Setting boundaries makes ME feel like the high conflict person

[Poppy]

I have a question for you guys about boundaries and the resulting conflicts with other people.

I've been listening to my intuition regarding people i meet or work with. I've started to speak up when I feel I'm being treated unfairly or even simply asking for someone to explain a comment or action when I feel uncomfortable about it. I tell people what I think would be fair in a situation, I say no when asked to do things I don't want to do. I'm not apologetic about my point of view. Not rude either but rather, clear I think. And I'm open to someone else's point of view too, but that does not seem to be reciprocal. At all!

Really... people are NOT having it. I find myself in situations with quite a few people all of a sudden that make me feel I'M the one who's creating conflict.

Normally I'd think: If someone has a lot of issues with other people, it is only reasonable to think they have a big part in that themselves, right? Or is mostly their 'fault'.

So is it? Am I the conflict creator here? Or is it that I'm a magnet for these kinds of people? The ones who want things exactly their way, who want me in a subordinate role. And when they discover I'm not really that kind of woman (anymore), they flip out?

Your thoughts and experiences with setting boundaries and how people respond please!

[11JB68]

My experience is that the very people in my life who tell me I should stick up for myself, learn to say no, etc....they thick I should do that with others...but not with them!

[clara]

People who are used to getting their way don't know how to react when they don't.  And it's not just PDs.  For them, it's easier to expect others to change rather than question their own behavior as possibly causing problems.  They don't want to think they're the problem, so if there's a problem naturally it has to be with you!  I've seen this behavior repeatedly in narcs, not necessarily NPDs but people who are simply extremely self-involved and self-important.  The thing is, it's not illegal to set boundaries, it's not unfair for you to protect yourself.  But to these people, it absolutely is.  You don't have the same rights they do.  Which makes it even  more imperative that you set boundaries, otherwise they'll make your life miserable.  After awhile, they get tired of bumping up against your boundary so find other people to bother.  I knew one narc who actually quit a job because she got tired of people resisting her. She actually said she was concerned, at first, that SHE might be the problem, but then she thought--no, it's not her!  HA!  I almost laughed in her face.  I had the misfortune of having to work with her for over 10 years and she eventually quit our department for more or less the same reasons.  She couldn't face the fact that she created conflict and people didn't like her.  In a way, I felt sorry for her (and she was fine as a casual friend, but as a co-worker she was a horror).

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Poppy. 11JB68 nailed it on the head. A lot of people will tell you, if you ask them, that, yes, of course they want you to be assertive and speak up and say what you think and want and need......but not with them. (they leave that last part out).

My advice is to consider the context - each relationship is different. Each relationship has a different power dynamic based on several things (an example is the power a boss has over their employees, the boss can say things that the employees can't).

I'll speak from my own experience. When I started doing what you describe, people did flip out too. So the people that I expected reciprocity / equality with, the people I expected a give and take that involved each of us doing giving and taking, those relationships were hit the hardest by my new found assertiveness.

The people with low self esteem did no want me to change or assert my own wishes, and they made this a confusing time for me because they could not (would not?) be clear about their own stuff.

It will depend on each person and what you hope to have with them in the future.

Relationships that hit the rocks when someone becomes more assertive, are like that boat on the sea. Rough waters come, do the people on board know how to navigate the choppy waters or do they only want to be in the boat together when it is smooth sailing and sunny skies? Hence, the idea of the 'fair weather' friend.

There are times and places where being assertive isn't your only option for feeling heard and validated, but as a survivor of narcissistic parenting, I would say that recovery from that, involves having times where you are heard, you are validated and you are respected when you assert yourself. It gets easier for you and hopefully there are people in your life who, upon some reflection, can see that the new you, is good for them too. It's a good thing when people respect each other enough that disagreements and differences are respected.

Some people in your life may not know how to communicate with the new you. It will be up to you to decide how to handle your relationships - on this board I see people work hard to keep some friendships going and that is their choice. When I've known someone for under a year and they freak out that I've asserted myself, I don't work very hard to keep that relationship with them going. But someone in your life for a long time that you know really well, may be someone you do very different things to help your friendship with them through this.

Freud and Jung would say that your assertiveness makes other people who want to be assertive, envious. I suspect that in some cases that is probably true. But also, some people just want everyone around them to be a doormat. And at the end of the day, if they just can't see their way to valuing you, their own particular motivations are not really super important when its their treatment of you that matters most.

