I don't even know where to start...deposition looming

[Whiteheron]

...and his L just sent 2000+ pages of emails and photos for additional discovery. It's looking more and more like this deposition will be nothing but one giant fishing expedition. Fishing for any scrap of anything to use against me somehow. I'm trying to sort though this literal pile of crap and it looks like every single email exchange between the two of us for the duration of our 20 yr marriage was downloaded and sent in.

Throughout our marriage he used to keep me occupied with manufactured problems that I'd need to spend my time solving...so that I wasn't paying attention to what he was up to. This feels the same way - now I need to go through all of these pages (a lot are duplicate/triplicate, but still!). This is a colossal waste of my time.

This is supposed to be stuff he can use 'against' me to prove his case...not grocery lists and hey, run out to the hardware store and pick up xyz. I mean, who cares? It proves nothing. What is his angle?

I mean, there are photos I took of the kids included in this pile. Photos of other couples and their kids. Photos of his parents with the kids. Photos of all of us as a family. Doing family things (what no one sees is what happened before/after the photos were taken...). Wtf? How is any of this relevant? (aside from the fact that I need to find out how he got his hands on some of my photos...).

I know part of this is his black and white thinking - he has smiling photos of himself and the kids (most of which I took). Smiling photos means good times. This proves there was no abuse in the marriage because there were some good times, therefore there were no bad times. Therefore there was no abuse. Therefore I'm wrong. Therefore I need help because I'm lying about him. Therefore I'm the bad one. Because he has photos of the kids having a good time with him. And around and around we go.

Has anyone dealt with anything similar before? What did you do? How did it turn out?
Thanks in advance!

[blunk]

Whiteheron, I'm so sorry you're going through this. Unfortunately I don't have any relevant experience from which to offer advice, but I did want to offer some moral support.

[findjoy81]

First - as someone dealing with court with some sort of PD... don't try to figure out the logic behind it, there likely isn't any!  I mean, easier said than done...
So it may be a ploy to cost you more money (attorney has to go through all of those pages) or trying to intimidate you with all this "evidence"... but as far as going to court in front of a judge-no judge wants to sift through that.  No judge has the time or patience for that.  99% of that won't see the light of day in court.  It just a waste of time and energy. 

Best of luck though, court cases with a PD are not for the faint of heart (4 years on, still going through court stuff for me... ugh!)

[Whiteheron]

Thanks for your support blunk!

findjoy-My L won't be going through this pile. I will go through it and flag anything I think she needs to look at. She's actually very good about things like that - if there's something I can do that will save her time and me $$, she offers it up. stbx's L on the other hand...

My L did get back to me and said either stbx is trying to paper us to death, his L is trying to generate more fees, or stbx actually thinks this nonsense will help his case somehow.

The latter is why I'm trudging through all of this and trying to make some kind of sense of it all. If he believes he's got an angle and it's buried in all these pages, I want to try to find it just in case...so I can be prepared. I don't want to be blindsided under oath. I'm not good at thinking on my feet. If that means I have to read through 1000s of pages to prove to myself there's nothing there that I've forgotten about, then I'll do it.

The thing that gets me is, even if I've forgotten about something, it's still nothing. I'm a good person who's been doing her best to raise the kids and keep her H (now stbx) as level as possible (an impossible task, I might add). I was telling a friend, the most crazy/daring thing I do is go to the gym and take the tough classes. I'm boring. I'm plain. And I'm ok with that. He can search all he wants and dredge up old emails and texts. There's nothing there. Yet still I will search through it all...

[KFel024]

Dear Whiteheron,

Am sorry to hear about your situation and that definitely sounds like another game to me.  If you have strong evidence to support your claims/case, recommend having a close friend or trusted person to fly through that stuff looking only for some sort of smoking gun against you.  Otherwise, it seems like just another tactic to get you to remember the good times in order to soften your heart and your stance against your partner or to simply play more games.

What, if anything, do you have to be concerned about with respect to being blindsided under oath?

Best of luck and wishes to you and your children.

[Rose1]

Can you turn the tables and have him deposed?

