Oh no this is going to change everything! Bad news today..,..

[Leonor]

Dear P,

Truly, we understand and we are supportive, and we are all trying to express our concern and best wishes for you and your family, given your father's relentless onslaught of need and self-centeredness.

But to do so, we would be remiss if we didn't encourage you to empower yourself in this relationship so that you are not constantly under this stress and experiencing so much anxiety ... As well as gently remind you that there are other people in your life who have a greater claim on your loyalty, time, and energy.

From your posts, it seems that you agree, but you are frustrated that your father does not understand it. He doesn't. He won't. He can't.

But it isn't his incapacity to validate you that is causing the frustration. Your frustration is borne of your insistence that he change. But the only person who can change is you - and the only thing you can change that will bring you any relief is to accept that he's a selfish old man who is never going to change.

No one is upset with rants or difficulty or pain or challenges, P, we're all walking this path together. And sometimes a good walk gets a bit hilly from time to time. You're almost at the summit. Enjoy the view!

[NarcKiddo]

 

This is a really interesting thread with lots of good ideas. That said, I can understand why p123 might now be feeling a bit defensive and I do think it is a shame if people find themselves feeling that way here.

It can be really hard to put good advice into action, especially where parents are concerned. Even if our logical brain fully understands and accepts the wisdom and practicality of what is being suggested, our emotional brain  and inner child can band together with other reactions entirely. Let us not forget, too, that old habits die hard and PDs are relentless. If they know that a certain result has been obtained in the past it takes an enormous amount of effort to persuade them that the same result is no longer available.

A previous poster pointed out that the dad is pushing buttons he installed, so he knows very well where they are and how to push them. I think many of us kids of PD parents have had a strong sense of duty (as defined by the parent) instilled in us. It is really, really tough to step back from that. It is certainly a huge factor in why I don't think I could ever go fully NC. Also, it is tough to escape the fact that we really, really wish our parents were good enough people who love us in a good enough way. Often they have told us they love us and pointed out all the things they have done for us. That was our only definition of love as a child. It is what we grew up with. We have a tendency to clutch at any straw, at the slightest hint that maybe they do care, and are good at gaslighting ourselves, too. At least, I am, and I'm sure I can't be alone. Add to that the fact that PDs usually exist on a spectrum, that our parent might actually love us to some extent in their own weird way, and that there have likely been some happy times along the way for most of us, and you have a perfect mindf***. Accepting that a parent actually does not love us in the way we thought/hoped and will not ever change is, to my mind, almost like killing the parent we believed we had, and then having to mourn their death. While they are still alive. 

I do like Leonor's comment that we are all walking this path together, and sometimes a good walk gets a bit hilly. Well put.

[SunnyMeadow]

The comment about WI was REALLY unnecessary as well IMHO. Why did you do that?

Points out a pattern that goes back years and years. Hopefully you will put some of this good advice into practice in your life. Advice is still the same, your dad isn't going to change - you have to change.

[hhaw]

P:

There are compassionate and supportive posts on this thread. 

This thread also offers more direct posts. They remain compassionate and supportive also, in my view.

All are well intentioned, ime.

All extended in thoughtful efforts to help.

Not gonna lie......one feels discomfort reading overtly direct posts.  Esp if judgment and expectation are felt.

Some posters post comfort and comfort can lighten burdens..... make them easier to bare.  Maybe possible to bare.

The more direct posts aren't intended to comfort and help you bare your burden, I admit.  They're intended widen your gaze, shift perspective and provide light down possible alternate paths you might travel, but maybe haven't considered.  Yet. 

You might never go VLC. 

You might go NC.

You might worry about your father and hope he changes till he passes away from this earth.

Giving up hope a parent will change and become loving/caring is like accepting the death of the parent who'll never existed.

There's mourning.  There's pain.  There's doubt and these things are unknown territory.  Humans don't do well with unknowns, but acceptance frees the mind for what comes next.  Healthier things.  Real things, in front if us now.  It vanquished ghosts and removes filters altering perceptions and coloring everything one sees and hears so one sees what's really there, ime.

