Out of the FOG

Like £2 for home delivery shopping "not paying that". How on earth is that not more cost effective than me driving 25 miles each way? Honestly....

Latest and greatest. Not sure if it was ever a thing in the USA but UK people will know. Teletext. Basically, a dead slow interactive text thing via your TV. You can get news, weather, sports results etc.
Of course, people just use the internet now so its closing down early next year.

Of course, Dad uses it all the time. Hes been moaning for week. Basically every time I speak to him its moan, moan what am I going to do? Can you phone them? (what?)

He has internet (doesnt use it) because it was cheaper as a package for his phone. So I looked into it. His TV is really old - not even HD which he could do with. So I thought, OK lets get a smart TV, HD, and he can get sports results etc on there. Found a decent not too flashy one - £300. (Bear in mind hes for £40K in the bank).

So I tell him, its as if I told him his house was being repossessed. Spend money? So thats it he'll struggle on without it rather than spend ANY money.
Point is don't nag me CONSTANTLY for weeks then decide its not happening because you're too tight.

I have NEVER met anyone as cheap as my Dad. Honestly. I remember the TV prog "Extreme Cheapskates" (its a US TV series. My Dad could be on there.

I think you're looking for the logic in this like he's a normal person. He's not a normal person, he is functioning in PD world.

Normal people indeed would find 2 quid a bargain for delivery, especially since their son would probably spend that on petrol for the round trip, not to mention all the time and fuss.

In PD land, the time and fuss and being put out is the jackpot. Of course your father has no interest in delivery.

Normal people may groan a bit when a technology they still use goes obsolete, but they make a decision on whther they want to upgrade or not and let it go.

In PD land, this is a perfect opportunity to do all the fun stuff - drive you crazy, get you to do research and other fuss, maybe get you to BUY a fancy new item, certainly gives license to complain on and on. He really likes all that. Jackpot.

You're still engaging with him, though. Stop thinking he will see why delivery is an onvious choice, because in PD land, it is different. Don't JADE with him - "Dad, I'll arrange delivery." "But 2 quid!!!" "Won't be able to drive out so delivery it is." "But but but." "Dunno what to tell ya, delivery is all I can do." "But but but" "Dad, I gotta go. Talk to you later."

But you're still arguing with him on the logic. Give up on tbat.

TV, same thing. It was lovely of you to do the research. He chose to do without. When he moans, shrug. "Oh well. Nope, can't do a thing about it other than the new TV I found. Well, you vertainly can call if you like. No, I've already looked into it, so it's up to you. Dad, I gotta go. Talk to you later." No talk about what he has in his bank account.

Quote from: NumbLotus on January 05, 2020, 09:30:19 AM
I think you're looking for the logic in this like he's a normal person. He's not a normal person, he is functioning in PD world.

Normal people indeed would find 2 quid a bargain for delivery, especially since their son would probably spend that on petrol for the round trip, not to mention all the time and fuss.

In PD land, the time and fuss and being put out is the jackpot. Of course your father has no interest in delivery.

Normal people may groan a bit when a technology they still use goes obsolete, but they make a decision on whther they want to upgrade or not and let it go.

In PD land, this is a perfect opportunity to do all the fun stuff - drive you crazy, get you to do research and other fuss, maybe get you to BUY a fancy new item, certainly gives license to complain on and on. He really likes all that. Jackpot.

You're still engaging with him, though. Stop thinking he will see why delivery is an onvious choice, because in PD land, it is different. Don't JADE with him - "Dad, I'll arrange delivery." "But 2 quid!!!" "Won't be able to drive out so delivery it is." "But but but." "Dunno what to tell ya, delivery is all I can do." "But but but" "Dad, I gotta go. Talk to you later."

But you're still arguing with him on the logic. Give up on tbat.

TV, same thing. It was lovely of you to do the research. He chose to do without. When he moans, shrug. "Oh well. Nope, can't do a thing about it other than the new TV I found. Well, you vertainly can call if you like. No, I've already looked into it, so it's up to you. Dad, I gotta go. Talk to you later." No talk about what he has in his bank account.

Yes you're right of course. But honestly....

I get it about the delivery. Hes fighting tooth and nail against that. But I often tell him (never works) what good is money in the bank?

Quit fighting with him. Accept what is.  Your father just wants you running to him every weekend to take time away from your wife and kids.  He already admitted he doesn't like your wife.  He already has food delivery, meals on wheels.  You are the one making these decisions to spend this time away from your family for someone who I can only imagine wished you would give up your family and move next door to him to be as his command so you can make bets for him. 
Perhaps its time to take a long time out from this merry go round with him.  Do it while your FOC needs you, instead of them getting used to you not being there because of your father's unreasonable demands, is it really worth that? 

I agree with Hot Cocoa, and my best advice about this is to do *nothing.*  :yes:

Not a thing - the phrase, "No good deed goes unpunished" applies here. 

The smartest thing is for your dad to keep the TV he's familiar with, even if the Teletext service becomes obsolete.  :yes:

You don't want to throw constant calls about his new TV not working on top of all the calls you're going to get to look up this, that, or the other for him!   :aaauuugh:

Yeah!  I've lived this hell, and  want you to avoid it!   :stars:

Didi got a new remote for her TV that was *identical* to her old remote, except the buttons were bigger, yet she kept insisting she didn't know how to use it and I had to come over and show her.   :blink:

I took one look at it and said, "It's exactly the same as the one you had."  :roll:

She insisted it wasn't and didn't work - funny, but it worked just fine when I used it, so she said I'd have to come over and change channels FOR her.  :snort:

I told her that wasn't going to happen, and that was the last I heard of the remote not working, because Didi also had a portable DVD player she didn't know how to use.  The instructions were in too small a print, so I took them home, blew them up, brought them back and she *refused to even look at them,* saying I could figure it out FOR her and show her.   :doh:

Which I stupidly did - I mean, it was really easy to use and pretty intuitive, but Didi was being intentionally thick as a post, and insisted I'd have to come over and operate it FOR her when she wanted to watch Downton Abbey.  :aaauuugh: :thumbdown: :no:

That was one of the last times I was at the lair.  Any time she "hinted" at watching her DVD's, I was busy, couldn't get away, couldn't drop everything, and I'd see what I could do, but couldn't promise anything.   :ninja:

That left only me being Didi and Ray's personal Alexa.  They'd call and say, "I need you to look up..." - no hello, no how are things, nothing but an ORDER to look up something on the internet, which was easier for them than using the damned phone book.

Didi even claimed that she didn't know HOW to use one!  :wacko:

That's when the internet got broken.   :evil2:

Yeah - can't look up anything.  Internet is broken.  Yeah - some guy must have taken a hammer and bashed it to bits.  Sorry.  Can't help you.  Call 411 (information) instead.

But they wouldn't, because they didn't want to BOTHER it.  (It used to be a real person that you spoke to, but now it's an automated service, and I can't, for the life of me, figure out how you bother an automated service!)   :roll:

The funny thing is I'd sometimes be using the internet when they called, but they didn't know that.   :bigwink:

Didi and Ray weren't the sharpest tools in the shed, so I got away with it, but you might want to tell your father you're much too busy to look up anything, don't have time, and can't help him.

What is he supposed to DO!?   :dramaqueen: :violin:

You don't know - but you're sure he'll figure out something.   :ninja:

Those calls are going to be annoying enough - you don't need the added hassle of him wailing about his TV, while blaming you for *making* him give up the old one, when it worked just fine and he knew how to use it, so this is ALL YOUR FAULT and you'd BETTER get your butt over there to fix it, NOW!   :pissed:

These calls will probably be daily, or multiple times, daily, and you'll keep explaining the same things, over and over, but he won't listen and he won't care - he'll just expect you to drop everything and run over to his, for every little thing.   :spooked:

The kindest thing for yourself (and him, oddly enough), is to let him keep the old TV, and fend off calls about looking stuff up.   8-)

You'll thank yourself later!  :)

:hug:

Wow. I, for one, totally missed that the TV thing was a bullet dodged.

Quote from: p123 on January 05, 2020, 04:11:47 AM
Like £2 for home delivery shopping "not paying that". How on earth is that not more cost effective than me driving 25 miles each way? Honestly....

