PD looking for ASD diagnosis

[CagedBirdSinging]

Hi everyone,
I stumbled across this site a few days ago and felt an enormous sense of relief when I started scrolling through the forum posts. It's a relief to know that firstly I'm not going crazy, that the behaviour I'm dealing with isn't normal, and second that other people are experiencing the same thing.

I've been married to my PD husband for 3 years. At first he was very charming, swept me of my feet (I think it's called love bombing)... I fell for it unfortunately. Anyway the mask soon slipped. He went from being very friendly, sociable, funny, kind to being moody, bitter, and ultimately very angry. We have 2 babies now, and his rages have left me shaking. He has never hurt me physically but emotionally I've had to deal with everything from constant criticism to silent treatment to gaslighting that has left me questioning my own sanity. I left for a few months but went back because his family who are very wealthy were threatening to hire lawyers and make sure he got custody of the kids.

So here I am. Lately things have taken a weird turn, he has decided he is autistic and is going out of his way to get an asd diagnosis. He is using this to explain many of his PD traits (lack of empathy, silent treatment which he is now referring to as austistic mutism). I'm pretty sure he does not have asd... but why is he doing this? Does anyone else have similar experience? My guess is that he wants to frame his PD as asd in order to get more sympathy and to excuse any bad behavior. I'm going with him when he has an appointment with a psychiatrist, but I'm worried he is just going to lie and fool them.. how can I make sure he gets a correct diagnosis eg personality disorder?!

Any advice is appreciated!

[Penny Lane]

Hi CagedBirdSinging and welcome!

I'm so sorry you've had to deal with all this. You are not alone. You might browse the toolbox and other resources at the top of the page - they've helped me greatly in dealing with PD traits.

I once read in a book about personality disorders that some of the traits can appear to be the same as autism. But there is a key difference that people with autism/Aspergers, don't want to hurt others and actively work to stop doing it once they realize it's happening.

Either way, I would say any diagnosis is not a good excuse to hurt others blithely and without changing their behavior.

Does it seem like your husband wants to understand so that he can be a better partner, father, etc? Or is it maybe that he's just looking for an excuse to behave badly and then say "I can't help it, it's the Asperger's?" (And, for the record, I've known lots of people with Asperger's and none of them gave me the silent treatment, tried to gaslight me, etc.)

I'm glad you found us but I'm sorry you are in this situation.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello and welcome,

This sounds like a familiar situation for many of us on the site unfortunately- a situation where someone is behaving poorly and not taking responsibility, and finding ways to shield themselves from being held accountable for their choice and their behaviours.

A diagnosis of ASD (or ADD or ADHD) can be used to deflect and distract and deny, when a person has a PD.

I think it is good advice that you speak with someone who can help support you, and it is important that you document his behaviours.

I need to tell you this - it isn't your fault that you were pulled in to his realm. Abusive people will work hard to deflect and to blame others for their behaviours.

I do not know how often people get a PD diagnosis especially within the first visits. I grew up with a PD parent and I don't think she ever got a diagnosis.

Whether he gets a diagnosis or not, hopefully you can use this site and this forum to help you stay connected to your own intuition and your accurate perceptions.

Trust your self.

[11JB68]

My uOCPDh had me convinced fur a long time that he has OCD and aspbergers... 
Once I started researching controlling people and found this site as well as information about coercive control, I realized that people with those other diagnoses generally don't try to impose their will on others by way of verbal or emotional abuse. That was a key differentiator for me. I think that a diagnosis of ASD requires a full Neuro psych eval. Hopefully you'll get an accurate diagnosis. I wonder though How he might react if the diagnosis turns out to be anything other than what he expects.

[bloomie]

CagedBirdSinging - Hi and welcome. I am so sorry for all you are facing and thankful you have reached out.

Others have already made great suggestions and another very best thing that I can suggest for you is to find a therapist for you. An advocate and support for you is essential when in relationship with someone who may be highly adept at manipulating and creating an atmosphere of risk and disrespect of others through a myriad of shifting means. Holding up under that kind of pressure and staying focused and strong while standing on the shifting sands of him and his diagnosis and needs and behaviors and issues can diminish you and drain you to no end.

Being your very best self for you and your little ones is a priority and requires that you begin to work with resources and people who will surround you and support your health and well being and encourage you in learning to set firm boundaries with consequences for unacceptable and abusive behaviors from anyone, but especially in your own home from your life partner.

