Self-Esteem and Boundaries

[Wilderhearts]

I was reading through the boundaries post pinned at the top of this board, and someone said that boundaries and self-esteem are correlated: that if you have poor self-esteem, you'll have weak boundaries.

I know I have porous boundaries, but I've never though of myself as inherently having self-esteem issues.  I know I did at one point, when I got into a toxic relationship, but I attributed that to a really significant relationship ending prior.  I was low and lonely, and tolerated bad behaviour to escape that, and the bad behaviour (well, emotional abuse and manipulation) brought me lower.

The weird paradox is, I don't think poorly of myself. I think I'm a good person (flawed and fallible like everyone else, and capable/guilty of doing harm too) but obviously I don't expect to be treated well, or feel I deserve better than a lot of what I tolerate.  Maybe I think well of myself but rarely actually feel good about myself, and if I do it's fleeting.

How do you start to rebuild self-esteem that PDs have obliterated, or maybe even prevented you from developing in the first place, for those of us with PD'd parents?

[11JB68]

This is a great question. I feel the same way. I do have self confidence and in many aspects of my life I am confident and competent.
Yet I've allowed myself to be co opted by my uocpdh.
I've read some stuff that sometimes pwpd (maybe especially npd ?) Actually seek out smart accomplished people for relationships...

[WinterStar]

My experience is that I have emotional self esteem and rational self esteem. My rational self esteem has always been good. I know I'm competent, kind, a good person. But I often don't feel that way, and if I do something like making a mistake or something a kind, good person wouldn't do, my emotional self starts freaking out at my rational self who tries to calm the emotional self down with limited success.

I also recently learned about internal boundaries. I've been working really hard on having good external boundaries and expecting that to fix things, but my PD family hates those boundaries, and they are using every tool they have to dismantle them. I have not let any of their manipulations have any effect on my behavior at all. But, I am extremely upset by their attempts to control me. That's because my internal boundaries stink. I take feedback into my heart and wrestle with it even when it's unworthy of my time and attention. I have to learn how to evaluate feedback before allowing it to come in. If my PD brother says that I'm upsetting him because I don't respond to his communication as quickly as he would like, and I know I'm not obligated to respond at all let alone quickly, particularly when I'm busy and especially considering the fact that often my brother never responds to my messages, then clearly his feedback and judgement are garbage, and I shouldn't worry about it. But I do, so my next goal is to stop taking that crap in.

[Hopeful Spine]

I'll be following along here.  I like WinterStar's examples of emotional vs. rational.  That is what jams up in my mind.  I KNOW that I'm a good person.  I do genuinely like myself and I KNOW that I have tons of great qualities.  But when someone infers that I've not been my best I struggle.

I work in a somewhat unique industry that is very specific and subjective.  I know I do a great job.  But I used to get really worked up when someone paid a deposit and then went another direction and didn't use my services.  It really did a number on me.  Or if I a client didn't react the way I expected them to when I presented the finished product I'd really beat myself up.

One day I was complaining to my mother about how someone began work with me and then switched to another path.  They explained that they loved my work but that their budget had changed and they had a family member who could help them for free. 

Then my mother said, "Well!  They must not have wanted to work with you that badly if they had to find someone else to do that work."

And she said this sort of thing to me all the time.  (Still does).  And it made me feel bad and I stopped complaining.

Later that night I was thinking about it and I realized that what she said was crap.  They gave me a deposit.  The liked my work.  They DID want to work with me.  But the real truth of the matter was that they couldn't pay me.  And I knew for a fact that their family member was quite capable of doing the work.  And was willing to do it for free.  So there was literally NO REASON for me to feel bad toward them or about myself.  Disappointed, sure.  But I shouldn't have let my mothers words beat me up and make me feel like the real reason was because they didn't want to work with ME.  Their decision had nothing to do with ME.  It had to do with my prices and their budget but it had nothing to do with ME.

I started to realize that there are all kinds of reason for people to do things.  A cancelled meeting, a decision to use another technique, a late pick up.  Many, many, times those issues had nothing to do with ME.  Within my work I could even get to a place where I could accept it when when someone said, "thanks, but I don't really like it".  I've come to understand that you can't win them all.  And it's okay.

But when it comes to relationship - I suck.  I can't be objective.  I expect people to treat me the way I treat them.  And if they don't I consider it my problem to fix.  I NEED to get over this.

[Wilderhearts]

My experience is that I have emotional self esteem and rational self esteem. My rational self esteem has always been good. I know I'm competent, kind, a good person. But I often don't feel that way, and if I do something like making a mistake or something a kind, good person wouldn't do, my emotional self starts freaking out at my rational self who tries to calm the emotional self down with limited success.

This is a great way of understanding it - thanks for attaching some clear language to it.

I also recently learned about internal boundaries... But, I am extremely upset by their attempts to control me. That's because my internal boundaries stink. I take feedback into my heart and wrestle with it even when it's unworthy of my time and attention. I have to learn how to evaluate feedback before allowing it to come in.

