Out of the FOG

For years, every Xmas day I'd drive the 20+ miles to collect my Dad, he'd have lunch at our house, then I'd drive him home.

Every year it was hassle. He'd demand I be there at 9am to collect him - I'd say no I'll be there after the kids have opened their presents and he'd sulk about it. Pretty much the whole journey back would be criticism of how "the kids should understand".

He'd get there and be very rude. No manners at all. He'd make sure everyone knew HE WAS UNWELL. He'd stumble around the living room pretending he can't walk  (he can walk 1/2 a mile to shops normally). He'd pretend it was too dark and he couldnt see.

We'd have inappropriate stories, he'd criticise us and how much we spent on the kids. Both my wife and I would be looking at our watches and praying he'd say he wanted to go home. I'd end up driving around most of the day on Xmas day getting home at 6-7pm. I don't drink much bit, of course, no alcohol for me because I was driving - Dads attitude was "well you don't mind do you?" umm yeh thanks for giving me the choice.

It was, if I'm honest, a complete nightmare. How my wife put up with it I'll never know.

Two years ago he was twice as bad. He'd been ill so was in a mood. He was VERY rude to everyone, generally acted badly, and made out he was dying. Pretty much ruined everyones day. Worse still when I took him he started saying he felt like he wasnt going to last and he needed an ambulance. Stupidly, I spent hours talking him around. All the while my 5 year old is at home waiting for her Daddy to play with her. Wife was not amused.

So enough is enough. I told him no can do Xmas day last year. Wife is working, so we're not doing xmas dinner but you can come boxing day. He was not happy. Hard luck. As it was wife was working boxing day (shes a nurse) so she avoided him.

This year hes not having it that shes working AGAIN xmas day. Not that he has any idea how things work. Hes really started to kick off. As has brother whos moaning that he had him last year (forgetting I had him for probably 15 years before that!).

I cant subject my family to him. His behaviour is not just something you can put up with a few hours any more. Its that bad.

BUT of course, I dont want to tell him home truths that hes not welcome. He might deserve it but hes still my dad.

HI p123,

I think you can see the "train wreck" coming, so it's time to get off the tracks.

Just because you've always hosted your dad on Xmas doesn't mean you have to this year.  You are perfectly within your rights to reserve that day for your immediate family.  I would start by telling brother that under no circumstances is dad going to ruin your Christmas with your family this year.  It's up to him if he wants to host him on that day, but you aren't.   Period.

See what he says.  If he says he's not going to host, either, then there's little you can do about that.  But I would hold firm in my conviction that dad isn't coming to your house.  As far as an explanation to your dad, you don't have to elaborate.  "Not going to work you coming this year.  Wife doesn't know what her schedule will be like."  And then hold to that.  Repeat it fifty times if you have to, like a broken record.  Don't let your dad "guilt" you into hosting him. 

Your dad is not going to like any arrangements you make short of having him over so he can ruin your day.  So I wouldn't expect anything less than a tantrum.  Let him have his tantrum.  Better have it over the phone than at your house on Xmas. 

You could offer an alternative if you are so inclined, such as getting together on Boxing Day like you offered last year.  But as I said, he won't like it no matter what, so just expect that and stand your ground.

You might look at this situation like you are doing your dad a favor.  Not only is your family miserable when he attends this event, he is miserable, too-- or at least he claims to be.  So not hosting him is better for everyone.   :yes:  My two cents.

Quote from: illogical on September 17, 2019, 06:19:33 AM
HI p123,

I think you can see the "train wreck" coming, so it's time to get off the tracks.

Just because you've always hosted your dad on Xmas doesn't mean you have to this year.  You are perfectly within your rights to reserve that day for your immediate family.  I would start by telling brother that under no circumstances is dad going to ruin your Christmas with your family this year.  It's up to him if he wants to host him on that day, but you aren't.   Period.

See what he says.  If he says he's not going to host, either, then there's little you can do about that.  But I would hold firm in my conviction that dad isn't coming to your house.  As far as an explanation to your dad, you don't have to elaborate.  "Not going to work you coming this year.  Wife doesn't know what her schedule will be like."  And then hold to that.  Repeat it fifty times if you have to, like a broken record.  Don't let your dad "guilt" you into hosting him. 