I, personally, don't believe I had the emotional and physical resources to face my causes and conditions creating my disordered coping strategies so I could  change them in a meaningful way.

I see how I would have benefitted, but not how I could have turned toward more pain and discomfort on top of raising children while enduring PD crisis (inflicted on us with intention to do more trauma.)  I didn't begin healing until my children began falling apart, then we were in triage mode....my youngest DD20 inherited the coping strategies I modeled for her.....super self sufficient, can't ask for help and can barely accept it, even when she's sick and beyond her ability to cope....all trauma responses passed generation to generation, hers and mine, btw.  My point is, youngest DD pretended she was ok linger tgan my oldest DD could. 

I think your F's words and beliefs effect you deeply.  I think you're stoic and put your needs last.  I might be wrong.  I'm able to hold space for not knowing everything about you and your situation.  I hope it makes it easier for you to hear me.

From where I stand....

I worry you're modeling coping strategies for your child that will bring suffering to them and your family, leaving  you no choice but to examine and replace possibly unhealthy coping strategies and patterns in your life.

I wish I'd been able to do the work 20 or 10 years ago...15.  I didn't know what help was possible or available....I sought out regular Therapists  lacking training in trauma work....they did more harm than good, truthfully.

  I was seeking mental health suppirt out of ddesperation AND as legal strategy AND then to protect my children. 

Desperation is a terrible position to seek help, ime.

You might never experience this kind of desperation, but most posters on this board do, more or less.

This is generational trauma work and it just takes one generation to stand and face the underlying causes, process the trauma, heal and dispell the fear with truth to create healthier strategies/boundaries and skilis our children carry into their relationships and lives.

Proactivity is a choice.  It's possible. 

Does that make sense?  I hope it does, bc posters are holding lamps down paths your on, but also possible paths you might avoid or alternately select, ime.

All posters are well intentioned, imo.

I hope you re read this thread without judgment or expectation. If you can embrace curiosity, instead, it's helpful, as is willingness to accept everything you can't change.

What you CAN change is what you model for your child and I hope you SEE the difference between worry worry worry coping strategies and doing what you can, then putting the story on the shelf, unapologetically,so you may turn towards the joy in front if you in every moment.

My deepest regret is the time I lost being present with my children (bc the PDs held so much of my focus)and my unexamined worry worry worry coping strategies, installed in my children without my understanding. 

I've stopped ruminating and chosen to seek healing and joy instead of despair/fearing into the future, but every choice was informed by despair and desperation = an emotional blowtorch (fig.)
Not a strong position.

I try to figure out what could have impacted my situation, gained my understanding, created commitTed self reflection and understanding of generational causes and conditions the lead to mitigating so much harm, I might have avoided.



You've been gifted very direct truths/information on this thread.  I invite you to consider them while assuming the best possible intentions. Or not.

You're free to dismiss what doesn't help. 

You're free to ask ONLY for posts supporting your current path. 

That way, posters shining lights on alternate paths won't spend time upsetting you instead of helping.   

Help is the goal, imo.

Practicing boundaries on the board is healthy and helpful, ime.  I think we're all practicing, if imperfectly.  I have to remember help is the sunny side of control and I suffer needlessly if I hold expectations when posting advice to others.

















 

[SunnyMeadow]

My deepest regret is the time I lost being present with my children (bc the PDs held so much of my focus)and my unexamined worry worry worry coping strategies, installed in my children without my understanding.

First of all, excellent post hhaw. You show a true depth of understanding and caring. All of the people posting their advice in this topic are so helpful, filled with good information. You're right about there being two kinds of posts here. I did the compassionate and supportive posts to p123 for quite awhile. I can only hope they offered guidance. Maybe the direct approach will be helpful and/or eye opening or perhaps not.

I also deeply regret the time I lost parenting my children. I had to be uber focused on my mother and her feelings to keep the peace. At least that's what I thought at the time. I spent years, decades actually focusing more on my mother than my marriage and sometimes my children as well. It's awful to think back on it.