Ditto - I've always struggled with emotional boundaries, because they simply didn't exist in my FOO.  I suppose this comes back to learning and practicing individuation.  That's helpful for giving me a bit more of an idea of in what direction I need to go.

I work in a somewhat unique industry that is very specific and subjective.  I know I do a great job.  But I used to get really worked up when someone paid a deposit and then went another direction and didn't use my services.  It really did a number on me.  Or if I a client didn't react the way I expected them to when I presented the finished product I'd really beat myself up.

One day I was complaining to my mother about how someone began work with me and then switched to another path.  They explained that they loved my work but that their budget had changed and they had a family member who could help them for free. 

Then my mother said, "Well!  They must not have wanted to work with you that badly if they had to find someone else to do that work."

I did a CBT group for concurrent treatment of depression and anxiety, and one of the things they taught us was how to use cognitive flexibility to not take things personally.  Turns out I take things personally A LOT.  It's one of my most frequent "stinking thinking"/cognitive distortions.  You know where I got it?  My PD'd father engrained it in me, just like you illustrated you mother tries to engrain it in you.

My uNPDf always wanted us to believe his behaviour was a direct response to us, someone.  We caused everything bad - it was always our fault.  Whatever negative things happened in our lives, it was our fault.  He brainwashed us to believe that, so that we would never think to examine or evaluate his behaviour and responsibility.  It's a process that creates "Negative Grandiosity" in Adult Children of Narcissists - this is the belief that we can affect/control everything, but only in a negative way.  Jerry Wise talks about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgfehV-s8XQ

I wonder if that's the process behind feeling poorly about myself but still rationally knowing I'm a good person and am competent  - I'm still uprooting this deeply engrained, implicit foundational belief that everything negative is my fault.  I therefore feel guilty and have to try to fix it.  Oh dear.

[Hopeful Spine]

My uNPDf always wanted us to believe his behaviour was a direct response to us, someone.  We caused everything bad - it was always our fault.  Whatever negative things happened in our lives, it was our fault.  He brainwashed us to believe that, so that we would never think to examine or evaluate his behaviour and responsibility.  It's a process that creates "Negative Grandiosity" in Adult Children of Narcissists - this is the belief that we can affect/control everything, but only in a negative way.  Jerry Wise talks about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgfehV-s8XQ

I wonder if that's the process behind feeling poorly about myself but still rationally knowing I'm a good person and am competent  - I'm still uprooting this deeply engrained, implicit foundational belief that everything negative is my fault.  I therefore feel guilty and have to try to fix it.  Oh dear.

All of this makes a lot of sense to me (unfortunately).  I mean - I look around at all the wonderful things in my life and I have to admit that I'm "good".  "Good" and "Bad" occur a lot in my thinking.  But there is something within me that doesn't allow me to behave normally. 

My parents were very strict.  If I didn't get a good grade on a test - I must not have studied enough.  Fair enough.  But it was never, "here let's sit down and figure this thing out."  Or "maybe you should be working less hours at your part-time job" (a job I needed, BTW, if I wanted new clothes or any spending money at all).  When I failed at subjective thing (like an art project or extracurricular activity) it was "well, the teacher/coach must not like you very much.  What did you do to upset her?"

All the time.  If the people I babysat for hired another girl to babysit I'd be disappointed and hurt and mom would say, "well, you must not do that good of a job or they would have asked you back."  I think back not and think of how much more helpful it would have been to a 15 year old to say, "I know you like babysitting for the Smiths.  But the girl they hired lives right next door to them and it's probably just easier for them to hire that girl for the summer.  You'll be really busy this summer working for the Johnsons"  I mean I'd still be disappointed but I wouldn't have sat in my room and cried because I wasn't "good enough". 

When friends didn't invite me places (like teenagers sometimes do) my parents would be, "I guess their not your friends, huh."  How much better it would have been if they had said, "Hey, XYZ is a good friend.  Maybe she's got a problem.  How about tonight you invite ABC over to watch a movie and tomorrow you can give XYZ a call."

And don't get me started on boys.  Once she let me go out with a guy and his friend.  They picked me up to grab ice cream somewhere.  But it didn't go well and the guy got handsy.  I was scared.  I asked to be let out of the car and I walked home.  I was crying.  I get home and mom said, "well, that's what you get when you get in the car with two boys.  If you go out with them again, you're dad is going to have a talk with them."

I mean, this boggles me.  She allowed me to go out with the boys.  Which wasn't a bad move, really.  Many teens grab a coke or run somewhere in odd amounts.  But it ended badly and instead of making me feel smart for getting out and brave for getting home.  She blamed me.  And then insinuated that I COULD see these monsters again but I had to be willing to "get them in trouble" and "let" my dad talk to them.  I mean, even typing it out now - my mind is exploding with all the garbage she dumped on a 15 year old child.  The fact that neither of my parents even spoke to those 16 year old boys or their parents is also astounding.