Your dad is not going to like any arrangements you make short of having him over so he can ruin your day.  So I wouldn't expect anything less than a tantrum.  Let him have his tantrum.  Better have it over the phone than at your house on Xmas. 

You could offer an alternative if you are so inclined, such as getting together on Boxing Day like you offered last year.  But as I said, he won't like it no matter what, so just expect that and stand your ground.

You might look at this situation like you are doing your dad a favor.  Not only is your family miserable when he attends this event, he is miserable, too-- or at least he claims to be.  So not hosting him is better for everyone.   :yes:  My two cents.

Hes definitely not coming - no way jose. I did it for years like you said but hes blown it now.

I used to say to my wife - just put with him for a few hours once a year and she would. BUT its gone past that. Hes my Dad, I cant bail on him completely, but its not fair he spoils everyone elses xmas.

He went to my brothers last year and moaned because brother planned to take him to the pub for an hour. Brother always goes. I did stick up for my brother and said to dad "he always goes on xmas day, if you don't want to join him then stay home".

In Dads eyes, its not a favour. Its duty. Hes old and someone has to have him over for xmas. My family and kids need to understand how this works because he has to be put first.

I have a feeling this year brother won't want to have him and I'll get woe is me I'm all alone. Of course, his sister and his cousin wont invite him. They've criticised me in the past. Apparently its my duty to do this but they keep their heads down when he needs them. Great, eh?

Of course, with my wife being a nurse, I've got an easy out. I should tell him straight but its easier to lie to be honest. Not sure how long I'm going to be able to say shes working EVERY xmas day though.

Boxing day is doable. Wife has volunteered to work then. Which is fine - like I said I cant submit them to my Dad. Other than that I am hoping to talk him into going out instead.

Quote from: p123 on September 17, 2019, 07:19:15 AM
...Of course, with my wife being a nurse, I've got an easy out. I should tell him straight but its easier to lie to be honest. Not sure how long I'm going to be able to say shes working EVERY xmas day though.

Boxing day is doable. Wife has volunteered to work then. Which is fine - like I said I cant submit them to my Dad. Other than that I am hoping to talk him into going out instead.

It's hard to break the habit of JADEing.  Maybe you feel you owe him an explanation of why he can't come.  But the truth is, you don't.  It's your time and your family, and he has abused the "privilege" of coming to your house.  And not just once has he abused it.  It's happened over and over and over again.

So if you don't want to tell him about your wife's uncertain schedule, then don't.  Just say "It's not going to work for us this year, Dad.  You'll need to make other arrangements for Xmas.  We can still get together on Boxing Day."  Rinse, lather and repeat, despite his protests, "But.....but....but.  I'm your dad and you owe me."  Ignore and stick to your guns.

It will no doubt be hard, but you can do this!  Think of your dad as a spoiled child who won't compromise.  Who won't meet you halfway, just throws a tantrum.  Makes it easier to say "No."  You have to be the parent here instead of the child, which is twisted, but welcome to PD world.  Resist the urge to JADE.  "No" is a complete sentence.  It doesn't have to be said in an angry or annoyed tone, but it has to be said firmly and with conviction. 

This is soooo difficult.  My anxiety with regards to Thanksgiving and Xmas has already started.  Like you, it was our responsibility to host PDmil (and FIL when he was alive) for both of these holidays.  DH has 3 other siblings.  Why can't one of them step up?  Turns out that PDmil gravitates toward us because she likes our "environment" and because apparently I am the easiest spouse to get along with. 

That all stopped several years ago especially after I had enough coddling PDmil after FIL passed away.  I just couldn't do it anymore and I was tired of DH doing the same.  We tried so hard to help her with the transition into widowhood.  The thing is though is that she refused to start this new and different chapter in her life and more or less wanted DH to fill in FIL's shoes.  Uh, DH is my husband and he is a Dad.  Those are his first two responsibilities before filling any duties as son....but PDmil just didn't like that particular order.  She felt that "son" needed to come first.  I and the kids became invisible to her....even after all we had done.