Latest and greatest. Not sure if it was ever a thing in the USA but UK people will know. Teletext. Basically, a dead slow interactive text thing via your TV. You can get news, weather, sports results etc.
Of course, people just use the internet now so its closing down early next year.

Of course, Dad uses it all the time. Hes been moaning for week. Basically every time I speak to him its moan, moan what am I going to do? Can you phone them? (what?)

He has internet (doesnt use it) because it was cheaper as a package for his phone. So I looked into it. His TV is really old - not even HD which he could do with. So I thought, OK lets get a smart TV, HD, and he can get sports results etc on there. Found a decent not too flashy one - £300. (Bear in mind hes for £40K in the bank).

So I tell him, its as if I told him his house was being repossessed. Spend money? So thats it he'll struggle on without it rather than spend ANY money.
Point is don't nag me CONSTANTLY for weeks then decide its not happening because you're too tight.

I have NEVER met anyone as cheap as my Dad. Honestly. I remember the TV prog "Extreme Cheapskates" (its a US TV series. My Dad could be on there.

OMG I've had the same convo with MY dad! He's devastated because teletext is stopping!
Moaned about it for weeks!
It's his morning routine and he goes back to it through the day!!
He would have the same reaction to spending money on a new TV.
Not sure what he's going to do and I really can't solve it for him!
He could use his mobile and connect to the internet, but he's scared of running up a massive bill. I've explained that he needn't - he just doesn't want to learn anything else! I do get that, but as you say, a new tv with computer access would solve it. They just don't think they should have to move with the times. But we all must.

PS. I've read through the other posts and yes, the TV thing can send you down the rabbit hole! SO I agree, just step back now.
Dad asked me over Christmas if I could sort out the photos on his phone. He wanted one of my mum to be on the lock screen.
I cried ignorance. Truth is, I know how to do it, but if I touch the damn thing I'm liable to get myself incriminated in the future and then forever!
The minute dad one day messes up and deletes an image, aha 😤  that will be my fault!

Quote from: nanotech on January 06, 2020, 07:47:21 PM

Quote from: p123 on January 05, 2020, 04:11:47 AM
Like £2 for home delivery shopping "not paying that". How on earth is that not more cost effective than me driving 25 miles each way? Honestly....

Latest and greatest. Not sure if it was ever a thing in the USA but UK people will know. Teletext. Basically, a dead slow interactive text thing via your TV. You can get news, weather, sports results etc.
Of course, people just use the internet now so its closing down early next year.

Of course, Dad uses it all the time. Hes been moaning for week. Basically every time I speak to him its moan, moan what am I going to do? Can you phone them? (what?)

He has internet (doesnt use it) because it was cheaper as a package for his phone. So I looked into it. His TV is really old - not even HD which he could do with. So I thought, OK lets get a smart TV, HD, and he can get sports results etc on there. Found a decent not too flashy one - £300. (Bear in mind hes for £40K in the bank).

So I tell him, its as if I told him his house was being repossessed. Spend money? So thats it he'll struggle on without it rather than spend ANY money.
Point is don't nag me CONSTANTLY for weeks then decide its not happening because you're too tight.

I have NEVER met anyone as cheap as my Dad. Honestly. I remember the TV prog "Extreme Cheapskates" (its a US TV series. My Dad could be on there.

OMG I've had the same convo with MY dad! He's devastated because teletext is stopping!
Moaned about it for weeks!
It's his morning routine and he goes back to it through the day!!
He would have the same reaction to spending money on a new TV.
Not sure what he's going to do and I really can't solve it for him!
He could use his mobile and connect to the internet, but he's scared of running up a massive bill. I've explained that he needn't - he just doesn't want to learn anything else! I do get that, but as you say, a new tv with computer access would solve it. They just don't think they should have to move with the times. But we all must.

PS. I've read through the other posts and yes, the TV thing can send you down the rabbit hole! SO I agree, just step back now.
Dad asked me over Christmas if I could sort out the photos on his phone. He wanted one of my mum to be on the lock screen.
I cried ignorance. Truth is, I know how to do it, but if I touch the damn thing I'm liable to get myself incriminated in the future and then forever!
The minute dad one day messes up and deletes an image, aha 😤  that will be my fault!

Yep. He wants me to phone them and complain that "millions" of people must be using teletext. I explained that "nah" I guess not which is why its stopping.

It went from every single conversation, "have you phoned them" and "can I get it another way?" and really doing my head in, to (once I mentioned spending money) "Oh its ok I'll get the sports news on the radio instead". Arrgghhhhh!

Honestly, anything as long as its free. This week hes trying to cancel his cleaner (again!). The place, honestly, is a health hazard. Never use a cup or use the toliet if you can help it (remember trainspotting the film). I have to drive past tesco and ask my little girl if she wants a wee BEFORE we get to grampys!

Anyway, his cleaner is his cousins daughters. Comes every 2 weeks. Its clean for two days then its minging again. I feel sorry for the poor woman. It eats Dad up that hes spending money because "its not dirty and its only me so it doesn't matter". Constantly wants to cancel.

So far I've said, you can't Dad, shes family, relies on the income so its not fair on her. He will cancel eventually though I know to save that £20.

That whole TV thing brings back memories.  My father would call me at work with the big crisis....the remote isn't working.  9 times out of 10 it had to be reprogrammed so I printed out the instructions with the 5 digit code he needed.  Nope it would be EASIER if  I left work and came and did it for him.  How is that easier?  Everything was about me doing it for him.

Quote from: p123 on January 07, 2020, 06:27:11 AM
Yep. He wants me to phone them and complain that "millions" of people must be using teletext. I explained that "nah" I guess not which is why its stopping.

It went from every single conversation, "have you phoned them" and "can I get it another way?"

I'm guessing your Dad likes the "convenience" and "ease-of-use" of Teletext, or maybe he likes reading white text on a black background. But as much as I think that almost everything about the 90s is good and should be brought back, I doubt if even 10,000 people are using it regularly (not including Subtitles).

Does he have a DAB radio? All sorts to keep him occupied on one of those.

Actually P123 your dad's a bit worse than mine on the whole teletext thing! Mine has accepted it but grudgingly. He hasn't asked me to ring up and complain about it!
I wish my dad would get a cleaner though. He is still ok to do a bit himself, or so he thinks. My sis helps him once a fortnight. I always see that ground-in dust though. He never opens windows. Filfthy bin and drips all down the kitchen cupboards and all over the fridge. I do the bin and cupboards when I go as I worry about hygiene. There's usually a rancid kitchen cloth which I stick in hot soapy water. I have to do that sneakily as he rations hot water. Younger sis got told off for sniffing a dank cloth then throwing it in the washing machine WITHOUT ASKING DAD.   :aaauuugh:  There was " nothing wrong with it" according to dad,  and even though he could have added more washing, unless the machine was stuffed to bursting he " wasn't putting a wash on because it's costly."

I have to do all this  surreptitious stuff when he's not looking, because he doesn't see any problem with the kitchen. He thinks it's beautifully clean. The bin OMG is usually growing penicillin on the lid.
I pretend I'm makin* a cuppa and get it done. 

Brother ( UNPD) has tried to rope me into the heavier cleaning, as has younger sis. They, on orders of dad, always seem to want me to move furniture and dust underneath , when the more viewable dust is there gathering, staring at me, and is surely first priority? I'm all for thorough cleaning, but first things first, keep the surfaces clean!

I've a back condition whereby I can't move things like beds and I have very bad arthritis in my knees. I've told younger sis that I don't even move stuff in my own house- hubby does that.
Dad needs a cleaner! I'm not the cleaner!

They all think that because I go to the gym there's nothing wrong with me. None of them go to the gym or an exercise class. They think it's for the super fit!
I've offered to teach dad to swim ( long story) but he won't do anything he can't be the best at. He knows that at 87, he can't be top. Top in class at school and very good at sport, just no opportunity to learn to swim.
They don't understand that the gym offers activities that are pitched  to my condition. They see my going as testimony to my fitness to CLEAN!

The gym keeps me flexible and stops me from seizing up completely!