My own psychoanalysis of it is that when I think of a few people who got angry with me for asserting myself, I wonder if it was because I was asserting my authentic self. Real needs, real emotions, real sentiments, and they themselves are walking their own path and are not yet ready to see that they are themselves in the fog (they hide their real emotions, or are frozen or codependent etc), so someone else in their life coming Out of the FOG is upsetting for them. I wonder if we underestimate what our own recovery looks like to others. When we feel like our recovery is taking too long, I wonder if others, who are in the fog, wish they too could get back in touch with themselves in the ways they see us doing. I know some people who don't do self-care at all.

My self care, and the fact that I prioritize it, seems to irritate them.

We are each on our own path though. You cannot walk their path and they cannot walk yours. And it sounds like you are walking more firmly on your path and taking more solid steps. Which is great! We have our own path to walk, and no one can ever know our whole story. Their reaction is a reaction to one element that they see, they do not see the path we have walked to get here.

I am looking forward to seeing what others write to you about this here.

[NotFooled]

  When I started setting boundaries with a  group of people, they became very ugly towards me.  It took me a long time to realize what had happened and I drove myself nuts second guessing myself.  This particular group of people were not emotionally or mentally stable and I was one of the enablers in the group who always entertained and did everything for them.  Once I started to set clear boundaries all hell broke loose and I was the villain.  It took me years to figure out I needed to set clear boundaries especially with people who are prone to take advantage.

A normal well adjusted person isn't going to freak out on you if you set a personal boundary but the ones that act out, those are the ones you really need to set strict hard boundaries with

[Griffen]

The only people who will have problems with you setting boundaries are the people who benefited when you had none. That means the people who are not reacting well are, to some extent, abusers and very used to getting their own way.

Hold firm. Don't give in to their temper tantrums. MC all the way.

[Wilderhearts]

Poppy, I really know this feeling.  In recent years a pwPD used examples of conflicts I'd had with high conflict people to try and convince me that I was the source of all conflict in my life, including conflict with her (the PD).  It helps me to remember that the supportive people in my life practice accountability when I stand up for myself and it leads to resolution, but I have to show accountability too.   People with immaturity and low self-esteem also struggle to show accountability, not just pwPDs.

Professional relationships need to be handled much differently than personal ones, especially if you're on your career path and this isn't just a first job in retail. Treesgrowslowly hit on the most important part - assertions need to be authentic.  If you want to reflect on whether your behaviour is contributing to conflict, you could examine your motivations, how your assertions affect other's & team objectives, and if you're still being humble and acknowledging the value of others' work while asserting yourself. 

My T taught me a valuable lesson - people whose first reaction is to look at themselves usually come to the conclusion they're not the problem after deep reflection.  People who are usually the problem have the first response to assume they're not. 

A good friend of mine uses the term "kind assertiveness" which is something to strive for.  I find it's safest to practice becoming more assertive in personal relationships first, where I'm loved unconditionally. Then I practice being assertive at work when I feel I can do it skillfully (although it can still cause me much anxiety).

[treesgrowslowly]

My T taught me a valuable lesson - people whose first reaction is to look at themselves usually come to the conclusion they're not the problem after deep reflection.  People who are usually the problem have the first response to assume they're not. 

I have to thank you Wilderhearts for sharing this. It spells it out so well. When I think about the people in my life that I've tried to make a good relationship with, all of the most spectacular drama and heartache and hurt has come from my expectations of people who never think its them. Or my heartache after being told to bond with someone who never thinks it's them.  Like their brain just can't go there at all. It's never them. They can do something so obviously theirs, by choice and action, and then deny they played any role at all.
Geez I think back and some of them seem to believe their actions happen without them choosing them at all. Being assertive with them brings out their meanness or coldness. They can be very hurtful.
They said they wanted to play fair but They really can't play fair can they....

As soon as they do something that needs to be addressed, so that trust can be restored or work can get done, there they go, blaming everyone but themselves for the thing they did.

I have no success creating peaceable relations with people who never think it's them.  As someone recovering some of the turf I ceeded to others by way of codependency during childhood development, I'm probably envious of their ability to deny that they could maybe you know...change?