As you can imagine, holidays have largely been about PDmil and not the holiday itself.  Why must it be about her?  Shouldn't it be about Thanksgiving or Xmas?  If we host Thanksgiving for example, why must she bring over stuff she has cooked up without asking?  DOn't even get me started about where she sat at the table....of course she would want to sit next to DH.  Nope.  I fixed that with table name cards.  She had this horrible way of heaping more food onto DH's plate....and yeah, DH is in his 50s and overweight.  Please.  But she wanted him to eat MORE because clearly he wasn't eating enough. 

At Xmas she would try the same thing....bringing something over that she made that clearly didn't go with what I had made....mind you at both these holidays she either sits there not participating in anything OR she exclusively talks with DH NOT IN ENGLISH!  In. The. Home. I. Share. With. My. Husband. and. Kids.   :evil2:  No more of that!!!  Highly disrespectful.

Thank fully the last few years we have gotten out of hosting for many reasons....weather (thank you!), PDmil's health ( :yahoo:), and being out of town. 

Like your father, my PDmil doesn't deserve to partake in these holiday celebrations because of her mood she exhibits with her presence.  It is such a major downer.  DH also has to be the taxi driver and doesn't get to enjoy his alcohol.  Who wants to go out in the rain or snow after that in the dark?  She could take an Uber or Lyft...but NO....that wouldn't work. 

Like the others have mentioned, do what you want to do and offer what you think is reasonable....and NO is also reasonable to all of it.  It is amazing how lopsided things get...especially when other siblings are involved.  And not only that, but the damaging Hallmark notion that we have to gather with extended family?  It is r.i.d.c.u.l.o.u.s.  -- especially with those like ours that behave badly?  They get a reward for behaving this way -- a nice meal and festive environment?  Nope.  Not in my book anymore.  I'll stick to just DH and the kids, thank you.  PDmil can figure out her own arrangements but she ain't gracing my dinner table anymore.

Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his. 

Quote from: illogical on September 17, 2019, 07:37:48 AM

Quote from: p123 on September 17, 2019, 07:19:15 AM
...Of course, with my wife being a nurse, I've got an easy out. I should tell him straight but its easier to lie to be honest. Not sure how long I'm going to be able to say shes working EVERY xmas day though.

Boxing day is doable. Wife has volunteered to work then. Which is fine - like I said I cant submit them to my Dad. Other than that I am hoping to talk him into going out instead.

It's hard to break the habit of JADEing.  Maybe you feel you owe him an explanation of why he can't come.  But the truth is, you don't.  It's your time and your family, and he has abused the "privilege" of coming to your house.  And not just once has he abused it.  It's happened over and over and over again.

So if you don't want to tell him about your wife's uncertain schedule, then don't.  Just say "It's not going to work for us this year, Dad.  You'll need to make other arrangements for Xmas.  We can still get together on Boxing Day."  Rinse, lather and repeat, despite his protests, "But.....but....but.  I'm your dad and you owe me."  Ignore and stick to your guns.

It will no doubt be hard, but you can do this!  Think of your dad as a spoiled child who won't compromise.  Who won't meet you halfway, just throws a tantrum.  Makes it easier to say "No."  You have to be the parent here instead of the child, which is twisted, but welcome to PD world.  Resist the urge to JADE.  "No" is a complete sentence.  It doesn't have to be said in an angry or annoyed tone, but it has to be said firmly and with conviction.

Yeh I know. I should just say no. Its just easier to lie to him and JADE I suppose.

If I just said no, honestly, he'd go on and on and on for months. If I say "sorry wife working" it'll last a few days.

Quote from: Pepin on September 17, 2019, 10:12:16 AM
This is soooo difficult.  My anxiety with regards to Thanksgiving and Xmas has already started.  Like you, it was our responsibility to host PDmil (and FIL when he was alive) for both of these holidays.  DH has 3 other siblings.  Why can't one of them step up?  Turns out that PDmil gravitates toward us because she likes our "environment" and because apparently I am the easiest spouse to get along with. 

That all stopped several years ago especially after I had enough coddling PDmil after FIL passed away.  I just couldn't do it anymore and I was tired of DH doing the same.  We tried so hard to help her with the transition into widowhood.  The thing is though is that she refused to start this new and different chapter in her life and more or less wanted DH to fill in FIL's shoes.  Uh, DH is my husband and he is a Dad.  Those are his first two responsibilities before filling any duties as son....but PDmil just didn't like that particular order.  She felt that "son" needed to come first.  I and the kids became invisible to her....even after all we had done.

