Out of the FOG

I have a uBPD/uNPD sister. I'm still not sure if she has a serious mental illness or is deliberately and purposely abusing people by her extreme behaviour. Is it both mental illness and abuse? It is something that I've been questioning myself about for a long time. 

When she is calm and has money she can be quite joyful, enthusiastic, charming and loving. At other times when she is in a crisis and consumed with anxiety, worry and stress she can be quite vile, acting out, sobbing, screaming, shouting, swearing, seeking money and suicidal. Thankfully she has never self harmed.

She believes she has many chronic physical health issues that never get better so that she says she can't work. I don't know if they are all real or imaginary. She can be quite a waif. Then I feel terrible for not believing her but she is not consistent with her illnesses and sometimes behaves as if there is nothing at all wrong with her. She doesn't always follow the medical advice from the world class hospital she attends. She thinks she knows better than all the doctors what is wrong with her and that they have misdiagnosed her.

She alienates people by her extreme behaviour, twists history around, makes things up, constantly plays the victim when she is the abuser.

She is intelligent, well qualified and experienced but has no regular job or income.

I used to have hope that she would change but now I don't think she's capable of changing without professional mental health support, which of course she doesn't think she needs. I have accepted that she won't probably ever change and that I can't change her. I care but can't cope. I say to myself now that she is just someone that I used to know.

It's so sad to see her repeating the same old patterns of thinking and self destructive behaviour. She can be so angry at everyone and everything. She says she's so lonely but I can't get her friends or the life she wants to lead. Only she can do that.

It can be a constant pity party being around her. Nothing is ever good enough. No one can do anything right for her. She says no one cares about her when she's had so much money to help her from our elderly, frail, vulnerable parents. There is a deep hole inside her that can't be filled no matter how much love, time, money, kindness, advice or care we all put into it. It's never ever enough.

I follow the teachings of Kris Godinez (who specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome), Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield on Facebook and YouTube. I have learnt such a lot from them all.

I've learnt a new phrase
"Be a lighthouse not a lifeboat". It's something I try to be now.

Best wishes

guitarman

Guitarman, you have been so patient, have endured so much, and your care and compassion for your sister is admirable.  Your wisdom is so helpful to so many, you are a Lighthouse! 

We had dinner with friends yesterday, this saying of being the Lighthouse instead of a Lifeboat came up.  It makes sense in so many relationships, PD's, adult children, struggling relations. 

It can be hard to watch others struggle, but we hinder their growth when we throw them the lifejacket and offer the lifeboat.  It is hard for me, having compassion for those I love, and then to sense resentments (when restraining self from being the Lifeboat), but do see it as part of my own growth, to get beyond my fear of rejection and codependent tendencies to rescue.  To sit still in this discomfort of mine, watching loved ones flail and flounder and allow them the space to wallow in their own discomfort until they find their own solutions. I try now to ask questions rather than offer opinions or solutions. 

Summer Sun

guitar man, the description of your sister sounds so familiar, so similar to my experiences with M and F.

For me I think it is both. Whether the abuse is part of the mental illness, an expression thereof stoped mattering to me at some point. I had to learn I cannot change/fix F or M, I cannot cajole, entice or force them to do it for themselves either. However the abuse and mental illness are intertwined, the only thing I could do is step away and protect myself so I wouldn't get ill myself again.

M was dxbipolar and uNPD, and when she was comitted to a psychiatric ward 5 years ago I talked to her psychiatrist about my own role. She was so amazed I was still involved, most family members walk away out of sheer self-preservation. I was considering going NC at the time and she encouraged me to do what was right for me. M needed professional help and finally got it, even if it had required being committed.

For me being a lighthouse also means standing tall for ourselves.

I really like that saying "Be a lighthouse, not a lifeboat. Thanks for sharing it Guitarman.

As for your sister, PDs have a high comorbidity with other PDs and mental illness.

In many ways it doesn't matter what the specific diagnosis is and it feelstome as if you are seeking justification for her behaviour and your continuing involvement.

Your sister behaves as she does and you have a choice about how you respond to it. It is really hard to accept that we can't change others and that often we have to let go.

I feel a lot better now that Iam no contact with my FOO. I had to accept that my truth is that they are manipulative and abusive and to understand that the best solution for me is to stay away from them.

I don't know what is best for you but being a lighthouse is a terrific thing.

Guitarman, I am sorry for this difficult situation with your sister. It sounds like you have been very thoughtful about considering your role in her life and what you can tolerate. It also sounds like you are doing your best to work on yourself and the things you can control. All of that is quite admirable considering the stress of this family relationship. I am impressed too that, though you are uncertain of the causation of your sister's difficulties, you are firm in your belief that you do not need to bail her out.

While my relationships with PDI's do not mirror yours exactly, I too have asked the "mentally ill or abusive" question. What follows is not a clinical examination of mental illness, but my own reflection informed by some research and my, admittedly biased, personal experience. I believe that emotional development continues through life. When someone's development plateaus for extended periods, it makes me wonder why they are incapable of self reflection. In the long-term healthy, happy people tend not bog down in maladaptive behaviors to the detriment of their relationships, finances, and health. So when I observe someone in that kind of rut, and I don't observe them working on developing coping mechanisms, that's interesting to me. I also find it interesting when someone claims to want one thing but her actions seem counter to that goal. It suggests an inner disharmony that is not compatible with strong mental health.

If your sister is abusive, that abuse could be incidental to having poor self regulation and poor stress management -- lashing out or tantrumming, if you will. It might also be calculated on a moment-by-moment basis to help her feel better, or it could even be a long-term strategy of control. As I've observed my family members, I've suspected that they've used a combination of unplanned, short-term, and long-term strategies. I doubt, however, that they consider anything they're doing to be abusive. They probably believe they are entitled to the things they are trying to manipulate others to do for them.

Tempting though it may be to dwell on the causes of the behaviors we observe, we'll never get inside the heads of our PDI family members. I think your strategy of being the lighthouse is the perfect solution-oriented approach to protecting your boundaries. I'm wishing you the best as you continue that commitment.     

Thank you for all your comments.

Just venting. 

I've calmed down now after a short visit from my uBPD/uNPD sister yesterday. Thankfully she didn't stay for long.

She was doing a lot of projection, swearing and raging but not as bad as she has in the past. She tried to push all my buttons. I could feel myself getting angrier and angrier. I felt like screaming and shouting at her but I didn't. We were having a circular conversation but I realised what was going on so stopped taking part.

Any perceived sign of weakness about me she will try to exploit and use against me. That's why I never share anything personal about my life with her. She quizzes me so that she can have some ammunition to use against me. She's done it to one of our siblings in a very cruel and vicious way.

Anything I said she twisted around and was making things up about what would then happen next. I've seen this behaviour so often before when she goes on the attack. She made threats to upset me about things going on in the family. If she followed through with all her threats she could be very dangerous. She could make up false allegations which she's already done before.

I'd not heard from her for weeks. The last time I saw her she told me she has heart failure. She told me that it was even worse now. I said that it must be very worrying for her, trying to validate her feelings, but that wasn't what she wanted to hear. I don't know what she wanted to hear. When she's in an angry mood nothing I could say would ever be right.

She says that I don't care about her otherwise I would call her. I don't call her because I don't want to be abused as I never know what mood she is going to be in. If she calls me I usually answer and listen to her many issues.

She's obviously terrified about her heart condition and lashing out at anyone who is nearby. I've seen this behaviour before so I shouldn't be surprised.

Maybe she wanted me to give her lots of money and tell her that everything is going to be alright.

She's trying to provoke me to shout at her so that she can then become the victim. It's the Narcissistic Cycle of Abuse where the abuser turns everything around to become the victim.

Recognising the behaviours doesn't always make it easier to cope with by being the target of abuse when the raging starts but it helps to know there are things not to do and how not to prolong the abuse.

I stood my ground and calmly answered her back on a few occasions which only inflamed her more. I don't think she was expecting me to do that. Maybe she expected me to quietly take all of her abusive comments like I've done so often before. She was itching for a fight. She was determined to inflict her pain and suffering on others. She had so much pent up anger waiting to be released.

She brought up the last time I refused to give her any money for food and said how uncaring I was towards her then. She didn't mention how much money she'd already been given over many years. I've been told not to give her any more money and I didn't.

I don't know what the answer to this nightmare is, apart from going NC with her. She'll never change. I don't think she's ever capable of that now. I used to think that maybe she was.

I could feel broken and upset by her and become a gibbering wreck but I'm determined not to be. I have to behave with calm compassion knowing she has serious long term mental health issues. It's not easy.

I can see the signs of her going downhill again, being helpless and hopeless, feeling lost and abandoned. I hope I don't have nightmares about her. I usually do after I've been in contact with her.

Everything she said came from her disordered mind. She must be in a terrible state full of anxiety and worry. She's not rang me to apologise, she sometimes does. I won't talk to her if she calls. She can talk to the answerphone instead.

If she does have an emotional landslide and is in a crisis state she'll probably blame me because I dared to talk back to her and upset her. It's usually what happens after an angry episode. She has to blame someone for her own behaviour.

I'm calmer now. It takes several hours or even a few days to feel centered again. She didn't become suicidal. She left before that happened, still shouting at me. Maybe she recognised how upset she was getting and left.

My feelings vary between compassion and anger. I feel compassion because she may have a serious mental health issue then anger about how she treats people who try and be helpful towards her.

Sometimes I feel that I am done with her but then feel I shouldn't feel like that in case she becomes suicidal again. It's a constant dilemma.

I could go on and on. This is what happens after every time I see her. I need to analyse what happened and debrief. I'm pleased that I remained calm and didn't react negatively to all her provocations and abuse. It seems I'm still in the FOG.

Best wishes

guitarman

Guitarman,

First of all, I am so sorry. Every encounter with your sister sounds so very painful.

Second, I know in the past you've said that you can't go NC with her, that there are reasons you need to remain connected to your sister. But, honestly, are these interactions benefiting HER in any way? We all know how destructive they are for you, but they don't seem to do her any good either. I mean, you're not giving her money or a place to stay (and good for you!). From your accounts, it seems like you're just giving her an opportunity to rant and vent at you--which may be satisfying for her but is harmful for you.

What if you just didn't open your door to her?

Thanks for your reply. I've had a few great days and am feeling much better. If my energy is low it's not so easy to cope with my sister when she's raging.

If I don't let my sister in she has threatened to call the police or social services because of my own mental health issues. So what, let her call them. I'm not afraid. She tries to intimidate me. It's abuse.

I realise I have choices to let my sister in or not. I don't let her in if I know she's in a bad, angry, accusatory, raging mood but I don't always know how she's going to behave.

I could ask her to leave. I could call the police or ambulance which I've done several times before. She knows that and sometimes challenges me to call them, trying to test me and I do call them if she's very bad or feeling suicidal.

Thankfully she doesn't contact me as frequently as she used to. Maybe it's because she knows I won't give her money which I still find so very hard not to do especially when she's pleading with me and sobbing. She tries to push all my buttons.

I've had a good week although it's been stressful. I've not heard from my sister since her last visit.

Things aren't as bad with my sister as they have been in the past. I have to be grateful that they aren't. However I can see the signs of her having another meltdown soon.

Best wishes

guitarman

As predicted my uBPD/uNPD sister is in the middle of a meltdown.

She called me not long ago. I've not seen or heard from her since the last incident.

She says she's in hospital because of her heart failure, high blood pressure and other chronic conditions. She's under so much stress.

I was trying to find out what has been going on but it was difficult to get much sense out of her as she was raging.

It seems she went for a regular hospital appointment and they have kept her in over night. She says she's dying. I can't always believe what she says as from past experiences she's lied to me about being admitted into hospital.

She wants money. She says she can't cope. Her benefits are being reduced and she can't cover the shortfall in her rent.

She was on the attack blaming me and the rest of the family for how she is now. She was saying how uncaring we all are. She's had so much money from the family to help her in the past.

She says she's given up and hopes to die. It's all so sad.

I asked her if she's in touch with her social worker. Of course that inflamed her even more. I was trying to be a lighthouse not a lifeboat.

I'm calm but was shaking and wondering what is going to happen next, as ever.

I've tried to call her adult children but they aren't answering. I've spoken to my siblings so that has helped me to get a reality check from them. They listened to what I had to tell them and they aren't going to give her any money.

She won't talk to my siblings. So I get triangulated. She asked me to call them and her adult children. I don't deal with any of her financial matters any more. I'm too weak and give in to her demands.

When my sister feels this way she either feels suicidal or feels that she is going to die. She becomes hopeless and helpless. She gets so scared and frightened.

If she's telling the truth she's in a safe place under the best treatment in the world so I shouldn't be so worried. The doctors will be doing their best to help her. I won't be going to visit her.

I care but can't cope. I've got so much stress in my life already apart from my sister's concerns to worry about.

I just hope that one day she gets the proper professional long term intensive mental health care that she really needs. I can hope but it's probably never going to happen unless she has a life threatening incident where they section her for her own safety. It's the care pathway that many have to take in order to get the right professional help.

I've calmed down and am trying to think rationally.

She's reached out to me to help her. She knows I can't give her any more money and I know I shouldn't.

I just hope she doesn't visit me this week sobbing and wailing and talking and shouting for hours and hours about how uncaring I am. I'll stay calm and won't shout back at her. It's what she wants me to do but she'll try and push all my buttons to try and make me get upset. I'll be Grey Rock and Medium Chill.

This isn't easy even after all these years of witnessing her turmoil and torment.

I'm going to bed soon. I hope I can sleep and don't have nightmares about her.

I have to turn "What if?" into "What is". She's safe. She's being taken care of.

Best wishes

guitarman

Guitarman,

I'm so sorry you're going through this, but can I level with you, as one Waif Survivor to another?

DROP THE ROPE.

Nobody wants to talk to her.  Nobody "cares" - they do care, on some level, but they're sick of the drama and demands and have bowed out, backed out of the room, have gone MIA, and have become Sir Not Appearing In This Film.

YOU are the easiest mark, therefore the one she'll turn to.

What would happen if you STOP?

Just stop.  Drop the rope.  Block her number.  Not allow her into your apartment.  Not get sucked into her never-ending drama of non-existent medical problems.

Yes - she is a human being, but she can become *somebody else's problem* and NOT yours.

This might sound harsh, and forgive me if it does, because it's the truth I know:  the more you feed it, the more it keeps coming back.

Nobody else is feeding her.  Nobody wants to deal with her - not even her own adult children.

So what the hell do you get out of all of this?

Nothing but grief.

Let the medical system deal with her.  Let her social worker deal with her.  Let the system do its thing and *stay out of it.*

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER, IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

For the love of you, *please* let go - you're not her carer, her confidante, her helpmate - you're just the easiest person to USE - and she'll keep using you as long as  you provide something.

