Hi new and tired

[Llie]

Hello,

I am new to this group and would like to tell my story. 3 years ago my husband and I got married. He is the youngest child and has 4 other siblings. All are married and living separate. My husband was living together with his Mother and I joined them when we got married as she is a single parent in her 60s.
In the first few weeks things were going okay she seemed very happy with me being her daughter in law but soon things started changing bit by bit she started scolding me, blaming me for tings I hadn't done. Calling me names.
She always said 'my son and I are one', 'I am the body, he is the soul', 'our bond is very special, no one can come in-between us'. Occasionally she also made sure to tell me that no other woman would ever come to steal her boy away and dump her aside after she has raised him as a single parent for 30years and 'given her life for him.' I have always been a quiet and respectful girl, who never answered her back even though her words would sometimes break me. She used to say things about my family that which was very hard for me to hear yet I stayed quiet. She also used to scold me calling me things like dog, dirt. On a few occasions she called my family as well to say the most horrible things about me. Even in front of her other kids she used to say these thing about me and they used to say to her that they don't see a fault in me and that she is wrong. She used to say things to my husband and me like 'Watch your happiness will become unhappiness' and 'watch God won't grant you children' and she told my husband several times to divorce me because I'd never be able to give him children. She never let my husband and I go anywhere together without causing a scene or picking a fight with him afterwards. In the beginning of marriage she always used to make clear to me that her son is very special to her that he is her soul her everything.She also used to say no woman can take him of her. When she saw us happy together she all of a sudden changed and both me and her son were portrayed as the worst people living on the earth. She started calling him names and telling him he is a bad son as well and that she gave up her life for him as she never remarried after having him and leaving his father and she worked very hard to give him lots of expensive things. So he is overwhelmed with this guilt. Eventually my husband and I moved out, yet out of guilt he kept going to sleep there every other night because she said to him what kind of man leaves his mother in old age that raised him her whole life for a woman that came in his life yesterday. I was patient with it all. Then I fell pregnant and we didn't tell her because of the scene she would cause. She found out about the pregnancy and kept forcing us to go to the divorce office really crying and being hysterical to her son that something would happen to her if he didn't relieve her from this stress.
He is always so worried for her health that he even went to the divorce office but never filed for a divorce. If she had pushed just a little bit harder I believe he would have, eventhough for him it would've just been to save her life. that's what she made him feel. I was pregnant at the time. Then he had a serious talk with her saying she would loose her son and grandchild if she doesn't stop. he made clear that if this goes on he would leave her and that he is not divorcing.
So after that what she did was after a while say I have changed I want you to move back with your wife and when the child is born move back. My husband, seeking/needing her approval of him his whole life was so happy to hear that and has since always asked me to move back. She is kind to him now and doesn't say anything when he mentions future plans whereas before she would've meddled in straight away. He is so so convinced that she has changed. We've had so many arguments about this he says to at least try and that her health is poorly and that even though he has other siblings he is the one who has a special bond with her and he wants to be the one to look after her till the day she dies. He is a very kind and loving husband we get on very well but have always had arguments about his mother. Especially as since we moved out he still kept going to sleep there because he was always worried about her health.I was patient and understanding about it. He has now said to me either move back or I don't see our future working out. We now have a 3month old daughter and he is willing to sacrifice our little family for the sake of his mum saying he wouldn't be able to live with himself knowing he abandoned her in old age. I keep explaining to him that its not abandoning, he can look after her I would never stop him but that he has to share the responsibility with the other 4 and that I would even help him in taking care of her but that I can't live in the same house as her. For me its very difficult to let go of the past as she treated me very badly and kicked me out her house herself then in pregnancy forcing us to divorce and manipulate her son by abusing her health condition. And now especially having a baby I don't want the baby to grow up in that environment. But my husband says she's changed. He now moved in with her because 'her health is poorly' and left me the choice to join or then end it. I keep telling him he is the one breaking up our little family by leaving me and the baby like that to go live with his mother. But he says no I am asking you to reunite our family but you're the one who is giving up and the one who would be the cause of a daughter growing up separated from her father. His mum keeps saying to him all I want now in old age is seeing my son and his children in front of my eyes, Im not interested in interfering anymore. What should I do I am so confused, he keeps saying im the one deciding for their future whereas I see it as you chose the day you decided to go back to live with your mother.

