Is this the last straw?

[Cat of the Canals]

Ah, that makes sense. So you're kinda backed into a corner here. Maybe "we've not tested positive or otherwise but all things considered we're not going to be able to make it this year either. We just dont need to take the risk with covid ..." Not a lie but not the whole truth that no one else needs to be dragged off into either.

From your first post above:

Then she brought it up while at our home when we also had a friend and her kid visiting. And she broke down in tears making it so uncomfortable for everyone. And then she asked again like a week ago.

Really? Really. It steams me that your mother dragged someone else into her stuff, thinking to put you on the spot. Not cool, not cool at all. And ferpetessake, you obviously haven/t/hadn't cut her off, she was right there with you!! It's damned difficult when someone completely refuses to accept their part in the fracas but keeps on pushing it no matter your response. That tells me she doesn't want to make amends or understand, she just wants her way. That's fine, now she has to find acceptance that she's pushed too far for too long.

I like moglow's suggestion and would even shorten it to just "all things considered we're not going to be able to make it this year either. We just dont need to take the risk with covid ..." and probably something about being super disappointed/hoping you'll get to see everyone another time soon. If you feel the need for a little white lie (possible exposure in the kids' class), go for it. It's not hurting anyone.

And I totally agree with the rest as well. Your mom has been completely inappropriate across the board, but pulling that stunt in front of a third party is just so far over the line. Not only does it create an embarrassing and uncomfortable situation, but it's clear that her goal was to try to make you feel guilty/look like the bad guy in front of your friend, in hopes that (again) she'd get her way, which is incredibly manipulative.

Also agree that shorter is usually better when communicating with PDs this way. On the other hand, if this is potentially the last message before a duration of NC, I think it can be helpful for you to say your piece. To know that you've said, once and for all, everything you've wanted to say. Then again, I'm guessing you've communicated a great deal of this to her before, despite her acting like she has no clue.

Also, if communication resumes at some point, having it all laid out like this is nice because you can say, "I explained it all before, so please stop acting like we haven't discussed this."

[beepositive]

Just a thought - your family may be more aware of what's going on than you think.

Toooooootally. I know I cannot be the only family member who has brushed up against the narcissism of my mother, or other relatives. A few things have stood out to me in my adult life, that likely have much more complex back stories than I have been aware. 1) My mom and her sister are estranged, pretty much. But when I was little for a while they were the best of friends. Then they hated each other, then friends again. They are both fine artists, and both uNPD, I believe. Both have only children, two ex-husbands, and are now single. Both live and breathe the art world and dismiss the other's careers as less successful than their own. They ooooooze jealousy. I theorize that they both became narcs partially due to their dad's inability to tend to their emotional needs unless they were physically hurt, and his lack of validation of their careers and eccentricities. The oldest sib was a son who married, became a doctor, has two kids and 5 grandkids. (The one who now has covid. He's narcissistic, but I think more just a mirror of their dad.); and 2) related to all that... The brother wasn't really speaking to their parents for several years after his kids were born. I have read my grandmother's anguished journals from during that time. For some reason I inherited them. She was in a living nightmare (like my mom) and her only solace was us -- baby me, my mom and adoptive dad -- who lived locally; she and my mom spoke on the phone every day. She wrote endless pages about crying over why my uncle and his wife were cutting them off from seeing their grandkids and how she had no idea what they ever did to deserve this and it was killing them. Each one of these entries would end with "Thank god for daughter/husband/me, they are my whole reason for living"; 3) My mom and her brother have had their estranged years as well and my mom is desperate for his approval, as she was for her father's; and 4) My aunt's son NEVER COMES TO ANYTHING. He has a wife and 3 kids and everyone loves to talk about why they aren't there, what are they too good for us, they have so much money they wouldn't be caught dead in a place like this, etc. Aunt never comes either. Maybe once every 5-10 years she'll show her face.

So history repeats itself.

And then there are the other cousins, the aunts and uncles and siblings of these people, who all come from the same ancestors, who somewhere along the generational line passed on their neurosis. I know I'm not alone in experiencing this. And I know there are relatives who have been none too happy with my mom over the years. And yes, I bet some have thought wow, Meadow is a real trooper! LOL! Everyone thinks I just looooooove my mom. And well into my 30s, people would think I lived with her when I hadn't in years.