When I finally got here to the Out of the FOG forums I was a wreck. Filled with anxiety, trying to anticipate her every move and mood. I truly took everyone's advice and guidance to heart and implemented the advice as best I could. I made notes for when I talked with her on the phone. I kept in mind phrases to minimize the damage when I visited her. I remembered WI's  advice and more.

And the best part ... it worked. My anxiety lessened, my "I don't give a darn" attitude improved and I got mental space from my covert mother. I could do an obligation visit, leave and think "meh" her words can't hurt me. The advice given here WORKS! It works because I changed me, there was no way I was going to change her. I wished she would've changed her ways for my whole entire life. She never did.

You've been gifted very direct truths/information on this thread.  I invite you to consider them while assuming the best possible intentions. Or not.

You're free to dismiss what doesn't help. 

You're free to ask ONLY for posts supporting your current path. 

That way, posters shining lights on alternate paths won't spend time upsetting you instead of helping.   

Help is the goal, imo.

Yes, help is the goal. Although it's hard to take the initial steps and to realize that the one person who can help your situation is you, it's necessary. It's tried and true as witnessed by all the people sharing this advice time and time again.

[p123]

Yeh thanks all - I know I know I know - Im really bad at distancing myself from Dad.....
Jeez hes the master at it though - give him that.

Its ramping up to something I can see. Hes iller and iller every time I speak to him . Hes done this before.
I can see whats coming - it'll be a "test" for me. He'll phone and say he can't breathe or has chest pains and he has to go to hospital now. Then it'll be a test whether I'll do it.

Not happening this time. I'll phone for an ambulance for him.

[NotCryingGlitter]

Yeh thanks all - I know I know I know - Im really bad at distancing myself from Dad.....
Jeez hes the master at it though - give him that.

Its ramping up to something I can see. Hes iller and iller every time I speak to him . Hes done this before.
I can see whats coming - it'll be a "test" for me. He'll phone and say he can't breathe or has chest pains and he has to go to hospital now. Then it'll be a test whether I'll do it.

Not happening this time. I'll phone for an ambulance for him.

Is change possible? Yes, but the person has to recognize they are wrong in order to change. And that's why change is so rare with these types of people, because they never believe they are wrong or won't admit it if they do. Once we realize they are the type of person who will never admit any wrong, and we are convinced of that, then that's when we accept that we will never achieve their unfair and ridiculous standards. Their standards amount to us doing everything they say when they say it, how they say it, and without questions or doubts. When I realized that, it took weight off my shoulders at the time (and some now....other things in way at current time), because then I knew nothing I did would change their abuse or actions to me -- and that fault belonged to them, not me.

You are taking responsibility by calling an ambulance, because it shows you are doing what you need to do in order to take care of him, while still trying to create a boundary to protect yourself. You're making sure you BOTH get care without losing yourself in the process.

[Leonor]

Hello dear P,

Oh, calling an ambulance would be the kind and helpful and wise thing to do! Because if your dad is in a health crisis - or feels he is in a health crisis - or as my FIL used to do, interpret his anxiety as a health crisis  (and that level 9f anxiety can certainly lead to a physiological crisis), then the best and most able and safest people to care for him are the paramedics. He'll be able to get to hospital in a clinic in wheels, where he can get treatment by professionals on the way if he needs it.

So please do not think of yourself as being cold or distant or uncaring of Dad calls and says, I feel terrible and you call an ambulance; that is exactly what ambulances are for!

If he fusses, yes, it's frustrating and manipulative, but he's also afraid. You can show your caring and concern by reassuring him, "They'll take good care of you, Dad, and I'll follow up with the doctor after he's had a look at you."

That is a warm, supportive thing to do. And if he doesn't like it, which he won't, then you just stay centered in your awareness that he is old, and set in his ways,.and is worried. Much like a little child, you can show your love by taking clear headed decisions and calm tones.

Best to you

[p123]

Hello dear P,

Oh, calling an ambulance would be the kind and helpful and wise thing to do! Because if your dad is in a health crisis - or feels he is in a health crisis - or as my FIL used to do, interpret his anxiety as a health crisis  (and that level 9f anxiety can certainly lead to a physiological crisis), then the best and most able and safest people to care for him are the paramedics. He'll be able to get to hospital in a clinic in wheels, where he can get treatment by professionals on the way if he needs it.