[bloomie]

Hi and welcome. What a heartbreaking culmination of several years of anguish at the hands of your H's mother and your H's unhealthy attachment to her. I am so sorry you are in this position. It is a no win and unfair position to put you in to ask you to move back into the home of a woman who has behaved in such a toxic manner to you and your H and gone to great lengths to divide you.

It seems like you have a wise head on your shoulders in knowing it is not workable or safe for you and your LO to move back into the home of someone so unstable and untrustworthy. It is a huge disappointment that your H cannot see the unrealistic expectation he is holding of you and how unhealthy his relationship and enmeshment is with his mother.

I am thankful you have reached out for support and help. Make good use of the info at the toolbox and personality disorder trait drop down menus above. The in law board is a place where you will get great insights from others like you, and myself, who are dealing with great pain at the hands of our in laws.

Do you have a support system in your family of origin and possibly a therapist to help you hold your boundary and stay with the goal of keeping yourself and your child safe as the most important thing you can do right now?

You cannot change how your H views his responsibilities and priorities and you cannot control his choices. But, you can take a long look at if this and decide if his choices work for you. Take it one day at a time and keep coming back. We are here for you!

Sending you wisdom and strength!

[Starboard Song]

Oh my!

Then he had a serious talk with her saying she would loose her son and grandchild if she doesn't stop. He made clear that if this goes on he would leave her and that he is not divorcing.

Your post was a roller coaster. So many points where I thought, "if this were the whole story I'd know how to respond!" And at the moment I quoted above I was so optimistic. I am so sorry it then went back down hill.

Let's talk about what normal behaviors are (check me with your friends): mothers ought never to say so explicitly things like 'my son and I are one', 'I am the body, he is the soul', 'our bond is very special, no one can come in-between us.' We none of us should ever sit quietly when something rude or untrue is said of us: I had to learn than during the crisis the caused estrangement between us and my in-laws, and I will never do it again. And, while it isn't wrong or immoral, it is odd to believe that one must live with one's parent in order to support and love that parent.

Us men are willing to compartmentalize a good deal more than women, it seems to me. That is, unless you hit us on one of our ego hot buttons, we more often take a Sticks-and-Stones, and Bygones-be-Bygones attitude. But you don't need armchair psychology to figure out or explain your husband's willingness to forgive and forget. You husband is a profoundly decent man who takes great pride in his role as caretaker to his mother. And when she says she's changed, he accepts that because it temporarily resolves this conflict.

We can't answer this one for you. But I agree with Bloomie that you seem to have a wise head on your shoulders. I encourage you to (1) be as positive and optimistic about his mother as possible, while (2) standing your ground against actually moving in with her, for so long as that is what your good judgement tells you is right. There are so many ways to maximize engagement and support without living with her.

Your husband will be looking for reasons: why not move in? And the past is not going to ring true for him. He'll say she's changed. Be thinking about forward-looking reasons to have a separate home. Also, it sounds like something on the order of 6 to 9 months has passed since she declared she'd changed. I'm curious whether she is quite well-behaved now, or merely better.

If this were only about whether to spend more-or-less time with her, I'd encourage your to make small steps towards more engagement, always maintaining great boundaries. This would slowly build your comfort, as it worked, and it would build a case of evidence for your husband, as it failed. But that sort of test-and-adjust path only works if you are OK with the destination, and it sounds like you are very confident that moving in is not an ok destination.

Good luck with this. I believe that maybe a family counselor is in order. But also consider this, since we are on a Personality Disorder forum, you may not be dealing with any personality disorder. You may just be dealing with a toxic or dysfunctional relationship: the one between your DH and his mom. However loving it seems, it does not seem well-adjusted.