Housework really, really  effs me up these days.
I don't have a cleaner. I can clean my house but I have to pace myself. No such thing as blitzing the house in one day any more!
I might have to have a cleaner in a few years. If dad is still alive there will be some sarky comments about it being a "waste of money," how "your mum never needed one, she did it all herself,"
( I get compared to mum like this regularly. Mum didn't have arthritis or stenosis of spine. Plus, it's just not very nice. It's telling me I'm either lazy or 🤥 lying.)

One thing is certain.I won't expect my children to do it!  :no_shake:

UNPD bro is very disappointed in me . He's pressured me for years to have dad live with us. Nope.
My back diagnosis in 2015  has kept him at bay recently. He can't argue with an MRI scan! He tries tho.
But  neither can , I and it's a defence against their  gaslighting of me that I'm really fine, and  there's nothing  really wrong with me!

My brother doesn't want dad to get a cleaner. He's petrified of outsiders who might steal from dad, or worse, be sweet to him and get him to change his will! It's all about the money!

I was out of work for a few months and my father assumed this meant I could come down every day and drive him around.  When I finally pointed out I had no money coming in and could not afford to put the gas in the car to drive the 20 miles to his place he got all offended.  Did I really expect him to pay me to drive him around???  Funny thing is, if one of my kids took him to the store he'd give them $10 for gas.

Yep its crazy with Dad how things go from URGENT URGENT URGENT to "I'll managed without" when you've got to spend money.....

I found out his TV remote was half working. He didn't tell me. It was knackered. So I got him a new one (sky remote) for a fiver off ebay.
So I said "Dad why didnt u tell me?". Dad - "oh I thought it would be expensive". ITs all about the money.

Made progress yesterday on myself...
Hes been moaning about his electic razor for weeks. Went to the shops with brothers wife. Dad being dad he bought the cheapest one there and its wasnt good. So hes moaning he wants to fix his old one.
I offered to get him a new one from amazon - £40.

So hes happy now hes half-fixed his old one. Not properly but hes over the moon that its half working.
I spoke on the phone and switched off to him.

If you want to go and buy the cheapest thing in future and it turns out to be rubbish - I DON'T CARE
If you want to penny pinch and make do with a half working razor - I DON'T CARE

I've basically left it at "Oh well let me know if you want me to order one".
So my involvement will be to switch off when he moans its broke again and then spend 2 mins ordering a new one. Other than that I DONT CARE.

I think your father enjoys fussing about things. My father was the same way.  It was almost like he was mad I fixed something because he couldn't fuss about it anymore.  I remember taking care of something for him and he absolutely refused to believe it was done....was I sure it was taken care of?  Maybe I should call again? OMG!  At that point I told him if he wanted to keep dealing with it he was free to do so but I was not about to redo the same work I did last week.

P123,

You seem to be going around in circles with your dad.

I suggest that you keep a spreadhseet of all the "expenses" he shunts back at you, instead of paying for it himself.  Also, add the time you devote to his foibles as well.

I think that once you see in a spreadhseet how much time and money is going into his bottomless pit of need, it will be much easier to detach from him.  Right now, its basically death by a thousand cuts, so you keep going because the time/expenditure of these instances is not significant.  But in the cummulative sense, they add up.

Quote from: M0009803 on January 10, 2020, 07:51:36 AM
P123,

You seem to be going around in circles with your dad.

I suggest that you keep a spreadhseet of all the "expenses" he shunts back at you, instead of paying for it himself.  Also, add the time you devote to his foibles as well.

I think that once you see in a spreadhseet how much time and money is going into his bottomless pit of need, it will be much easier to detach from him.  Right now, its basically death by a thousand cuts, so you keep going because the time/expenditure of these instances is not significant.  But in the cummulative sense, they add up.

Not so much expense as time to be honest. He will pay me for things....

But as I've said its URGENT got to be done now. So I look into it for him. Suddenly "it costs money?" then its "Oh I dont need it". Then like this, I get a 20 min conversation because hes so pleased with himself at saving £20. I just cannot be bothered.

My dad promised to take my son to an important golf tournament. He promised this in front of some people he wanted to impress( they were doctors). He positively beamed it round the room and then lapped up the thanks from my son.

A few weeks later he backed out because he found out that " pensioners had to pay full price!" He changed his mind in a heartbeat. Cue several moany phone calls to me, berating the organisers. Poor me, poor me!  It was daylight robbery, didn't I agree?
Not really dad.
At no point did he say sorry to my disappointed son, who was looking forward to the golf, but even more to spending time with his granddad on his own. I think it had happened about one time before in his life
After that my son told me he now understood where I was coming from about granddad. I'd only  been Out of the FOG about a year, and my kids were still in it.

If dad is paying, it's the set menu at the local carvery / pub or similar. Or it's wherever my UNPD bro has got coupons for!
Even then he will look at the bill and say he will pay for a percentage of it, and will 'take donations'. Two of my siblings are always flat broke, and UnPD bro is very mean, so
it's me and my hubby who take the strain at these times.
When we take him out just us though, of course we always pay. We are happy to, but he will always suggest an upmarket restaurant. All this is fine, he's an old man after all- it's just when it's all the time, you start to feel a bit used and abused!
However, we just don't do the family parties any more. I've listened to kris Godinez and she made me realise I didn't have to attend them!

P123 wrote:

But as I've said its URGENT got to be done now. So I look into it for him. Suddenly "it costs money?" then its "Oh I dont need it". Then like this, I get a 20 min conversation because hes so pleased with himself at saving £20. I just cannot be bothered.

You know the things your dad is moaning about will cost money, so there's your answer:  don't do any research and save your time!  :yes:

Medium Chill him instead with, "Gosh, that's a shame..." or, "Sorry to hear it..." - and change the subject.  :ninja:

If  he  asks why you don't seem to care, you might consider telling him the truth:  "Dad, you moan about things not working, I do research, tell you how much the item is to replace, and you shoot it down, saying it's too expensive, so I thought I'd just cut that part out and get right to you living with and making do with the broken item."   8-)

Can't hurt, can it?   ;D

You're not being mean, cruel, harsh or cold - you're just pointing out the obvious facts and getting to the end a lot faster and with FAR less frustration on your part.  :thumbup:

If he says something like, "Fine, I won't tell you when anything breaks..."   :dramaqueen:

Stick to, "Thank you.  I really appreciate that..." - and maybe end the call on something of a high note.  :)

Sometimes they give us all the material we need to work with - and we just have to realize it.

Didi was big on me researching holistic cures for her many ills, paying me back (most of the time), and not using the stuff I'd procured for her, for reasons.  :roll:

I think she just liked keeping me busy, thinking about her problems and didn't want any of them helped, managed, made more bearable or maybe even cured.   :stars:

The stuff would sit on the kitchen table, or maybe the floor by Her Waify Majesty's kitchen chair, and would stay there - or it might be moved to the hoarded-up floor of the Dollhouse Room and chucked in a pile.  :aaauuugh:

One day I just started kicking everything back to her doctor or pharmacist and never told her the truth, because she'd never accept ANY responsibility for herself. 

She gasped the first time I did it, then got ANGRY and started slamming the phone down, but by then, I DNGAF.   :ninja:

NO F's to G.  :thumbup:

It's a LOT easier to detach and set boundaries when you get to this point - a good boundary for you would be NO RESEARCH into things that will be rejected as expensive.

Another boundary might be you ARE having the groceries delivered, and that's that.

Another might be NO visits to the ER or hospital, if he starts acting out - and NO, you will NOT drive him home.

See what I mean - they become MUCH more clear and MUCH easier to implement - and enforce - when the time comes.

:hug:

I agree with WI it is easier not to care once you start not to respond to their requests. They look tempting because in the past we thought we could help. We've been brought up to believe that their happiness is our responsibility.
I nearly ended up taking my dad round various rest homes till he let slip  early in in the talks about it, that he wouldn't move anywhere unless it was ' exactly like home' .
He reiterated - it had to be EXACTLY like home!
That's impossible.   Ahh then I realised he was just after the chance of getting me to take him here there and everywhere  and then he would reject each one  with that smile he does, and tell me why in sordid detail over his many  treat-lunch after the visits!
All. Those. Rejections! How he would enjoy that!
So.....
I stopped offering!

