talk about it. Maybe it will help him learn a helpful coping mechanism or how to identify his triggers. It sounds like he is worried about something. I hope he is able to sort it out. Anxiety can be rough.

With your ex's comments about the insurance, it does sound like she is concerned about the money. Even if switching insurances made her child support payment drop,  the focus should be on what's best for the kids and not how much $$$ she is getting. Technically the same money goes to the kids, just up front from you for the insurance instead of our of pocket at the doctor's visits. So it seems selfish she's concerned over the support payment. Unfortunately that is our reality too. Everything revolves around money with BM.

[Magnolia34]

Sonto 92, Athene 1399

Thank you for your insight. I would also agree with the money connection. I don't know if it's the selfishness that manifests itself in that form or what but the biggest issues we've had are centered around finances. Our BM convinced SS17 to live at her house for almost a year in violation of our time sharing agreement. Because of that we had to pay her monthly. I don't think for a second that she didn't tell SS he had to stay with her or she wouldn't be able to pay rent (in a house she can't afford and has no business living in). SS was the scapegoat for a very long time but she jumped on the chance to turn him into the golden child when it meant she would benefit. He feels the need to protect and help her (has already said he's moving in with her when he turns 18 to help her pay rent). It took us a year to get him back... they never could give a valid reason for his leaving. "He doesn't like the back and forth" was as much as we could get. When threatened to be held in contempt by the court appointed parent coordinator BM blamed everything on SS "You had better go back, you're going to get me in trouble and cost me more money." It was very sad.

[sonto92]

acc1984 - Your experience with having a child leave in violation of a stipulated order is the position that I am in as well.  My 15 y/o made the decision to move to my BPDx's house about a month ago.  There is a longer back story, but this is supposed to be on a trial basis and we are going to re-evaluate this in August.  I'm wondering how long it will take before my BPDx makes the move to change our parenting order.  It was interesting that you noted that as far as reasons go, there wasn't any that made it clear that it was a good idea for son to change houses.  My 15 y/o is convinced that I am a horrible father and that i screwed up as a dad, but when you ask him why he feels that way, he doesn't have a reason or examples to back it up. 
On a sidenote, my oldest did get in yesterday to meet with his doctor and discuss some of the issues he has been having with his anxiety and he felt really good about the appointment.  My BPDx has a instilled a mental health/medication stigma fully in his head and he discussed this with me at length prior to his appointment.  I told him that at 19, he is in charge of making his own decisions on what he feels he needs.

[Latchkey]

On a sidenote, my oldest did get in yesterday to meet with his doctor and discuss some of the issues he has been having with his anxiety and he felt really good about the appointment.  My BPDx has a instilled a mental health/medication stigma fully in his head and he discussed this with me at length prior to his appointment.  I told him that at 19, he is in charge of making his own decisions on what he feels he needs.

That is great news. I am so glad he is doing better and you are there to support him and that he likes and trusts his doctor.

[athene1399]

acc1984 and sonto, we had the same issue with the custody violation. SD starting spending more time with BM and then every time we went to pick her up there was an excuse why she had to stay. We got it back on track for the most part, but it's hard and we can't always stick to the schedule. BM always has family in from out of town or her older kids visit and we're supposed to make up the missed time but generally never do. There's always another excuse, and if we try to be rigid with the schedule we look like the bad guys. I hate to say it, but it's a bit of a relief that we aren't the only ones dealing with this (which is messed up. No one should have to go through this).

I am so glad the therapy appointment went well. I hope it helps. 

[Magnolia34]

Sonto92,

I'm glad your oldest's appointment went well! Unfortunately, I don't have any good advice for you and your other son except to keep trying... see if you can get the court to order counseling (our PC recommended a reunification specialist although she never followed through with the referral) the more people, therapists, even your son can see that you care about him and the things his BM is probably telling him about you aren't true, the better. I could really see when we got to the end of everything this spring SS and even BM were just beat down. They had used every excuse and blamed everyone they could and the PC wasn't budging. Maybe also keep track of how he's doing in school? SS was with BM from the end of last July until the beginning of this month and his grades were AWFUL. We received letters from the school that he was truant... it made it hard for BM to argue that her house was the best environment for SS. She did try to say that his grades fell and he was having issues in school because he had been having more contact with DH, but no one bought that. She actually looked at the PC and said "I believe what is best for my son is that he have no relationship with his father." In our case, her claims were so outrageous that they didn't get her far.