So please do not think of yourself as being cold or distant or uncaring of Dad calls and says, I feel terrible and you call an ambulance; that is exactly what ambulances are for!

If he fusses, yes, it's frustrating and manipulative, but he's also afraid. You can show your caring and concern by reassuring him, "They'll take good care of you, Dad, and I'll follow up with the doctor after he's had a look at you."

That is a warm, supportive thing to do. And if he doesn't like it, which he won't, then you just stay centered in your awareness that he is old, and set in his ways,.and is worried. Much like a little child, you can show your love by taking clear headed decisions and calm tones.

Best to you

Sure. Part of the problem is that I think hes on some sort of ban list here.

He went through a phase of calling them every week and someone did call him to tell him to stop doing it. Last time he called they turned up the next day. Of course he moaned a lot but I could see why they weren't happy.

Oh hes done it tons of times. I've rushed over there and walked through the door expecting him to be half dead and theres nothing wrong.

But you're right he doesnt want an ambulance he wants me to rush over there. Sending an ambulance is calling his bluff. I will do it - although I will feel bad knowing its wasting ambulance time - just so he knows he can't up the stakes without there being consequences.

[p123]

Well I've got a date for the funeral - trying day thats going to be. Hes already making his demands for the day.

Last night he gave me his cousins daughter number and said "you need to ring her because its right that you do. Then he wanted me to "ring her now so I know you've done it". Hang on Dad Im not 9 years old. This lady is what my 2nd cousin or something, I've probably met her twice in my life. Yeh I'll text her and also to get funeral details but thats Dad all over - this is how the world works, do it now, Im in charge.

Anyway I said, NO I'm not. I will sort it. Drop it.

[hhaw]

P:

What can you do, proactively, regarding your F's care?

If he's calling for ambulances, emergency room escorts and nothing's wrong with him....that's problematic.

Seems he'll suffer when real health crisis pop up, be difficult to place in assisted living and burn you out in a short period if you try to fill the gap your cousin filled.
This is esp true if your brother is self protecting and refusing to be manipulated and jerked around on demand.

I hope you and your brother can come together to assess, accept and act (AAA) as a team to support each other and avoid being triangulate.

What are your F's needs?

What financial resources are available to meet those needs?

What options are available to help your F with every day care?

What are options for future care, assisted living, nursing homes in the area you'd want your father to be?

In our area, it's not uncommon to see 2.5 year waiting lists for assisted living and nursing home placements.

Also, F calling ambulances without cause is slipping into territory where he's likely not considered in his right mind, esp if he refuses to take care of basics he should be able to handle, and afford, like procuring groceries and rides to the doctor.  We have a free shuttle bus my neighbor arranges 24 hours ahead for his many appointments and he's missing ligaments, an eye and has trouble getting around, but he has no choice IF no one can take him, which is often the case.

Doing things for tour F, he should and can do for himself, is enabling, imo.

Allowing him to deal with the consequences of his inaction leads to questioning his competency, ime. 

What happens if you and your brother end up in charge of decisions and F's resources? 

I don't see things getting easier and maybe your cousin's passing does change everything.

Maybe your F has to do for himself or lose his ability to make any choices?

I know you aren't responsible to be F's slave, bc he demands it like a toddler till you give in.  You don't have to DO anything your F insists you must.

Your brother seems to have the right idea....I hope he'll support you in self care, as well.

Is there a plan?

Who do you need to talk to to have tour father declared incompetent?  He has the money to hire the care he needs...maybe he'll forfeit his choice if the only choices he'll allow are for you to diminish yourself and health so F doesn't have to spend any money.

Your brother isn't upsetting his entire life.

Why should you?

I'm asking....why you?

[p123]

Quite funny on the phone tonight. Dad last few years has got a weird habit of blurting things out on the phone that hes thinking. Done it loads of times... Its almost as if its on his mind and he does'nt realise hes saying it. Then again maybe he is and its deliberate?