Quote from: nanotech on January 12, 2020, 06:27:15 AM
I agree with WI it is easier not to care once you start not to respond to their requests. They look tempting because in the past we thought we could help. We've been brought up to believe that their happiness is our responsibility.
I nearly ended up taking my dad round various rest homes till he let slip  early in in the talks about it, that he wouldn't move anywhere unless it was ' exactly like home' .
He reiterated - it had to be EXACTLY like home!
That's impossible.   Ahh then I realised he was just after the chance of getting me to take him here there and everywhere  and then he would reject each one  with that smile he does, and tell me why in sordid detail over his many  treat-lunch after the visits!
All. Those. Rejections! How he would enjoy that!
So.....
I stopped offering!

My father did the same thing with hearing aids.  We begged him to get them for years. Finally a person in authority told him he needed them so he agreed.  I had to take off work three times to take him to various appointments. When it was time to get them he sad...maybe we will order them in the Fall.  Wait? What?  No you are getting them now!  He tries them once, says he doesn't like how HE sounds and gives them back.  At that point I realized he had no intentions of getting them, he just enjoyed the trips out to the doctor on my time.  I told him I would no longer be his ears for him and he was on his own.  Said he understood....but he really didn't believe me until the next time he tried to get me to make a phone call for him "Because I can't hear....".  Took me 20 minutes to get him to understand that I was no longer going to do that for him. If he can't be bothered to help himself why should I do it? 

And the other gem from him....."I thought you needed something to do".

Quote from: nanotech on January 11, 2020, 06:10:07 PM
My dad promised to take my son to an important golf tournament. He promised this in front of some people he wanted to impress( they were doctors). He positively beamed it round the room and then lapped up the thanks from my son.

A few weeks later he backed out because he found out that " pensioners had to pay full price!" He changed his mind in a heartbeat. Cue several moany phone calls to me, berating the organisers. Poor me, poor me!  It was daylight robbery, didn't I agree?
Not really dad.
At no point did he say sorry to my disappointed son, who was looking forward to the golf, but even more to spending time with his granddad on his own. I think it had happened about one time before in his life
After that my son told me he now understood where I was coming from about granddad. I'd only  been Out of the FOG about a year, and my kids were still in it.

If dad is paying, it's the set menu at the local carvery / pub or similar. Or it's wherever my UNPD bro has got coupons for!
Even then he will look at the bill and say he will pay for a percentage of it, and will 'take donations'. Two of my siblings are always flat broke, and UnPD bro is very mean, so
it's me and my hubby who take the strain at these times.
When we take him out just us though, of course we always pay. We are happy to, but he will always suggest an upmarket restaurant. All this is fine, he's an old man after all- it's just when it's all the time, you start to feel a bit used and abused!
However, we just don't do the family parties any more. I've listened to kris Godinez and she made me realise I didn't have to attend them!

Oh the phrase "daylight robbery". Does my head in? And "well thats a racket" (i.e scam).

"cup of tea £1.50 day light robbery." And pretty much EVERYTHING else. I remember taking my dad out once with daughter, it was xmas, santa was there in the country park. £2 it was. Dad went on for ages how "they should be locked up for charging that much".

Restaurants he never goes anywhere nice so at least I dont have to pay. One year we went away for two nights to watch cricket. Travelodge - which is ok. (He moans we dont get a twin room to "save money" - share with Dad I'd rather chew my own arm off!)

Anyway, no brek included but there was a wetherspoons. So we had 2x breakfast there, and 2x evening meal. I dont mind 'spoons but every day just because its cheap? Also he has ham, egg and chips £3 or something - cheapest thing on menu. Then moans that "I've got more money than sense whats wriong with the ham" when I go for the steak at £8".

Its SO annoying hes so tight....

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on January 12, 2020, 12:24:47 AM
P123 wrote:

But as I've said its URGENT got to be done now. So I look into it for him. Suddenly "it costs money?" then its "Oh I dont need it". Then like this, I get a 20 min conversation because hes so pleased with himself at saving £20. I just cannot be bothered.

You know the things your dad is moaning about will cost money, so there's your answer:  don't do any research and save your time!  :yes:

Medium Chill him instead with, "Gosh, that's a shame..." or, "Sorry to hear it..." - and change the subject.  :ninja:

If  he  asks why you don't seem to care, you might consider telling him the truth:  "Dad, you moan about things not working, I do research, tell you how much the item is to replace, and you shoot it down, saying it's too expensive, so I thought I'd just cut that part out and get right to you living with and making do with the broken item."   8-)

Can't hurt, can it?   ;D

You're not being mean, cruel, harsh or cold - you're just pointing out the obvious facts and getting to the end a lot faster and with FAR less frustration on your part.  :thumbup:

If he says something like, "Fine, I won't tell you when anything breaks..."   :dramaqueen:

Stick to, "Thank you.  I really appreciate that..." - and maybe end the call on something of a high note.  :)

Sometimes they give us all the material we need to work with - and we just have to realize it.

Didi was big on me researching holistic cures for her many ills, paying me back (most of the time), and not using the stuff I'd procured for her, for reasons.  :roll:

I think she just liked keeping me busy, thinking about her problems and didn't want any of them helped, managed, made more bearable or maybe even cured.   :stars:

The stuff would sit on the kitchen table, or maybe the floor by Her Waify Majesty's kitchen chair, and would stay there - or it might be moved to the hoarded-up floor of the Dollhouse Room and chucked in a pile.  :aaauuugh:

One day I just started kicking everything back to her doctor or pharmacist and never told her the truth, because she'd never accept ANY responsibility for herself. 

She gasped the first time I did it, then got ANGRY and started slamming the phone down, but by then, I DNGAF.   :ninja:

NO F's to G.  :thumbup:

It's a LOT easier to detach and set boundaries when you get to this point - a good boundary for you would be NO RESEARCH into things that will be rejected as expensive.

Another boundary might be you ARE having the groceries delivered, and that's that.

Another might be NO visits to the ER or hospital, if he starts acting out - and NO, you will NOT drive him home.

See what I mean - they become MUCH more clear and MUCH easier to implement - and enforce - when the time comes.

:hug:

Ha ha you're not wrong WI. The number of times hes asked me EVERY PHONE CALL then completely lost interest when its involved spending money,,,,,
I've started to say now "oh you can't get thay any more".

His satellite tv is another I lie about. One time I got him a discount (£20 for 6 months), he was over the moon. Of course, regular intervals he wants me to phone them to ask again. Umm no I'm not doing that all the time. So now I just say "yeh phoned them they said no discount since you recently had one".

Quote from: p123 on January 13, 2020, 06:50:49 AM
share with Dad I'd rather chew my own arm off!

;D

All of your stories remind me that I did too much for my mother, and it was all with the best of the effort I knew to put in. I'm not sure whether she was just too demanding or I was too incapable of doing what she wanted. I know that I'm not necessarily incapable, it just felt like it.

There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad.  :blush:
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

Quote from: nanotech on January 13, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad.  :blush:
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

OMG its all so familiar......

The "whats  the matter with you two the kids dont need this much for xmas" over the xmas dinner table was one of the reasons we stopped the xmas day visit.
Last year I also had the "what the matter with you? You don't need another holiday" when I told him we were off to Florida for 3 weeks (we'd been to spain for 5 days earlier on).

Oh and don't get me going about how I work. Jeez its constant. I work in IT sort of self employed. Contract work. No work no pay. Work somewhere for between 3 months and a few years but theres no job security. I love it this way. (Of course the pay is 2.5x to 3x times more as well!)

Dad just can;'t get his head around why I'd EVER take a day off. Or why I'd even do it this way and not get a "proper" job. He will not let it go. Of course this coming from the guy who worked in a factory for 40 years, hated it, never did what he wanted to do.

Quote from: p123 on January 14, 2020, 04:34:55 AM

Quote from: nanotech on January 13, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad.  :blush:
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

OMG its all so familiar......

The "whats  the matter with you two the kids dont need this much for xmas" over the xmas dinner table was one of the reasons we stopped the xmas day visit.
Last year I also had the "what the matter with you? You don't need another holiday" when I told him we were off to Florida for 3 weeks (we'd been to spain for 5 days earlier on).