OK. Lastly, a question. And I hope it's a stupid question. Do any of my rights or responsibilities change based on the fact that my mom has helped me/my family financially, and was a big reason we were able to buy our house and settle down here? We currently have no loans between each other, no joint ownerships or properties. It has all been separated. BUT do i like, OWE her?

[Andeza]

In short. No. Her name's not on anything you don't owe her anything.

[Andeza]

Except maybe the bill for your therapy... Nah, couldn't do that in reality, but it's fun to think about for a nanosecond.

[moglow]

Not a stupid question, never!! Do you owe her, because she was in a position and offered help at a time it was needed? Sister. Sit yourself down. Put yourself in that position. Put a friend there and what you'd tell them: Your child needs help that you can give and you're in a position to do it. Do they then owe you for that?? No, they dont. You don't. You appreciate it and it was a great boost at a good time. It wasn't a down payment on a lifetime of complacency, abuse and tickets on the guilt trips.

Mine tried that once [because she likes to fling it in your face when things go sideways or upside down in your life], "who gave you money when ...???" Yes, you did and again, I appreciated it more than I can say. Don't know how I'd have managed at the time without it. I also made a point to pay you back every dime and then some as soon as I was able. I robbed Peter to pay Paul to see to it that I repaid you. End of.

[Cat of the Canals]

 

If she felt like there were strings attached, that's her problem. And if you go about your life making everything transactional, the disappointment that ensues is your own damn fault.

[beepositive]

We are here on our alternative trip. It's great. The kids love it. But I am feeling so deeply guilty. My cousin texted me that she had brought special games to play with the kids. And asking if we are symptomatic (I did use the class exposure excuse). I feel like a terrible mom who is keeping the kids from their family. I feel sad. Many of these people I won't have the opportunity to see for another year. They'll miss seeing the kids at this age.

Man. It just sucks.

[moglow]

Doing the right thing for your family doesn't [and wont] always feel good at the time. It sux on one level yes, but try and not lose what you have. Try to let go of the guilt for refusing to burn yourself down in the process - that's not yours to carry.


You'd have been edgy and walking on broken glass had you gone. Take a minute and predict any one thing your mother might have said, the meltdown she may have staged in front of your family. There. You didn't have to put everyone through that. Find forgiveness and be thankful for at least that.


Either way, the kids will have a great time and that's the goal. Go have fun and make memories!

[beepositive]

Doing the right thing for your family doesn't [and wont] always feel good at the time.

This is my new mantra. Thank you.

There truly is no way for everyone to win. And it's really uncomfortable to choose me when I'm used to choosing her. Of course, it's freeing too. I could see maybe someday being at peace with it.

[moglow]

That training goes deep, doesn't it.  It takes time, turning off those voices and understanding that it really isn't your job to make everything okay for your mother and her "image."

Breathe, you're gonna be fine. A little distance may be exactly what you need.

[beepositive]

I thought about starting a new thread, but I'm coming back to this one because it seems like this is really just a continuation of the same situation. So, hi. Thank you everyone who helped me so much with standing up for myself and my family recently. We skipped the family reunion, took our own weekend trip, and kept it a secret. Now my whole family thinks we had a COVID scare, but oh well. My mom never responded to our email saying we couldn't come to the reunion, or even my personal text to her saying we were exposed to COVID. Which makes me think she always assumed I was lying. But whatever.

The following week, I sent her a message stating that we're not going to allow her to be with the kids alone, and that she may not be willing or able to understand our reasoning. I told her we can't force her to get it, but she can't keep playing these guilt trips and expecting them not to have any impact. I told her this is a dynamic that goes way back with her and I, but that I now have children and need to protect myself and my family from emotional abuse. I declined her suggestion that we need to have a big heart-to-heart in order to make amends, and told her basically she needs to act right and not ask me to nudge this boundary ever again.

I predicted her response would be cold and resentful, but not obnoxiously so. I think I was right on the money. She wrote back "Are there conditions within which I can continue to spend time with E & I? I will abide by whatever you request. I love you, mom. That is not to 'bring it up' it is just to know where we stand now." I told her that is not what I meant by bringing it up. I never said she can't see us or the kids at all. And now, 4 days later, she's texting me asking "Now that school is out, maybe I can stop by the play with the kids sometime? Or before bed to read a story?"