Money, an ear, a trip to the hospital, a meal, a place to crash, a place to *vent*.

Please be a lifeboat to YOURSELF and forget about her - I know it's hard, but you're the one who got the lifeboat, stocked it with supplies, put on your life jacket and handed her one.

She threw it overboard and punched a hole in the bottom of the boat, which has now sunk, and she's treading water - oh look, YOU have on a lifejacket!  I'll just climb on top of  you and YOU can keep me afloat, while I push your head under, trying to save myself, while I drown you and complain about it later - you didn't try hard enough to stay alive, and it's SO SAD, feel bad for me - and dammit, that bastard didn't even put me in his will!  Where is my money?  How will I go on my next adventure, be it shopping, a trip, or obtaining food?   :blink:


She does not care about you - she'd rather see you in pain - or worse - suffering, and tell you *you brought it on yourself* because you don't think about HER needs, so it's karma.   :no_shake:

In a rare moment of complete honesty, she might tell you that you *deserve* it, for all the hell you've visited upon her, while you're thinking, "WTF!?!?"" - and trying to hide it. 

She *delights* in the pain she brings to those closest to her - and only cares about herself, what comes next, who she's going to get it from, how she's going to *exploit the next resource*.   :blink:

YOU are the resource she finds easiest to exploit.

Think of it this way - your sister is a tiger in a cage, and that tiger hasn't been fed in a while.

Do you call Animal Control, to get that tiger into an animal sanctuary, where it can be properly cared for, or do you say, "That poor tiger!" - and unlock the door and offer yourself to it as lunch?

You've been conditioned to be lunch - and you are NOT.

Be your own lifeboat.  You've got the tools.  You've got the supplies.  You've got a life jacket.  You're set for smooth sailing, to calmer waters.

Your sister - like unBPD Didi - will create chaos, confusion, drama, life-threatening illnesses *that may or may not be real and are NOT YOUR PROBLEM.*

Do YOU call your entire FOO and demand they pay attention to that wart on your foot, and claim it could be "serious" or even "pre-cancerous" or a "concern" that could have far more dire consequences, and require life-long attention?

Of course not.

You either get some stuff from the pharmacy or go to a doctor and it's no big deal.

And may even have a humorous story about it, later - "I went to the foot doctor, and boy, was it funny!"   ;D

Your sister will NEVER have a story like that - it's all mired in drama, no facts, and a lot of her unreliable narrative.

Can you trust her - no.  You can only trust her to reach out when she needs something and try to fuck you over with her *emotional blackmail and abuse.*

If I can get out of the quagmire I was brought up in - you can, too.   :yes:

Changing your thinking can be hard - but once it REALLY sinks in that this person  *absolutely does not care about you, other than what they can USE you for, get out of you and BLAME you for, in the process* - it gets easier.

Please be well - and be STRONG.  Please, at least, consider my words and shore up your boundaries.

You do not need to live at her mercy.  Your life is YOURS.

Please start thinking about going forth and just seizing the damned day.   8-)

:hug:

 :yeahthat:

Let me add my own metaphor: your sister is a rabid dog.   Now nobody loves dogs more than me, and god knows I pity the pup who contracts rabies: after all, the dog is sick and it's not the dog's fault. BUT... that doesn't mean I have to go up and try to pet the dog, or feed the dog, or adopt the dog.   I'm sure we all agree that's a bad idea.  But the only healthy solution is to call animal control and let the professionals handle the rabid dog.

Guitarman, you have the heart of a lion and patience of a Saint.  You have done a remarkable job at being a Lighthouse.  Your sister only sees you as the Lifeboat though as others have pointed out. 

She asks you to call her siblings and adult children?  Can you at least put up a boundary there?  Avoid being drawn into triangulation.  "No, their YOUR kids, you call them."  No JADE.

You mention you have enough stress in your life, without your sister?  Sometimes, we have to put ourselves first.  Our oxygen mask before young children. 

It doesn't mean we don't care, we don't love, it just means we need to care for ourselves, as others are not "capable".  I have had to do this, I will not sacrifice myself for those that only use me and grind me down to dust and then have the gall to call me dusty.  They may be ill, but I am not the cure. 

:bighug:

Summer Sun

Thank you all. I really appreciate your comments. I need a reality check.

My uBPD/uNPD sister is never going to change. That has been a huge mind shift in my thinking about her. I always had some tiny hope that she would.

I've got to stop thinking that she's going to change and that somehow I can help her. It's so hard to turn away from someone wanting to jump off a cliff next to you. The guilt in watching them try is tremendous. I have to turn away. It's something I have to do.

Little by little things have changed for me, not as much as I had hoped. I thought by now that my sister would be more stable and leading a full productive life with a regular income.

She's exploiting my caring nature. She always has done. I am an easy target because I don't want to be uncaring I suppose. I wouldn't let anyone else treat me the way she treats me so I have to ask myself why I allow her to do so and I don't have an answer.

She's afraid she might be dying but I can't cure her. If she got lots of money she would probably make a miraculous recovery, so maybe it's financial problems she has not physical health issues. I just don't know any more.

She wants money and was shouting "For God's sake I'M YOUR SISTER!". It's as though she's entitled to everything and I'm supposed to help her out whenever she hasn't got any money because of her supposedly poor health and inability to work.

I feel good today calm, stable and centred and in a happy mood. I think it's because that I didn't get angry when she rang and I stayed calm. I've not called her to find out how she is and she's not called me. I presume she's alive, yes of course she is. If she calls I may not talk to her. It depends how I'm feeling.

When she is in a crisis my mind goes straight back to the worst times with her when she was causing so much havoc, turmoil and destruction.

I'm thinking of the future and of the worse case scenarios and I shouldn't. One scenario would be her turning up homeless expecting me to accommodate her. What a nightmare that would be.

There are professional people that can help her. They SHOULD be helping her. She is their responsibility not mine.

I have so much stress in my life that I don't talk much about here. Sometimes I'm in excruciating pain. She thinks she's my only concern. In reality she's a very small part of my life. She's only one person. She is huge in my thoughts though.

I can't go full NC with her because of my living situation. I realise that I can call the emergency services if I need to and I've done that before.

It's been a hard, difficult lesson to learn that I can't change her. I can only change and control how I react to her. This isn't easy and it's tearing me apart.

Best wishes

guitarman

That was the same lesson I had to learn with unBPD Didi - she was never going to change, never going to care, and never going to think of anybody but herself, so I had to change myself, the way I handled her, and the way I thought of her.

She was no longer everybody's victim - she was a *manipulator* who wanted what she wanted, when she wanted it, and five minutes later, she'd want something else, but not know what it was, and expect me to figure it out for her, find it, get it - and it would always be a disappointment, and *surely* I could do better next time, and the time after that, and the time after that, ad nauseum.   :roll:

That might help - seeing your sister as a master manipulator, and you're the easiest person to use.

What you do is make yourself USELESS - no money, no food, no meals, no venting, no complaining about her health.   :yes:

And NO "pop over"  visits.  Don't let her in.  If she won't leave and starts making a scene in the hall, call the police.

Personally, I wouldn't let her into your living space, PERIOD.  From now on, I'd insist on meeting her in public, at a coffee shop.  She's less likely to lose her shit in public, but if she does, you can get up and LEAVE.

Venting - Medium Chill, all the way.  Oh.  That's something.  You don't say.  Gee.  Gosh.  Hmmm.  Wow.  I don't know what to say... - you get the idea, but there's more in the Toolbox, and if there are specific situations you need Snappy Answers for, but nothing seems appropriate, just ask.   8-)

Griping about her health?

Always refer her back to her *doctor* or pharmacist.

"That's a shame.  You really need to speak to your doctor about that."

If she starts complaining he/she doesn't understand or is incompetent, stick to, "Well, I don't know what to tell you, but I'm sure you'll figure it out."

Money, a meal, food - if you stop having her over, meals won't be an issue - that's why I suggested a *coffee shop* - no meals available - but money?

No is a complete sentence.  Don't JADE.  "I can't do that."  "I can't help you."  "I can't spare it."

And remember, you can leave at any time, even if you're just sick of listening to her or looking at her frowny face, every time you tell her, "No."   :)

After a few attempts - or maybe one - where the New Rules are in place - in public, she gets *nothing* but a cup of coffee (or tea), you've become as boring as a bucket of wallpaper paste and as useless to her as lint - something interesting will happen.

You'll drop down a notch or two on her list of people to use.  You'll no longer be the easiest, so she'll just move on to the next person, then the next, then the next.

That's just what they do - and if they run out of people, they always manage to find new marks, somewhere - even if they have to join a church, or become more active at the church they're a member of,  aka *visibly in pain/having difficulties at services*.   :aaauuugh:

There's no low they won't stoop to, IME.

The discard feels *weird* - on one hand, there's peace and quiet, just like you wanted.  On the other, you're waiting for the other shoe to drop.  And on another hand (why are there always more than two hands, when PDs are concerned?   :doh:), you're *hurt* and maybe even a little angry that you were so easily replaced, and possibly a little resentful, too.

That's normal.  There will be some anxiety - but it's okay.  You'll work through it and be *fine* - eventually.   :)

And please remember - *any* threats of suicide, *call emergency services immediately* - even if you have to leave the table to do it.

If the first responders need to confirm she threatened suicide, do just that - she can deny it all she wants, say she was kidding, oh, she didn't MEAN it, and *you're* the ones who take things far too seriously - it will also make you FAR less attractive as a target, because the target *fights back.*   :ninja:

She doesn't want to fight - she wants to WIN.  Having to explain herself to paramedics, and you slipping out and ditching her, after telling them what she said - that's not winning.  That's just
*embarrassing* and *humiliating.*

But also necessary, for your self-preservation.    :yes:

Another thing that's very helpful is to start putting yourself, first.  She's got you cast as a bit-player, in your own life - that's got to STOP.

Your needs, wants, dreams, desires and daily necessities come FIRST.  Your health comes FIRST.  Your happiness comes FIRST.   8-)

That's not selfish - that's what normal people do, every single day.

You've GOT this, Guitarman!   :cheer: :cheer:

If I could get out of the hell Didi tried to create for me - a hell that was only getting worse because she was getting older and even  Waifier - you can, too.

And it all starts with realizing they won't and can't change, the situation is intolerable, and you deserve MUCH better.

:hug:

Thanks for your insight and support. I know you've been through a similar situation yourself.

Just venting.

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me yesterday evening. As usual she wants money. She says if she doesn't get it she'll be evicted.

She said "I'M YOUR SISTER. I'M FAMILY".

My siblings won't give her money and neither will I.

She doesn't know what to do but said that she's going to approach a charity for help. I suggested that she speak to her social worker.

I remained calm and agreed with her that it's a terrible situation that she's in, validating her feelings.

She can't afford where she is living. It's a rented two bedroom flat with only her living in it. She says she can't afford to move.

Maybe she could get a lodger, if her landlord agrees. But who would want to ever live with her? She would hate it as she would have to be on her best behaviour all the time. It would probably take weeks to find someone.

I could give her money. Anything for a quiet life. It won't solve any of her problems. She'd want more again next month.

She says she has a cash flow problem. There's no cash flowing her way! That's the problem. Her benefits have been reduced and they no longer cover her living costs.

She said that our father wouldn't like to see her like this. He died worrying about her. She tries to push all my buttons using his memory to taunt me and make me feel guilty for not helping more.

Now I fear her visiting me pleading for money to help her. She's been on her knees before begging and imploring me to give it to her. She's been shaking in the foetal position on the floor crying and whimpering. I can't ever forget that.

I'm torn between giving her money and not giving into her demands and being called by her uncaring. I care but can't cope.

I know of a carer whose teenage grandchild has gone to prison for nine months for obtaining money with menaces from her. They were making all sorts of threats towards her.

This is torment. My sister torments me until I give in. It's been going on for years. I can't solve all her problems with money. I've done it before and it's never worked. She still wants more money.

I know I've got to drop the rope. That phrase was in my head as I was listening to her. My siblings have. They live much further away from her and she doesn't visit them. It's easier for them to cope with her demands.

I don't want to start feeling resentment towards them for not helping or rather enabling her. It would be enabling her.

I wish her social worker had a plan that my sister followed. She needs help. She says she can't cope. I know she is at rock bottom when she admits that she can't cope. She sounded so pathetic and sad on the phone. She could become psychotic and delusional from all the financial stress.

When I'm in this situation I get panicked. I'm on edge all the time. I can't think straight. I'm worrying over something that hasn't even happened yet but potentially could. She'll threaten to harm herself and become homeless. It feels like I'm the only one that can help her. It's hell feeling like this over and over again.

My rational mind has deserted me and gone into overdrive. I need to be rational and calm. Breathe slowly. Turn "What if?" into "What is".

I need someone from outside my family to help her. I don't want to be involved in her life any more. It's torture. I have no resilience left.

I've calmed down since I wrote this and had an almost enjoyable day. No phone call from her yet.

Best wishes

guitarman

I'm glad you're feeling better - and WELL DONE on how you handled her on the phone!   :applause:

It sounds like she's going Full Metal Waif on you.  Poooooor her!  Only YOU can fix problems she doesn't *want* fixed - she just wants MORE, when she wants it, and she'll keep upping the ante until you give in - she's *used* to you eventually giving in, so shaking her is going to be extremely difficult.

UnBPD Didi thought she'd get a nice hospital bed in our living room, if she just played sick and helpless long enough, and then I could treat her like an infant and wait on her, 24/7, which is what she wanted.   :aaauuugh: :barfy:

Instead, she died alone in Hospice, in the company of strangers, and never even got her final last digs at me, because I wouldn't visit.

So it CAN be done.  You just have to remember to look at your surroundings and realize *this is worth fighting for.*   8-)

Then take a good look at yourself in the mirror.  Smile at that man, and tell him, "YOU are worth fighting for!"   :yes:

As I said before, if she shows up, don't let her in.  If she makes a scene in the hall, call the police.

If she threatens suicide, call an ambulance and let THEM deal with her.

That scene with her in a fetal position, whimpering on the floor?  That would have gotten the reaction of a very calm, "You can either stop that right now, or you can explain it to the paramedics.  Your choice."

You'd be amazed how fast she'll stop because she was *acting* the whole time - it's like when they instantly turn off the waterworks - and you're horrified to discover there were *no actual tears.*

Yes, they will do and say just about anything to *get their way.*

Stick to your guns - NO.  You're sure she'll figure out something, but you can't help her.   :ninja:

You can also end the call too, if it's going to be nothing but continued pleading for money. 

Make a deal with yourself - if she asks more than once, tell her you've got to go and *hang up* - then don't take her calls for the rest of the week.