[cant turn back]

Hi White Heron!
It's been a long time.
I'm so sorry to hear you're still in the thick of it.
My thoughts:
The judge is not going to be amused by this.  It's pathetic.  Meant to intimidate you and confuse/distract the Court.   "Don't look at the court-ordered psych eval recommendations, but look at all this other evidence".   If there is anything in there to 'use against you'' you are an honest person of integrity, a good mom, whatever slight your ex has hidden will surely not rise to any catastrophic result.  Also, you have the psych evals on your side and this ridiculous ploy will be seen in conjunction with that.  It just makes your ex look desperate, rather than stable and rational.
I know this doesn't make it easier.  I'm so sorry you are still dealing with it at this level.  Your kids must be exhausted of it as well.  You're in my thoughts 💪🏻

[hhaw]

White Heron:

Remember to keep your eye on the ball.  The PDs always engage in chaos manufacture to create confusion...standard PD tactics.  Don't panic or react.

Your job is to have your true evidence ready, and presented as required.  IME this means you're mostly engaged in disproving negatives, while informing the court with your evidence

When the PD presents his case, be ready to calmly and succinctly respond.  Don't let his crazy affect your calm, consistently reasonable child focused presentation.  The PD is trying to get a reaction out of you.  He wants you to panic.  He's looking for a hysterical response he can point to....or fir you to babble about his PD actions you can't prove.  And doing so would make you appear unhinged ime.

The good news is....she/he with the best records often prevails.  Center your case around your evidence.  Bring all your documents to court....leave the ones you feel you won't need in your attorney's trunk, just in case. 

Bat every ball back with economy of response.  Give very short, helpful in demeanor answers....give only the burger...no condiments or bun. 

The harsh light of the courtroom can be a terrible place for a PD lacking good arguments real evidence, IME.

[Whiteheron]

Thanks everyone!

Yes, I can have him deposed if I choose - my L made sure that the option existed - that if I were deposed, then we could depose him and the psych evaluator. That's the big one. My L tells me that when the psych evaluator is on the stand, she blows her evals out of the water. She writes them very softly, but when probed and questioned, she holds nothing back and shines a very harsh light on her findings. I'm assuming stbx's L knows this, if he's passed it on to stbx - who knows? They do spend a lot of their time trying to discredit her.

It's so funny. My documents total less than 30 pages. He's got a huge stack  - it's got to be over a foot tall! Sheer insanity. I was looking through the photos more closely - there are photos of expired condiments. A cluttered countertop. Proof that, what? Neither of us cleaned out the old salsa (that was his and I refused to touch) from the back of the fridge? Proof that by the end of the week, papers cluttered the countertop? Proof that I was a lousy housewife? Does he think the judge will admonish me for leaving an old jar of pickles in the back of the fridge?

Is this a game, or is he really that far gone? I honestly think he believes this matters. I failed to be a good little housewife because there was clutter on the countertop (some was clearly from me being in the middle of cooking), because there were old pickles in the fridge? So since I wasn't performing my "job" then it was ok for him to look elsewhere? 

One thing I do need to work on is not giving too many details. I've been conditioned to spill all (or else). It's a tough habit to break. As hhaw says, just the burger. No bun and no (expired) condiments. 

He has no evidence, because I haven't done anything. The worst thing I did was search for a T for DS without telling him beforehand. Because it was in DS's best interest that his dad not know. And stbx proved that by trying to compel DS's T to release her session notes.

[findjoy81]

LOL those pictures from the fridge - yes, the judge will never see those, and if by chance he does - I believe the judge will be more annoyed than anything else.

[openskyblue]

My exhusband did this during discovery. He copied over a thousand pages of records — some of it junk mail — and called it asset records. It's just a stalling tactic, and I'd recommend not paying much attention to it.

We deposed my ex, which was very interesting and educational. He absolutely seethed through the nearly 3 hour deposition. My lawyer was the target of his rage. We didn't get much in the way of asset information, but my lawyer finally understood the abuse I'd lived with for years.

[hhaw]

I think my stbx took pics like that.... but we didn't get to the point where we presented our cases, so I don't really know.  I DO know that some people DO care about these things..... and that we have to accept that.  We also need to remember that one or two people can be manipulated by the PD in court, but they can't fool everyone all the time.  They just haven't, IME.  There's always people who recognize what they're doing, and counter the manipulated ignorant people, IME.