The resources at the drop down menu above are so helpful. Some other resources that may be eye opening:

A great book that cuts through the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt that can swirl: Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft and a list of resources from his website: http://lundybancroft.com/resources/

And a series of Youtube vids by a straight talker and psychologist Patrick Doyle (faith based, but very good general information): https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+dove+tv+patrick+doyle

And some helpful info around boundaries in a thread from here at Out of the FOG: https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=24.0

Keep coming back. Read the threads, resources, soak in the support and encouragement this community can and will provide you. The three C's:  "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and I can't control it." found here: https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/the-3-cs-rule

Strength and wisdom to you as you build a healthy support system for yourself and your little ones.

[Starboard Song]

My guess is that he wants to frame his PD as asd in order to get more sympathy and to excuse any bad behavior.

I encourage you to have great sympathy for him. And you needn't label him as evil for his bad behavior. Being full of love for our enemies is a tenet of multiple world religions, so sympathizing and loving someone who isn't an enemy seems like good advice. Love helps us to protect our hearts and keep them soft in the face of an adverse world.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with tolerating, accomodating, or putting yourself at risk of damage through anyone else's behavior. It doesn't make his behavior OK, and it doesn't mean you oughtn't manage him and protect yourself.

I've repeated this analogy several times lately, distinguishing between the moral culpability of others and our own right and duty to protect ourselves:

If a van is hurtling towards me and my wife on the sidewalk, it matters not one whit whether the driver is a homicidal terrorist, aiming for us, or an elderly man slumped over the wheel in a medical emergency. We will take drastic and immediate steps to protect ourselves from imminent harm.

And some people, as much as that driver, can be reliably counted upon to prevent us from thriving. We take decisive, sometimes drastic steps to protect ourselves from such people, securing our ability to thrive. We do so without regard for their moral culpability.

How to proceed? Everyone else has better suggestions than I will have. But I encourage you to be forthright: "you may very well have this-or-that condition. But it is never OK for anyone to behave in that-or-this way. I can work with you to help you behave well more consistently. But I will not allow mistreatment of myself or my children." I put that in quotes only to make my syntax less confusing: I doubt that is anything close to how to say it. But directly explaining that his condition -- whatever it may be -- is not an alchemy that converts destructive behavior to non-destructive behavior seems like the right idea. At best, it converts "evil" behavior to "innocent" behavior, still destructive.

So much strength to you.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Thanks everyone who has replied to my message. It feels so reassuring to know there are people out there who understand what I have been going through.

PennyLane, you're right - people with autism/Aspergers, don't want to hurt others. He says he wants to use his diagnosis to get help and to become a better dad, husband etc... but I find that hard to believe because he's talked about 'getting help' so many times before, and nothing has happened. He has also been making comments about how he's 'doing the best he can, given his condition' (e.g. aspergers).

Bloomie yes it's draining. I need to focus on my health and well being, and that of my kids. My PDH is so attention-seeking, and I think this is just another excuse to talk about himself all the time. It wears me out. I just need to stop listening!

Starboard Song, your point about empathy is very apt, and opened my eyes to another aspect of this situation. I think my H is preying on my natural kindness and empathy. I know I'm a bit of a 'softy,' a very loving and caring person, in fact I work in the caring professions, AND I work very closely with young people with disabilities, including many with ASD. (Why did I not see this connection before?!) He thinks that if he gets a diagnosis of ASD then I cannot blame him for his behaviour, and I cannot leave him. It's all so twisted, and just another mind game. 

It really infuriates me because he is now blatantly lying, making up symptoms to fit an ASD profile. For example, he says that he is sensitive to light, he hates crowds, he can't stand certain textures.... I have known him for 5 years and he has never mentioned these things. And he is the type of person who moans about everything, so he definitely would have mentioned this. He is saying that the ASD is the reason for his appalling treatment of my parents and all my friends and family, who he has tried to isolate me from.

I think I just need to take some time to think about what to say to the Psychiatrist when our appointment comes up next month. I will have to be honest. I'm wondering if this doctor would see me on my own beforehand?! It will be hard to be honest with my H in the room, for fear of repercussions. 11JB68 - if he doesn't get the diagnosis he wants, he will be furious.

Does anyone know if having a diagnosis of mental illness, whether it's ASD or PD, could work in my favour in terms of custody? Would the court be more likely to withhold or limit access for a father who has such a diagnosis? As I mentioned, one of my main reasons for staying at the moment is that I don't want him to ever have the kids on his own.