Oh and don't get me going about how I work. Jeez its constant. I work in IT sort of self employed. Contract work. No work no pay. Work somewhere for between 3 months and a few years but theres no job security. I love it this way. (Of course the pay is 2.5x to 3x times more as well!)

Dad just can;'t get his head around why I'd EVER take a day off. Or why I'd even do it this way and not get a "proper" job. He will not let it go. Of course this coming from the guy who worked in a factory for 40 years, hated it, never did what he wanted to do.

Maybe he is resentful that you are actually enjoying your life.

Quote from: lkdrymom on January 16, 2020, 06:58:59 AM

Quote from: p123 on January 14, 2020, 04:34:55 AM

Quote from: nanotech on January 13, 2020, 07:33:40 PM
There was another time when he asked me to book him some theatre tickets. He fancied going to see ' Mamma Mia' and he knew it was on near me. I smiled and said OK-
then the whole talk descended into money. How much would it be? On and on and ON about the cost. Did I know exactly? I said I'd do some research.
I got off the phone and looked it up on the theatre website. Expensive, for a show I wasn't wanting to see.
I'd seen the film, plus I had the best memories of ABBA music and the original band, from the 70s when I was a teenager.

If ABBA original ever toured again, yes I'd be thrilled to buy tickets and go.
Something told me not to try and 'fix' this one. I never mentioned it again to dad. He never brought it up again either. I think he was hoping that I would love the idea of taking him to the theatre on my own ( I'd rather stick pins in my eyes🙀) and that I would offer to pay for the tickets!
I've had a lot of direct and indirect criticism over the years.  My parents always thought we spent too much on our children at Christmas and birthdays. Good shoes were ' a waste of money and a con job' and we were 'gullible'.
Holidays should be 'the cheapest possible'. Mum told me once ( about 20 years ago)  that she never enjoyed one holiday we ever went on. Ever. That made me feel sad.  :blush:
They would be surprised when we funded hobbies and college courses for our kids. Would that Music course be ' worth it'?  ' where does it all lead'?' " Yes, but what will she do with her qualification? What benefit will she get? How can money be made from that?"
In other words, there had to be a 'payback time' for us.
They didn't get that it made us happy to support our kids' dreams, and if they developed some useful  transferable skills from the process ( they all gained skills which enabled and enhanced their chosen careers), well then that was a wonderful bonus!

OMG its all so familiar......

The "whats  the matter with you two the kids dont need this much for xmas" over the xmas dinner table was one of the reasons we stopped the xmas day visit.
Last year I also had the "what the matter with you? You don't need another holiday" when I told him we were off to Florida for 3 weeks (we'd been to spain for 5 days earlier on).

Oh and don't get me going about how I work. Jeez its constant. I work in IT sort of self employed. Contract work. No work no pay. Work somewhere for between 3 months and a few years but theres no job security. I love it this way. (Of course the pay is 2.5x to 3x times more as well!)

Dad just can;'t get his head around why I'd EVER take a day off. Or why I'd even do it this way and not get a "proper" job. He will not let it go. Of course this coming from the guy who worked in a factory for 40 years, hated it, never did what he wanted to do.

Maybe he is resentful that you are actually enjoying your life.

Thats just it in the past I've offered to take him out, take him away and he just says no. Even if I take him he behaves badly....

Hes definitely jealous of the time I spend with my family and not with him though.

Some of the stuff your dad says makes me think it came straight from his own parents. "Get a steady job. Keep your head down. Make sure the boss is happy. Don't take any risks. Money belongs in the bank. Dreams? Don't be absurd. Fun, enjoyment? Complete waste. You'll end up dead in a gutter if you chase these foolish things."

Ine thing that makes me think this is his oarents' voice is that he looks to you for reassurance that some monetary decision was a good one. Like "I saved 20 quid, that was good, right?" Almost like he was hoping his own father would tell him he did good and was a good boy.

I also wonder if he can't enjoy things for the same reason. Imagine he was a boy and wanted, I dunno, a radio or model airplane or a spiffy pair of shoes. He asks his parents and they are APPALLED he would even ask. He clearly has high anxiety naturally so now if he thinks about a holiday or a new TV or whatever, bam, his parents' voices are in his head shaming him. He feels tightness and awfulness. How could he enjoy it? And he is bacfled that you could.

When he thinks about his $40k in the bank, he feels like a good boy. Maybe his mum and dad would be pleased, he hopes deep inside him. Maybe.

Quote from: NumbLotus on January 16, 2020, 08:59:33 AM
Some of the stuff your dad says makes me think it came straight from his own parents. "Get a steady job. Keep your head down. Make sure the boss is happy. Don't take any risks. Money belongs in the bank. Dreams? Don't be absurd. Fun, enjoyment? Complete waste. You'll end up dead in a gutter if you chase these foolish things."

Ine thing that makes me think this is his oarents' voice is that he looks to you for reassurance that some monetary decision was a good one. Like "I saved 20 quid, that was good, right?" Almost like he was hoping his own father would tell him he did good and was a good boy.

I also wonder if he can't enjoy things for the same reason. Imagine he was a boy and wanted, I dunno, a radio or model airplane or a spiffy pair of shoes. He asks his parents and they are APPALLED he would even ask. He clearly has high anxiety naturally so now if he thinks about a holiday or a new TV or whatever, bam, his parents' voices are in his head shaming him. He feels tightness and awfulness. How could he enjoy it? And he is bacfled that you could.

When he thinks about his $40k in the bank, he feels like a good boy. Maybe his mum and dad would be pleased, he hopes deep inside him. Maybe.

Definitely. His family were VERY poor. 2nd world war. Grandad worked down the coal mine in the welsh valleys.....
Dad has always been like this. "To be on the safe side" is his favourite phrase.

I think I'm the opposite lol.

Yes I thought he got a glow from having money in the bank then I realised he pretty much does not know. So I think its a glow from "not wasting it" now. Not helped that all his friends are like this - its shameful to waste money or even spend it.

Crazy, eh?

Yeah the values are generational. That generation (grandparents of those of us in our 40s) is the same here in the US - Great Depression then the war. So some of our parents were affeced by this upbringing by that generation.

The values are annoying to those of us who came later because while they were required for survival in the 30s and 40s, they were not useful afterwards. And in fact are maladaptive, in the sense that needs go unmet in the name if a frugality that is not currently needed (it will again some day though).

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

Quote from: NumbLotus on January 16, 2020, 10:36:37 AM
Yeah the values are generational. That generation (grandparents of those of us in our 40s) is the same here in the US - Great Depression then the war.

The values are annoying to those of us who came later because while they were required for survival in the 30s and 40s, they were not useful afterwards. And in fact are maladaptive, in the sense that needs go unmet in the name if a frugality that is not currently needed (it will again some day though).

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

Yes I can see..... :-)

Oh he certainly expects that everyone is like him thats for sure. He gets really nasty and cant understand how someone can be so stupid. Like you said, if it was just his opinion I could ignore.....

Quote from: NumbLotus on January 16, 2020, 10:36:37 AM

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

This is the key.  I've been questioning for months if the issues I'm having  with uPDM and enD are cultural or generational i stress of PD.   They, too, grew up very poor.   Some of their attitudes and beliefs might be, but  the issue is when they make their anxieties and values ours and will accept nothing else. 

Quote from: Sidney37 on January 16, 2020, 11:32:02 AM

Quote from: NumbLotus on January 16, 2020, 10:36:37 AM

But of course, the values aren't the real problem. Annoying but that's it. The PD problem is that he's making his problems (including his anxieties and his values) your problem, haranguing you and all about it, and placing the burden on you to figure out solutions that don't cost him anything, etc. It's not weird that he ASKS, it's weird that he DEMANDS and WON'T LET IT GO.

This is the key.  I've been questioning for months if the issues I'm having  with uPDM and enD are cultural or generational i stress of PD.   They, too, grew up very poor.   Some of their attitudes and beliefs might be, but  the issue is when they make their anxieties and values ours and will accept nothing else.

Yes Dad started off with "this is what I think and my opinion" to "you MUST DO THIS". Thats when the problems started.

Now he calls me irresponsible and immature because I book a holiday and take time off work at all! Last year he said one holiday (it was 4 days) is enough and I was immature and irresponsible taking time off work twice in a year!