Anyway tonight on the phone he said sort of under his breath. "Let him off this weekend, but he'll have to take me out next weekend". And then carried on with a separate conversation!

Weird. Oh well at least I know whats coming next week!

[hhaw]

it hit very creepy, for me,  no humor.

Reminds me of
Gollum....
and his precious.

Nothing in the world can change his single minded persuit of something he's not entitled to, but was stolen from someone he loved.... someone he should have protected, not stangled to take what wasn't his.

Your father is like a drowning gollum..... he'll take down anyone he can to keep his emotional head above water, such as it is.

There's nothing in this world to slake his need and knowing that, how can one justify getting dragged in over their head with your F in order to NOT save him?  His needs aren't reasonable and he cares nothing about the needs of those he makes demands of.  That's not reasonable, so it it reasonable he'd be calling the shots and in the driver's seat?

Save yourself and your marriage/family/child.

Who cares what everyone else thinks.  Third party onlookers, who judge without having all the facts, aren't worthy of care for their DIM opinions (Denial/ignorance/minimization.)  Let them swoop in and take F to the emergency room every call.  Let them bring a bag of groceries here and there, as demanded, regardless of their obligations and responsibilities to their young famiies.

Then ask for their opinions.  Until then, tney should consider keeping them to themselves, IME.

Or not. 

Knowing your worthy and putting self care in place, as priority, is worth more if you believe in it.

If you buy into your father's belief system, even a tad bit in your unconscious mind, maybe taking a stand here and there is about appeasing other posters on this board and not about a shift in your perspective and belief system.

Food for thought, p.

[p123]

Thanks hhaw - made me laugh - Gollum....

Yes it is a bit strange. Dad is religious (which is a joke in itself but there we go) and the one time I was speaking to him had said but bye and out came "Oh thank you god hes visiting me! Hes visiting me" Now that freaked me out a lot!

Im not that religious but I'm sure God has got better things to do with his time than make sons visit their Dads!

[p123]

it hit very creepy, for me,  no humor.

Reminds me of
Gollum....
and his precious.

Nothing in the world can change his single minded persuit of something he's not entitled to, but was stolen from someone he loved.... someone he should have protected, not stangled to take what wasn't his.

Your father is like a drowning gollum..... he'll take down anyone he can to keep his emotional head above water, such as it is.

There's nothing in this world to slake his need and knowing that, how can one justify getting dragged in over their head with your F in order to NOT save him?  His needs aren't reasonable and he cares nothing about the needs of those he makes demands of.  That's not reasonable, so it it reasonable he'd be calling the shots and in the driver's seat?

Save yourself and your marriage/family/child.

Who cares what everyone else thinks.  Third party onlookers, who judge without having all the facts, aren't worthy of care for their DIM opinions (Denial/ignorance/minimization.)  Let them swoop in and take F to the emergency room every call.  Let them bring a bag of groceries here and there, as demanded, regardless of their obligations and responsibilities to their young famiies.

Then ask for their opinions.  Until then, tney should consider keeping them to themselves, IME.

Or not. 

Knowing your worthy and putting self care in place, as priority, is worth more if you believe in it.

If you buy into your father's belief system, even a tad bit in your unconscious mind, maybe taking a stand here and there is about appeasing other posters on this board and not about a shift in your perspective and belief system.

Food for thought, p.

Believe it or not Im 100x better than I used to be. It got so bad that I know I would be divorced now if I didnt stop what I was doing.

Dad is weird. He thinks women should be seen and not heard. I rememeber saying this before - many times I've said something like "No Im not doing that because x won't be happy" and hes said something like "you need to do what you need to do to make that wife of yours remember whos in charge". That was a bit scary I remember at the time and I was thinking "no surely he wasnt implying that" but hes said things again.....

[Leonor]

Hello dear P,

So, we've all been focussing on Dad for a long time: how he is, what he is, why he is, and so on. And, to give him his due, there's a lot to unpack there!