Codependency involves so much contorting and accomodating to bend for others that these unbendable folks seem enviable at times. I say that fully aware of the fact that their version of assertiveness leaves them without any authentic relationship and emotional safety or vulnerability. I'm not actually envious of them because this ignorance is not bliss unless you want a life of anger and drama for yourself which is what they always seem to have.

In the end of course I pity a soul who cannot see that it is them. Your post got me really thinking about this in a truly helpful manner.

At this point in my own life, people who never see themselves as the problem don't get my attention anymore. Unless they are actually small children and therefore learning and developping themselves. This behaviour is age appropriate in childhood. I couldn't fault a 4 year old for not know what is and isn't their fault. An adult though....they can be very hurtful if they are still behaving like this.
Thanks!

[bluprint]

I can relate to this. When I started learning about PDs and the need for personal boundaries, I started to realize that my friendships were very problematic. We all had very weak boundaries.

For example, it was common for one friend to discuss her personal issues, only to have someone else tell the rest of the group about without that person's knowledge. I made some weak attempts to assert personal boundaries, like stating "I don't think this should be discussed", only for friends to coax me into doing it, and I let myself be coaxed. I had friends who would cross-interrogate me over my supposed personal issues without my asking, and I would go along with it, writing it off as concern and not presumptuousness.

There were poor physical boundaries too - friends expected me to commute one-two hours to hang out with them, while all they had to do was walk five minutes to the restaurant we were meeting at. They would make me more pliable by saying I could sleep over anytime so I won't have to come home so late. This feigned concern over my personal safety won me over for a while, but of course it was all about convenience for them.

I never felt comfortable sleeping over, I always struggle to fall asleep in unfamiliar surroundings, and my friends would leave personal items like sex toys lying around, or leave the bathroom door open whenever they'd do their business. I didn't want to look ungrateful so I just laughed it all off.

Since my attempts to assert personal boundaries failed, I had to go to the extreme, which was to cut them off. It was awkward of course, since they had some books with me and I had to pay back money, which I did over the bank counter. This showed me how enmeshed and unhealthy my friendships really were, with personal belongings and money floating around, and today I take pains not to put myself in a similar situation. No more borrowing stuff or money, because people can use that to oblige you to keep talking to them, when you clearly want out.

These former friends of mine are angry and hurt over my actions, and I don't blame them. It made me look like an HCP because I wouldn't explain myself or meet them face to face. In their eyes, it was abrupt and uncalled for.

[survivorcat]

I can relate to this very much, and the responses to your questions here are really insightful and helpful. I am recovering from a long period of subtle IL abuse followed by a real rough patch over the last two years. It sent me into counseling and I began to see how problematic some of my other relationships were, because I lacked boundaries. It was necessary to abandon a couple of friendships/groups in addition to working really hard to change how my marriage worked. I certainly did not expect how solving the IL problem exploded into all areas of my social life. I do think it's a fantasy to think there will be no conflict when laying down boundaries. However, the people who don't respond to boundaries no matter what degree and tend to have not-great ethics—known to lie on occasion, kind to some and not to others, self-interested to a fault, arrogant—are now very, very frustrating. For example I have a friend whose husband teases with innuendo and makes fun of my choice to not hug every time we see each other. I can say "um, no, knock that off" "Um, not funny", or my body language is clearly not up for a hug (walking away)—but the behavior persists. I just can't see this person anymore, at all. The effort has not been worth it in every circumstance and for every boundary breaker. I have had some backlash to these endings, just like with the ILs. Some conflict is normal, I hear and I have been desperately afraid of it. I do think I'll hit quieter times as I get better at boundaries and listen to my intuition as I meet new people. I hope. I have a few friends left, so that is awesome, and I know which ones to cultivate.

[TurkeyGirl]

I only came across this topic just now. I just wanted to let you know that you can be very proud of yourself. You're doing a great job to recovery. Don't let others startle you, it's so important to know yourself (and to act on it) to protect from PDs.

Thanks for sharing, it's giving me strength.

[Wilderhearts]

I'm so glad you commented, TurkeyGirl, because I never saw TreesGrow's post and it is even more relevant to my life now than it was a few months ago.  You've given a very apt description of a painful experience with a friend a few months ago.  It's given me some peace and acceptance that, even with non-PD'd friends, we didn't cause their lack of accountability, can't control it, and can't cure it (not even with our codependent behaviours! haha).  It's better to make peace with having more distance in the relationship.  Thanks for sharing.

Any progress with the situation, Poppy?