You're giving her a time out - that's the *consequence* of her bad behavior.   :yes:

Yeah, the idea of her getting a roommate is laughable - she'll probably wind up evicting them in the first week and blame THEM for all sorts of non-existent problems, which will somehow all become *your fault* because if you'd just given her money, none of this would even be an issue.   :???:

You've got to have very FIRM boundaries, when it comes to your sister.  The boundaries *protect* you from her *exploitation.*

You're a MAN, not a RESOURCE.

You're a lot stronger than you realize, you know.   :yes:

You really are - you went from a complete doormat (her carer, going to that carer's group, which really did nothing to benefit you) - to realizing she's a lost cause, and being able to stand up for yourself in saying, "No."

That's what you have to keep doing - and if she's going to try to push all your buttons, you can *end the call.*

"I said no.  This is no longer a discussion.  Goodbye."   :ninja:

I would *definitely* not let her in, and insist on meeting in public.  If she's going to *abuse* you in your own home, she loses the privilege of being invited over, or walking in the front door. 

I'd also consider blocking her number, if I were in your position - and moving, when your lease comes up.

If you're anything like me, you just made a face and said, "I hate moving!"   :tongue:

But at least allow yourself to give it a good think, before you toss the idea completely.

Wouldn't it be *nice* to live somewhere where your sister doesn't have the address, or it's just too difficult for her to get to?

If that made you smile, you can do a half-hearted apartment search, just to see what's out there.

You don't have to commit to anything - you're just testing the waters, so to speak.

What you need to remember is that YOU have all the power - meaning YOU control access to  yourself - and she has NONE.   8-)

And you'll realize you're gaining ground in your own personal recovery, when you stop being stressed out and start getting *pissed off* - and find yourself doing nothing but rolling your eyes when  you're on the phone with her.

You *will* get there - we all do, eventually.

You can do this.   :cheer: :cheer:   :yes:

You have to - you're literally battling for who controls your life, and it's a battle you MUST win.

:hug:

Thanks I know you are right. I'm feeling better today although I had a nightmare about my uBPD/uNPD sister.

You've been through so much as well. I don't think anyone else really understands how traumatic this can be unless they've been through similar situations themselves. It's why I post here so others can relate to what I go through. I have a voice here. I was silent for so long growing up not knowing what to do. My parents didn't either. On so many occasions we were all crying together after a traumatic incident feeling scared and helpless.

My sister acts like a child and wants to be looked after then in the past when I did things for her she says she's an adult and doesn't want to be treated like a child. She can become so helpless and hopeless wanting someone to solve all her problems for her. 

She can be quite an actress and very convincing. I've got suckered into her helpless routine so many times before. However I've silently and calmly stepped over her whimpering on the floor before, ignoring her.

I've often said that she's going to end up a lonely old woman with no friends or family because she alienates everyone by her behaviour. She can't see that.

She blames everyone else for her behaviour and misfortune. I keep telling myself that she's very intelligent and resourceful. She'll work something out without my intervention. She'll turn on the charm and eventually get some poor man to become her life partner.

It feels like I'm always taking two steps forward and then one step back. Progress can be difficult.

Best wishes

guitarman

Dear guitar man I'm so sorry you've been going through all of this yet again. I am totally in agreement with woman interrupted on all of her advice for you.
I too have the ' I'm family!' card played. This is when they want something. I've learned to be strong and not to be reeled in, as I was in the past, countless times.
I'm lucky I don't live in the same town as her. I have some geographical protection!
Yes; we are raised to love and protect family, but NOT if family ties are consistently and ruthlessly abused. She knows you well. She grew up with you. She knows she's hurting and angering you and causing you to have insomnia. She's aware that in order to allay these feelings; you've given in to her demands before. So she's trying again. No thought, of course, of love and protection for you. It doesn't cross her mind. The only person on her mind is her. Same with my sister. When we first realise that, we go through a kind of bereavement. Yet we become healthier and more able to live authentically.

Giving in to her demands would in the past have to given you some short term relief. She might have thrown some emotional honey your way for a time. Or she might not! The sense of entitlement is huge and it's scarey. Whatever we do, they will still feel wronged. I've come to realise that. So I've taught myself not to care, and in doing so I've cared for myself. Give yourself that unconditional love that she is so incapable of. Nurture your inner child. Protect him, and keep strong.

"Emotional honey" yes! I've had so much of that before.

I realise that I have to nurture myself more. It isn't easy when someone is potentially threatening to harm themselves or is spiralling downwards again. I then start thinking that if only I'd done more this wouldn't have happened, which is deluded thinking, trying to fix all the problems that she has caused in the first place.

Hopefully my uBPD/uNPD sister will reach out to someone else. She usually finds someone else, a new best friend.

I know I've reached my limit. I have to listen to myself. I've done more than enough for her over the years, decades in fact. She's never going to change. She hasn't changed even after all the support she's received from everyone.

Best wishes

guitarman

Remember the three c s,

Your didn't Cause it.
You can't Control it.
You can't Cure it.

Remember those three C.S.  and never ever ever EVER blame yourself for any of it.
EVER!
We've been programmed to do this, but we can stop it! We always could.

They, and only they, are responsible for the choices they make or have made, in life. When they made those choices, they didn't consult us. We were not listened to. We were discarded and ignored. 

Sending best wishes.

I posted this sometime ago. It's something that makes me laugh.

WARNING

I can only please one person a day. Today isn't your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.


Best wishes

guitarman

Haha 😂I love that quote! 
I'm going to remember that one!  Thanks guitar man, take care of yourself. 😊

Nanotech the fourth C could be Care for yourself more.

I know you are right. I didn't cause all my sister's difficulties she is now experiencing. I've got to keep reminding myself of that. I don't know why I ever thought that I had. I'm not to blame for her problems. I've been conditioned over decades to think like that.

She is the cause of all her issues not me. They are hers not mine.

She thinks that if she had yet more money all her problems would be solved. She'll always have problems, even if she had more money.

I had a discussion with one of my siblings recently. They just don't have the time in their busy life to give her head space. They are so busy looking after their own family.

She can consume so much of my energy and goodwill. It's exhausting.

I had a great day yesterday, tiring but rewarding. Some plans for the future maybe coming together so that's encouraging. I had an enjoyable relaxing day today.

Best wishes

guitarman

Hi guitarman  :wave:

It's been awhile since I've been here, and I do recall that we both suffer with sisters that are NPD.  I remember you giving me some good advice, so thought to add my two cents here  :) .  I recently posted about my anguish with my sister and Mom (see JUST DEAL WITH IT) and reading your post reminds me that the abuse can come in many forms. 

Bottomline, from what I hear from you is; we need to get Out of the FOG.  We evidently just can't shake it!!  Fear, Obligation, and Guilt!  It's just so sad.  Our brains are imprinted from the past, from constant abuse and anguish due to that abuse; so that now all we can do is deal with the triggers (at least that's where I am now.)  I hear the brain is able to change, but I have yet to learn how to prevent the triggers.

My answer to your question if definitely BOTH.  My sister has mental illness that causes abuse.  I have mental illness due to this abuse and dysfunction in my family; but I am not abusive, I am the opposite.  I take the abuse.  I am learning how not to take the abuse anymore.

It sounds like all of your siblings count on YOU to be THE ONE who deals with your sister, out of obligation; as they have let that go.  Maybe you being the buffer helped them to let go?  Maybe that's why you feel so obligated?  I would too!  It's truly tough to see someone suffer, especially a "loved one".  Is there a way you can align yourself with your other siblings so that you would feel more comfortable letting her go?  Ask for their help so you can let her go?

Good luck with your future plans, and thanks for this:  Be a Lighthouse, Not a Lifeboat.  Gracias  :yes:

My uBPD/uNPD sister visited this evening. She only stayed for a couple of hours. As she was leaving she said that she's seriously ill and no one cares.

She told me about yet more ailments she thinks she has. She's being treated by a world class hospital so I shouldn't be so concerned about her health issues.

It just goes on and on. She asked me for help as she doesn't know what to do. She said that she's given up and lost weight because she has no appetite. She ate something when she was here.

She says she has to decide either to put the heating on or to eat. It tears me apart thinking how she's living but that's why she tells me I suppose.

I didn't give her any money for her rent and she wasn't sobbing or pleading like she usually does.

I was mostly Grey Rock and Medium Chill. It's not easy being a lighthouse rather than a lifeboat. I didn't actually offer any advice or tell her who she could contact for help. She's intelligent she knows who to contact.

I'm so relieved that she's left and didn't stay long. I can relax now.

Best wishes

guitarman

I recently posted this information below about the upcoming free online Healing Narcissistic Trauma Conference in the "Other Media Resources" section that you might find of interest.

QuoteHere is the link to the free online "Healing Narcissistic Trauma" conference October 27th and 28th 2018.

The conference is hosted by Susan Ball founder of Empower Her and host of Fierce Women Rising Radio.

The author and counsellor Kris Godinez who specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome is going to be one of the many speakers.

https://www.susanball.ca/healing-narcissistic-trauma-conference/

Best wishes

guitarman

Quote from: guitarman on August 13, 2018, 09:20:26 AM
I have a uBPD/uNPD sister. I'm still not sure if she has a serious mental illness or is deliberately and purposely abusing people by her extreme behaviour. Is it both mental illness and abuse? It is something that I've been questioning myself about for a long time. 

When she is calm and has money she can be quite joyful, enthusiastic, charming and loving. At other times when she is in a crisis and consumed with anxiety, worry and stress she can be quite vile, acting out, sobbing, screaming, shouting, swearing, seeking money and suicidal. Thankfully she has never self harmed.

She believes she has many chronic physical health issues that never get better so that she says she can't work. I don't know if they are all real or imaginary. She can be quite a waif. Then I feel terrible for not believing her but she is not consistent with her illnesses and sometimes behaves as if there is nothing at all wrong with her. She doesn't always follow the medical advice from the world class hospital she attends. She thinks she knows better than all the doctors what is wrong with her and that they have misdiagnosed her.

She alienates people by her extreme behaviour, twists history around, makes things up, constantly plays the victim when she is the abuser.

She is intelligent, well qualified and experienced but has no regular job or income.

I used to have hope that she would change but now I don't think she's capable of changing without professional mental health support, which of course she doesn't think she needs. I have accepted that she won't probably ever change and that I can't change her. I care but can't cope. I say to myself now that she is just someone that I used to know.

It's so sad to see her repeating the same old patterns of thinking and self destructive behaviour. She can be so angry at everyone and everything. She says she's so lonely but I can't get her friends or the life she wants to lead. Only she can do that.

It can be a constant pity party being around her. Nothing is ever good enough. No one can do anything right for her. She says no one cares about her when she's had so much money to help her from our elderly, frail, vulnerable parents. There is a deep hole inside her that can't be filled no matter how much love, time, money, kindness, advice or care we all put into it. It's never ever enough.

I follow the teachings of Kris Godinez (who specialises in Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome), Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield on Facebook and YouTube. I have learnt such a lot from them all.

I've learnt a new phrase
"Be a lighthouse not a lifeboat". It's something I try to be now.

Best wishes

guitarman

Honestly, I think it's both. Mental illness can cause people to lash out. What you described sounds just like my uPD SIL. It put the words to what I've been feeling. It's so sad. I'm sorry for your hurts and struggles and that you worry so much about your sister.

uPD SIL also never is satisfied with anything. It's odd because she laughs at certain things and can be kind of excited sometimes. I can imagine her laugh and it's a nice laugh, but it's infrequent. The rest of the time she's miserable. It's so distressing to think that a loved one can't help being miserable, isn't it?

Mental illness can cause hurt and pain and can cause others to have a different sense of reality vs. the truth. So, in essence, sometimes mental illness causes abuse, but sometimes abuse is just something that harmful people choose to do.

It sounds like it's murky and frustrating and hard to understand and that your sister is probably struggling, but that never excuses harming another person. My BPD MIL has had a lot of hurtful behaviors, and some of them she really means, and some of them are almost laughable because a grown woman is indulging in such unhelpful and hurtful behavior. However, it's still sad and disappointing because we love these people even with their illness and abuse.... and I often wish I didn't care or love them because their behaviors hurt so bad.

So, I guess my question is... does it matter? I think you probably know that you still need to set boundaries even if they don't mean to be hurtful.

I need to vent. My uBPD/uNPD sister has just left after a visit. Thankfully she didn't stay long. She wanted money for food as she had an unexpected urgent bill to pay that she had forgotten about and hadn't budgeted for.

It started her off into a tirade of abuse about everything that has upset her recently and in the past. She told me about how ill she is with her heart and lung condition.

I said to her that I couldn't give her money and I didn't. She was saying that don't be surprised if she dies soon because of all the stress causing her heart condition to get worse.

I felt like screaming at her when she said that no one cares about her. I have so much stress in my life already I can't cope with all her problems as well.

I couldn't believe it when she told me she pays for a regular cleaner! She can't afford to feed herself but she has a cleaner. It doesn't make any sense.

I don't see or hear from her much because I've not been giving her money like I have in the past when she says she feels suicidal and can't cope.

I feel so guilty about not giving her any money. She shouted as she left that she'll have to live on bread and jam for a week as that's all she has left in her flat.

I can relax now as I've seen her. So hopefully she won't be visiting me again for a few weeks but I never can tell. I've got so much adrenaline going around in my body.

I've got to remember to be a lighthouse not a lifeboat, but it's hard.

Best wishes

guitarman

She sounds A LOT like my PD mom.  Heads up..... they get worse with age.  For someone who is so sick she sure does have A LOT of energy to plead, and beg, and get to your apartment.  My mom exaggerates or simply lies about illnesses.  Truth is, she is probably stronger than my self.  My mom too whines about finances and begs for money then has the nerve to complain about her hired house cleaner.  WTF??!!!  I truly believe that they enjoy being treated like pampered queens.  They like the power of having  servant.  She has to eat jam and bread for a week but hired someone to clean her house????   Please wake up.  I finally had to go no contact with my mom.  She has no one else, she has burned her bridges, but my own health and sanity was suffering.  Im with WomanInterrupted, save yourself.   I finally realized that setting boundaries with my mom only made her more agitated and feel invalidated and actually made her feel worse when she couldnt get what she wanted.  I realized that our interactions were not genuine and were hurtful to myself and her.  She would see me and get jealous, resentful, angry, disappointed, etc.  Was our interactions really helping her or hurting her?    I couldnt give in to her because then I was hurting myself and my own family (and she had an endless need, nothing filled her hole of a heart or financial need for long).  I believe it may be less hurtful for her to not have contact with me.  You might think about your own interaction with your sister.  Does she feel better when she leaves?  Did your pep talks help?  Or did she see you and become resentful, jealous and bitter?  My dad died of cancer at age 62, he had a stroke the year before.  My therapist said that constant stress and cortisone levels can make you susceptible to illnesses.  I believe that was what happened to her husband/ my dad.   Get in your life boat and be your own lighthouse.  Dont be a martyr.  She will not appreciate it and  if you believe in God, Im sure he  wouldnt want you to be one either.  Please take care of you. 