[Llie]

I can't get my head around my H leaving his child for his Mother. But he really doesn't see it that way. He sees it as 'I Have to be living with my Mom, there is no other option for me, and you are the one not joining me so you are the one keeping my child away from me'. Which also means he doesn't feel guilty at all for just packing his bags and leaving like that. That does not make sense to me. I would die of shame


There is definitely a cultural factor of the youngest son staying in the parental home but I've never heard of a man leaving his wife and child over it. I can't understand that

[Starboard Song]

Whether it is a therapist or spiritual advisor, I definitely think you are going to need another set of eyes on this.

[Llie]

Oh my!

Then he had a serious talk with her saying she would loose her son and grandchild if she doesn't stop. He made clear that if this goes on he would leave her and that he is not divorcing.

Your post was a roller coaster. So many points where I thought, "if this were the whole story I'd know how to respond!" And at the moment I quoted above I was so optimistic. I am so sorry it then went back down hill.

Yes, he did say that to her, but a week or 2 later she said 'I have changed now, I just want you all to move back, I have changed, I realize you're not going to divorce, and I accept that, I won't interfere anymore, you live your life now. since my H heard that, all he wants now is to move back. You asked if there are any visible changes; Yes, apparently she is much calmer now and doesn't argue with him anymore.
The reason why I believe she hasn't changed is because when she said she had changed (I was about 12w pregnant), never did she ever call me to ask how I'm doing, or to apologize and tell me she wants to move back, quite the contrary she has still blocked my number. Also when I was 6months pregnant, H&I wanted to go on a vacation together as we were living apart and needed the break and together time. He just told her He is going on a holiday and told her when and what time his flight was. She then sent her brother to the airport at 5.30 am to spy on my H to see who he is going with and to inform her. My H spotted his uncle and knew what was going on and confronted her. She made up an excuse that the uncle was there to drop off a friend. This was all AFTER she said 'I've changed'

Let's talk about what normal behaviors are (check me with your friends): mothers ought never to say so explicitly things like 'my son and I are one', 'I am the body, he is the soul', 'our bond is very special, no one can come in-between us.' We none of us should ever sit quietly when something rude or untrue is said of us: I had to learn than during the crisis the caused estrangement between us and my in-laws, and I will never do it again. And, while it isn't wrong or immoral, it is odd to believe that one must live with one's parent in order to support and love that parent.

Us men are willing to compartmentalize a good deal more than women, it seems to me. That is, unless you hit us on one of our ego hot buttons, we more often take a Sticks-and-Stones, and Bygones-be-Bygones attitude. But you don't need armchair psychology to figure out or explain your husband's willingness to forgive and forget. You husband is a profoundly decent man who takes great pride in his role as caretaker to his mother. And when she says she's changed, he accepts that because it temporarily resolves this conflict.

We went to visit his sisters and the Mother wasn't invited, she rang my H because she hd had an argument with her other son and I could hear her shouting over the phone. Which is another reason why I believe she hasn't changed

We can't answer this one for you. But I agree with Bloomie that you seem to have a wise head on your shoulders. I encourage you to (1) be as positive and optimistic about his mother as possible, while (2) standing your ground against actually moving in with her, for so long as that is what your good judgement tells you is right. There are so many ways to maximize engagement and support without living with her.

I've suggested this to my H many a times. I've had NC with his Mother and family the past year and whole pregnancy, so I said to him when the baby is born, and they come to see the baby, we can start visiting each other again but slowly, 1 step at a time and then take things from there. When I was in hospital she sent food for me which was nice. but then we came home and after the lockdown I asked my H why they didn't come to see the baby and he said no I find it better if we take the baby to them, the first time we will go and then after they will come and we can come and go. I was very hurt that none of his family came to see the baby or me even though they were very happy with the new arrival. So we went the first time. And then a week after he said shall we take the baby to see my Mom its been a week. And the week after he suggested shall we go to my sisters, they haven't seen the baby for 2 weeks. I was very hurt, because that wasn't the deal, they never came but I still went. When I go over they are friendly to me but I feel like I always have to make the effort. My H now believes I wouldn't look after his Mom because I was already saying we don't need to go every week.