Thanks for the support, it means so much

[CagedBirdSinging]

Does it seem like your husband wants to understand so that he can be a better partner, father, etc? Or is it maybe that he's just looking for an excuse to behave badly and then say "I can't help it, it's the Asperger's?" (And, for the record, I've known lots of people with Asperger's and none of them gave me the silent treatment, tried to gaslight me.

Thanks for making me feel so welcome, I really appreciated your message. Last night my H was on again about using his ASD diagnosis to get treatment and become a better person. I just nodded and smiled (Medium chill has been my default mode with him for so long, I don't know how to react any different). Then he started getting annoyed saying 'well I'm doing pretty well despite my condition' ...I think he wants to hide behind this asd diagnosis to excuse all past and future bad behavior. He iw blatantly lying. He is making up symptoms that I know for a fact are not true.

You're right, people on the spectrum don't act that way. They are not angry and bitter, and they don't play mind games. Also he can be so, so charming.. people with asd are not able to behave in such a manipulative way. He has read so much stuff on autism he is determined to get this diagnosis.. I don't see any way of stopping this happening. But I don't have to stay with him. I'm just scared for the kids. I don't ever want him having them on his own.

Sorry for this is rambling a bit. I'm very tired, working, doing all the household work by myself plus all the night feeds, basically being a single mum even though I'm married, and H has me constantly worried and on edge. Thanks for your support
X

[Penny Lane]

Hi CagedBirdSinging,

It sounds like you are exactly right, that he says he's getting this diagnosis to get better but really he wants to have it as an excuse for whey he "can't help it" to treat you badly.

Again, you know this, but that is not true! He has choices and he chooses every day how to treat you.

I also want to address your point about if you leave him what happens to the kids.

It is true that divorcing your husband would leave you with a LOT less control over what happens to the kids, some of the time. That might mean that he ends up being alone with them sometimes, and I hear you that that's a very scary thought.

But the converse is also true. You will have a lot MORE control over what happens to them on your time. I think they would really benefit from having a mom who's not constantly on edge. They would also benefit from not having to see an unhealthy marriage in front of them every day. You could teach them to be resilient and to have coping skills for when they go back to their dad's house.

I'm not saying you SHOULD leave. Only you know what's right for you in that regard. But I think you should give some serious thought to not just the drawbacks but the benefits for your kids. I especially want to say it is NOT a selfish thing to do. If you leave a toxic relationship, your kids gain a ton even though it might seem like they're losing out in the short term.

If you think this is something you even might do, I strongly suggest you be strategic about it. That means talk to a divorce lawyer now, before you make the decision. Figure out what you are going to wish you had documented to gain custody, and start working on documenting it. If you never leave, well, you have a record of your kids' childhood that you wouldn't have had otherwise. If you do, you will be glad you did it.



I'm glad you're here. I hope you will stay and check out the forums - either the chosen relationship or the separating and divorcing forum, or maybe both - and hear and get support from others in your situation.

[CagedBirdSinging]

Hi PennyLane,

Thanks for your words of wisdom, especially around the issue of leaving, and the impact on the kids. I think I find it scary because they are so small. Eldest is 2, youngest only a baby. They are so utterly dependent on me. Not only would I worry about his moods and temper, but I'd worry about him not being capable of meeting their basic care needs. He would never remember to feed them at appropriate times, he wouldn't know how to make up a bottle, he wouldn't know how to help the toddler use the potty etc... I know it's daft, but it just worries me. Also he is so unpredictable, and has ideas that are frankly insane. Once (last summer) I had to stop him from taking the baby swimming in the Atlantic Ocean. Like, seriously, he wanted to go right in deep into the freezing cold ocean with her. When I objected, I was accused of 'not allowing him to be a father' etc. He is clearly unsuitable to look after kids, and is prone to make stupid impulse decisions like that, which could put them in danger. I get nervous just writing about it...

So, yeah... lots to think about if I decide to take that path. You are right, I need to be very practical about it. I left once before, but it was more of an emotional move, the baby was very young, I had no plan and nowhere to go. If I leave again, it will be more strategic, when I am in a good place, feeling strong, healthy and capable.

Do you mind me asking what sort of thing should I be documenting, as regards custody? And how should I document? Is it ok to type on a Word document?

Thanks again, you are so kind.

[Penny Lane]

I have some very general advice but I want to offer a couple caveats: 1. Don't let anything I say get in the way of your safety! If you think he will find evidence that you've documented and do something bad, don't do it or find a way to hide it. 2. I'm not a lawyer but also the rules and the procedures of court vary widely across states and definitely internationally. That's why I say talk to a lawyer; even if I could tell you what evidence would 100% be a slam dunk where I am, it might not matter where you are.