I'm unwinding after I experienced over half an hour of narcissistic rage from my uBPD/uNPD sister this evening.

She was calm when I let her in then she got upset that her daughter had visited me a few days ago and I hadn't told her. She became very abusive shouting and swearing asking me why I hadn't called her to let her know. Her daughter hasn't had contact with her mother for a long time because her daughter doesn't want much to do with her because of all the abuse she has experienced.

She brought up lots of things from the past. Then she started making things up and believing them. She twists history to suit her own purposes.

She tried everything to push all my buttons but I didn't engage with her much. I used Medium Chill and Grey Rock.

It's the same old things she said. I'm so used to it I've heard it all before many, many times over.

She eventually left.

I was shaking but eventually calmed down. I called my siblings to let them know what had happened. They are very supportive, when they are available.

Best wishes

guitarman

I'm sorry you've been upset by your sister yet again. You did the right thing by engaging as little as possible with her.

It's awful isn't it? How we have to be against our true nature ?

We can't be ourselves around them. :sadno:

She's trying to bully you into your old  codependent ways, where you would immediately attempt to fix it all for her.

Anyone who has a cleaner can afford to eat. She must be gaslighting you.

At the very most, she may have days where   she perhaps can't do a full shop- maybe because she's irresponsible  with her money. 

One way to help her be more responsible is to continue not giving in to her requests.

If you can, have a try at detaching emotionally when she rants. You are being strong, but then feeling upset. Remember to feel just fine! 
Drop the rope. Drop the anger and certainly any guilt as it isn't yours.

She senses you moving away from all of that previous dysfunction,  and quietly defending yourself. She dislikes it intensely, but your stoic grey rocking means she can't really put together a complaint that will hold water.

Keep doing it. It's your power.
Thinking of you.  :)

She's very like my older Nsister andNbrother. I have a better relationship with my little sister. That's a silver lining for me. There will be one for you, too. 😊xxxxx

Thanks. I've been OK today but it takes me a few days to fully recover my equilibrium and centre myself again. I was a bit on edge today thinking that she may visit me again but she didn't.

I don't get angry with my sister but just feel pity and sadness for her. She's not going to change.

I could have shouted at her, which she wanted me to do, but I chose to stay calm. I was singing quietly to myself all the time she was ranting and raging at me. I was saying that it was all projection towards me. All her own fears were directed at me.

She said some really psychotic and delusional things that I just have to laugh about as they were all so ridiculous and outrageous.

I'm learning not to do "idiot compassion" any more. It's very empowering.

Best wishes

guitarman

I'm so sorry!

One thing I learned *really* fast with unBPD Didi was to NOT give her a crumb of information, if I didn't want it used against me.

I *thought* I was making small talk about DH's travels.  He's away quite often, on business, but little did I know she'd start having "medical emergencies" - and NEED my help, often the same day he left.

I never went or did a thing, but it *really* surprised me at how long it took me to figure out *I was the one giving her then information.*   :doh:

It took EIGHT "emergencies" that involved Makeitupitis and an ER visit or hospital admission before I figured it out.   :blink:

I suggest, in the future, that you NOT talk about family - you don't need to be at the receiving end of her rage again, and her daughter doesn't need to feel like a moving target, because you thought you were making conversation, but she didn't see it that way - she used it as an *excuse to abuse you.*

And may try to contact her daughter, who does  not want contact.

You really don't want to be a FMM, even accidentally, thinking you were making conversation.

Your niece may not see it that way, if it happens again.

The *only* things I could talk to Didi about were gardening and the weather, or maybe a TV show she liked that I paid some attention to (House, MD), and that was pretty much IT.

Otherwise, the few times she'd actually let me get a word in edgewise  :blahblahblah:  , I'd just bore her with historical stuff I was interested in, knowing full well it would shit her to tears.

Frankly, I didn't care - it was safe territory.   8-)

So, if you're a nerd in any subject, if she lets you get in any conversation at all, bore her about your latest nerdy interests before you're back to Medium Chilling "The MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! Show."

You want her BORED.  Good and BORED.  SO bored you actually see the dull look of disinterest and her eyes start to glaze over with your extensive knowledge of ancient Greek culture - or British history, how Jimmy Page got a certain sound on a certain song (in GREAT detail!), how the Yardbirds formed and how many great bands came from them - the more long-winded and boring you are, the better.   :ninja:

She'll probably cut you off, go back to the topic of HER, get Medium Chilled, be unsatisfied, and leave, wondering what the hell just happened.   :yahoo:

Topics to avoid - anything having to do with money, such as collectibles (stamps, coins, Beanie Babies - you get the idea) or food, unless it's the *science* of food and not the actual cooking.

Why - she'll go down the broke and hungry rabbit hole again, and you don't want THAT.   :aaauuugh:

Yes, you have to censor yourself quite a bit if you *want* to have a relationship with her, but I can't help but wonder why you even want to.

She's not nice.  She's abusive, demanding, cruel, needy, clingy, entitled, and seems to think the world owes her some intangible, unknowable Something, to fill the black hole of need inside her for five minutes, before she discards it and is on to the next quest for the intangible, unknowable Something.

*And she expects YOU to provide that intangible, unknowable Something!*   :sadno:

I've learned from unBPD Didi that people like your sister are only rarely happy for more than five minutes before they're utterly miserable again and go right back to the abusive start of the cycle because *IT WORKS.*

Didi found I was non-receptive (Medium Chill), as bland as cottage cheese, boring as a bucket of wallpaper paste, and no matter what she said or did, I just wouldn't budge.   :ninja:

Nope.  Not coming.  I figured out who controls when and where I drive my car, and it was going nowhere near her.   :evil2:

I think it might help to make yourself inaccessible - if she doesn't call first, you don't answer the door.

That's a BOUNDARY, and a very basic one.  "Call first."

If she pitches a fit in the hall or on your front porch, call the police and have them remove her.

I'm sorry to say, but I think it's time for some VERY Tough Love.

You can't keep doing this to yourself.  It's not healthy - and it's not going to get any better.

:hug:

Thanks. Yes you are right. I am the source of information about the rest of the family as sometimes I am the only one she talks to. I've learnt about the term "therapeutic lying" so will be using that from now on. I have to think about what is the best outcome for me not for my uBPD/NPD sister. I have to protect myself first.

FMM? I don't know that term.

Yes I'll have to bore her so she'll go away. I'm very nerdy about PDs but that wouldn't help to discuss that! I've spent years researching LOL.

I don't want to share anything with her about what I'm interested in. It feels like I'm sharing my soul and life force. I don't want her intruding into my life and headspace.

I talk about the weather, boring television shows and Brexit. That should bore anyone. Rather than praise her I should bore her.

Looking back I have made progress but not gone full NC although I never contact her. I've called police and ambulances before and she knows I follow through and will do it again. They don't do much and she usually leaves before they arrive.

I think the best thing for me to do is to stay calm and not to react when she tries everything to provoke me to anger. It's what she wants.

I'm so stressed out with other things in my life that I don't have time to deal with her. I'm not sleeping well but am OK. I have support from other people and confide in them which I didn't do years ago so that all helps.

I can't fix her. I don't think anyone can. I think she's beyond fixing.  It's all so sad.

Best wishes

guitarman

My uBPD/uNPD sister visited yesterday with all the family. It's been a long time since we've all been together.

She's been so abusive to my siblings and myself recently I'm surprised that it all stayed calm and we had a good time together, although it was tense. I mostly stayed out of her way.

She hadn't bought any presents apart from a bunch of flowers. She says she can't afford anything as she says she has heart failure and is living on benefits.

There were so many things that she said that I just let go and didn't react to. All the same old things that she's been saying for years. I'm so fed up with her waif like behaviour, conspiracy theories and all her sadness and misery.

Myself and my siblings bought her gifts but her children didn't. She appreciated the gift that I bought her.

I'd forgotten how consumed I've been by her life and worries as I've not been in her company much recently. She's never going to change. I have to look after myself first before I ever look after her needs. She was saying how difficult it's been for her living without much money. I was about to say to her "Well go and get yourself a job then!" but I didn't. She's quite capable and intelligent enough to work in a well paid job but chooses not to or can't because of all her physical illnesses she says.

I'm surprised everything stayed calm as she's said in the past, well screamed and shouted, that she never wants to see our siblings ever again. So she held it all together and behaved herself.

She's got a new best friend who she's been pouring all her troubles on. So she's been venting to them.

I've got to be aware about not being hoovered back into her life. This period of calmness won't last long. She won't be able to sustain it. It's the usual pattern that's been going on for decades. She has to have enemies and play the victim. She doesn't know how else to live. I don't want her in my life any more. So it's Medium Chill and Grey Rock forever more from me. I mustn't be seduced into thinking that she's changed. I mustn't open the door in my heart to compassion. I have to remind myself that I don't do "idiot compassion" any more. She's an abuser. She abuses me and will continue to do so. I mustn't be fooled.

I hope you've had a peaceful time and survived intact.

Best wishes

guitarman

My uBPD/uNPD sister visited me this evening. She's joined a slimming club. I thought that she didn't have any money to feed herself?!!

She was also telling me about how she needs her broken TV to be fixed. I started to look up TV repair companies then I thought no, she's intelligent she can do all that for herself. I could see that she wanted me to give her money to fix it. She'll have to save up and pay someone to visit and fix it for her. She's not completely isolated. She can still watch TV on her phone and laptop. She's paying for a cleaner to visit her. So she'll have to save up instead.

She was complaining about all her physical ailments. It gets nauseating to hear her repeat the same conversations over and over again about them all. She thinks she has yet another new ailment now. She's a total waif.

I was getting lectured about what foods she can and can't eat. She was stuffing her face with all the wrong foods yesterday. Are pork pies and chocolates allowed on a healthy eating diet?!! I just had to laugh.

She left at midnight worrying about where she is going to live soon. She asked me if I had any ideas. I said that I don't. Sorry not my problem, but it could be if I let it. Thankfully she left calmly.

Best wishes

guitarman

I'm glad you were able to get through both visits without any drama -  and I'm *elated* you know this phase won't last.

How her adult children treat her?  That's ultimately how *you* want to treat  her - in a very hands-off, aloof and standoffish way,  where she knows nope, not getting a crumb of supply off you.   :thumbup:

In my last post, you asked what FMM meant - Flying Messenger Monkey.  By telling your sister you talked to one of her AC's, that's what you were inadvertently doing, so they might not know *where* your loyalties are.

You can circumvent that by not relaying info about her adult children - or even mentioning that you spoke to them.  They sound like they have NO  F's left to G about her.

I know - you thought you were making innocent conversation.

In unBPD Land  there IS no such thing.   :roll:

I'm glad you've realized the civil/waif act your sister puts on is just that - an ACT.

Always, IME, just underneath the surface, is The Witch, just *waiting* to be unleashed, over any slight - real or imagined - and that includes you not going along with Today's Version of Reality, where she has no money to fix her TV, but has joined a slimming club, has a new diagnosis and can only eat certain foods, shortly after you saw her stuffing her face with anything she could get her hands on - and oh, she doesn't know where she's going to live (NOT YOURS!), but has a cleaner and is subsisting on jam.   :stars:

Her life is full of incongruities and *nothing makes a lick of sense.*

Unless you want The Witch to reign fire and blood on you (proverbially!), you *never* call out those incongruities, but you *can* keep a tally of them, and add them to your mental pot of Why I Really Don't Need To Have A Relationship With Somebody Who Thrives on Total Chaos Manufacture.    :sharkbait:

And if you ever doubt yourself - remember the looks on her adult children's faces when she decided to grace you all with her presence, and gift you all a single flower, while going on with her usual shtick  - broke!  Bad  heart!  Bad lungs!   :violin: :dramaqueen:

Your sister is a black hole of constant need.  Let her new BFF deal with her and *stop allowing her to enter your home without calling first.*  :yes:

It's a very simple and basic boundary, and if she can't respect it - she gets no access to you.   :ninja:

If you don't have one, I'd invest in a sliding chain-lock for your front door.  They're  not dear and a wise investment - as long as you use it *every single time* - to stop your sister from just allowing herself entrance by pushing or blustering past you.

If you do have one and don't use it - please start!  You'll thank yourself later.  :)

With that lock in place,  you'll feel a *lot*  more protected.  You can answer your door by opening it  as far as the chain goes, telling her it's not a good time, she needs to CALL FIRST - and shutting the door in her face.

If she has a meltdown in the hall, call the authorities.

But chances are she'll just leave and think you won't *dare* do that again - or it must have been a mistake, you didn't mean it, and besides, *nobody* TELLS her what to do! 

Oh, but you *must* - every single time, unless she calls first - and even if she calls, you can always tell her it's not a good time, you were just on your way out, and she'll have to catch up with you later about rescheduling.   :ninja:

That chain lock will save your backside:

*  She'll *never call first* - well, maybe she will learn, after the first two or three *hundred* attempts to barge in.   :aaauuugh:

*  You're going to realize you'd like to have her visit in the year "Never."   :barfy: :pissed:

*  Her stories - endless loops of broke, sick, can't pay her rent, only has jam to eat for a week, nobody cares - but she *always* has money for the "important stuff" - like the gym or a cleaner - are going to start to irritate you to the point where you don't just want to yell, "GET A JOB!"

You might actually become so frustrated that you *do it* - and HERE comes The Witch!

Yeah - THAT!  You don't want THAT!    :spooked:

And you don't have to put up with it for ONE second, if you faithfully use your chain lock and give her a mild brush-off.  "Sorry - not a good time.  Call first.  Have a nice day." - and close her out.  :ninja:

You'll wind up being just another one of "those" people who just don't care about her - and that's what you want, because I've seen your future.

I've lived it.

Your sister is a younger version of unBPD  Didi - and she's only going to keep getting  clingier, needier, more dependent, more broke,  more *infantile* and a hell of a lot more hostile and abusive as the years tick by. 

She's only going to keep getting worse, and worse, and worse - everything you know now, but on steroids, and turned up to 11.

You haven't seen *anything* yet - and you don't *want* to see it, experience it or be anywhere near it when things eventually become unsustainable - which they *will.*

It's time to put your priorities in to YOU and your own future - your  health, your livelihood, your retirement and your frivolous pursuits, which are NOT frivolous.  :sunny:

You get to live *your life* - and not sit and wonder when she's going to drop on you like a bomb.