Your husband will be looking for reasons: why not move in? And the past is not going to ring true for him. He'll say she's changed. Be thinking about forward-looking reasons to have a separate home. Also, it sounds like something on the order of 6 to 9 months has passed since she declared she'd changed. I'm curious whether she is quite well-behaved now, or merely better.

If this were only about whether to spend more-or-less time with her, I'd encourage your to make small steps towards more engagement, always maintaining great boundaries. This would slowly build your comfort, as it worked, and it would build a case of evidence for your husband, as it failed. But that sort of test-and-adjust path only works if you are OK with the destination, and it sounds like you are very confident that moving in is not an ok destination.

Those small steps are what I suggested to my H, but because the first visits were okay, no drama, he wanted to move asap. And I said small steps at a time but because it didn't go fast enough for him he said 1 day of living separate Is 1 day too many. So he decided to put the pressure up a bit by packing up and leaving us and saying if I don't come he will divorce. Also he says I've changed a lot because I used to stay quiet and now whenever he mentions moving, I argue and raise my voice because whenever he asks me to move back to me it feels like he is rubbing salt in an yet open wound (the whole forcing us to divorce thing wasn't even that long ago) 

Good luck with this. I believe that maybe a family counselor is in order. But also consider this, since we are on a Personality Disorder forum, you may not be dealing with any personality disorder. You may just be dealing with a toxic or dysfunctional relationship: the one between your DH and his mom. However loving it seems, it does not seem well-adjusted.

I do believe it is a PD because of the extremeness of her actions and reactions. Her extreme reactions are not just with my H and I, anyone she feels has wronged her gets it

[tragedy or hope]

They are both missing out on your babies life. Sad for them. She has a mother who loves her and understands what a family is... that is important to her well-being.

I am older than his mother and I have sons. I could not wait to let them go and find a woman who they loved and loved them... because my job was over. (for the most part... I will always be their mom).

Guilt is a terrible weight to put on anyone, especially children of any age. Many families thrive on guilting. This seems to be the case. 60 is not old. Many 60 yr olds are in their prime, living their own lives, not the lives of their children.

Take care of yourself and your new baby first. I mean first. Adults can care for themselves. You must decide who is important here and why.

You will need to make decisions now for your babies welfare too. Consider it carefully as life has many trials. Marriage issues can deplete what you have to give to your baby. It seems she is already being deprived of her father with him not being in the home.

I pray for wisdom for you, your well being and answers when the time is right.
Welcome. Please keep coming back.

[PeanutButter]

Larlie, the thing is even if you were not dealing with an (undiagnosed personality disordered) updMIL but just a toxic MIL she still is very unlikely to change. What makes someone toxic is that the abusive behavior is repeated and there isnt ever a resolution. "True toxicity typically doesn't change or improve easily. At least, not without professional support." from https://www.healthline.com/health/toxic-family

The extreme enmeshment you describe between your husband and MIL would not be happening without some kind of extreme toxicity and or disorders at play. IMO A healthy family does not do these type of behaviors. IME that is why you cannot understand it at all.

I do ime and imo hope you will get a professional involved to help you gain perspective and confidence in what moving forward in a healthy way looks like.

I was finally emotionally validated for the first time in my life when I went to therapy over my failing marriage.

My unpdxH stopped coming home after we brought our son (first child) home from the hospital.

He would go to MIL's house after work and stay there almost all night. He claimed it was because he wanted to eat dinner there, would watch tv after dinner, (she had cable tv and we didnt) and accidentally fall asleep on the couch.

[Llie]

They are both missing out on your babies life. Sad for them. She has a mother who loves her and understands what a family is... that is important to her well-being.

I am older than his mother and I have sons. I could not wait to let them go and find a woman who they loved and loved them... because my job was over. (for the most part... I will always be their mom).