All that pointing to papers, and condiments is designed to make you feel fearful, and react without thinking, IME.  I'm glad you know there's nothing REAL for him to point it, bc I think that's true, so don't let him worry you.

About the depositions..... my attorney said I was terrible in my deposition, but my stbx was suicidal with his answers.  Just very N, and taking the 5th, and all over the place avoiding answering, etc. 

If I had to do it over again, I'd take stock of my evidence, build the theory of my case AROUND that evidence, and not talk about any of the PD stuff I couldn't prove.   Honestly, it made me sound unhinged, and people were asking WHY stbx DID those things TO ME, bc of course anyone who'd do crazy stuff like that would have to be compelled to DO them, right?

Not many people have the experience to understand a PD's scorched earth policy, particularly when they're willing to dismantle their own lives, and eat their kids, IME.

So..... just the burger.  Talk about only what you can prove, bc people want facts to "square up".  Your case must make sense to everyone.  People understand cheating, or being vindictive or being abusive, but they don't get PD behavior, IME.  Find a way to explain what is happening, and make it as normal as you can by presenting facts, and viewing them with the same puzzlement as Judge and Jury will view them. 

You can't tell anyone what they MUST think, feel or do.  That's the kiss of death, IME.  You simply lay out the facts, and evidence, WITHOUT EXPECTATION, and allow the listener to come to their own conclusions.

If you're calm, speak about your stbx with compassion, and remain child focused you're more likely to be heard, and believed, IME.

Remember, this IS a mentally unbalanced person, and he's the father of your son.  Compassion is rewarded, and anger is punished, IME.

You'll likely do 100X better at depostion than your stbx.

IF you must schedule depositions, think about how your stbx might handle that.  It's about 5K per deposition, IME, and more if you have it videotaped.  IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME I'd have video taped at least one deposition.... I really regret not doing so for many reasons.

Since you have time, and if you believe stbx would come unhinged, check out the difference in cost, and consider whether it would be worth it to you.  Honestly, there are moments that appear, sometimes when we least expect them, that would be GOLDEN if only we had the ability to capture it on tape or video. 

[Penny Lane]

hhaw, it's funny how they have these patterns... DH's exW also plead the fifth in a deposition (not even over stuff that was illegal). She lied all over the place, even when it was clear that DH had documentation that contradicted her. (Things like, he never informed me of X when he actually did several times over email ... stupid lies that made me actually wonder if she's delusional). I think her deposition really helped him, too.

This!

If I had to do it over again, I'd take stock of my evidence, build the theory of my case AROUND that evidence, and not talk about any of the PD stuff I couldn't prove.   Honestly, it made me sound unhinged, and people were asking WHY stbx DID those things TO ME, bc of course anyone who'd do crazy stuff like that would have to be compelled to DO them, right?

It's so frustrating that the worst of what she does will never get her in trouble with any judge, because DH doesn't have proof. But ultimately she does do enough stuff that is in writing or otherwise proved, that he has a good case anyway. And adding the other stuff just muddies the waters and lets it become more of a he said she said.

WhiteHeron, before DH got deposed we brainstormed questions he might get asked and then one-sentence answers that best explained his position and if possible brought it around to what's best for the kids. Depending on how much his lawyer reins him in, you might have some insight over what he'll ask because he can't help himself. If you're really lucky he'll focus on stuff that's not relevant to the case and your lawyer can object to a lot of it. If the lawyer is better than that, think about the issues at hand and what they would need from you to prove their case. And imagine questions about that.

One good piece of advice that he got is to really listen to the question. If it's a yes or no question, just say yes or no. If it's a statement without a question, don't say anything, make them come up with a question.

For example: "Don't you think you should be doing what's in the kids best interests?" (Implying that you're not). "Yes." Don't go on to explain why you are, unless they follow up. That sort of thing. Grandstanding about why you should do what's in the kids' best interests, that doesn't get an answer at all.

[hhaw]

PennyLane, that's such good advice..... to wait for a question, and not respond to inflammatory statements like...
"Don't you think you should do what;s in the best interest of the children?"