If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, I think that might be a good place to start.

You can get both the book and the sliding chain-lock on Amazon  - which probably doesn't even come close to their weirdest order, ever.   :bigwink:

You  can do this - you can protect  yourself.  Your sister is not *your identity* - nor is being her emotional punching bag or any sort of carer, T, or even a sounding board.

You are YOU and *have the right to be YOU* - without her as a millstone, trying to take you down with her.

:hug:

Thanks WomanInterrupted I'm a bit busy with what's going on with my mother to reply to your comments at the moment but thank you.

My frail elderly mother collapsed and was in A&E yesterday. After many tests they found she has a lung infection. I called my uBPD/uNPD sister to let her know and she started talking to me about how ill she is and do I know that she has heart failure! Of course I know she talks about how ill she is every time she calls me or visits me.

My mother has been treated with intravenous antibiotics and was allowed home after a few hours.

It just goes to show me how narcissistic my sister really is. When our mother is in hospital she doesn't visit her, even though she lives nearby and talks about her own problems on the phone saying how ill she is rather than putting her own problems aside for once, just once. She's not going to change.

Best wishes

guitarman

I feel for you, guitarman! I have been going through a very similar emotional rollercoaster with my uBPM, who sounds very similar to your sister. This in particular resonated with me:

When I'm in this situation I get panicked. I'm on edge all the time. I can't think straight. I'm worrying over something that hasn't even happened yet but potentially could. She'll threaten to harm herself and become homeless. It feels like I'm the only one that can help her. It's hell feeling like this over and over again.

My rational mind has deserted me and gone into overdrive. I need to be rational and calm. Breathe slowly. Turn "What if?" into "What is".

I need someone from outside my family to help her. I don't want to be involved in her life any more. It's torture. I have no resilience left.

Yep, yep, and yep. It's a horrible feeling to experience. WomanInterrupted is right: dropping the rope will help with that.

If this helps, when I was reading the description of your sister begging and pleading on the floor, it was as if I was reading about a heroin addict begging for a fix. Would you give her more heroin if she was an addict? Would you give her money to go buy more? If you truly wanted to help, you would let her hit rock bottom and realize for herself (or not) that she needed help. In this case, your attention and personal sacrifice is the heroin. It will never be enough. You feel exhausted because you've given all you have to give, and its still not enough. She will move on and find somebody else to give her a fix. You have to take care of you.

I know how tough it is.

:bighug:

You got some amazing advice.  It helped me too. It reminded me that my expdh lost everything, wife which is me, kids, family home, vehicles, job, etc. And is now homeless.   Does it hurt me to see a man who only wore designer clothing that he is now sleeping on a bench?  Yes.  It hurts.  But he is a grown ass man.  It is not my job as an adult to caretake another adult.  I did it for 30 years and only got abuse back  he sounds exactly like your sister .  I have my hands full now raising two children on my own. My story is tragic but I had to remove myself from him completely to give my children hope.   He wouldn't back off harassing me so I have a restraining order.   My high school sweetheart, together for 30 years.  Father of my kids.  But enough was enough.  When I left, I got my life back.  Stay strong and don't be afraid to put boundaries for your own protection.  You matter!  Her needs are NOT more important than yours. 

My mother is in hospital overnight but is OK. She collapsed in the afternoon in her wheelchair so didn't hurt herself. The A&E doctor thinks that she may have a chest infection. I spoke to my uBPD/uNPD sister on the phone and she started talking to me about how ill she is with a chest infection as well and no one cares. I was in the Resus unit with my mother listening to how ill my sister is!!! My sister didn't visit although she lives near the hospital.

My sister will never change.

Best wishes

guitarman

Guitarman, I am sorry about your Mom!  I hope she recovers okay.  And, sorry about your sis, it's always about her, sadly!  Take care of you too!

Thanks Summer Sun. I'm sure my mother will get better soon and will be discharged soon as well.

guitarman X

****May Trigger****

My mother isn't doing as well as I thought. I'm hoping for the best but fearing the worst. She's on a ward now for elderly people. She had a "vacant episode" whilst in A&E on Friday afternoon. They called the crash team who all came running. She had low blood pressure but didn't need CPR. We've been asked to discuss DNR with my siblings.

My mother picked up a bit later and was even drinking a cup of tea that she requested. She drank some of it. She has a UTI and chest infection. She had better colour in her face when I left her but she's not at all well.

I've been informing my uBPD/uNPD sister how our mother is during the day and she was phoning me a few times. She didn't visit.

My sister is very upset. However she was talking about herself and all her problems. She was saying that she should have more care from the family.

Our mother is very ill and all my sister wants to do is tell me how ill SHE is!

I'm so tired and worrying about our mother. She's not eating or drinking nearly enough.

guitarman X

I'm so sorry, Guitarman, and I hope your mom improves.   :)

A word about your sister - keep her OUT of it.

If she wants to know, SHE can call.  She can visit.  SHE is a big girl  who is actually a grown-ass  woman, and can take care of herself, as well as find out her own information - but just doesn't *want* to, because it takes the attention off her.

Incident  from my life that  was a BIG eye-opener:

My aunt J, unBPD   Didi's younger sister, had been diagnosed with brain cancer that had metastasized  by the time she was diagnosed and, well, that was it. 

She was going to die and not in the very distant future.  She lived with my cousin - her daughter   - who loved her deeply, and made the mistake of crying to Didi that she was losing her mother and just couldn't handle it, couldn't imagine life without her, and what do you think happened next?

Didi had herself hospitalized for all her vague aches and pains and the same  damned things that had been wrong with her for years, and insisted I come NOW.  NOW, NOW, RIGHT NOW - this could be the end of her.   :dramaqueen:

Naaaaaaah - I stayed right here.  I knew *exactly* what the hell was going on.   >:(

I was more interested in supporting the cousin I'd loved as a child, but hadn't seen or spoken to in over 30 years, than Didi's pretend emergency, again, some more, again - and asked her to *please* not update  Didi about her mom - update me instead, and I'd pass it along. 

I didn't pass along a lot of information  - Didi would have had a field-day with it and tried it herself, or gone all psycho about God's judgment and  suicide, being all faux-religious and stuff.   :roll:

My aunt  decided  to lay down on the sofa and not eat or drink, knowing the end was near.   She died  close  to 48 hours later, spending most of that time in a  coma.

My cousin called me, I relayed my condolences and told her I'd call Didi - who'd been discharged from the hospital a few  hours earlier, and this is what happened:

"Mom...I'm so sorry, but aunt J passed away tonight."

"Did I tell you I LOVE my new E-cigarettes!??!?"    :???:

"Mom...did you hear me?  Aunt J died."

"Did  you hear ME??  I LOVE my new E-cigarettes!"   :blink:

We did some chatting about *that* and I asked Didi not to call my cousin, as she had a lot of calls to make, and very little time to arrange a funeral.

You'll never guess what the next call was - Didi telling me she'd called my cousin, so there, neener neener, nanny nanny boo  boo - and nobody will tell her anything about her sister's  death other than she died.   :ninja:

Well, that's what she did.

What did I know?

She died.  I'm very sorry, but that's what happened.   :ninja:

And here's where it gets *really* interesting* - is anybody going to care that *she could be dying right now and nobody knows why, because nobody cares.*         :dramaqueen: :blowup:

I told her she'd have to speak to her doctor  - and she slammed the phone down on me.   :roll:

I tell you this as a cautionary tale and a way to avoid the future presented to you:

Whatever your treatment your mom  gets, your sister will want MORE and BETTER, just like Didi  wanted MORE and  BETTER than my cousin gave my aunt.   :sharkbait:

For the record, my cousin is a carpenter and put a room on her house for her mom, moved her in and loved her to the end, while caring for her as best she could  and caring for her disabled  father, at the same  time - and her DH  lived in another house, with *his* disabled parents!

They love their parents.    I *didn't.*   :P

You love your  sister - you  haven't gotten to the point of, "Fall off a  cliff and see what happens" (indifference) yet - but  you may, very quickly.

After Aunt J  died, every single ache, pain, problem or inconvenience Didi had suddenly went Critical  Mass - she couldn't order her meds!  She couldn't chew her food!    She couldn't clean  baby oil off the floor because she didn't know HOW and she couldn't look up numbers in the phone book  because she just *couldn't* and I HAD to look them up on the internet  for her!   She couldn't keep anything down or in!  The neighbors hated her!   She needed  heeeeeeeeeeeelp - only a help I could  give by  taking care of her like we take care of our pets.    :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

HOLY   SHIT   - and NO.  I am very busy.  With things around here.  The usual.  Stuff and things.  Life, the universe and everything.  What are you, my parole officer?  :ninja: :evil2: :bigwink:

I started becoming *very* scarce - hard to get hold of.  Let the machine pick up.   Did nothing.

She thought she was  getting a hospital bed in our living room and she was wrong.

You want to avoid all that drama, chaos and flair-ups of your  own health  issues?

Stop telling her *anything*  about your mother.  She doesn't CARE.  She wants to use it and make it about her, so you can build her a great big  living shrine, where it's all about her and you keep her alive by thimble-feeding  her the purest of soups, cooked by virgins in the highest  of dead volcanoes in the Andes, brought to her on the backs of hummingbirds, or some such damned fool thing.   :roll:

STOP   GIVING HER ANY  INFORMATION.  AT  ALL.  PERIOD.  :yes:

If she wants it, she can get it herself - YOU don't have to feed her internal drama, and be the recipient of the aftermath.

Stop calling - and if she calls you for updates, everything is fine, well, going along, progress  good, should be okay, it's all good; not sure when your mom is going home, but  hopefully soon.

Keep  it as *low key* as possible  - no details,  nothing.

But I bet she won't  call, at all  - Didi only freaked out after she was *fed information she could use against me.*

And I made a  very conscious decision  my life was *mine.*  8-)

You may have to do the same  - always choose  yourself.

You know what you're getting.  8-)

Your sister will find  others.     That's what she's good at and that's what  she does - and it doesn't have to involve you.

Save  yourself *first.*  Put on *your* oxygen mask.* 

And do what's best for you - *not your sister, who won't *care* and constantly demand *more.*

:hug:

Thanks. I know you've been through so much yourself. It's good to know others have been through similar incidents. We are not alone. It's good to share.

My mother was so much better yesterday on Saturday. It's Sunday morning now and I'll visit the hospital this afternoon. My adult niece, my sister's daughter, is with my mother now. A cousin is on the way over as well.

My niece FaceTimed me so I could see and talk to my mother in her hospital bed. My mother wouldn't eat breakfast but perhaps she'll perk up later and eat something. I hope so. She's talking and alert so that's all good.

My niece stayed with my sister overnight. Apparently her mother asked her if she should continue taking her antibiotics for her chest infection. Of course she should! She complains that she doesn't get antibiotics and really needs them then when she gets them she doesn't always finish the course. It doesn't make sense. Then she wonders why she's still ill.

I ended the conversation quickly the last time my sister called me yesterday. Rather than listen to all her problems I said that I have other things on my mind. She's not called back. I'll keep it all brief if she calls again. As you say she's quite capable of calling the hospital herself. She's already done it on Thursday.

We should all be supporting each other more in the family at this time. My other siblings do. They don't talk about all their own problems. I think we talk about my sister too much when we should be talking about our mother.

As you've said before I need to drop the rope. I've come a long way but still have more to do. I really don't want anything more to do with my sister. It's all too painful for me and I can't cope with her. I can't change her. It's up to me how much she is in my life. I'm the one in control of that, not my sister. I'm quite happy never to see her again.

Best wishes

guitarman X

Guitarman, I hope your Mom recovers, things sound to be prgresseing well.  How lovely for her to have your and your family support.

I do agree your sister is capable of getting information on your Mom herself.  You are just too busy.  Put up a boundary, let her know she's a big girl and capable and you have too much kn your plate.  Don't answer the phone if you know it's her.

Your closing paragraph reminded me of me, the last appointment I had with my psychologist.  He said to me, "you know, you don't have to do this if it is too painful for you.  You can take a break from your B for 6 months, 9 months, a year, see how you feel.  Maybe a lifetime."  You've  indicated you don't want anything to do with your sis, that it is too painful for you, that you cannot cope.  Guitarman, it is okay to give yourself permission to go NC.  I too could not cope anymore.  It was impacting my own mental health and well being.  I chose me. 

In my codependent state, I always thought, family first.  Love, forgive, do, care.  It works well for PD's who are indifferent, critical, receiving, taking.  Someone on this site once wrote or quoted something about refusing to cross oceans any longer for those who can't bother to jump a puddle for me.  Click.  Lightbulb moment. 

Hugs,

Summer Sun

My mother is getting stronger each day. She's been eating most of her meals. It takes a long time to feed her but I don't mind at all. So long as she is eating and drinking. There have been a few set backs but she looks so much better than a few days ago when I didn't think she was going to survive. She still has a long way to progress and isn't out of danger yet. She's still very elderly and frail. That's not going to change.

My sister still hasn't visited. When she rang me I could hear that she had a bad chest. I can never believe how ill she is any more from her exaggerating her symptoms and waif like behaviour in the past.

If you thought that your mother was dying wouldn't you do everything you could to try and see her one last time? To be with her, to comfort her, to see that she was not in pain? Most caring, loving people would. You would put aside your own problems and visit, wouldn't you?

I don't mean if your mother was toxic and dangerous to be with or if there was no relationship. Then it would be wise to stay away and send best wishes from afar. My mother isn't like that at all. She's so caring, kind and loving to everyone. It's my sister who is the toxic one.

My sister said to me that she thinks that she is so ill that she should be in hospital. Yes visiting your potentially dying mother!

This has just showed me how she really is. I could fill in the blanks with expletives but I won't. She only cares about herself. She doesn't care about anyone else. She just can't do it. That's the truth after all these years I've finally realised. She can give all the excuses. I can give all the excuses for her behaviour but when it matters she can't be bothered. There's the truth. Penny dropped.

It's best that she doesn't come she'd only upset me if I saw her. She'd only upset our mother too doing her performance caring act and fussing over her.

It's 4.45am and I haven't slept yet. I need to sleep to be ready for the visit to the hospital.

guitarman X

I'm so glad your mum is improving guitarman. I'm sending you kind thoughts and imagining you in a bubble of protection, so your sis can't hurt you hun.
I agree about your not needing to inform your sister of anything.  Non contact would free you but if you can't do that yet maybe  try low low contact. Slowly distancing yourself will mean your sis will have to take responsibility for finding out how your mum is. Keep yourself in that bubble. You've done so well already with all you have to deal with.  Take care and good luck with the distancing. You deserve not to have this in your life.