He even asked if my boss minded if I took time off and I'd better not have upset them! (Im self employed and they're more like a client. Of course, they were made aware of my unavailability).

As someone said its the old working class thing "keep you head down, work hard, do what the boss says!"

Hes getting worse. Had an argument with him again last night.

He still moaning that teletext (on BBC in the uk) is ending and whats he going to do without it. I've already suggested new TV and he looked at me like I was mad. I told him then - "oh well if you're going to prefer keeping thousands in the bank then you'll have to do without".

Hes still going on. Asking me if theres another way. I've said now no way am I wasting my time trying to sort something out for him when, as soon as any mention of spending any money gets involved, he shuts it down.

Yet hes still going on about how hes going to miss this?

I don't get it. Is this what narcs want? Me to solve all his problems for him?

I've offered to help but it costs money. He doesn't want to spend money.

Its as if hes got a problem and I've got to find a way to fix it how he wants. We had an argument last week about this about how I wasn't wasting my time if he wasn't willing to spend money. Yeh hes on about it again this week! Nothing has changed OMG!!!!

Just tell him, if it comes up again. that you've already had a discussion with him  on teletext and you're not going to talk about it further. Just keep repeating that .

Quote from: nanotech on January 26, 2020, 08:36:23 PM
Just tell him, if it comes up again. that you've already had a discussion with him  on teletext and you're not going to talk about it further. Just keep repeating that .

Yeh did this the other week....

It doesn't make sense to me - having thousands in the bank and it just sitting there and doing without something you really like. I just don't understand why he'd do that. Hes got so much saved its NEVER going to run out. Its impossible So whys it there - "because I don't want to waste it".

Hes got a TV and it works fine - its just a bit old so can't get internet etc. I know what hes thinking - hes got a TV and its working. Buying a newer, better one when you've got something already is the ultimate shame of wasting money. He honestly could not cope with the stress of disposing of something that had such value.

I even said "look we'll sell the old one on ebay - we might get £50". That got him going more - "£50 I paid £200 for that its a good TV". Yes 15 years ago now you've got no chance....... He'll never change.

Perhaps I look at things too simply:-
1. Do I want it? YES
2. Can I afford it? (In Dad case, HELL YES)
But Dad is adding another layer:
3. Can I not spend any money if possible here? (YES in his head!)

This isn't about the money. He knows that this is a button that he can press that frustrates you.  He doesn't want to solve this so-called problem.  He wants to control your emotions.  He feels anxious at the thought of spending money.  He then involves you in a circular argument and frustrates you.  Which soothes him, makes him feel in control of something.  His payoff isn't in finding a solution, his payoff is in yanking your emotions around. 

I doubt he can verbalize this, but believe me he feels a thrill when he can find a way  to get you to feel HIS anxiety and transfer HIS chaos to you.  Logic isn't going to solve this as he doesn't want it solved, he just wants you upset and focusing your time and energy on him.

Try MC and just detach.  "I don't know, Dad.  You're smart, you'll figure this out."   That sentence should give him pause. But who knows with PD's, he might try another angle, think of a few responses and practice them. Look over WomanInterrupted's conversation non starters she has used with her parents for inspiration. 

Quote from: Outsiderchild on January 27, 2020, 03:59:31 AM
This isn't about the money. He knows that this is a button that he can press that frustrates you.  He doesn't want to solve this so-called problem.  He wants to control your emotions.  He feels anxious at the thought of spending money.  He then involves you in a circular argument and frustrates you.  Which soothes him, makes him feel in control of something.  His payoff isn't in finding a solution, his payoff is in yanking your emotions around. 

I doubt he can verbalize this, but believe me he feels a thrill when he can find a way  to get you to feel HIS anxiety and transfer HIS chaos to you.  Logic isn't going to solve this as he doesn't want it solved, he just wants you upset and focusing your time and energy on him.

Try MC and just detach.  "I don't know, Dad.  You're smart, you'll figure this out."   That sentence should give him pause. But who knows with PD's, he might try another angle, think of a few responses and practice them. Look over WomanInterrupted's conversation non starters she has used with her parents for inspiration.

Never thought of that..... He does seem to like to shovel problems over to me.
And EVERYTHINg is a problem....

Quote from: p123 on January 27, 2020, 05:20:17 AM

Quote from: Outsiderchild on January 27, 2020, 03:59:31 AM
This isn't about the money. He knows that this is a button that he can press that frustrates you.  He doesn't want to solve this so-called problem.  He wants to control your emotions.  He feels anxious at the thought of spending money.  He then involves you in a circular argument and frustrates you.  Which soothes him, makes him feel in control of something.  His payoff isn't in finding a solution, his payoff is in yanking your emotions around. 

I doubt he can verbalize this, but believe me he feels a thrill when he can find a way  to get you to feel HIS anxiety and transfer HIS chaos to you.  Logic isn't going to solve this as he doesn't want it solved, he just wants you upset and focusing your time and energy on him.

Try MC and just detach.  "I don't know, Dad.  You're smart, you'll figure this out."   That sentence should give him pause. But who knows with PD's, he might try another angle, think of a few responses and practice them. Look over WomanInterrupted's conversation non starters she has used with her parents for inspiration.

Never thought of that..... He does seem to like to shovel problems over to me.
And EVERYTHINg is a problem....

I think you are on to something here.   One line i used on my Dad that seemed to work was "I don't know what to tell you ". I used this when I just didn't have the time to deal with yet another silly problem he has made up.

One line i used on my Dad that seemed to work was "I don't know what to tell you ". I used this when I just didn't have the time to deal with yet another silly problem he has made up.

What happened the first time you used it?   What happened after you used it several times?

Quote from: Outsiderchild on January 27, 2020, 07:31:15 AM
One line i used on my Dad that seemed to work was "I don't know what to tell you ". I used this when I just didn't have the time to deal with yet another silly problem he has made up.

What happened the first time you used it?   What happened after you used it several times?

He would then drop the subject.  They enjoy a good game of 'shoot down every suggestion'.  Don't participate.  If you make a bunch of suggestions they will have every excuse in the book something won't work (usually because it requires them to do something).  Play dumb...have no ideas on how to solve the latest crisis. Takes the wind right out of their sails.

Somebody here used to call the game of "Shoot Down Every Suggestion" the game of "Yes, But..." - and even told her mother she didn't have time to play a round of it!   :rofl:

I used to use, "Well, I don't know what to tell you.  I don't know what you want me to say..." - then I'd wait a beat and add, "Your smart enough to figure out something on your own.  I have to go." - and end the call, if the phone didn't manage to get slammed down in my ear, first.

Those phrases are *awesome* because you're pushing everything right back to their side of the table, where it belongs.  You can even do that will your dad's unreasonable demands to come NOW, it's AN EMERGENCY, he has a GAS LEAK COME NOW!  :dramaqueen: :bawl:

You:  "I've spoken to the gas man and he  says the leak is minor.  He'll be there X day.  And I don't know what to tell you other than that.  I don't know what you want me to say..."   :ninja:

He'll probably say that he wants you to come NOW, to which I'd camly reply, "That's not going to happen, and you're smart enough to figure out something on your own, so I'll leave you to it.  Goodbye." - then hang up and block his number until you know the gas man has come and gone.  :ninja:

I'd use variants of the same thing every time Didi or Ray had a "problem" and leave it with them.  I never took the bait - or the anxiety - and left the problems where I found them, without doing a thing.

I think you'll  surprise yourself in how quickly it becomes a natural reaction.

:hug:

I have now with this. Every time he mentions it I say "well I told you new TV was the only option". Scares him then that someone is suggesting he spends money!

I was thinking about getting him and amazon fire tv stick. You can get the app on there apparently. But then I thought, hang on I'll end up wasting my time trying to work it out, then he'll moan and say no when I tell him its £40 to buy.

I do have a spare one (well not used at the moment) but, do you know what I don't want to give it to him? Kids might use it one day. He can well afford his own and I just think - hell no you're not have my stuff for me because you're such a cheapskate.