As you can imagine, holidays have largely been about PDmil and not the holiday itself.  Why must it be about her?  Shouldn't it be about Thanksgiving or Xmas?  If we host Thanksgiving for example, why must she bring over stuff she has cooked up without asking?  DOn't even get me started about where she sat at the table....of course she would want to sit next to DH.  Nope.  I fixed that with table name cards.  She had this horrible way of heaping more food onto DH's plate....and yeah, DH is in his 50s and overweight.  Please.  But she wanted him to eat MORE because clearly he wasn't eating enough. 

At Xmas she would try the same thing....bringing something over that she made that clearly didn't go with what I had made....mind you at both these holidays she either sits there not participating in anything OR she exclusively talks with DH NOT IN ENGLISH!  In. The. Home. I. Share. With. My. Husband. and. Kids.   :evil2:  No more of that!!!  Highly disrespectful.

Thank fully the last few years we have gotten out of hosting for many reasons....weather (thank you!), PDmil's health ( :yahoo:), and being out of town. 

Like your father, my PDmil doesn't deserve to partake in these holiday celebrations because of her mood she exhibits with her presence.  It is such a major downer.  DH also has to be the taxi driver and doesn't get to enjoy his alcohol.  Who wants to go out in the rain or snow after that in the dark?  She could take an Uber or Lyft...but NO....that wouldn't work. 

Like the others have mentioned, do what you want to do and offer what you think is reasonable....and NO is also reasonable to all of it.  It is amazing how lopsided things get...especially when other siblings are involved.  And not only that, but the damaging Hallmark notion that we have to gather with extended family?  It is r.i.d.c.u.l.o.u.s.  -- especially with those like ours that behave badly?  They get a reward for behaving this way -- a nice meal and festive environment?  Nope.  Not in my book anymore.  I'll stick to just DH and the kids, thank you.  PDmil can figure out her own arrangements but she ain't gracing my dinner table anymore.

Sounds very similar.

My MIL comes over xmas day as well - has done for years. Now she has her moments but 99% of the time shes fine. She sits there xmas day and causes no bother for anyone. Not like my Dad!

I do have to be VERY careful not to let any of this out of the bag i.e. that MIL is there and hes not. Of course, she behaves and he doesn't but I can't really tell him that. If I did, he'd look at me as if I was mad and tell me he has no idea what hes done wrong. Hes like that - forgets/sweeps things under the carpet he wants to avoid talking about.

Quote from: Hazy111 on September 17, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Quote from: p123

If I just said no, honestly, he'd go on and on and on for months. If I say "sorry wife working" it'll last a few days.

You can't stop him from going on but you certainly don't have to listen. If he starts up interrupt him and say we've already discussed this. If he continues say change the subject dad or I'll have to hang up and then do it.  If he REALLY won't quit bringing up a given topic you can hit him back with, gee dad, you really can't remember all the times I've answered this question already? Maybe you need to go into a home.  :evil2:

Same with when he tells you what to do or tells your wife to take a day off. You can't change him but you can change your responses to him.

Quote from: p123 on September 17, 2019, 11:11:16 AM

Quote from: Hazy111 on September 17, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

I am worried about Thanksgiving and Christmas too.  My father isn't rude to anyone but he does talk about a lot of inappropriate things...mainly his poop.  :wacko:  And I am so fed up with being the chauffeur.  Sometimes I can get one of my kids to pick him up but it is still a lot of work when you are hosting and also in charge of getting them back home.  It is just too much work having him over.  I know he likes to come over but now he mostly stares off into space or sleeps so what is the point?  Especially for all the work it is to get him there.  But then I would feel bad if we didn't bring him over yet when I do I resent every single second of it.

Last year he didn't mention he can no longer take himself to the bathroom.  I got to miss everyone opening stockings because I had to take him.  That is where I draw the  line.

