Asperger Syndrome vs PD

[ploughthrough2021]

I just read up on Elon Musk having Asperger syndrome and started to search up on what the symptoms are.  It is pretty close to a person with a PD...But I think my spouse is sits somewhere between uNPD or uOCPD. Any thoughts on this anyone ?

[Poison Ivy]

there might be some similar symptoms or behaviors, but autism spectrum disorder is not a personality disorder.

[Cat of the Canals]

Here's a pretty good breakdown of the differences between the two, in a rather "textbook" way: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/narcissism-vs-aspergers-how-can-i-tell-the-difference-1114174

The way I've seen it summed up elsewhere is that some Asperger's traits might look a little like narcissism in a very superficial way, but the motivation or intent behind the behavior isn't anything like NPD.

Example: You're having a conversation and the topic turns to something that makes you uncomfortable. You try several subtle ways of changing the subject, but the other person just keeps going back to it. Someone with Asperger's might do this because they simply aren't picking up on the cues you're giving. It isn't malicious. They simply don't understand that the topic is making you uncomfortable. Someone with NPD, however, would keep on the subject BECAUSE it bothers you. Or because they've decided THEY want to talk about it, and their wants are bigger than yours.

Anecdotally, I've known a few people with diagnosed Asperger's and also people with PDs, and I don't think they "feel" at all similar to be around. The people I know on the autism spectrum are actually extremely empathetic and sensitive and would be very apologetic if you told them a boundary had been crossed. Versus the PDs I know, who would waif or DARVO or call you "too sensitive." In my opinion, they look more similar on paper than they do in real life.

[11JB68]

For years my Updh has said he has OCD and aspbergers. For a long time I believed that. I did a lot of reading and there are many differences between pds and aspbergers and between OCD and ocpd.

[JustKeepTrying]

My son has high-functioning autism.  Diagnosed at age 15 months.  My ex is OCPD and my sister is NPD.  Very different.  Completely different and I would find them hard to confuse.

Now that being said, and I am not a doctor, I would imagine a person with ASD could also be a PD. 

But as for Elon Musk and others like them, (and Aspergers has been removed from the DSM it is now high functioning autism) they could be considered narcissistic because they don't have social skills and can't read cues.  But I don't they don't manipulate or are intentionally cruel. Now that is not to say a person with ASD wouldn't manipulate but not for the same reason.  When I see a person with ASD use manipulation, it's to avoid a behavior or situation that find uncomfortable - like social situations, loud noises, preferred foods - all those same reasons you and I do it.  You want that better seat, you may work your way to the front to get that seat.  But a PD is different - their manipulation is often cruel, passive-aggressive, and masked in a smile.

ASD is the depression of the part of the brain that controls speech and social skills. Since it's neurological its effects are different with every person - hence the spectrum.  PD is something else completely.  Although looking at my family, I wonder if there isn't some gene running through it all.

I watched that episode last night and I was not surprised when he said he had Asbergers. 

[Andeza]

To throw additional points of interest into the discussion, high functioning autism can also be masked. This is theorized to be significantly more common in women than in men, explaining a large portion of the disparity in diagnosis between the two. Essentially, masking is fake it till you make it on steroids (in case that wasn't known). However, the underlying tenants of autism are still there and have their role to play, but much more internalized. The struggle to make eye contact isn't as obvious except under stress. The desire to press a certain topic of conversation can be shuttered in favor of letting the other person lead the conversation away. Peers don't know you have a struggle, they just think you're a little odd or a little weird. Masking is a learned behavior and is doable for some. It's just... hard.

A pwPD on the other hand, may wear a mask for the world but cannot maintain that mask in private with the victims of their abuse. It's too much effort for them to maintain and they need their fix.

[Dandelion]

I have often wondered if there was a genetic aspect re. narcissism.  I have also often wondered if there was a link between narcissism and autism.

To confuse things further, autism is an UMBRELLA term as well as spectrum.  I believe my 18 year old son has many signs of PDA (pathological demand avoidance) which is under the autism umbrella (though is expressed slightly differently to other kinds of autism).

I am only speaking from my reflections on my OWN experience here with my mother, son and a couple of friends.  Here are some similarities I believe between my son and my (narcissistic?) mother.