Guilt is a terrible weight to put on anyone, especially children of any age. Many families thrive on guilting. This seems to be the case. 60 is not old. Many 60 yr olds are in their prime, living their own lives, not the lives of their children.

Take care of yourself and your new baby first. I mean first. Adults can care for themselves. You must decide who is important here and why.

You will need to make decisions now for your babies welfare too. Consider it carefully as life has many trials. Marriage issues can deplete what you have to give to your baby. It seems she is already being deprived of her father with him not being in the home.

I pray for wisdom for you, your well being and answers when the time is right.
Welcome. Please keep coming back.

thank you for this. I love your quotes in your signature part.

[Llie]

Peanutbutter,
:blink:How did you cope or manage with that? Was he enmeshed with his Mom as well, was that his true reason for not coming home?

[PeanutButter]

 I didnt cope very well unfortunately. I was a new first time M with no help. Eventually I had a mini breakdown because some days I couldnt even get a bath. I called him crying and yelling that I had had it with him being gone. He came home but laughed it off like all I had to do all along was tell him I needed him to help he just didnt know. But NOTHING changed.

By the time my son was a year old I had been diagnosed with post partem depression. I was basically a single mother even though I was legally married. That is when I started therapy. It helped so much.

The real reasons behind him practically moving in with his mom I will never know. But I have my suspicions and some of those were validated by my therapist.

He was enmeshed with his M (mil) and his GM. (mil's M).

We were next door neigbors with both his parents and grandparents. This was against my wishes and I had no say in where we put our home.

I was heavily pressured immediately to allow my MIL to care for my child.

  When H brought me and son home from the hospital he took us to MIL's house first. I was exhausted (I had given birth the day before) and just wanted to go home. H didnt care about that. He did care that MIL wanted to see and hold my baby so he was going to let her.

During that first visit; when I put my sleeping baby down in the bassinet (MIL had all of her own baby furniture for my baby) mil picked him up immediately waking him. She went into her bedroom with him shutting and LOCKING the door. I could hear him in there crying but couldnt get to him.

We had our first of many argument as soon as we left mil's house about how much I was dissappointing MIL. She had been anticipating caring for my baby. He was convinced that I had some kind of malfunction because I did not think it was normal or appropriate MIL wanted 'alone' time with my son the day we brought him home. He wanted me to let her have my baby whenever she wanted.

H and MIL just wouldnt accept that she would get visits with baby when I brought him but I was not going to let her take care of my son.

I believe that part of H's behavior was an alliance with his M but also part of it was punishment of me for not cooperating with 'giving' her our baby to take care of. When he did come home he berated and nagged me incessantly because his M's heart was broken because I wouldnt bring baby to her house every day or leave him there with her.

It was HORRIBLE. I did not ever recover from the wounds of rejection and betrayal by H. H and MIL held grudges for years that I wouldnt allow her to be my sons caregiver.

Eventually my sil (H's sister) had a baby her second child. Sil's home where she, her H, and their first child lived was behind MIL's house. SIl's new baby lived with MIL. This supposedly was to make up for 'what I had done to MIL'. Things settled down some after that.

But my marriage was a failure. My H did not put me first. My H did not put his S first. That was not acceptable to me. I lost all love for him. He was not the man I thought he was.

You are not alone. I hope that helps some to know.

[Llie]

Thank you for sharing your story Peanutbutter. I am very happy that your are slowly but surely healing. You deserve that for yourself and for your child.

I really want my marriage to work but am feeling more and more like my H's FOO comes before me and the baby, which is very difficult for me to accept. I also sometimes feel that (this is my hypothesis, don't know if it's true or not) that since we moved away from his M, he feels guilty for the time he is here at home with us so whenever any of his siblings call he is right there to help them. Or just visit them on a daily basis. Like he feels he has to divide his attention over everyone and he is always trying to please everyone. .which is too much for any person. It is a nice trait in a way, but leaves us feeling insignificant. I feel it even more now with the baby.

[PeanutButter]

Thank you for sharing your story Peanutbutter. I am very happy that your are slowly but surely healing. You deserve that for yourself and for your child.