This isn't your problem.  He's a grown man with all his cognitive faculties.
As soon as you take it on board,  he gets a  huge kick out of your efforts to solve it.
He more or less knows you can't.
Do you see what he does? He puts you in a maze with no exit, then chuckles at your attempts to get out.
I'm sorry if this is blunt. I'm in a blunt mood!
It's just so clear to me that he's working you. Or trying to.
I've had the same bemoaning from my dad  about the demise of the red button.
Hmmm just thinking- I bet if I worked in IT and fixed things for people on a regular basis, he might be the same with me.
Then again, he might not.
I'm female you see, and he sees us as less competent in all things except babies, housework and cooking. So his sexism has possibly worked in my favour this time and got me off the hook. 
He certainly accepted it when I've told him I wasn't driving him here and there to his unnecessary appointments. He put it down to my being female and easily flustered by driving in different towns and cities! Oh well, whatever works!
It's harder for guys to pull this off!!

Quote from: nanotech on January 28, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
This isn't your problem.  He's a grown man with all his cognitive faculties.
As soon as you take it on board,  he gets a  huge kick out of your efforts to solve it.
He more or less knows you can't.
Do you see what he does? He puts you in a maze with no exit, then chuckles at your attempts to get out.
I'm sorry if this is blunt. I'm in a blunt mood!
It's just so clear to me that he's working you. Or trying to.
I've had the same bemoaning from my dad  about the demise of the red button.
Hmmm just thinking- I bet if I worked in IT and fixed things for people on a regular basis, he might be the same with me.
Then again, he might not.
I'm female you see, and he sees us as less competent in all things except babies, housework and cooking. So his sexism has possibly worked in my favour this time and got me off the hook. 
He certainly accepted it when I've told him I wasn't driving him here and there to his unnecessary appointments. He put it down to my being female and easily flustered by driving in different towns and cities! Oh well, whatever works!
It's harder for guys to pull this off!!

Oh yeh. See what you mean... He does deffo get a warm feeling when he gets people to do stuff for him. Thing is I don't mind helping but when I spent hours trying to sort and he doesn't want to spend £10-£20....

Know what you mean about the sexism thing. Dad retired when he was 58. Moved into his own flat (just got divorced). Refused to get a washing machine.
Didnt know how to use it (yeh right) and he admitted it was "womens work".

I tried to talk him around. His older sister steamed in and offered - that was it. She did his washing for years. Dragged his stuff on the bus etc. In the end she had enough (dad worked his magic) and stopped. I thought it was funny- you're fault for offering years ago.

Since then hes got various girlfriend (and now his wife) to do his laundry. Occasionally, he asked me to "ask my wife". Stupidly, I did it a few times and he was horrified that I'd actually chucked it in the washing machine not my wife! He still kept asking me to "ask my wife".

In the end I said no more. Either buy a washing machine (I would sort it all out) or pay a laundrette (I found one for him). He did neither. Kept relying on brothers partner. Carry on. So when brothers away he washes his clothes by hand in the kitchen sink. I know! Not the cleanest is my Dad at the best of times...

He STILL asks me "do me a favour and ask your wife" NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Speechless about the washing!
His sister made a rod for her own back. I bet she got no thanks for it.
Enabling behaviour works out as unhelpful for everyone. It sets a pattern of expectation.
My dad does own his washing and he makes sure he does it just like mum did it. UNPD sis helps a little with ironing.  (I think it helped that mum taught him some domestic things before she passed away. He even bakes mum's cake recipe).
Mum didn't want her daughters to care for dad domestically ( her BPD rivalry issues) so in a way her disorder worked a little in our favour at least on this (always a silver lining).

Quote from: nanotech on January 29, 2020, 07:38:31 AM
Speechless about the washing!
His sister made a rod for her own back. I bet she got no thanks for it.
Enabling behaviour works out as unhelpful for everyone. It sets a pattern of expectation.
My dad does own his washing and he makes sure he does it just like mum did it. UNPD sis helps a little with ironing.  (I think it helped that mum taught him some domestic things before she passed away. He even bakes mum's cake recipe).
Mum didn't want her daughters to care for dad domestically ( her BPD rivalry issues) so in a way her disorder worked a little in our favour at least on this (always a silver lining).

Yes his older sister used to mollycoddle. Once she offered the washing machine battle was lost....She got quite nasty with me "someone could  help him out" and if noone else would then she'd help her little brother. Bear in mind he was a grown ass 58 year old man at this point!

His sisters husband stopped driving. Dad let her carry bags of his laundry on the bus then she had to walk 1/2 mile for years. Shes 6 years older than Dad! In the end, pretty sure she couldnt cope. I did find it a little funny because she made the rod - I'm going to hell!

Oh and I remember he used to buy her a small box of Roses every xmas to say thanks - the ones that cost £2-£3......

😂 Thats my dad's sort of present as well!  He doesn't mind us spending more on him though.  :unsure:
I can't believe your dad thought it was ok for his sister to do all that.
My sister changes dad's sheets and I've done it a couple of times with her. I can't do it again, because the process, as ordered by dad, is very strange and very regimented. Sister accepts that for ease-she can't cope with standing up to him.
Instead she acts the whole weird process out for dad,
I can't.
It isn't just changing a bed. Two sheets, half tucked in half not. Has to be just so. Sheets have to face  a certain way with  longest hem big at the top and a particular amount folded over and partly tucked, just so.  :roll:
What the actual f bomb. (I've had three kids and got really fast at changing beds. I had to be fast as I had a lot of housework to do and when the kids were older I also worked full time). I used to do four beds in one morning, no problem.
There's really no need for all of the fussing that goes on over one bed.
Then after it all- it's NOT ALL CLEAN!
Last time it involved me being told to put a dirty duvet cover back on the duvet, because 'we don't need to change the top duvet very often and it doesn't happen yet' ( until dad asks her, in other words).
Yes, but he sits/ lies on it every day? He takes cuppas to bed and sometimes toast?
It wasn't all that  fresh. There's nothing nicer than all fresh linen.  I would have changed it but I wasn't allowed to!

Quote from: nanotech on January 29, 2020, 01:38:06 PM
😂 Thats my dad's sort of present as well!  He doesn't mind us spending more on him though.  :unsure:
I can't believe your dad thought it was ok for his sister to do all that.
My sister changes dad's sheets and I've done it a couple of times with her. I can't do it again, because the process, as ordered by dad, is very strange and very regimented. Sister accepts that for ease-she can't cope with standing up to him.
Instead she acts the whole weird process out for dad,
I can't.
It isn't just changing a bed. Two sheets, half tucked in half not. Has to be just so. Sheets have to face  a certain way with  longest hem big at the top and a particular amount folded over and partly tucked, just so.  :roll:
What the actual f bomb. (I've had three kids and got really fast at changing beds. I had to be fast as I had a lot of housework to do and when the kids were older I also worked full time). I used to do four beds in one morning, no problem.
There's really no need for all of the fussing that goes on over one bed.
Then after it all- it's NOT ALL CLEAN!
Last time it involved me being told to put a dirty duvet cover back on the duvet, because 'we don't need to change the top duvet very often and it doesn't happen yet' ( until dad asks her, in other words).
Yes, but he sits/ lies on it every day? He takes cuppas to bed and sometimes toast?
It wasn't all that  fresh. There's nothing nicer than all fresh linen.  I would have changed it but I wasn't allowed to!

Oh yes thats Dad too. Thats why he cancels the Carers all the time - dont do it right!

Dad will let anyone do anything. He has no concept of "taking the p*ss". A few months ago he got his cousin (3 years younger) to push him around town in his wheelchair. Up and down hills. Made his cousin ill because he struggled. Dad was not bothered AT ALL. Couldn't see why it was a problem "Well I asked him and he said he'd do it!"

I think I mention his electric shaver. EVERY TIME I speak to him I get an explanation how its not working, how he put it back together etc.

My response - BUY A NEW ONE !!! I will even order it off amazon and get it delivered to you- £25....

I've now given up and don;t even listen. This weekend he was telling me how hes going to fix it again because he doesn't really want to buy a new one. I just switched off and went to my happy place.

This is the man (and I know because I have online access) who has loose change shy of £40K ($50K) in his bank account. Honestly, you could not make it up how tightfisted he is. I am not interested. Spend it or don't spend but dont moan things are not working and you're not interested in spending a penny.

He may be trying to get you to buy him one!
My dad does things like this sometimes. He's tried it with theatre tickets and train tickets.