1.  My mother watches TV alot, my son on his smartphone or doing nothing.
2.  They are both somewhat 'passive' in life.
3.  Flat effect emotionally alot of the time.
4.  Meltdowns.  My mother has some terrible ones when she feels affronted.  My son is not as bad as this or as spiteful BUT he can be moody and rude and take offence.  E.g. he often complains to me about delivery people not being nice to him (I try to explain they are just in a hurry. I can't understand why he takes offence).
5.  They both save their worst behaviours for home: "the mask".
6.  They are both cognitively quite on the ball, intelligent.
7.  They are both quite "out of sight, out of mind" kind of people.
8.  Neither of them are sing-y or danc-y or expressive people that way.
9.  They can both be quite OCD or rigid about how they want things done, but dont really respect much others' opinions or ideas.
10. I can't see either of them looking after animals properly.  My mother refuses to have pets (too much responsibility).  My son definitely likes them more but I cant see him looking after them properly.  I have always had to do any drudge work in both cases!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
There are personality differences too:
 
My mother likes routine.  My son doesn't really like doing anything, except on impulse.
My son can say sorry and mean it.  Though his behaviour doesn't necessarily change.
He is able to see his flaws (though he prefers not to).
My son is more sensitive to feelings and can empathise, though I'm not sure he necessarily displays this usually.
My son has got some deep feelings. I'm not really sure if my mother has or not, I don't think I have seen them, except for emotion of anger, and some v. occasional sentimentality.
He is not particularly law abiding, my mother is more so.
My mother does play by social rules, my son tends to make his own up (very PDA that).
My mother held down a routine job easily, I can't see my son doing that.

I think my grandmother, though v sweet, might have been slightly 'simple'-autistic,.

So, maybe there is a genetic link? And maybe narcissism is also an umbrella term, just like autism, as well as being spectrum from low to high?  Maybe my mother is more ASD, something I have considered before?

Ultimately, I don't know.  It is interesting but a bit disconcerting to think about this.  I thought CatoftheCanal's link above on the differences was interesting, and had some truth to them (however I believer the article's assertions re autism do not all apply to Pathological Demand avoidance 'autism').

[ploughthrough2021]

Very interest read. Thanks to you all for your great contribution !

[Starboard Song]

When I look back at the crisis that lead to NC with my in-laws, I see that my FIL's enabling behaviors were just as strange and damaging as my MIL, who appeared to be classic borderline. He lied, and didn't seem to know it. He bullied, and acquiesced to her every demand. And since then, we've noticed little patterns here and there, in many people. Of course, they are milder, or more transient, or less pervasive. These aren't pathological people, just good old-fashioned humans, doing their imperfect best.

Where on earth is this headed?

I try to avoid worrying much over diagnoses, and comparisons, and genetic causes, and overlaps between things. I try to realize that everybody is a little off-key. These named PDs are only a nick-name for when someone is very off-key, most of the time, in a particular set of ways. Far more important than worrying over the details of those nicknames, my crisis taught me a lot about de-escalation and self-protection. It taught me when to fold your cards, and when to accept some ongoing risk.

I think we are all better, and less vigilant, and less negative if we focus on the tactics necessary for protection in extreme cases, and otherwise don't try to characterize anyone's behavior as a little this or a little that. I don't mean to call out a discussion as wrong-headed or silly. But I see that for many of us it is far better to focus on tactics and moving forward, and not on the minutia of diagnoses and unknown causes.

[Cat of the Canals]

I try to avoid worrying much over diagnoses, and comparisons, and genetic causes, and overlaps between things. I try to realize that everybody is a little off-key. These named PDs are only a nick-name for when someone is very off-key, most of the time, in a particular set of ways. Far more important than worrying over the details of those nicknames, my crisis taught me a lot about de-escalation and self-protection. It taught me when to fold your cards, and when to accept some ongoing risk.

Good point, Starboard. The whole Diagnosis A vs Diagnosis B thing ends up being especially academic when most of the PDs we're discussing on this board have never and will never be diagnosed.

And for me, it's the kind of thinking that allows the potential for slipping back into the fog. I spent the early days of my journey thinking "maybe my mother only has *traits* and not a full PD". But does it really matter? If I feel chronically disrespected, unseen, and unheard, does it matter what the DSM-5 would say? Not really.

[Dandelion]

I do agree with your point Starboard in many ways.  We can only live our lives and try to protect ourselves if possible.  Of when faced with these puzzles or things that don't make any sense, some of us like to try and "understand" more.  "Try" being the operative word, as sometimes we can end up more down the rabbit hole, though sometimes it can help.  But ultimately there are more things on heaven and earth than we can ever truly understand.  At best, at least on a practical level, we can only try and remove ourselves from the path of abuse or disrespect  ...