I really want my marriage to work but am feeling more and more like my H's FOO comes before me and the baby, which is very difficult for me to accept. I also sometimes feel that (this is my hypothesis, don't know if it's true or not) that since we moved away from his M, he feels guilty for the time he is here at home with us so whenever any of his siblings call he is right there to help them. Or just visit them on a daily basis. Like he feels he has to divide his attention over everyone and he is always trying to please everyone. .which is too much for any person. It is a nice trait in a way, but leaves us feeling insignificant. I feel it even more now with the baby.

My xH is unpd. He had abusive behaviors in addition to the enmeshment! I didnt mean to leave that out but I did.

I think this may be much different than your H whos issue is the enmeshment and maybe people pleasing to an unhealthy extent but otherwise is not abusive.

Although neglect is a form of abuse imo. Abandonment is abusive too ime.

Either way you have a right to be first priority in his life!

Maybe google some article on 'my husband is enmeshed with his mother" or 'my husband chooses his family over me'. IME the more we understand what we are dealing with the better we can cope.

Heres a sample of what I found helpful. https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/emotional-incest

I also watch Jerry Wise videos. https://youtu.be/egMOktVUBDk

[Llie]

No he is not abusive. Other than these arguments about his Mother and family and his 'I am the man, the wife should listen to/follow the man as he is the head of the household' we get on quite well. we've always tried our best to keep the other happy and help each other out where possible. but these issues are major ones

[Starboard Song]

Larlie,

You are in a very tough place, and I am so sorry you are there with a new child.

Your husband believes that living with his mom is the ordinary middle. He thinks even weekly visits are plainly breaking the needle on the cold end of the dial. He hears you describe what works for you, and he either genuinely or rhetorically defines that as radical, and suggestive of a hidden agenda.

If my wife says she doesn't want lasagna this Friday, and I say "you never want to eat any Italian food ever again," something has gone wrong. If she clarifies that she'd be more than happy to have pasta some time next week, and I persist in my belief that she now has only disdain for pasta, something is deeply awry.

People who struggle to make toxic relationships, or relationships with PD folks work, sometimes engage in the most amazing gymnastics. When we merely disagreed with my MIL on a truly not-big deal, my FIL said he was sorry that we cared nothing at all about her feelings, and regretted that we were "trying" to destroy her. That abstracting, labeling, and demonizing of us was -- I believe -- emotional blackmail. I don't know if such behavior is intentional or not.

You've asked for help understanding your husband's point of view. The best I can do is to point out that he is under a great deal of stress. People under stress find coping mechanisms, and they are sometimes unhealthy. If you think about it, some of the tactics we see here by PD people are so consistent and precise you'd think they all went to university to get a degree in it, or at least a union meeting for special training. But no: they just all stumble into the same tactics in response to -- I guess -- the same stresses.

Whatever history of mistreatment, emotional blackmail, or abuse got us here, there are facts you can hold onto.

Your husband is mistaken when he falsley characterizes your words, and persists over your denials. It is not true that you will not care for her, and he ought not deny your true statements. I doubt it helps to plumb the depths of whether he is purposely mischaracterizing your position: it suffices to say he is plainly wrong.

Nobody owns this relationship. Unless you guys entered this marriage within an explicit agreement that the man rules the house, I believe you two are co-equal partners in these decisions. We used to say that my wife was lead with her parents, and I with mine. We now believe that was such an error. Each person is a special expert in their own parents, and is therefore an invaluable resource of information and insights. But so what? Each person (we now see) should use their words, share those insights, and then you -- of course -- should make decisions as the co-equal partners you are.

Do look into Emotional Blackmail. It is a powerful force.

In talking with your husband, focus on I statements: statements about what you need, and what you believe. Avoid You statements: it rarely works to tell someone else what they think or believe.

I truly hope your husband can come to believe that you are the partner now that you were one year ago. That you share his values. That you are there for him in the end. If he can remember all that, I fervently hope he can find a compromise space that works for you both.