It's perfectly acceptable to remain silent, then respond to prompting with....."You haven't asked a question.  You made a statement."  Appear eager helpful, calm, and always child centered.  That cuts down on trouble, IME.

ALSO..... the questions and statements by opposing counsel, and maybe others, that might bring up anger.....

the best advice I ever received was to treat these moments as opportunities to educate your audience, and speak as though you're addressing young children, bc it helps you stay level, and calm, IME. 

Short, and sweet. 

Stick to the mission. 

It's OK to ask for breaks.  Wear a symbol, bracelet, something to remind you to stick to the mission, and not get angry, sidetracked, or mislead. 

Touch it often.

[Whiteheron]

hhaw- great advice. That's the same type of approach I took to the psych evaluator (based on advice from here). I spoke in examples, gave situations, no labels. I did not call him anything, I let her draw her own conclusions. Based on my responses, she described him as a narcissist. So I guess it's pretty apparent. In his psych eval, he kept trying to control the interview, which she noted several times in her report. So my L is going heavy with labeling him as controlling, but nothing more. Every time she's in front of the judge she points out that he keeps trying to control me. We also have proof that he is extremely controlling - all of his text messages, his affidavits, letters from his L to my L demanding I do this or that. So we can back up this aspect of his personality with evidence.

I can prove his cheating. I can prove he's lied in his affidavits to the court. I was also diagnosed with PTSD caused by his treatment of me. It's in my T's notes that stbx demanded she turn over. So that's part of the record as well.

penny- His L lets him get away with just about anything. My L says she's never seen his L act so unprofessional before - so her thinking is that his L knows it's a lost cause and is just soaking stbx for all the $$$ he can. My L friend suggested that stbx's L is pushing for trial, not only for the $$, but because his client (stbx) is out of control and the L doens't want to be sued by stbx if things go south. If we go to trial, then the L isn't at fault, stbx's rage will be directed at the judge (shows how little his L understands his personality - he will blame everyone involved). My friend has told me on a few occasions that it sounds like stbx's L has done me a favor, when I describe certain situations/instances. I don't see it that way, because his L is still allowing stbx to abuse me through him and the courts. I just want to be left alone.

I have no idea what I'll be asked. I mean, aside from getting T for DS, there isn't anything I can think of that I did "wrong." stbx used to complain about all of the kids' activities, that I was pushing/forcing them. I think he may have even said something about that in his psych eval. I just don't know. I'm a straight arrow. So I overlooked two expired condiment jars in the fridge. So I was exhausted and hadn't yet decluttered the countertops. How does this amount to "evidence" to support his "case"?

I don't even know what their case is! I think that's a huge part of the problem for me. What is he trying to claim? Aside from demanding 50% custody and pretending to be super dad, I just don't know!

One good piece of advice that he got is to really listen to the question. If it's a yes or no question, just say yes or no. If it's a statement without a question, don't say anything, make them come up with a question.

I need to work on this. I will remember it. It will be nothing but a fishing expedition. I don't want to give them any scraps they can use against me.

opensky - I am really curious to know how stbx would react on the stand. Esp if his lies are exposed.

[openskyblue]

I think the advice of "stick to the mission" is a good one. As cold as this sounds, the courts don't care much about who cheated or lied. Rather, they concentrate on two things -- the money division and child custody. Insomuch as how your stbx's behavior impacts those two big areas is probably the best place to focus. Similarly, it's good to get clear before you are in the question box as to what is important to you. From your other posts, it seems that the custody issue is number one with money right behind. It really doesn't matter what he lies about, how dramatic he gets, etc.

As others mentioned, the shorter your answers the better. Other tips are:

-- If you can answer "yes" or "no" to a question, do so.
-- Only answer questions -- never answer probing statements that sound like questions, but aren't (ie. You were backing your car out of the drive when you hit your ex. This is not a question and is leading.)
-- Lawyers like to fluster you by asking multi-part questions. If presented with one, ask the lawyer to break it down into separate questions and answer those.
-- It's okay to say "I don't know" if you don't know.
--Most important:  Never provide additional information or go off on a long explanation. It will always get you into trouble. You only want to give the opposing counsel the information they ask for. Discovery is for them to know what to ask you at trial. The less of that you provide, the better.