[Starboard Song]

Thanks for understanding my intent. I had forgotten that weird side-effect, for some of us, where we can think to ourselves, "wait! if they have a disorder, doesn't that mean they can't help it?" And of course, we have to remind ourselves then of my analogy:

If you are walking down the sidewalk and see a van careening towards you, going very fast and only a few feet away, it really doesn't matter whether the driver is a demented terrorist, or an elderly man having a medical event. All that matters is that unless you take certain immediate precautions, you will predictably and reliably be hurt. It is like that with PD folks. We increase boundaries, or reduce contact, or even eliminate contact, as necessary to protect ourselves from predictable and reliable harm.

[JustKeepTrying]

I understand Starboard's point of getting out of the way and protecting yourself.  I also understand the concept of not "falling down the rabbit hole" and it can be unhealthy to obsess and not move on with life.  I get that.

But as a mother of a son diagnosed at just a year old with low functioning autism and spending years on therapy - to only see him grow into the incredible, empathic, fully functioning person he is today - and as the ex-wife of an OCPD - it is important to understand the difference. 

I can support and provide aid to my son knowing that there is a great possibility that he will grow and change and become a person who can have a full life with a partner and children.  He will have a job and be in healthy relationships and with therapy be OK.

My ex on the other hand - his behavior is purposefully hurtful all in aid to protect whatever emotion or behavior he wants.  My son would not do that - his behavior may hurt me - but he will change.  My ex won't.

Not all with ASD are like that.  Many of my friends with children on the spectrum are very low functioning and completely unable to express their feelings and their behaviors are hurtful - but that is different. 

Knowing and understanding and wondering if there is a genetic component may help my potential grandchildren.  If there is a genetic component then perhaps therapy can be provided early. 

But again you are right, this isn't something I should or will obsess over.  I should move over on the sidewalk and protect myself.  In the end, considering genetics, there really isn't much I can do.

[Starboard Song]

I can support and provide aid to my son knowing that there is a great possibility that he will grow and change and become a person who can have a full life with a partner and children.  He will have a job and be in healthy relationships and with therapy be OK.

My ex on the other hand - his behavior is purposefully hurtful all in aid to protect whatever emotion or behavior he wants.  My son would not do that - his behavior may hurt me - but he will change.  My ex won't.

That is so important, and such an important difference! Thank you for stating it with such power.

And good strength to you!!!

[Sidney37]

I have spent a lot of time considering these differences as well.  My mother is uNPD with some BPD traits.  For many years I wondered if my MIL was OCPD.  Then we started getting our kids tested for ADHD and looked at the questions on the ASD scales that we had to fill out as part of their ADHD testing.  MIL likely has what they once called Aspergers.   Does she have a PD, too?  We're not so sure.

I agree that there are many things that overlap between the two.  DH kept saying that his mother wasn't intentionally mean or manipulative.  She can be mean and manipulative when frustrated and in over her head in a social situation but  it's not as deliberate and intentional as my PDm or PD aunt.

You are dealing with a young person who can still be taught and molded.  Diagnoses and treatment make much more of a difference when you are dealing with a child.  Unfortunately when dealing with a 70 year old uNPDm and a 70 + year old MIL who likely has Aspergers and OCD that can look like NPD and OCPD, my reaction is the same to both.  I have to use medium chill, grey rock, limit contact, etc.  While MIL might not intentionally be mean and manipulative, some of the insults have been equally as hurtful. 

The demands by MIL to clean parts of my house that didn't need cleaning (my actual furnace) because of her OCD and insults (straight up, direct comments without an appropriate filter) about my level of cleanliness nearly killed my whole family when he damaged the furnace after being told not to clean it.   Her need to open windows at certain times if the day at exact measurements of opening after being told no multiple times led to my toddler nearly falling out an open window after she removed the multiple methods of child proofing because she just couldn't not help but to open the window X number of inches at X time for X hours. At first it seemed NPD, but the more we looked it seemed like Aspergers.

For many of us diagnoses don't matter other than how to respond to them.  For me it's the same because I'm not teaching MIL anything new at almost 80.  If it was my child, I'd certainly want to understand the differences to make sure I was handling it in the best way for growth and helping him to live his best life. 

[IcedCoffee]

I can support and provide aid to my son knowing that there is a great possibility that he will grow and change and become a person who can have a full life with a partner and children.  He will have a job and be in healthy relationships and with therapy be OK.

My ex on the other hand - his behavior is purposefully hurtful all in aid to protect whatever emotion or behavior he wants.  My son would not do that - his behavior may hurt me - but he will change.  My ex won't.

That is so important, and such an important difference! Thank you for stating it with such power.

And good strength to you!!!

+1. People on the autism spectrum generally welcome a diagnosis as explaining why the world seems strange to them. PDs (at least the types I've experienced) do not welcome a diagnosis at all. It would mean that they are the ones that need to change, and this is not going to happen easily.