Not succeeded.  😉

 :yeahthat:

UNM whined for years about how she missed having a disposal. DH installed one for her one Christmas. Then the dishwasher died, and she was whining in the same exact way about it to DH for months rather than take ownership and just replace it. Still at it when we went NC.

Like your dad, she'd rather do without than spend the money. She also clearly hoped to get DH to do it again, which would have been massive supply. It also gave her something to complain and play the martyr about, which gives her a reason to get out of bed in the morning. So why buy a dishwasher and give up all the possibilities? Once the problem is solved the good times are over.

Quote from: nanotech on February 10, 2020, 08:36:11 PM
He may be trying to get you to buy him one!
My dad does things like this sometimes. He's tried it with theatre tickets and train tickets.

Not succeeded.  😉

Ha ha maybe. Honestly, £40K in the bank and hes agonising for weeks about spending flippin £25! Sick of hearing about it to be honest.... Buy one!

Oh jeez - how much time can you spend on one small applicance?

Hes been going on about it for weeks now. I just switch off and say "let me know and I'll get one off amazon for you". Yes I  wish I hadn't offered.

So he phones me on my way home from work.  The old one has finally packed up, can I order him a new one? When will it come?
So I said "right I'm off out tonight so I can't order until tomorrow so it'll be sometime friday".

"BUT BUT I need it tomorrow, I can't go out without shaving". Why? But there we go up to him (Im here in the office with 3 days stubble lol).
Ultimately, if shaving is SO IMPORTANT then surely you need to spend money to ensure you have a decent working shaver? Isn't that normal?

I did the phone call version of a shrug. And no I don't have time to order it tonight.

Then I get so how much? Can I ring him and check price is ok? NOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not spending hours back and fore "too expensive can't you get cheaper".

Then so what time will they deliver? Can you phone amazon and ask them? NOOOOOO!!!!!!

You are missing the point. There is no fun in you EASILY solving this problem by ordering off of Amazon.  He wanted you to 'make an effort" and get it to him right away.  What is the point if you don't have to go out of your way for this???

I would run to the store to get my father something and upon return he would ask if I also got 'other thing" .  When I say no, you didn't ask for "other thing" he would seriously expect me to run right back out an get it.  Like Hell I will.  That is when I learned that Amazon was my friend and would just order everything I could on line. He didn't like that he had to wait a day to get it. Everything with them is an emergency.

Great job on not capitulating to his demands for same day order or the absolutely lovely drama that would have unfolded if you had checked in with him on price first.

It is indeed hilarious and baffling. If I had an appliance that was noticably dying and I felt like I couldn't live two days without it, I would be proactive about replacing it.

PDs throw all responsibility off onto others. So he could have dealt with this but somehow he expected you to treat his lack of effort as an emergency.

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 13, 2020, 06:45:59 AM
You are missing the point. There is no fun in you EASILY solving this problem by ordering off of Amazon.  He wanted you to 'make an effort" and get it to him right away.  What is the point if you don't have to go out of your way for this???

I would run to the store to get my father something and upon return he would ask if I also got 'other thing" .  When I say no, you didn't ask for "other thing" he would seriously expect me to run right back out an get it.  Like Hell I will.  That is when I learned that Amazon was my friend and would just order everything I could on line. He didn't like that he had to wait a day to get it. Everything with them is an emergency.

Yeh I guess this is true. Why make it simple lol !

Quote from: NumbLotus on February 13, 2020, 08:16:35 AM
Great job on not capitulating to his demands for same day order or the absolutely lovely drama that would have unfolded if you had checked in with him on price first.

It is indeed hilarious and baffling. If I had an appliance that was noticably dying and I felt like I couldn't live two days without it, I would be proactive about replacing it.

PDs throw all responsibility off onto others. So he could have dealt with this but somehow he expected you to treat his lack of effort as an emergency.

Such drama for one item that cost £30 in the end. I worked out he could buy over a 1000 and still have plenty of savings left.......

I just don't have time for one small problem to turn into such a drama. I'll get a phone call about 10am guaranteed - "its not been delivered yet, where is it?". I think its phone off time friday. I've never known such a drama.

Appliance is playing up, is it expensive, if not buy a new one and wait.

The number of times hes done this. Its the end of the world, until he works out hes got to spend money, then "he'll manage". Then it packs up completely, and its an emergency.

Quote from: p123 on February 13, 2020, 04:15:41 AM
Oh jeez - how much time can you spend on one small applicance?

The same can be said of a small old man.

You deserve some peace and quiet. You deserve respect for your time. You deserve to feel that this man understands you and respects your interests. Because he doesn't and probably never will, the burden now shifts to you.

Our therapist gave us a rule to follow: my wife and I had to not talk about my in-laws except to make a decision. She noted that it was a terrible shame when we spent more minutes -- even hours -- a day thinking about such people than we did about the wonderful, kind people in our lives. While venting is sometimes essential, she believed we'd become a bit dependent on the trauma bonding we did over our anxiety. And she encouraged us to focus instead on the good things in life.

For what it is worth, you may be letting a weird old man drive you too much. You deserve better. In part, you may get that by detaching emotionally from his demands and requests: saying no and moving on.

Good luck.

Gets better. I'm going to start turning my phone off in work..... So hes phoned me

Did you order it? Yes arriving tomorrow.
Are you sure? Yes
Can you phone them to make sure they send it? Not really (this is amazon I'm sure they dont really cater for people checking on their orders that often)
But what if they forget?
What if it doesnt get sent?
Can you tell them I'll be in until 11 then popping out to get my paper? No Dad - tell you what I'll add instructions to leave on doorstep.

5 mins later...
Did you phone them? What did they say? I didn't phone them I added a note.
I was thinking - what if it get stolen? Dont worry it'll be fine.
Yes but I'll still have to pay what will I do then?
Can you phone them back? Tell them to hide it next to my bin? <sigh> I'll change the instructions.

Can't wait for friday.....

Hes obsessed with "checking things are ok". You may remember the xmas meal I took him out on. He stressed the whole time that they'd forgottnen his food, they'd done the bill wrong. He was very rude to the server. He basically wanted reassurance for everything and would not listen to me. (when I said No Dad it hasnt been ages so I expect theres no problem, and no Dad I've checked the bill its fine).

I could write a comedy sketch based on the amount of drama from one amazon order lol.

Friday can't get here soon enough.

I know what you are saying about the reassurance. It gets old and tiring after awhile.  My assistant at work will be 70 this year.  While that is not old I have seen her decline over the past 2 years and she is starting to "act old".  We have shared a tiny office for the past 5 years but this week the higher ups moved me to a much bigger office next door. But they decided to leave my assistant in our old office.  Instead of being happy having a space to herself she is beside herself thinking they are trying to get rid of her. I reassured her several times but she just wouldn't let it go.  And I just stopped answering her which set her off even more.  She is the type that will bulldoze to get what she wants and she doesn't realize how off putting that is to others. She insisted that I demand she get moved to the new office with me.....or we should just both stay in the old office.  I like to see people get ahead so this kind of pissed me off that her attitude was that if she wasn't getting this then neither should I.  I felt less bad about moving this week.

Quote from: lkdrymom on February 14, 2020, 06:51:58 AM
Friday can't get here soon enough.

I know what you are saying about the reassurance. It gets old and tiring after awhile.  My assistant at work will be 70 this year.  While that is not old I have seen her decline over the past 2 years and she is starting to "act old".  We have shared a tiny office for the past 5 years but this week the higher ups moved me to a much bigger office next door. But they decided to leave my assistant in our old office.  Instead of being happy having a space to herself she is beside herself thinking they are trying to get rid of her. I reassured her several times but she just wouldn't let it go.  And I just stopped answering her which set her off even more.  She is the type that will bulldoze to get what she wants and she doesn't realize how off putting that is to others. She insisted that I demand she get moved to the new office with me.....or we should just both stay in the old office.  I like to see people get ahead so this kind of pissed me off that her attitude was that if she wasn't getting this then neither should I.  I felt less bad about moving this week.

Ha ha good for you!

Dads like a bulldozer too. He wants all the info, he wants it al checked NOW. CHILL is not something Dad ever does.