I don't really know what this looks like going forward. I work full-time in my office upstairs. I do therapy on the phone and work on a call center so it's completely inflexible. My wife is working from home all summer and simultaneously watching the kids. They will do a few weeks of camp here and there as well. I cannot force my wife to have my mom hanging around during the day. And I am not there except for short breaks and lunch. Coming to read them a story at bedtime is .... complicated at best. I feel like she's trying to make it sound simple when it's not. And ultimately, even though I said we can still see each other, I also said her guilt trips have an impact. It's not so easy to just say yeah, come on over. I'm not sure how to proceed.

[beepositive]

I forgot to mention. Yesterday, I was processing all this and considering how to respond to my mother's text. I didn't tell my wife about it during the day because we were both working. Meanwhile my mom posted on facebook a picture of her flowers with the caption, "I am thankful for my garden and studio when I am very sad and angry." JHC. Ok, it occurred to me later she might be talking about the general state of the world, supreme court decisions, politics, etc. But she N-E-V-E-R posts stuff like that. She mostly only posts art-related things, never anything emotional, or barely even personal. This was so vague and felt very much like it was connected to our situation. I know I can't assume that, but it pissed me off. And again, is making it even MORE difficult to respond to her request. I cannot be around her if she is full of anger and resentment. But of course if I say something she'll probably just gaslight me.

[moglow]

She wrote back "Are there conditions within which I can continue to spend time with E & I? I will abide by whatever you request. I love you, mom. That is not to 'bring it up' it is just to know where we stand now."

Head exploding - you JUST told her, and that IS her bringing it right back up. You weren't vague and there wasn't gray area - you said No. JHC indeed.

Me, I'd not allow her to "just stop by to play." She can plan ahead and visit with all of you when you're not working. Working from home doesn't preclude your working hours, you still have jobs. You can meet her at a park or [possibly?] short visits at her home, my thought is that once she's in your house it's gonna be hard to get her out without an incident. And reading bedtime stories as a drop in visit? Is it just me or isn't that in itself rather disruptive to the kids' bedtime routine?

She's still not grasping that she's not being cut off, she's just not allowed to steamroller her way through your lives. She can be sad and angry all she wants, but this is YOUR family. She has the same options as everyone else on the planet: make plans with our family and we'll be glad to see you. Push and keep on pushing and I'm going to make other plans without you.

I'd probably not respond to her next messages, whatever they may be. When I'm ready to visit, let her know we can [xyz on abc day] and would that work for her? If not, perfectly okay. Some other time then. Then go about your day.

[Andeza]

Ugh, MIL asked to put DS to bed at some point or another. It never happened. She couldn't be bothered to stick to our schedule and kept showing up ten to fifteen minutes too late. Oh well. No you can't go in there now, he's in bed! I didn't really want her to anyway because she=play to our son at that point. He would have just gotten hyped up and not settled for her, had a late bedtime, and been cranky all the next day. That's a big "No" vote from this momma because I would have been the only one actually affected by the cranky.

[Cat of the Canals]

Head exploding - you JUST told her, and that IS her bringing it right back up. You weren't vague and there wasn't gray area - you said No. JHC indeed.

This was my thought as well. She wants to know what the "conditions" are?????? I'm a stranger on the internet and even I know what the conditions are: There will be no 'alone time' with the kids. There will be no questions about when that might change.

And of course she asks for bedtime... one of the most stressful parts of the daily routine with kids. Is there a chance she asks for things she knows you'll say no to just so she can continue laying guilt trips? Because really. Asking to do bedtime is a Huge Ask in my book.

Agree x 1000 with moglow that you should make it clear that any playdates with grandma need to be booked in advance. Even if you and your wife weren't so busy, your time is still valuable, and your mother is NOT entitled to even a second of it.

I totally understand your reticence to set any sort of date for a get-together when the latest blow-up is still so raw, so I'd suggest taking MORE time before you commit to anything. Your mom is probably going to keep pushing -- the thing about PDs is they've figured out that if they stop asking after you say "no" then they don't get what they want. So they will ask and ask and ask like a small child wanting candy in hopes that you eventually cave and give the what they want. If they keep asking, they still have a chance! 

[beepositive]

Head exploding - you JUST told her, and that IS her bringing it right back up.

Wait, is she? Am I literally so brainwashed I can't even see it? I meant for her not to ask us again to see the kids solo, ie: babysitting or having them over to her house alone. Her questions are asking to confirm that she can still see the kids at all EVER. Like, to make sure we aren't cutting her off entirely. Of course, it doesn't make any sense asking, because I never said anything of the sort. And I DID find it really annoying because it was totally unnecessary and just feels like desperation, guilt, pressure, etc.