[Dandelion]

I have a friend whose son is diagnosed autistic, he gets quite a lot of help at school etc, and family life is v happy.  I think he will do well with support.

However, some people who have suspected autism do not want to be assessed or diagnosed, and I would put my teenage son in that category.  I'm not going into detail except to say PDA - pathological demand avoidance - is a new area of autistic diagnosis.  Superficially people with PDA can seem fairly able, so it's very under the radar; there is opposition to the most everyday of demands eg getting out of bed; flouting of rules and laws; strong mood changes and other markers.  It expresses itself differently to most autism, though I think there are root similarities.  However, perhaps later in life my son might choose to look into this possibility - it may help him understand himself more at least.   I don't know. 

In all these areas, trying to understand has helped, but I feel at some point (maybe something I'm slowly approaching ) a kind of acceptance beckons, a bit like medium chill maybe, and appreciating the good where possible.

[Jsinjin]

I have diagnosed high functioning autism which was first clinically diagnosed as asperger's when I was in the third grade.   My daughter has it too.   I know that I, (and my daughter) have strong reading obsessions with books, we say things that make sense to us but are completely out of synch with conversation sometimes and have no idea we are doing it.   I have nearly zero emotional intelligence often wondering why someone is upset.  A former supervisor of mine once said that a valuabke.trait I have is saying whatever the data shows without a filter of worrying about offending someone.   

But I know that I take feedback, I learn from errors and mistake and I have an almost infinite capacity for forgiveness almost to the point of being taken advantage of by repeat offenders.  I  have a deep sense of empathy and if I realize ive said something offensive I feel bad about it and I don't believe the world is black and white.   

My spouse is more severe on the OCPD scale than I am on the asperger's scale (I'm very highly functioning).   My spouse sees the world in very black and white terms, never forgets a slight and always assumes the worst or worst case scenario will occur.   

My autistic is a gift to me that I would not part with.   I know it about myself and I'm surrounded by friends and family and they often consider my intense fascination with math and science to be fun even when I ignore people to read and work problems.  My uOCPdw considers everyone to be suspect, attacks those who have disagreements of opinions even if those opinions don't matter and are personal (example: I have an opinion that cyclists taking up a lane of a two lane road should pull over occasionally to let cars go past but I don't think at them, gripe or complain, I just feel that way and rarely express the opinion and I always pull my bike off to the side of the road to let cars speed by.  My wife was so violently angry at me when I voiced this opinion she screamed and swerved the car violently driving at high speeds and yelling st me and the kids who were scared of her because in her mind the cyclists had a legal right to ride at any speed-true but it's ok for me to have an opinion if I don't hurt someone). 

That's just one difference.   My spouse can't be wrong, doesn't take feedback and can't allow someone to voice a thought that is contrary to hers without a significant correction which is often violent.

I don't think she shows autistic traits but in talking with a therapist who helped me, she is definitely on the OCPD spectrum in the severe level.  When it has been pointed out to me, every time I have made someone feel bad through a comment or misunderstanding I have worked to apologize and ensure that I don't make those insensitive comments again. 

I think you will find that most high functioning autistics in the business or acsdemic world are more eccentric and misunderstood than manipulative.  When inappropriate behavior or things are done that hurt people, the high functioning autistics doesn't see the behavior as justified because of a need to control or desire to get what they want.   They forget in that moment that now everyone thinks like they do.

Just my opinion.

[Boat Babe]

Thank you so much for that Jsinjin, what you wrote about how you are in the world. You have added to my knowledge of neurodiversity, or at least my knowledge of you!

I have family and good friends with high functioning autism in my life and, neurodiverse as they are, they are definitely not personality disordered.

Good thread people.

[JustKeepTrying]

jsinjin,

I had respect for you before in our previous interactions in other threads. 

I have so much more respect for you now!  You are brave to add to this thread and I am in awe of that.

Your description of the difference from your perspective helps me a great deal.  Knowing the difference can make a difference.  Thank you.

I am also grateful to you because my son starts college this fall.  While this past year he managed the last year of high school on his own couch surfing (too much to go into/pandemic), I know that I was there in the same town and could somehow get to him if needed,  But now he will hours if not days away completely on his own and it, frankly, terrifies me.  But to read your account, knowing your input on other threads, with a family and job, giving to a community, you give me hope.  You have to understand that he was completely nonverbal at 15 months - now many people can't tell.  AP, honor society, cross country, girlfriend, and so much more - he is a great kid. 

Thank you for your honesty and vulnerability.