Maybe another interesting avenue  would be: what is motivating you? What are you getting out of the relationship with your Dad staying just the way it is?

And I don't mean pragmatically (like taking him places and visits and stuff), I mean psychically. What is your payoff for remaining emotionally enmeshed with your Dad, at the expense of time and investment in your marriage and children?

You are getting something out of this, too, dear P. And that's not an attack or a put down. In fact, I'll go first: I stayed enmeshed with my mom because I got a big payoff. I got to be the golden child. I got to feel superior to my siblings. I got to feel special without actually doing anything to earn it. I got to feel safe from her abuse. Oh, and she was wealthy. So I got a literal payoff, too.

Now, that's not a fun thing to admit. Bit the only way to disentangle myself and resolve my dissociation was to acknowledge that I was actively participating in the enmeshment because I was getting things from it. Real things. I was using her, too.

Dear P, what is your payoff for keeping your headspace around your Dad exactly as it is?

[p123]

Hello dear P,

So, we've all been focussing on Dad for a long time: how he is, what he is, why he is, and so on. And, to give him his due, there's a lot to unpack there!

Maybe another interesting avenue  would be: what is motivating you? What are you getting out of the relationship with your Dad staying just the way it is?

And I don't mean pragmatically (like taking him places and visits and stuff), I mean psychically. What is your payoff for remaining emotionally enmeshed with your Dad, at the expense of time and investment in your marriage and children?

You are getting something out of this, too, dear P. And that's not an attack or a put down. In fact, I'll go first: I stayed enmeshed with my mom because I got a big payoff. I got to be the golden child. I got to feel superior to my siblings. I got to feel special without actually doing anything to earn it. I got to feel safe from her abuse. Oh, and she was wealthy. So I got a literal payoff, too.

Now, that's not a fun thing to admit. Bit the only way to disentangle myself and resolve my dissociation was to acknowledge that I was actively participating in the enmeshment because I was getting things from it. Real things. I was using her, too.

Dear P, what is your payoff for keeping your headspace around your Dad exactly as it is?

I see what you mean and I've ha d a think about it.

What am I getting out of it - hmmm nothing as far as I can see. Don't want his money etc. I guess all I'm getting is an easy life without a major blow up from him. I just rumble along with him being annoying.

Guilt a little these days not as much, but more a feeling of I can't extract myself or don't want the major hassle extracting myself fully would mean.

[Boat Babe]

If you're seeing it as an either/or situation then it's going to feel problematic for you. Maybe reframing it and finding a third option. Nobody is suggesting NC and it doesn't seem necessary. It's more you being very clear in your mind about EXACTLY how much time and energy you can devote to your dad. (Coupla phone calls a week, a visit now and then etc) and then you being very boundaried with him when he tries for more control of you. You don't have to evict him from your life but he is living rent free in your head and that's the real problem. Your wife is a very patient woman but if she gives up one day because you can't emotionally separate from your father you will really regret it. Don't let an old man with a personality disorder ruin your life.

[NarcKiddo]

I think this is a really good question from Leonor. I am going to think about it myself with regard to my own mother.

Like you, I would have serious difficulty going NC. That would go contrary to my sense of duty. I realise the sense of duty to her was installed by her, but I have to live with myself. The difference now, as opposed to when I was still fully enmeshed, is that I am now capable of going NC if she pushes me too far. Before, I think she could have done pretty much anything. But I still got something from the relationship, and back then it was that the few good times were really, really good. It was a major dopamine hit when she was actually nice and fun. But also she could play into my nurturing side and this is where I wonder if that may be something your dad is doing. You sound like a caring man. Maybe attending to your dad's supposed needs is giving you some emotional satisfaction? Are you proving to yourself that you are a nice guy? Does that go some way to helping you deal with the guilt of not really wanting to do these things? I could be totally wrong, of course -  I'm just throwing some ideas out there. It seems to me that if we can truly understand what we might be getting out of a basically unsatisfactory relationship we must be further along the road of working out how we could perhaps get what we need in a way that is not so damaging.

[hhaw]

 

Breaking enmeshed patterns has many moving parts, yup yup yup.