Good for you for empowering your 19 year old to take charge of his own mental health! The hold BPD parents can have over their kids is unreal. People keep saying "they'll grow up and realize what happened, they'll see the parent for what they are." That's just such a hard thing to hope for when you're in the middle of it all like this. 

[Findingmyvoice]

Sonto92,
My son is 13, turning 14 in a few weeks.
I have had some similar struggles with him, he is very protective of exBPDw.  He is passive aggressive towards me and his sisters,  especially after visits with his BM.   
I am afraid that if he were allowed to decide he would choose to live with BM.
He wishes that we were still together, i think he resents me for leaving.
This would all be reinforced by exBPDw.

I attend a support group that is intended for men that have been involved in domestic violence.  Most are there because they are the offenders.
Some, like myself, were accused and attended because of a mandatory order.  I continue to attend because everyone in the group is open, honest and progressive.  there are good counselors that facilitate and at times I can offer advise or get advise from others.

One of the men in attendance last week is in his mid 30's, his mother was diagnosed as Bipolar and Borderline as well as Schizophrenic.
His parents stayed together despite the abusive relationship, but he grew up resenting and being angry at his father.
No one ever explained to him that his mother was mentally ill, he blamed his dad for "setting her off" he thought that if his dad was nicer to her and gave her what she wanted that everything would have been O.K.
He grew up with anger and violence problems and ended up as an abuser himself.
He told me that he wished someone (his father) had explained things to him. 
The group counselor (who counsels abused children) also recommended that I have a conversation with my son about his mom's mental illness. 

My son has said similar things to me.  He has given indications that he thinks I treated exBPDw poorly by not giving in to her, which of course resulted in rages, blaming, accusations, threats, swearing and name calling in front of the kids. From her, not from me.
When kids are constantly exposed to this I think they begin to believe the words of the abuser. My son has also blamed my daughters (when they were being physically and verbally abused) for being the cause of the abuse.

It is important that your son is taught the difference. PDs are skillful at reversing the victim and offender.  They justify their actions, they don't take accountability.
They gaslight, they blame and they are relentless.
I had a good conversation with my son about this on the weekend.  I explained the story about "my friend" from support group to help him identify his situation and to help him understand he is not alone. (much like this website helped me).
I talked to him about mental illness.  I empathized, acknowledging how confusing it must be for him.
Especially when he is told bad things about people that he knows are good and treat him good.
You can do this while still maintaining compassion for your ex.
I told him that I know she loves him and is doing her best.  I also said that she is not a bad person.
I acknowledged that she sees things differently.
I also said that she didn't ask or decide to be this way, but reality is that she has a disorder.  She has to work to get better.
I also explained that we had to leave so that things would get better.  That eventually it will be better for everyone, even his mom.
Constant exposure to arguments is damaging to him and his sisters and i don't want them to end up like "my friend" from support group with serious problems later in life.
The only thing that I could do to protect them is leave.

I think that showing him I still care about his mom's wellbeing, that I understand how he may be feeling, and overall that I care deeply about him and his sisters will help him come around.
He did not want to have this conversation and fought against talking about it.  he does not like to talk about how he is feeling or express his anger towards me (although I can tell when he is angry because he gets very passive-aggressive).
I also acknowledged that he may be angry at me for leaving or for causing his mom emotional pain.
At the beginning of the conversation I said "I know you are a smart kid and I think you are old enough to understand what I have to tell you".
I think this helped bring down his defenses a bit.

I guess I am saying that there are ways to talk about this with your kids without blaming or accusing your ex. or making your son think poorly about her.
Also acknowledge that things you did may have caused him to be angry (not blaming his mom for the situation) but also your very important reasons for your actions. Children don't want their parents to break up, it is upsetting to them and they may want to blame someone for that, and you can guarantee your ex will be blaming you.
Take accountability for your decisions and that alone will help them realize the difference between you and the PD.
Be prepared to hear some things that you may not want to hear.