Quote from: Fiasco on September 17, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
...You can’t stop him from going on but you certainly don’t have to listen. If he starts up interrupt him and say we’ve already discussed this. If he continues say change the subject dad or I’ll have to hang up and then do it.  If he REALLY won’t quit bringing up a given topic you can hit him back with, gee dad, you really can’t remember all the times I’ve answered this question already? Maybe you need to go into a home.  :evil2:

Same with when he tells you what to do or tells your wife to take a day off. You can’t change him but you can change your responses to him.

:yeahthat:

Absolutely.  If, after you say "That [him coming over for Christmas] won't work.  You'll have to make other plans", he keeps insisting or asking "Why?" you say "Dad, I've already told you that won't work for us.  I don't want to discuss it anymore."  Then, if he ignores and continues to persist, you say "Gotta go.  I'll talk to you later."  Then hang up.

Boundaries are all about what is "his" stuff and what is "your" stuff.  "Your" stuff is stuff that you are in charge of.  And you are in charge of who you invite for Xmas.  It's all about adjusting your mindset to taking the adult stance.  Your dad tries to keep you in "child mode" by dictating what your response should be.  In reading over your posts on this thread, he appears to do that frequently. 

As Fiasco says, you don't have control over his responses, but you have control over yours.  Take the reins and be assertive.  You can't worry about hurting his feelings here.  His feelings are going to get hurt no matter what you do, short of complying with his requests 100%.  Set a boundary-- e.g., he'll have to make other plans at Xmas.  Then provide a consequence if he tramples that boundary.  So if he ignores what you are telling him, that his coming to your house won't work, you give him a consequence, such as shutting down the conversation and letting him have his tantrum by himself.

Boundary setting is difficult, but necessary, if you want to carve out a life for yourself while still engaging with a PD.  The key is following through and not letting the situation sink back into what it was before-- your dad dictating the parameters, calling the shots and having everyone around him jump through hoops.  He will likely continue to try to do so, but you do have some power here in refusing to comply with his requests. 

I agree - you're too soft with your dad, and really need to shore up your boundaries.

It doesn't matter what your dad *wants* or thinks he's entitled to - if he expects you to pick him up at 9, but noon works better for you, that's what you offer, no matter what he says.  :yes:

"Dad, I can pick you up at noon.  No, 9AM doesn't work for me.   It's noon or nothing.  Your choice."  :ninja:

If he chooses to stay home - fine.  If he chooses to be picked up at noon, but does nothing but complain about it, don't even let him in your car.  State, "Obviously, this is a bad idea." - and *leave.*  :ninja:

Hospitals?  It doesn't matter what time he wants you - show up when the time works for YOU.  If he complains - leave.  :ninja:

And you don't even have to visit him.  Hell, Didi was in the hospital about 20 or more times, in the last year of her life, and I didn't go once. 

I only went to visit Ray for 5 minutes, and that was just to drop off his teeth and leave.  If he hadn't needed his teeth, I wouldn't have gone.  :roll:

Just because he's in a hospital, doesn't mean your life goes on stand-by.  Your life goes on, as usual - and if you can't or won't make time to visit your dad, there's nothing wrong with that.

You can't control your dad - but you can control YOU.  You can stop JADEing (no reasons other than, "This is what's happening, and when..."    :ninja:) and visiting, stopping over, or bringing him to yours when the time is convenient for YOU - and if that happens to be never, it is what it is.   :yes:

It doesn't matter if your dad gets all butt-hurt.  He's going to be all butt-hurt, unless he gets his way, so take his emotions *out* of it, and stick to *facts* and things you can control - like when you visit, how long you visit, or when he comes over to yours, and for how long.  YOU dictate that - not your dad, and if he doesn't like it, he can stay home, or find somebody else to see to his needs at his house.  :yes:

Your dad isn't going to like your boundaries - too bad.  He doesn't get a say, and he doesn't get to run roughshod over you and yours by trying to control situations, and telling you and yours what you SHOULD be doing, or how you SHOULD be spending (or not) your money.

Explain nothing about work - only that you can come at X time, and stay for X amount of time.