It's like if I said to a friend, sorry I can't hang out this weekend. And then they ask me the next day, will you ever be able to hang out anytime this year??? It's like, um. What?

[moglow]

I'd suggest taking MORE time before you commit to anything. Your mom is probably going to keep pushing -- the thing about PDs is they've figured out that if they stop asking after you say "no" then they don't get what they want. So they will ask and ask and ask like a small child wanting candy in hopes that you eventually cave and give the what they want. If they keep asking, they still have a chance!  (https://outofthefog.net/forum/Smileys/default/roll.gif)

Yep. You have to reinforce your boundaries and live them rather than repeatedly restating in an infinite number of different ways, hoping to get through to her. She's still hearing exactly what she wants. But yes, she keeps this stuff up and it's entirely possibly you have to shut it all the way down. She needs to learn to treat people better - and we learn by doing. Enough's enough already. You're a package deal with your family, so that "treating people better" most assuredly starts with you.

"Are there conditions within which I can continue to spend time with E & I? ... That is not to 'bring it up' it is just to know where we stand now."

To me that reads exactly like, "just me and the kids." She said *I* and the kids, no mention of you or your wife, thus where my train of thought went. Not that you've not already said multiple times, but YOU and the kids will still visit or have her over, at your invitation.

Personally I think it's time to stop responding to the requests for more time, other time, babysitting time. Tell her y'all will get together soon, then plan something. Y'all have jobs, no doubt the children have activities, camp, etc. Some coordination is needed and you'll do what you've done in the past. Show her that hasn't changed - unless she makes it so uncomfortable that you don't want to put anyone through it. And if/when that happens, you may have to go silent. Put her calls/text on silent, and respond when you're ready. Or not.

[beepositive]

To me that reads exactly like, "just me and the kids." She said *I* and the kids, no mention of you or your wife, thus where my train of thought went.

I see what you're saying. My wife did not like that either, how she only mentioned the kids. She said she just feels like it's more about us being in her way. Not about having a relationship with our family. It's almost like she's given up on me, and thinks maybe she can at least get the kids on her side before she dies. Which honestly, when you think about it that way, just seems kind of psycho.

I hate this.

[moglow]

She said she just feels like it's more about us being in her way. Not about having a relationship with our family. It's almost like she's given up on me, and thinks maybe she can at least get the kids on her side before she dies.

It may be as simple as knowing on some level that she's peed in the nest with you and knows there's no going back. That's fine, but she's not understanding that THAT is the person you know and why you are where you are. You don't want to inflict THAT on your children or have her undermine your family. You're a unit and that unit comes first, not your mother's need to be all-important to them.

Your children aren't there to choose sides, and the very idea is repulsive when you think about it. That smacks of divide and conquer maneuvers, which is exactly what my mother tried all our lives. Her mother did the same with mother and her siblings and they tried to branch it out from there. You know what she has now? One of her four children talks to her regularly and when she acts up or goes sideways, he leaves. He doesn't put up with or make excuses for it. Two haven't laid eyes on her in over 10 years, they communicate strictly by text. One of those said to me, he can tolerate texts because he "doesn't have to hear her voice." I live less than two hours away, have been in her town and as far as I know she has no idea I've been anywhere near, for over two [or three?] years now. She has shown no interest in coming here, even though two of her grands and two of her own children live nearby. Phone calls became so painful with the repetitive nonsense and her blistering meltdowns that in person visits became a non-issue for me. I'm good with that finally.

[beepositive]

She wants to know what the "conditions" are?????? I'm a stranger on the internet and even I know what the conditions are: There will be no 'alone time' with the kids. There will be no questions about when that might change.

So true. That's the key. She is asking me to define the conditions that I've just defined. Now that I've made it clear what she can't have, she wants to know what she can have. The answer is obvious... but she wants to force me into giving her an example of what we will allow. She basically just wants to know when and under what circumstances she will see the kids. There's no reason to answer that question so I didn't. I just said essentially, same as before. And then of course a couple days later she starts throwing out suggestions since she hasn't heard from me. How about I come over at the most stressful time of the day, or while you are both working?!  Like, really?

The problem is, it's not the same as before. It's worse. There is fresh damage.