This has just showed me how she really is. I could fill in the blanks with expletives but I won't. She only cares about herself. She doesn't care about anyone else. She just can't do it. That's the truth after all these years I've finally realised. She can give all the excuses. I can give all the excuses for her behaviour but when it matters she can't be bothered. There's the truth. Penny dropped.

That's the ugly truth, and you've finally realized it.

Your sister just doesn't give a damn about anybody but herself.

She can say she "loves" you - but only as a means to an end.  I don't think she can really mean it, because I don't think she actually knows what love is, just like unBPD Didi.

For Didi, love was always conditional, because it was a *transaction* - you give, I get.  I complain, you give more.  I complain even louder, and you'll twist yourself into knots, trying to figure out what's wrong, and I'll make you guess, and wail, cry and scream that you don't love me if you guess wrong.  You still don't give me what I want, I threaten to kill myself.

That's not a relationship - that's insanity!   >:(

I walked around with a knot in my stomach for a week, once I realized my own mother didn't love me - she saw me as a THING.  A tool to use and discard, if I didn't perform my job, only to be snatched up again and worked even *harder*  to fill the black hole of need inside her.

That's what your sister really is - a black hole of endless need she expects *somebody else to figure out FOR her.*   :stars:

It's always an intangible, unknowable something that she needs - and if you figure it out, she'll find fault with it five minutes later and wail that you don't love her - then it's on to the quest  for the next intangible, unknowable *something* that will make her life complete.

That' s not only insane - it's *impossible.*

I learned this on another thread, and I was *very* glad to hear it, because I never knew what the term Borderline Personality actually represented.

Borderline of *what*, I used to wonder.

It's  Borderline Psychotic. (Thank you, Pseudonym, for solving the mystery!)

When I read that I went quiet and said, "Oh.  That explains a lot.  That explains *everything.*"   :jawdrop:

That's what you're dealing with - somebody who has behavior that borders on psychotic.

You can't deal with that.  You're not a professional.  You're not a psychiatrist or a T - you're a mortal man, who'd just like to live his fucking life in peace, and you'll never make sense of the mess in her head, let alone appease it, or make it happy for more than five minutes, before it turns on you, starts coughing, complaining about her lungs, or this or that, and telling you she's bought something expensive for herself  or has signed up for a gym, but has no money for rent or her cleaner, and will have to eat jam for dinner for the next month.

What *isn't* borderline psychotic about any of that?   :blink:

Yes - she is mentally ill.  But she's extremely cruel, corrosive, abusive, manipulative, and thinks nothing of hurting others and smirking about it.  It gives her *pleasure* to see you hurt, or in pain.  >:(

Please *bow out* of updating her on anything, ASAP.   Don't do a slow fade - IME, it  goes *terribly* because her biggest fear is abandonment - just don't call.  Become unavailable.  You're *busy* - and if she wants updates, she'll have to call somebody else or the hospital.

*She does not care.*   She'll claim to care, but she doesn't.  It's always back to The MEEEEEEE Show.   :dramaqueen: :violin:

Don't expect her to show up at the hospital - she's not capable.  She doesn't have it in her to show common concern for her own mother, when everything is about *her.*

You?  Her kids?  Your mom?  You're all FODDER for her.   She'll chew you up, spit you out, and complain the bones have nothing left to give her, once she's sucked the marrow out.

That's the ugly truth of your sister.

It was the ugly truth of Didi.

She just doesn't care because she can't - and just because you *can*  doesn't mean you *should.*

If you don't have a journal, I'd recommend opening Word  and just  start  screaming every single obscenity or angry thought you've had  -  it's a good place to put your thoughts.  :)

Nobody will  judge you, nobody cares about your grammar or spelling, you'll get your anger out of your head and onto a page, and it's for  YOU -  say anything you want and the world won't end.   :woohoo:

Sometimes if you speak your truth, you  start to see ways to make it happen - even if you're speaking to yourself.   :yes:

You hold the key to  your own cell, just like I did  with Didi, and  didn't realize I'd had it all  along.

You are allowed to say, "No.  Contact with her is toxic.  I can't do it."

Your  sister *is* toxic.   Having nothing to do with her is in  *your* best interest.   :)

It's time for you to think about  YOU, and where you'd like to be in five, ten years.

It's possible - and I'm living proof.   :heythere:

Once you start putting the puzzle pieces together and they make NO sense - it's time to let Team Authorities  take over.

If your sister won't avail herself of them, it's on her  -  not you.

Look after  yourself first.  The rest comes later. 

You didn't cause it, you  can't control it, and you can't cure it.

:hug:

My mother is very sleepy today. She's had some lunch. I'm sitting opposite her now. She's sleeping in an armchair. Two physiotherapists have helped to walk her a very short distance but it was hard work for her.

My sister called me last night. It was the nice sister. I was so surprised. I couldn't believe how nice she was. I mustn't be taken in by her charm. She'll soon turn nasty and abusive again. She said she has a chest infection and didn't want to spread it around the hospital. That's why she didn't visit.

Thanks nanotech and WomanInterrupted. You both make a lot of sense as ever.

I have conversations with my sister when she's not around. I say all the things I need to say to her but don't say it in person to her. There's no point.

A few days ago I didn't respond to her much when she rang. She said that it's not very adult of me. I said that I was listening to her.

I don't call her, only in an emergency. She's been calling the hospital for updates.

guitarman X

I'm in the hospital visiting my mother. My sister called me and she wants money for her heating bill and more care from the family. She pushed all my buttons. I almost shouted at her. I'm so stressed out with our mother. I was trying to spoon feed her when she called.

We are trying to sort out a possible care home for her. My sister said that she's not being included in the family decisions. I just told her all the options we are considering. So I included her. We've not made any decisions yet. Whatever we decide she won't agree with unless she's made the decision.

It's mayhem here with many people shouting out, not my mother, she's quiet. Once one of them starts it sets others off and they join in.

I shouldn't have answered my sister's call. I didn't when she rang back. It seems she just wants to score points and win a war, doing whatever she thinks is best.

guitarman X

My sister rang me again. I stupidly talked to her. She sarcastically asked me if I had calmed down because the last time I dared to confront her. I dared to say that she wasn't being very adult. It's what she said to me when I wouldn't talk to her before. I told her that I wasn't talking I was listening then.

So I repeated back what she had said to me about not being adult and she didn't like it.

I gave her brief information about our mother saying that she's eating well and don't know when she's going to be discharged.

I have visions of her coming to the hospital and publicly loudly admonishing and humiliating me. I'll call for security if she does but she won't come.

The things I imagine and expect might happen are amazing. Anticipatory dread and hyper vigilance as ever.

So I've kept calm and didn't engage much with her. Grey Rock and a Medium Chill.

Our frail elderly mother has been so ill. I don't need to be worrying about my sister at this time.

guitarman X

Oh guitarman, I've been following along but haven't had time to add my encouragement to you till now. Basically, just reread everything WomanInterrupted says because it's all gold. DON'T pick up the phone when your sister calls. Just don't. Drop that rope. You need all your energy for your mom and for yourself.  In fact, tell your sister that you are strong enough to handle everything anymore, so she needs to contact someone else for information--and let her kids and the rest of the family know you told her. Then use your strength for Mom and you.

Sending you (((((hugs))))). I've spent the last two months handling my dad's estate, moving my mom cross-country to live nearby, handling her hospitalization for pneumonia, and 9,000 other issues. My nBro is involved but, thankfully, he keeps his distance because he doesn't want to actually take any responsibility. So while in many ways I have it easier than you, I do totally understand the emotional and physical strain you're dealing with. Be well, sir!

Thank you everyone for your comments and support.

My elderly frail mother has been in hospital for nearly two weeks diagnosed with pneumonia, UTI and constipation. She came home one night then she was readmitted as she couldn't get up out of bed. She's still not got up out of bed so the night in hospital didn't achieve anything.

She's home now and I'm caring for her with the help of two carers who visit four times a day to wash and change her. They will try and get her up.

Unfortunately my mother sometimes often refuses to eat and drink. She spits water out. It's very stressful for me. I'm watching every mouthful that she takes. This morning she had half a mug of cocoa, some water and a cup of tea so maybe she's getting a bit better. She's not taken any medication for two days. She's alert and sitting up in bed.

My uBPD/UNPD sister hasn't visited her but I don't want her to if she's going to be abusive to me. She would behave herself in front of the carers. She would do her performance caring act and start telling them all her intimate problems and how ill she is. She would try and get them to be her best friends. Apparently she's not been physically well. She's not phoned recently either.

I'm so worried about my mother. If she's not drinking she'll have to go back to hospital. I don't have the capacity to worry about my sister as well, even though I think about her all the time.

Best wishes

guitarman

Guitarman, sorry your mom is still unwell.  This has been such a stressful time for you.  It is worrisome to watch an aging parent struggle or suffer through illness.

You are doing all you can do.  You cannot force her to eat or drink.  Perhaps an IV is required, is the care team medically equipped to handle if so?

It sounds like your sister is robbing you of the mental and emotional energy necessary to care for your mom, and yourself as you mention you are thinking of her all the time.  Guitarman, what are you doing for yourself?  Any self care, support, breaks for restoration?  Do you have a T to share your fears and sister situation with?  These kinds of life altering events (potential parental loss) can become overwhelming and all consuming, so I hope you are able to tend to your own mask.  Are your other siblings able to share in the care?

Wishing you support, relief, an easing of stress and the leCe you so deserve.

Summer Sun

Thanks Summer Sun for your reply.

Just a quick update as I'm very tired. My mother is now in a rehabilitation hospital for maybe a few weeks. Hopefully she will recover to how she was a few weeks ago before she was taken ill and went to another hospital. She's improving gradually.

Best wishes

guitarman

This reads like the best possible outcome to get her drinking again (which then helps solve the constipation problem which then allows her body to have room for the food)

I've been reading along, and wanted to share a thought.

When we are given the safety talk on an airplane, the attendant always says in case of loss of cabin pressure, apply your own oxygen mask first.

Because if you collapse now, Guitarman, you will be unable to care for the loving members of your family.

Hang in there.
  :cool2:

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me today. I've not heard from her for a few days.

She asked me how our mother was. She's not seen her for over three weeks. She said that she's got her chest infection from her.

I updated her about how ill our mother is in hospital. Then she started talking about herself for ten minutes. She wanted £200 to pay to get her laptop fixed, which she says she can't function properly without. I told her to contact our siblings or her daughter. I told her that I couldn't give it to her.

She continued to talk about all her problems and how she finds it so hard to survive. I just listened, which she doesn't like. She wants me to talk to her.

I've visited our mother today. She drank a drink and ate but not as much as she should. She was alert and talking so that's good. It's going to take a long time for her to recover to how she was before she became ill, if she ever does at all.

It would be nice to have my sister's support through all this turmoil but that will never happen and she's the one who would be needing support.

guitarman

Just as I was leaving today for the hospital to visit my mother my uBPD/uNPD was at the door. She wanted £200 to fix her broken laptop. I didn't give any money to her I was rushing to get to the hospital.

She said that she'll be back this evening or tomorrow. I said I couldn't give her any money.

I didn't let her in as I was going out. The hospital rang me earlier to ask if I could visit as my mother was refusing food. They were concerned about her. I was on my way there anyway.

I was able to feed my mother some dinner in the evening and she had a fortified drink as well. I'm pleased with what's she's had today but it's not enough. She's been alert and talking but has been in bed all day.

guitarman

You handled her VERY well, and I'm glad your mom is doing better.  :)

Hmmm...suuuuuuuuuuuuuure she got her chest infection from  your mother, while you, who have been with your mom, pretty much daily, haven't gotten it.   :roll:

In unBPDLand, ANY excuse is a valid one, even if it's an outright lie.   :aaauuugh:

I'm glad  you were on your way out, and I'm glad you told her you don't have the money - keep repeating it like a broken record, and if you want to offer a "suggestion" to her, mention she could always clean her own house, and save money that way, as she won't have to pay a cleaner.   :ninja:

It'll go over like a fart at a wedding, but it might be worth it - you suggesting she actually DO something about her own situation, for a change.

There will always be a reason why she can't - and if she mentions the dust will bother her lungs, you might want to mention they do make paper masks for that, and respirators that filter out all particulates, including dust.   :ninja:

Then she'll come up with another bunch of bullshit reasons that make NO sense.  :wacko:

I'd like to suggest you add another line to your Medium Chill responses:  "I don't know what to tell you, but I can't help you."   :ninja:

"I can't help you" makes it perfectly clear that you are of *no use to her.*  She'll have to go to the next person on the list, or the one after that, or the one after that - there's *always* at least one backup "friend" (enabler) for her to shake down.

If she ever says something about coming back later (after being told NO), I'd say, "It won't change anything.  I can't help you."   :ninja:

She probably won't come back if she *knows she's wasting her time*. 

With your mom being in the hospital, I'm actually a little surprised your sister isn't kicking up even more - but I'm glad, for you, that she's not!   :bigwink:

If your sister *does* start kicking up - more demands about money, more complaints about her health and needing money - if you feel brave, you might want to consider either telling her over the phone, or looking her dead in the eye and saying, "I have more important things to worry about than you, so please STOP.  I do NOT want to hear it..." - and either hang up, or tell her to LEAVE, you're on your way out *to visit your mother.*   :ninja:

Yes - sometimes that actually works, because they're so shocked that somebody they normally try to kick around *actually can and will fight back.*

Didi actually *did* back down when I called her on her suicide threats, knowing I was *dead* serious about having her taken to our local psychiatric facility.

It was her way of saying, "I'm not getting what I want!" - but I called her bluff, because I was  *sick of hearing it, and being made to feel like it was MY fault* - when it wasn't.  >:(

I think you might be fast approaching that point - and sometimes you have to be firm.

Didi threatened to drive off a bridge when I told her I couldn't take her to visit unNPD Ray, who was having a pacemaker installed (minor procedure).  I called her on the suicide threat, but what I *really* wanted to say was, "Hey, why don't you drive off the bridge on your way back from visiting Ray?"   :evil2:

When you start thinking thoughts like that, it's good, because it means you're not only angry, but detaching - that's what you need to do.

It's the healthier, saner option.  8-)

:hug:

Thanks WomanInterrupted. Your advice and experiences are so insightful as ever and made me laugh out loud.

My sister called me today as I was on the way to the hospital to visit our mother. I didn't answer. She needs to be kept informed about how our mother is but she's quite capable of calling the hospital. She did it when our mother was in another hospital a few weeks ago. I've since found out from her discharge notes that my sister was written down as a contact with no name against her number. Her number was above mine. She's not visited our mother for over three weeks.

My sister has threatened to drive her car off a cliff before years ago when she was in a crisis. When isn't she?

She's called again but I didn't answer the call.