Good luck!  I've been questioned in a divorce deposition and in a criminal trial (not mine!). It's harrowing. Take as many breaks as you need.

[Penny Lane]

I don't even know what their case is! I think that's a huge part of the problem for me. What is he trying to claim? Aside from demanding 50% custody and pretending to be super dad, I just don't know!

Oh man that is so frustrating! It seems like you're in a really uncertain position here.

I think openskyblue is right, the two issues will be parenting time and money. Even if you don't know specifics about what they'll ask, can you come up with talking points for each thing? Like, with parenting issues "I think my proposal is in the best interest of the kids" and with money "I think my proposal is the fairest way to split things up."

So like "why did you leave expired condiments in the fridge?" maybe the answer is "I was focused on other things that were more critical for the kids during the separation" = bring it back to the kids. Then if they go on (which would truly be ridiculous) "do you make a habit of leaving expired condiments in the fridge?" "No." "Are there any expired condiments in your fridge right now?" "I can't say for certain." "You don't know if something in your fridge is expired?" "No." I mean, they can try to have that exchange (if your lawyer doesn't object) but I can't imagine that ever makes it in front of a judge. And that's your goal - don't give them anything that they can take to the judge.

Maybe think through polite ways to explain your concerns with him having 50/50? Like, "I think the current arrangement gives him the best chance to be a good parent without getting overwhelmed."

Even if you can't predict every off the wall thing he might ask about, I think you'll feel more confident going into it if you have some simple phrases and thoughts to fall back on.

And remember! In the deposition you don't have to say what you CAN prove. And you don't have to prove it. In fact strategically you don't want to give away all the things you're able to prove that the opposing counsel doesn't know about. It's better to surprise them later if you're pretty certain this isn't going to be settled.

If his lawyer is just doing whatever your ex wants, I bet a lot of the questions will be irrelevant. (BM tried to use DH's deposition to try to ask personal questions about me, the cleanliness of our house, all kinds of things that BM wanted to know that had nothing to do with the trial. All of them were objected to and he didn't have to answer any of them.)

Good luck, we'll all be rooting for you, I hope it goes as well as possible.

[hhaw]

About what the PD's case IS......

he seems to be making it about your denying him access to his child, and he's pushing for more time than he normally asks for. 

Be very cognizant of appearing like you're withholding time with son, being petty, or in any way acting NOT in the best interest of your son.

IF you stay child centered, calm, and focused on your points it's difficult for the PD and opposing counsel to get purchase in a courtroom, IME.

And.... sometimes things FEEL like they're going wonky.  Sometimes it seems like they scored a point, or two, and that can be very upsetting.  Don't let it shake you.  Know this is normal, and there will be good and bad moments.  Like someone said... it's good to tip as little of your hand as possible in deposition.  What the PD doesn't know about usually works against them.

At trial, opposing counsel will ask questions that force you to say YES or NO, and it will feel bad, or look bad TILL your attorney has a chance to get in there, and "rehabilitate" you as a witness.  In other words, ask questions that get to the truth, and make clear what you really need the Judge to know.  When you answer a question, you get a chance to explain it, so get used to being patient about that sort of thing. 

Just stay calm, appear helpful.... you want opposing counsel to understand.  You're there to educate him, the judge, and everyone else in the courtroom.  You're consistent, calm, child centered mom working multiple jobs, while raising your son on your own, and working with a mentally unstable father of your child to keep that relationship in tact, with focus being on your son's safety as priority.

This isn't a simple story.  This is complicated, and the Judge won't know what to think UNTIL YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE, and lay it out in a way that makes sense.

Remember to keep visitation as normal as possible..... what it was before PD asked for shared custody.  Remember not to let him bait you.  Remember to never get snarky, to always be professional, and compassionate toward this disordered person.  If you're asking PD to give you some heads up about visitation, and you never asked for that before.....explain that.   You're striving to keep visitation in place, and as consistent as it's ever been because your son does better with consistency.  Kids also like to know what's happening ahead of time, and it's good to include that, along with your request for a heads up for planning planning purposes.  Everyone plans, to some extent, even moms striving to keep unsteady dads involved in their child's life to the best of her ability. 