Here's a general checklist about leaving abusive relationships that you might want to consult if you get to that point.

But I think your point was more, what will you wish you had documented, long-term, in order to get full custody?

I think generally for an initial custody case you will want to prove that you are the primary parent who spends the most time with them, and potentially that your ex is violent, neglectful or otherwise dangerous for the kids.

So on the first one, what areas of the kids' lives does he just not participate? You mention feeding and potty. So what if you kept a log of all the feedings? Handwritten? Don't write "THIS IS DOCUMENTATION IN CASE I FILE FOR DIVORCE" on top of it. Just like, keep track of when you feed the baby. Write it down so it's in your handwriting or if you use an app or something, find a way to note that it's you doing the feeding. Same with potty. Can you keep a toilet training log? Ostensibly this could help you do better potty training. Do everything in writing that you possibly can. There are probably other areas where you could keep a log or write notes to yourself in some kind of diary. You don't have to say he's not doing it, you just note that you're doing it each time, you know? If you have a chance to raise any concerns about him/his parenting to the doctor, do that. You can frame it as "H is doing this thing but that concerns me, can you confirm whether or not it's ok?" They might write it down and then you could later request the medical file. When they go to school talk to their teachers in writing as much as possible. If you're the one who exclusively takes the kids to the doctor and communicates with the doctor, see if you can find a way to show that in writing. Heck, could you send him emailed updates about "here's what's going on in the kids' lives"? (But, NOT if that has the potential to become dangerous for you.)

Same deal with documenting your concerns about his parenting. If can't put your concerns about him to him in writing (you probably can't), write yourself an email and send it so it's time stamped. "On X day, H tried to take the baby into the Atlantic Ocean. It was XX degrees and he wanted to go X feet deep. When I said he couldn't he yelled at me." If you express your concerns to anyone else, try to do that in writing as well.

It seems like physical abuse gets taken a lot more seriously than emotional abuse, so if he ever hits one of the kids definitely call the police, take the kids to the doctor and, ideally, get out ASAP. Don't cover for him, ever, if you have to call the police on him do not later lie or refuse to press charges. In this case, I know there's a safety risk for you there but that could have long-term consequences and prevent you from later getting help for you and the kids. And the system can't help you if you are hiding his abuse. This also goes for other threatening behavior that's on the spectrum of physically intimidating but doesn't cross the threshold into violence.

Like I said, I think an experienced lawyer could give you a better sense of what specifically you have to prove in your jurisdiction and what evidence has been the most helpful for others.

Here are some other observations I've gleaned from around here about divorce outcomes with a PD. Again, the rules vary wildly by jurisdiction but this seems to be the pattern:

1. Nowadays it seems judges rarely order one parent to have truly supervised visitation forever. Especially if you go to a trial, it seems that the best you could hope for in the official order is they spend every other weekend with him. But, he might agree to settle the case rather than take it to court, accepting that he should only have the kids during the day, no overnights. That does happen, especially if the PD feels they lose out on something they want by going to trial (money, status, reputation, stuff like that).

2. When the kids are babies and especially breastfeeding, there does seem to be a tendency to support that by not having them away from their mother for too long. Unfortunately for your situation what this normally looks like is small amounts of visitation for the dad initially which ramp up as the kid gets older. Of course, the kids will also be more able to take care of themselves as they get older.

3. It seems to be not uncommon for PD dads to just kind of give up on the kids. A lot of the time, at least from the anecdotal evidence on this forum, they mostly seem interested in their kids as a means to control their ex (the mom, in this case you) and if that doesn't work they kind of disappear. It's very sad but maybe ultimately for the best in some situations? A lot of the moms have said they were shocked that this happened to them, so you might not be able to predict whether your H would do this or not.

4. Setting the tone early on is important. Like if you start out having the kids most of the time and that ends up being the status quo, the PD is a lot less likely to challenge it than if you start out with 50/50 and then try to reduce his time. But, right after you get out is also going to be the hardest for you, emotionally, so remember that that's just the first step of the process.