My mother is sitting in an armchair today at the hospital. She's alert and talking.

guitarman

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me yesterday whilst I was in the hospital about to feed our mother in bed there. She asked how our mother is then told me again about how she's caught her lung infection from her and how ill she is. She asked for £100 as there was some miscalculation in her expenses. I calmly said I wouldn't give to to her. I felt terrible but I'm glad that I said it. From what she said it sounds like she's had her computer fixed but now has a shortfall in her council tax which it feels like she's blaming me for.

So something small has escalated into something bigger but it's not my problem. I could easily fix it with money but there will be another problem to fix again and again.

She listed all the problems she's had recently that she's had to fix herself. I forget how many. It's a long list. She's the cause of most of them, no all of them by not having enough money.

The trigger for me is when she says no one cares. I don't rise the the bait and start saying and thinking that I'm not an unkind person. I know I am. I don't have to give her money to demonstrate how kind and caring I am. This is the "cognitive dissonance" I experience. She's so good at emotional and psychological manipulation. She's a master at it.

I have the "Disease to Please". I can't please her all the time. I don't suppose anyone can. There is a big hole that can't ever be filled. She'll continue to go from one disaster to another. There will always be a crisis. There will always be an emergency.

I'm so tired after visiting my frail mother. She's been so ill for a month. My sister has never visited her during that time and she lectures me about being unkind and uncaring. It just shows me that she doesn't or can't care about anyone other than herself.

I dream about one day not hearing about all her financial and health worries any more. That will only come with no contact from me. So I use Grey Rock and Medium Chill to keep calm and detached, hoping that she'll find someone else to share her many problems with. She'll find someone eventually. I've had enough.

guitarman

I'm glad your mom seems like she's stabilizing - and you did an *excellent job* in handling your sister!   :thumbup: :righton:

No, you can't help her - or she'll be back, with her palm out, constantly, and treating you like a cash point.

She bleats a problem, and you dutifully spit out money.   :aaauuugh:

In  her mind, that's the perfect solution.   :blink:

And to list all the problems she's had to fix on her own?  Wow...welcome to REALITY, where *normal people do that stuff, every single day, without bitching a blue streak or expecting some kind of reward!*     :evil2:

Most of our problems aren't of our own making, but when they are, we usually just grit our teeth, suck it up and think, "Crap. Well, that didn't work out like I thought it would..." - and set about fixing the problem.

To her, you "not caring" really translates to, "You're not giving me what I want, when I want it."   :dramaqueen:

UnBPD Didi also loved to say nobody or no-one cared and yes, it used to make me bristle.  Those words are *designed* to make you jump!  Hustle!  Move!  Do!  Give!  Give MORE!  Give until it hurts!  And keep giving, while the goalposts are ever-moving and you never manage to fix a single one of her problems because, she'll say, *you're not trying hard enough.*

It's enough to drive you mad!   :blowup:

The truth is, you're only as good as the last thing you did for her, and her memory is probably astonishingly short, in that department.

You have to change how *you* feel when you hear those words - don't defend yourself.  You KNOW you're a good person, and hell, I know it too, just from reading your posts.  You're a kind, conscientious person, and you don't deserve this garbage.   >:(

It might help to write something down and have it near your phone - like on a card in your wallet, or a pad on your desk.

What I hope will help is writing down, "Nobody cares = fishing expedition and manipulation.  I have done MORE for her than most would even consider, but I am DONE!"

Sometimes just seeing it can help.  You know it, I know it, and everybody who reads this thread or contributes to it knows it.  It's time to SEE it, for yourself, in your own handwriting and *believe it!*   :)

When Didi would moan, "Nobody cares about meeeeeeeee..."

I got really good at  responding with a low-key, "I'm sorry you feel that way..." - and changing the subject to the weather or gardening, immediately.   :ninja:

In the last year of her life, she never did manage to figure out that her words  had no effect on me, other than to make me seethe anger into my journal, after I got her off the phone - or to post here about them, and get support.   :grouphug:

After Didi died, I found out she'd hoarded up the entire house, and unNPD Ray, then in his mid 80's, very unsteady on his pins and with a battery of health issues, was still living in it.   :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh:

He put a piece of bread in a toaster that was perched on a plastic box, I nearly lost my mind and gave him a couple of options - I dehoard it, or I call the fire marshal.

He wanted the stuff gone (it  was mostly Didi's) so I took  six months out of my life to make that happen, hauling stuff away by the Jeep-load and organizing countless haul-aways by charities, that often filled entire trucks! 

After I was done, I went VVVVVVVLC and you know what I started hearing?

Ray was badmouthing me to his doctors, the nurses, and anybody who would listen -  they often tried calling me, to get me involved in his care and would tell me he said, "She don't do nothing for me!  She don't care!"   :phoot:

What a GREAT  dad!   >:( :thumbdown:

Well, after what I'd been through with Didi and what I'd learned, I was damned certain if *that* was his mindset, I was DONE.   :ninja:

And I was.  It just about shit me to tears, knowing I was being smeared all over the city, but *those people don't know me.  They only know what Ray told them.  And I don't have to care, because what he's saying isn't true.*   8-)

If your sister calls you unkind or uncaring again, you might want to say, "Hmm...what an interesting observation..." or, "I'm sorry you feel that way..." - and *change the subject.*   :ninja:

You're right - your sister's life is full of manufactured drama and emergencies, usually of her own making - it might be time to start being "busy" and giving her the bum's rush off the phone.   :yes:

"Sis...you caught me at a really bad time, I gotta go -  goodbye." - then hang up, let her calls go to voice, and delete them without listening to them, for a period of time of your choosing.   :ninja: :thumbup:

For as much as your sister calls you unkind and uncaring, *she hasn't visited your mother, or even made an effort.*  Instead of showing compassion for YOU and saying, "Guitarman, is there anything I can do for you?  How about I visit this week, and you take some time off, and I'll keep you posted on what's going  on?""

That would NEVER occur to her, because *its' not about her* and if it isn't about her, it doesn't exist or it doesn't actually matter.  :no: :roll:

UnBPD people sometimes like to say they're empathic - what a crock!   :rofl:

Your sister can only think of herself, so it's REALLY time for you to crack down on boundaries, so she gets SO sick of your anemic attention that she moves along to the next mark.   8-)

She wants things the way they were - with you as her carer, doling out money, and listening to her screaming tantrums - and feeding her too!   :no_shake:

And that's just not sustainable, so you have to be kind of hard-core in shaking a Waif and letting them know the well is dry - emotionally, financially, spiritually, mentally.

You just can't do it.

And you don't *have to.   :)

You just have to *believe it.*  :sunny:

You've been *trained* to think you have the Disease to Please - it's been drilled into your head, over and over and over again, like a broken record that you HAVE to help *somebody who really doesn't want help.*

The truth is, the only person you really need to please is *yourself.*  :)

:hug:

This is the most accurate one line description of a PD ever, WI:

The truth is, you're only as good as the last thing you did for her, and her memory is probably astonishingly short, in that department.

it is a bottomless pit. guitarman, you're better off doing nothing, because, as you've discovered, the moment you don't do *everything* you're treated like you've never done anything anyway.

:bighug:

Thank you for your replies.

My uBPD/uNPD sister just called me. She wants £200. She was crying. She admitted that she's made mistakes. She says she can't cope. She has rent due. She's paid to have her laptop mended.

I listened attentively. I told her the good news that our mother is now back home from hospital. She didn't say much about that. She said that she's caught her lung infection from her.

I thanked her for calling and told her that I couldn't give her the money. She said that she didn't know what to do. I suggested that she contact her social worker or a mental health charity. She said that she feels like dying.

Be a lighthouse not a lifeboat.

I've had such a traumatic month coping with our frail elderly mother's serious illnesses. I'm so tired. She's not fully recovered yet and may never walk again. She was diagnosed with pneumonia and UTI. She's been refusing food and drink but is doing a bit better now. My sister hasn't visited her for over a month.

guitarman X

G-man, I'm so sorry for what you're going through--always with your sister, but now with your poor mother. Do you mind if I ask how old she is? My mom is 90 and one of the struggles I have now is how much to push treatment when she's not well-- basically, the question of treating her ailments or treating her for comfort. I lost my father three months ago, and in his last months he lost interest in eating and drinking, and this is actually a normal sign of final decline. If this is NOT where your mom is, I apologize and hope I caused no hurt by sharing this. B

My sister just visited. She was being a total waif. She told me she has heart failure and lung problems. She said she has a big electric bill to pay and needs help moving to a cheaper property as she can't do it on her own. She said no one cares. Thankfully she didn't stay long. I've not seen her for over two months. She never visited our mother when she was gravely ill in hospital or in a nursing home. Thankfully our mother has recovered but she's not as she was before she got ill with pneumonia and UTI.

guitarman X

Guitarman,
Why do you call her a "waif"??? What does that word/acronym mean to you? It is not someone's fault if they are homeless, certainly. Or an orphan for that matter.

Hi and welcome, SomethingElse   :)  - it's one of the 4 PD archetypes - queen, witch, hermit and waif.

Waifs like to *pretend* they're completely helpless and can't do a thing for themselves but whine to others that they NEED money, food, comfort, attention, a place to live, a car, anything you have, basically.  They just take and take and take and complain endlessly that nobody loves them or cares that they're SO sick, they're about to be homeless, they can't afford food, and it's a never-ending pity party of one, where they abdicate ALL responsibility for themselves, while demanding TOTAL control.  :bawl: :dramaqueen: :violin: :pissed:

The truth is waifs are *astonishingly* resourceful, once a person discards them - they always manage to find another poor sap, willing to champion their cause until they figure out what's *really* going on, and drop the waif like a hot potato.  Then the waif will find another person, and another, and another to *use.*   :stars:

Waifs LIE and have *no* ability to prioritize what's important - if it's a matter of paying rent or paying for a gym membership, they're probably going to pick the gym membership, every time, then whine and wail that they've no money for rent or food, and have to eat sugar packets, stolen from restaurants.   :violin:

Waifs are often the hardest PDs to shake, because once you help them, you're *doomed* and they just won't leave you alone until you *stop giving them anything* - time, attention, money, pity, concern, food, a shoulder to cry on, a place to live - *anything.*

They're crafty, sneaky, manipulative, and aren't above threatening suicide to get what they want - and it's incredibly destructive to those around them, who *do not deserve this constant abuse.*  >:(

UnBPD Didi, my alleged "mother" was an unBPD waif, who got it into her head that she was OWED a hospital bed in our living room, even though she didn't need it and had a freaking house and husband, and I would wait on her hand and foot, 24/7, and treat her like an overgrown *infant.*   :blink: :barfy:

That's what she wanted - to be treated like an infant, but be in *total* control of every moment, of every day!   :aaauuugh:

By using *boundaries* she never got that wish, but never stopped trying - or upping her waif games (constant health "emergencies" that were really Makitupitis), to the point that she'd cried CAAAAAANCER so many times, that when she actually DID have terminal cancer, I didn't believe her!

Well, she'd wished she was dead since I was a child, and I was happy she finally got her wish.   :phoot:

Got it?  :)

Guitarman - I wanted to say WELL DONE! on not engaging  with your sister and getting her out of your place  as fast as possible!

She's starting to sound like a broken record, isn't she?   :roll:

Does she ever NOT bring up her heart and lung issues, or needing money and nobody cares?

She WILL figure this out on her own - she always does.   :yes:

And I'm glad to hear your mother is doing better, and is out of the hospital!  8-)

*Please* make time for yourself, and practice *good* self-care.  :)

:hug:

 :yeahthat:

guitarman X

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me yesterday. She said that she's been told that she only has one year left to live. I asked her who has told her that. She didn't answer me. She says that she has heart failure. Then she blamed the family for causing it because of all the stress that apparently we've caused to her over the years by not helping her enough.

I listened to her. She was upset. She was bringing up things from the past that have upset her. I didn't say anything. She asked why I wasn't having a conversation with her and she told me that I was weird. I calmly said that I was listening.

I soon calmly ended the call. She rang back six or seven times but I didn't pick the phone up.

When she called she never asked how our frail elderly mother is doing. She was in hospital yesterday as she's not been drinking and eating much. I stayed with her in A&E all night and slept in a chair beside her bed. She's back home now. All the tests were negative. I didn't tell my sister that she'd been in hospital. I would of had a lecture and criticism from her about how I'm not looking after our mother well enough. My sister has only visited her once in the last four months and never visited her whilst she was in hospital twice before a few months ago.

I'm so worried and stressed about how ill our mother is. She's lost a lot of weight recently as she refuses to eat and drink much.

I can't cope with any more of my sister's problems. I have other things to worry about.

I'll start another post when this post is closed after reaching the five page limit.

guitarman X

I hope your mom is doing better.   :)

Good for YOU for keeping it brief and not returning all those phone calls!    :cheer: :cheer:

Obviously it wasn't important, or she'd have left messages.

In not returning her calls, hopefully you've been demoted to NOT the first available person to swindle and cheat, and listen to her bellyaching.   8-)

I'd like to see you *way* down at the bottom of a long list of people she'd rather try before ringing you.  :ninja:

Heart failure, is it?  A year to live, you say?   :snort:

She's going to look spectacularly foolish, this time next year, when she's *exactly the same as she is now* - and conveniently won't remember having said such a thing, or she found a doctor that helped her, or whatever lie she can make up on the spur-of-the-moment.   :roll:

UnBPD  Didi had been dyyyyyyying of caaaaaaaaaancer since I was very, very small, and all those health-scares suddenly stopped when she found a new hobby - miniatures - that took over her life.  She even bought a business with her unNPD friend, C, and the two of them took great pleasure in driving a thriving business to the brink of bankruptcy  in *six months.*   :blink:

It wasn't their fault - it was all those disloyal customers and their urchin *children* that they'd follow around the shop, and make rude, loud comments, like, "SOME parents know how to WATCH their children!"  :dramaqueen:

As long as she had the business, her health was GREAT - but then the business moved to a smaller place, then a smaller place, they got kicked out and wound up in C's other garage (yes, she's got two - she lives in the country), so going over didn't seem so important - and that's when she started having her "troubles" again - because she was BORED and figured I didn't have enough to do, already.   :blowup:

Pretty soon, every screening test - you know, routine tests we undergo - were, "They think I have caaaaaaancer!"   :dramaqueen: :bawl: :violin:

It got so bad, that I'd get off the phone and call, "Everybody DRINK!"  :doh:

DH would give me a look that read, "You've GOT to be kidding me!" and say, "What did they do this time?  Order a colonoscopy or send her for a pap smear?"   :evil2:

Be  warned - the woman who was sporadically always sick when I was young and constantly faking illness for attention when I was much older, lived to the age of 78.   :aaauuugh:

And when she DID actually have terminal lung cancer, I didn't believe her. 