You're walking a tight rope.  You're doing your best.  You're the consistent parent on top of her son's life, and the PD is going to have a hell of a time PROVING that situation needs to be changed.... esp with his mental health history.  Lord, what Judge is going to hand shared custody of a child to THIS man?

Even if you get an old fashioned he man Judge, who wants to give an unfit father equal access, you should always ask for safety measure, and graduated changes based on the PD doing well for extended periods of time before considering another change.  PDs are shot at agreeing to anything, and it just spins their heads to have authority exerted over them, IME.  They don't do well, and opposing counsel being combative is a plus, bc your worst nightmare is an opposing counsel who can  calm down the PD and get him to agree to a deal with ANY gains.  You want him to want what he wants, and what he wants IS EVERYTHING he's asking for. 

Explain to this Judge why it's in the child's best interest to keep the current plan in place.   Don't TELL HIM WHAT HE MUST DO, but lay out your information, sans expectation, and allow him to come to his own conclusion. 

I know I repeat things, but it's difficult to keep them in sight when you're under the gun, IME. 

[openskyblue]

Reading through these threads, I think it's worth refocusing -- you are going to a deposition, not a trial. It probably does not serve you well to have your head in both places.

The deposition is an information search of you by the opposing counsel. It's sole legal purpose is to get information out of you that the opposing counsel can use at trial to win. For  that reason, as the person being questioned, you should answer questions as succinctly and dispassionately as possible. No one is going to be found guilty nor is anything going to be proven in a deposition.

It sounds like your stbx's lawyer is not particularly good or professional. It also sounds like his mode of operation is to confuse and try to knock the other side (you) off their center. Insomuch as you can stay centered and calm, you can overcome this strategy easily. By throwing all this paper at you pre-deposition they have shown that they probably don't have much to bring to the case. And if they get nothing from you, they may not even decide to go to trial.

[Whiteheron]

Opensky - my head is all over the place. I know that's part of the problem. The deposition will happen after our March court date. His L has already confirmed this with my L - so he has zero intention of working with me or trying to settle. From what it sounds like, at the court date, a trial date will be set, most likely for sometime in April. This is all making me crazy. He has zero intention of trying to work anything out with me despite what he claims. I will follow the advice for both the deposition and trial. Kid focused, short answers, answer only what is asked, etc.

hhaw- I have two kids, DS15 and DD12 (I think I only mention DS in this thread). We have a temporary custody agreement based on the psych evaluator's recommendation. stbx actually has a little more time than she recommended, ~40%. I am accommodating on special days and I work with him as best as I can so that the kids' schedule runs smoothly. stbx is not happy with having less than 50%, so he is demanding more. On what grounds? I don't know. Kids are doing ok - showing signs that the time with stbx is too much, but neither will say anything to the GAL or their T's - they don't want to hurt stbx's feelings or make him mad. The most that was said was by DS, when he told the GAL that the extra wednesdays were too much, but when the GAL asked if he wanted less time with his dad, he refused to give a straight answer.

The judge was described to me as a very involved dad himself, so I worry he will think stbx is also very involved and a loving father. So far, for the most part, he is following the psych evaluator's recommendations.

I don't mind if you repeat anything. I need to hear it. Usually it takes several times before it sinks in.

Penny - you are right, parenting time and $$ are the issues. Money wasn't an issue until lately. He was agreeing to give me 50%, now he's changed that to 20%. Why? Who knows. I privately told my L that I would take 20% if he left custody alone. But he won't.

I do like your line about stbx being possibly overwhelmed with 50% custody. That would get under his skin - I am beneath him, yet I would be telling the court he wouldn't be able to handle 50%.  More lines like this would potentially cause his true self to come out.

I've already had to submit everything for discovery. So they know all I have to use against him (less than 30 pages). I think this is why he's submitted mountains of paperwork - so every aspect of my life is fair game.

I firmly believe stbx will force his L to ask me personal questions - about the cleanliness of my house, if I'm dating/seeing anyone, my routine, my job, etc.