It is NOT daft to worry about your kids' basic needs getting taken care of. I don't want you to think I'm saying it is. I cannot imagine having to contemplate sending a baby and toddler to live part time with someone who is fundamentally unable to do even the most important things. But, my guess is that either he would learn quickly (like, do you think he REALLY wanted the baby to go in the Atlantic or did he just want you to worry he would take her in? Honestly it sounds like it could be a manipulative strategy to make you think you can't ever leave him...) or if he doesn't learn, he will probably not want to exercise his visitation with the kids. Because if you can't feed a baby or help a toddler go potty they are going to quickly make things miserable for everyone, and he won't want to deal with that.

One more kind of random thought: If your goal is that your husband is never alone with the kids, ever, that sounds ... incredibly exhausting and logistically very difficult. Even if you're together. When are you getting alone time and taking care of yourself? It sounds like you aren't, at all. I really think if you want to be the best mom you can be, something has to give in that regard. Even if you don't decide to leave him, I hope you can get a sitter or something sometimes. I also think having some you time will bring clarity to the problem of your husband and what you should do. (My guess is that he doesn't want you to have any relief at all and he would fight against you hiring a sitter. He might say the kids need you to be with them all the time. See if you can get him to put that sentiment in writing, even just a text.)

All that being said, if you feel like it's time to go but you haven't done those preparations ... go, and work with what you have. You wouldn't be the first to escape under less than ideal circumstances, and plenty of others have done so and gone on to thrive.

[Jamtin]

Everyone has already said what I might have said in reply to your question so I will simply emphasise that autism spectrum disorder is not an excuse for bad or inappropriate behaviour.  Sending love and light to you.

[hhaw]

About a dx helping you get custody.... I think you should be keeping a journal on ihs conduct, how he interacts with the children, keep notes, copy e mails, and abusive texts.... any thing and everything.

If it's legal to video in the home, or nanny cam DO IT.  If it's legal to record phone conversations DO IT.  WHen the day comes that you file for divorce you can't do better than have factual evidence lined up like little soldiers, IME.

Hide that evidence, which is hard to do when raising 2 little ones, but can be done. Keep it in the wheelwell of your car.  Forward the computer stuff to someone trustworthy. 

Once he knows you're collecting evidence against him, he'll make it much more difficult to document, so be smart.  Keep it secret.  Get everything you can, and make it count.

All the money in the world can't change evidence.  It can buy the PDs more bites at the apple, as they say.  Give them more chances, in other words.  More breaks, more advocacy in the courtroom, but in my experience it's the one with the best records who wins, bc the PDs make up stuff, and we waste time and money disproving it, but we still disprove it.

The PDs can't disprove the evidence if we remain calm, very professional in our collection of said evidence AND as some wise person said earlier on this thread ALWAYS refer to the PD with compassion, bc that's how people treat people with mental disorders, kwim?

You want to come across as a mother who wants to help her PD husband be the best darned father he can be while still protecting your children and keeping them as safe as can be.

If the PD comes up with a DX, of any kind, make copies of it, and have it in your file.  It's more evidence  to add to the list of behaviors and words you're going to prove in that courtroom some day.

Don't let the PD trigger you into outbursts, even thought they often do and say things that make us want to act crazy, IME.  It could work against you, and you're job is to be the steadiest, most consistent mom you can be for those children.

You think about what you say and do, and how it would play in court if people saw or heard it.   

Good luck to you and those lovely children of yours,

[CagedBirdSinging]

Everyone has already said what I might have said in reply to your question so I will simply emphasise that autism spectrum disorder is not an excuse for bad or inappropriate behaviour.  Sending love and light to you.

Thanks so much, I appreciate your support. It certainly is not an excuse. He thinks (and has actually said) that his diagnosis will help him see his 'terrible past' in a different light. He has even hinted that people will need to apologise to him, once they realise he has ASD. This is people who he has treated like ****. Really, you couldn't make this stuff up. I'm so thankful for the support of everyone here.

[Starboard Song]

Does anyone know if having a diagnosis of mental illness, whether it's ASD or PD, could work in my favour in terms of custody? Would the court be more likely to withhold or limit access for a father who has such a diagnosis? As I mentioned, one of my main reasons for staying at the moment is that I don't want him to ever have the kids on his own.

From what I've heard and seen, courts poorly understand such diagnoses. If your point hangs on a diagnosis, his will hang on a doctor's testimony that he isn't dangerous, or on his evidence that he is committed to medication and counseling.

In any case, a focus on consistently damaging or risky behaviors is powerful, regardless of cause. His actual history of such behavior, consistent and long-term, is a true fact he cannot now medicate, counsel, or expert testimony his way out of.

Good luck. Be safe. Be strong.