I could never win.  Anything I ever achieved was met with indifference.  Once I won an award and was supposed to give a speech at a function.  My mom pulled me aside before the speech to remind me that my dad doesn't like speeches so I should probably keep it short.  I epically botched the speech and was humiliated.  Like who does that to ANYONE, let alone a child that they are supposed to be proud of.

It's so strange to me today that I can remember all these hurts (and many more) and I have great ideas of how those conversation SHOULD have gone.  I KNOW that the way they treated me was unfair and unkind.  But I can't seem to sort it out in present day situations.  When I succeed I feel unworthy and guilty.  When someone disregards me I feel like nothing.  When people don't act the way I want them too I feel like I have more work to do.  I feel morally obligated to  achieve at a solid medium level (not too great because that would be showing off) in order to have everyone like me.  To have nice things (but not TOO nice) to look good (but not great).  If I do these things correctly and people respond the right way then I'm "good".  That.  That is what I deal with in almost every relationship, obligation, work function, personal decision I am faced with.  And I'm a grown adult.

[PeanutButter]

This discussion sounds to me like you may be noticing the difference between your 'true feelings vs system feelings'.
https://youtu.be/49y9sgbc3Sc
This is based on the 'family systems theory'.
"System feelings are not the true us or the true state of our feelings" (They) "...arise from our past...functioning in relationships.....push out... our true feelings.."

[Wilderhearts]

First off, I think it's amazing how you identify how your mother's behaviour affected you and your thinking patterns in all those situations, how it wasn't parenting at all, and what actual parenting (which provides support AND protection) would have looked like.  My therapist had to do some serious work to get me to even recognize the number of times I was lacking protection.  It was so absent from my life so often that, even now, it doesn't occur to me to recognize that it was missing.

Wow, your mother seemed hellbent on convincing you that people were intent on sabotaging you, or that no one liked you.  Her behaviour sounds like a hermit/witch BPD blend.  That's good cognitive flexibility you practiced, with the babysitting example. Sometimes there's a completely rational explanation that doesn't reflect poorly on us at all.  Sometimes I can find several.

When I succeed I feel unworthy and guilty.  When someone disregards me I feel like nothing.  When people don't act the way I want them too I feel like I have more work to do.  I feel morally obligated to  achieve at a solid medium level (not too great because that would be showing off) in order to have everyone like me.  To have nice things (but not TOO nice) to look good (but not great).  If I do these things correctly and people respond the right way then I'm "good".  That.  That is what I deal with in almost every relationship, obligation, work function, personal decision I am faced with.  And I'm a grown adult.

I started listening to Codependent No More, which someone from this forum suggested to me.  I'm still very early on.  I wonder if it will talk about self-esteem and self-worth, and how that's tied to basing our behaviour on others' emotions and behaviour, in order to change their emotions or behaviour.  Look good enough that you reflect well on your parents/partner but not good enough to make them feel like you'll get more attention than them, perform well enough to be useful to others but not so well they'll worry you can outperform them, all in order to prevent them from being nasty or ignoring you.

I don't have the emotional energy to watch the video right now Peanutbutter, but thanks for sharing. Nice to have found another Jerry Wise enthusiast   I like those concepts - it explains why it takes so much distance from others for me to even be able to identify my true feelings.

[tragedy or hope]

Wilderhearts,
I don't see a paradox. I think one thing that gets left out of the equation is that most of us are empaths. It is not in our nature to see a person for all their bad qualities. We are kind of ethereal in our thinking. We realize they too have some kind of spirit in them and we look for their humanity, even when they act as if they are not human.

I think many of us have self-esteem. However in my case, this is telling of me... I actually feel superior to my unpdh a lot.  This is not kind, but because I have studied the behaviors and I can spot them... I kind of know what to expect.

If I/we are making our own choices, no one should be labeling us as having self-esteem issue as if we are somehow broken. Everyone is broken on some level. I read on another sight that someone recommended here, that we are not victims because we are aware.

Give yourself credit for being an adult. You landed here. That in itself tells me you know something is wrong with the other person.

How about you are strong and compassionate. You have made it through and become a better person for the lessons you are learning. You haven't bailed out, you are looking for answers for yourself. That seems highly self responsible to me.

[PeanutButter]

Im not disputing that self esteem may be important to having boundaries or enforcing them idk, but the info that stands out in my memory corelated a strong 'sense of self' and boundaries. A 'sense of self' being a little different than 'self esteem'.
Boundaries are one of the elements necessary to have a stong 'sense of self'. 'Self esteem' is another necessity in order to have a strong 'sense of self'.

[BrightMoon]

I realize I struggle with this a lot. Some posts here have actually helped me realize it. It always felt like my self esteem was often brittle. It didnt take much from my FOO to shatter it. Or if I felt low, didnt take much from others to shatter it. And then I go into this cycle of thought of trying to see the best in them, worrying Im making too much out of things, etc.

I guess it took me a long time to learn even rational self esteem. Im literally only just realizing the difference with my i emotional esteem, and how they often dont fit together. Sometimes I've tried to batter my emotional self esteem down with the rational one. I dont know how to find a good balance between the two.