I have a feeling you're going to get to that point, too.

Focus on your mom - is she willing to consider a care home, where she can be closely monitored? 

If she hasn't, it might be time to broach the idea and see what she thinks.  With luck, she'll be receptive to having a team of trained professionals nearby, at all times.   :)

If your mom likes the idea and wants you to look into it, *don't tell your sister until WELL after the transition is made, and she can't actually DO anything about it.*  :ninja:

I'd wait at least a month - give your mom time to settle in - before letting her know anything - if then.  Perhaps next year.  Or the year after that!

If you tell her while you're making arrangements, all she'll do is make a pest out of herself, put herself in charge, veto everything, muck up plans at the last possible second, change the move date without telling anybody or suddenly hate the home your mom is moving into and *forbid* it from happening until SHE picks one - which will *never happen* because she can't be arsed and she's so, so, SO sick, and doesn't have a car again, some more, again; she needs a thousand quid to get it out of impound, and it wouldn't have been impounded if she hadn't been SO WORRIED about your mother, so you OWE her.   :blahblahblah: :violin:

Yeah.  Been there.  Done that.  Used the tee shirt to wax my Jeep.   :evil2:

If you tell your sister well after the move is made, you can always tell her you can't talk to her when she's that upset, and hang up - then let the rest of her calls go unanswered for a good week or so - or maybe longer.   8-)

For now, just take care of YOU.  You need it - and you deserve good-self care.   :yes:

And please remember to pat yourself on the back for having the courage to shove your sister's problems back to her side of the table - where they belong - by not giving an inch on your *boundaries.*

Listening *only* is a boundary - and very good one!   :thumbup:

:hug:

Thanks I really needed to read that today. I'm feeling very vulnerable and scared about my mother wasting away. The stress trying to get her to have enough nutrition and fluids is tremendous. It's so hard being responsible for keeping someone else alive. Thankfully she'll be going to a day centre for the afternoon so they can look after her for a few hours whilst I take care of myself for a bit and have a break.

I don't ever think of asking my sister to help. It never occurs to me. She lives nearby but she causes so much more trouble than my mother ever does.

My mother has a carer visit to help me with her three times a day. My sister even said before that she needs carers for herself, implying that we should pay for them!

I talk to my sister in my head when she's not here or sometimes out loud and I'm very assertive. I practice what I might say to her saying that I've had enough of all her endless problems and that I never want to see her ever again. I say I've had enough of her abuse and am not going to participate in any more of her manipulative mind games. I tell her to go find someone else to play with because I'm done.

I imagine that would trigger a suicidal rant and meltdown if I actually said it all to her but that is how she tries to control me for years, well decades. I daren't speak the truth about my feelings. If I raised my voice, challenged or confronted her she'd turn everything around to become the victim. Abusers are all about power and control.

I fear that I might one day snap in front of her and start shouting and yelling at her. She'd love that.  So I choose to stay calm. I'm not going to let her upset me further. I choose peace. I let go of all her destruction and pain. It is hers not mine to own. I don't do idiot compassion any more, well I try not to.

guitarman X

My uBPD/uNPD sister just called me asking the family to pay her £400 gas bill. She said "Do you want me to die?". She's worried about everything again. She said that she's too ill to go to a food bank to get food.

She wanted the phone numbers of all our cousins. I've given them all to her many times before. Many of the cousins she has either been rude to or sworn at before. She wants to get money from them.

I listened. She rang off.

guitarman X

Well done. You can't solve it. You can't give your life up for hers. That's what they expect though. Incredible, but true.

Wow-
'Do you want me to die?'
There she goes again with the old emotional blackmail. Her life, or death, is her stuff; her responsibility.
Keep on keeping on with the gray rock, the detachment. It works.
You are marvellous.
I hope your mum has improved. Again, you can only do what you can do. Be easy on yourself. 😊😇⭐️🙏🏻😌

Very well done!

And I agree - her life, her death, her bills are all HER stuff and her responsibility.  If she doesn't want to manage or handle them, well, then they just don't get taken care of, and she's got nobody to blame but herself.

'Do you want me to die?'

Good grief!  But one of these days, you're going to start thinking, "I can't get that lucky."  :evil2:

That's when you know you've made *serious* progress - when your sense of humor pipes up, in your head, as a protective mechanism.  It means you've *detached* completely - and it might be time to start considering blocking her number.   :yes:

Oh yeah, just ring up people she's sworn at or yelled at, in the past, and bleat her bleats of woe and misfortune, and *surely* they won't remember how she's treated them and will just shower her with cash and prizes.   :stars:

She's going to be in for a rude awakening - and will probably be blocked by quite a few people.   :Idunno:

Keep rocking that Grey Rock - it really does help fully open your eyes to how much she's trying to *use* you - it's like she's kicking a malfunctioning vending machine, over and over, because she put in her money, but didn't get her snack.   :pissed:

There's no difference between a human and a vending machine.  In your sister's mind, it's the *same thing.*   :blink:

I hope your mom is doing better, and  I know how hard this can be - we went through something similar with DH's GM, after she fell and broke her hip.  It was just one problem, after another, after another, after another  - we began to wonder what *wasn't* wrong with her - but all we could do was sit with her and encourage her to eat and drink, and try to keep her spirits up.   :)

Please remember - if caring for your mom gets to be too difficult for you and the carer, or becomes much more than either of you can handle, it's *okay* to ask from help  from professional  organizations that deal with managing and helping the elderly.

It doesn't have to land on your shoulders - especially if her care is getting more involved and complex, and you feel she needs round-the-clock care that you can't provide.

We're often conditioned to not ask for help and figure out our own problems - I've discovered one of the *best* things we can do, when we're out of our depth is *open our mouths and SAY something.*   :yes:

There is *no* shame in saying, "I need help" to organizations that are meant to help.

It's something to consider, at least.   You are NOT alone.  :thumbup:

Please be easy and gentle with yourself.   :)

:hug:

Thanks again. You all know exactly what I'm going through as you've been through similar experiences.

My mother will be going to a day centre again this afternoon. It gives me a small break. She's not at all demanding but just refuses to eat and drink enough. She's so sweet and kind. She never complains. When words fail her she makes people laugh by poking her tongue out at them. It makes me laugh so much. I remember when she held and kissed my hand and thanked me for all that I do for her and told me that I am her friend and her pal. It made me cry.

She doesn't remember all the chaos and upset that my sister has caused. She never asks about her. When she does see her she asks her why she doesn't visit more often. When my sister rarely visits she tells her all her problems, telling her how ill she is and how difficult her life is. It makes me so angry that she tries to upset her and make her feel sad. Fortunately my mother soon forgets all about her again. My mother lives in the moment. She now can't remember the past.

When my sister called me yesterday she never asked how our mother was.

I'm trying to stay calm and not have "What if?" playing on repeat in my mind. I replace it with "What is" or "So what".

I'm quite chilled out and calm. I watch YouTube videos by Kris Godinez and think about what she says to do. That really helps.

I observe and don't absorb. Well I try.

I rapidly cycle from being weak and vulnerable to being strong and assertive. My initial reaction is to rescue my sister but then I calmly detach and stand back and realise that I can't change her no matter how much I want to.

She's had so much money already from me in the past and she's not changed. She's obtained money with menaces claiming to want to kill herself if she doesn't get it. That's abuse.

Same old stuff different day.

Thank you all.

guitarman X

My uBPD/uNPD sister just called me to tell me that she may need a heart operation. Also her car failed it's MOT and her boiler has gone wrong. It will take a week to get parts for it.

She asked me to call one of our siblings to let them know. They won't take calls from her. She wants money from them. She knows she can't get it from me. I feel like giving it to her for a quiet life but I won't. I said I would call our sibling but I'm not going to. I should have said no to her but I'm just not in any mood for her to start arguing with me. I'm calm. Thankfully she won't be able to drive her car to visit me. She could use other forms of transport if she really wanted but doesn't ever want to use it.

guitarman X

You did really brilliantly.
Keep calm and carry on. 
It's all sortable.
She's the grownup in charge of her own life.
Health issue is being dealt with by doctors.
Boiler issue is getting sorted. Parts on way.
Car can be off road until she can afford MOT.
Feel 😎 relaxed. Not your monkeys, not your circus.
🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗😊

You really did handle that brilliantly!   :worship:

She's a big girl, and can solve her own problems - they always manage to, somehow.

You have the NHS - they have doctors who are caring for her and best able to advise her.  :yes:

She has a mechanic - the mechanic can repair the car, or advise her to get another.  :yes:

Boiler parts - um...it's late June.  Your climate isn't that different than ours, which means the boiler won't kick on again until sometime in September - so she's got plenty of time to see to that.  :yes:

Her problems are her own - and mostly of her own doing.    :roll:

If she chooses not to use public transportation, that's really not your problem - and it might be a blessing to you  in that you won't see her for quite some time, and have to put up with this nonsense in person.   :yahoo:

No, it is NOT your responsibility to hit up relatives who won't speak to her, pleading her case.    If she calls and asks if you've done it, I'd just say something about not being able to reach them, but you left a message, just to get her off your back.  :ninja:

I just want you to know how *proud* of you I am - you've come  SO far, in such a short period of time!    8-)

:hug:

Thanks nanotech and WI.

I feel better today. I didn't contact my sibling. I'll update them when they contact me and say I left a message if my sister asks.

I have so many other things in my life to worry about other than my sister's on going problems. She's very clever and resourceful she is able to sort them all out for herself.

This post will be closed down as it's reached it's five page limit. I'll start another.

Thank you all for your continued support. I really appreciate it.

Best wishes

guitarman X

Hey Guitarman,

This thread has been really insightful to me as your sister is a lot like my uBPM. Because you mentioned it's reaching it's end, I went back and read if from the beginning. Along the way I copy/pasted the calls/visits you got from your sister. I thought maybe it would be helpful for you to see them in chronological order. Here are 20 separate events over the last 9 months:

The last time I saw her she told me she has heart failure

She says she's in hospital because of her heart failure, high blood pressure and other chronic conditions. She's under so much stress. 
She wants money. She says she can't cope. Her benefits are being reduced and she can't cover the shortfall in her rent....She says she's given up and hopes to die

She wants money and was shouting "For God's sake I'M YOUR SISTER!". 

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me yesterday evening. As usual she wants money. She says if she doesn't get it she'll be evicted. 
She said "I'M YOUR SISTER. I'M FAMILY". 

My uBPD/uNPD sister visited this evening. She only stayed for a couple of hours. As she was leaving she said that she's seriously ill and no one cares. 
She told me about yet more ailments she thinks she has

My uBPD/uNPD sister has just left after a visit. Thankfully she didn't stay long. She wanted money for food as she had an unexpected urgent bill to pay that she had forgotten about and hadn't budgeted for. She was saying that don't be surprised if she dies soon because of all the stress causing her heart condition to get worse. 

I experienced over half an hour of narcissistic rage from my uBPD/uNPD sister this evening. 

She was complaining about all her physical ailments. It gets nauseating to hear her repeat the same conversations over and over again about them all. She thinks she has yet another new ailment now. She's a total waif. 

I spoke to my uBPD/uNPD sister on the phone and she started talking to me about how ill she is with a chest infection as well and no one cares

My sister is very upset. However she was talking about herself and all her problems. She was saying that she should have more care from the family. 

My sister said to me that she thinks that she is so ill that she should be in hospital. 

My sister called me and she wants money for her heating bill and more care from the family. 

She said that she's got her chest infection from her. She continued to talk about all her problems and how she finds it so hard to survive. 

Just as I was leaving today for the hospital to visit my mother my uBPD/uNPD was at the door. She wanted £200 to fix her broken laptop.

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me yesterday whilst I was in the hospital about to feed our mother in bed there. She asked how our mother is then told me again about how she's caught her lung infection from her and how ill she is. She asked for £100 as there was some miscalculation in her expenses. She listed all the problems she's had recently that she's had to fix herself. I forget how many. It's a long list. She's the cause of most of them, no all of them by not having enough money. The trigger for me is when she says no one cares.

My uBPD/uNPD sister just called me. She wants £200. She was crying. She admitted that she's made mistakes. She says she can't cope. She has rent due. She's paid to have her laptop mended. 

My sister just visited. She was being a total waif. She told me she has heart failure and lung problems. She said she has a big electric bill to pay and needs help moving to a cheaper property as she can't do it on her own. She said no one cares. 

My uBPD/uNPD sister called me yesterday. She said that she's been told that she only has one year left to live. I asked her who has told her that. She didn't answer me. She says that she has heart failure. Then she blamed the family for causing it because of all the stress that apparently we've caused to her over the years by not helping her enough. 

My uBPD/uNPD sister just called me asking the family to pay her £400 gas bill. She said "Do you want me to die?". She's worried about everything again. She said that she's too ill to go to a food bank to get food. 

My uBPD/uNPD sister just called me to tell me that she may need a heart operation. Also her car failed it's MOT and her boiler has gone wrong. It will take a week to get parts for it. She asked me to call one of our siblings to let them know. They won't take calls from her. She wants money from them.


....yeesh. Big hug to you, guitarman.

Thank you for taking the time and effort for compiling all that. I'm glad that you've found what I have been posting of use to you. We are not alone.

Abuse thrives in darkness. We need to expose it and shine a light on it. We need to speak out and tell our stories. We need to raise awareness about Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome and how targets of abuse can be better helped.

Looking back on my posts it is of little wonder that I can identify with a diagnosis of CPTSD for myself in trying to cope with the stress of my sister's problems for a long time.

Recently she hasn't contacted me or visited often. She knows now that I won't give her money, so go figure. It seems that she only visited to get money from me.

I realise that I need continued support and I'm OK with that. I need cheerleaders to help and encourage me. I will gladly be a cheerleader for others and pass on what I have learnt over many decades.

I have to stay calm. I have to be firm and consistent in my boundaries no matter how often my sister threatens suicide or abuses me and pushes all my buttons.

I still feel compassion for my sister and her mental health issues but I know that I can't change her. Her condition is taking it's toll on my own mental and physical wellbeing. I have been trying to cope with her abuse for several decades. I have come to the conclusion that she won't ever change. I have to accept that.

Her pain is not mine. I shouldn't own it. I shouldn't take it on.

I have to let go of all the fear, obligation and guilt that I hold on to.

I have to observe not absorb.

I have to be a lighthouse not a lifeboat.

I have to look after me first.

Thank you all. Keep calm. Keep strong. You are all amazing.  :wave:

Best wishes

guitarman X

You sound like you're doing really well, guitarman! You have been through so much, I'm glad you
re getting a little well deserved peace and quiet. :)

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