If he doesn't like it - too bad.  "Dad, that's all I can do, and if you don't like it, I can always stay home, and you can figure out something else."  :ninja:

That's all it takes - putting your foot down and opening your mouth.   :yes:

And *keep* opening it state (and DO) your boundaries.   :yes:

:hug:

Quote from: lkdrymom on September 17, 2019, 04:03:38 PM

Quote from: p123 on September 17, 2019, 11:11:16 AM

Quote from: Hazy111 on September 17, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

Ha ha - he makes things up so often to get admitted I'd never know its the BIG ONE. lol

Thanks all - yes I know I need to be tougher and not give is so much.
Its just easier to lie and not upset him at the moment. I just don't have the strength for the inevitable fight.

Yes I understand what you're all saying. If I said even ONE of those things to him he would escalate it to fight against it. Whatever it takes he would do it. If I EVER told him tough and left the house- he'd get himself admitted to hospital next day.

Yes I know maybe its time to fight through this.....

"Butt-hurt" never heard that before. Obviously, Im from the UK. If someone said to me they were "Butt hurt" I think, without being too rude here, that it meant something had been done involving their butt  :angel:

Quote from: p123 on September 18, 2019, 03:24:08 AM

Quote from: lkdrymom on September 17, 2019, 04:03:38 PM

Quote from: p123 on September 17, 2019, 11:11:16 AM

Quote from: Hazy111 on September 17, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

Ha ha - he makes things up so often to get admitted I'd never know its the BIG ONE. lol

I said the same thing about my father....always saying he is dying...well one of these days he will be right...but until then I can't be in 'fire drill mode' jumping every time he claims to be dying.  He brought this on himself. Cried wolf too many times.  Wasted my time too many times.  And if I miss the one time he is right, I can live with that as I jumped so many times for his false alarms.  Not my fault he used up all his chances on BS.

Think of it this way....why are his feelings more important that yours, your wife's or your kids?

Quote from: p123 on September 18, 2019, 03:29:42 AM
Thanks all - yes I know I need to be tougher and not give is so much.
Its just easier to lie and not upset him at the moment. I just don't have the strength for the inevitable fight.

Yes I understand what you're all saying. If I said even ONE of those things to him he would escalate it to fight against it. Whatever it takes he would do it. If I EVER told him tough and left the house- he'd get himself admitted to hospital next day.

Yes I know maybe its time to fight through this.....

Your father is abusive and is acting like a bully.  He's gotten away with it because he's not gotten much resistance.  Yes, the "go-along-to-get-along" strategy is an easy path, but the problem with that is nothing ever changes.   

There is no "convenient" time to face this reality.  It's difficult.  Confronting him with boundaries will very likely result in conflict, but you don't have to be a part of his raging or tantrums.  Let him have those by himself. 

What do you do with a child that's pitching a tantrum?  Give in?  Let him have his way?  That teaches him that anytime he wants something, he just raises a ruckus and he'll get what he wants.  It's an intimidation tactic and it prompts the F in FOG.  Your dad is that child that wants to instill fear in those around him.  It appears he's pretty adept at that game. 

Time to provide consequences for that abusive and bullying behavior.  The Toolbox on this website is a great place to start with "what to do" and "what not to do".  And we're here for you, to help you come through that FOG.   :yes:

Quote from: lkdrymom on September 18, 2019, 06:03:58 AM

Quote from: p123 on September 18, 2019, 03:24:08 AM

Quote from: lkdrymom on September 17, 2019, 04:03:38 PM

Quote from: p123 on September 17, 2019, 11:11:16 AM

Quote from: Hazy111 on September 17, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Ahh the guilt which they project, which they never seem to suffer from. If you think youre worrying about it, hes already planning it!!!

I remember my Dad saying in August " I dont suppose ill see you again before Xmas" . Hes already planning Xmas! So the assumption is i will see him before Xmas as well. When i did see him, the parting line would be, "Ohh it was so good to see you,, THEN THE KILLER GUILT TRIP , dont leave it so long next time, will you" I had to drive half way across the country at Xmas and he didnt give  F*** about me. 

Xmas before last he was in hospital and he didnt even get a Xmas meal! He made up for it by planning his own birthday party in March . I remember him phoning me on my birthday to remind me about his party, No he didnt wish me happy birthday and no i didnt go to his.

OMG. Yes. I bet he is. His favourite saying if for whatever reason I tell him I can't come so won't see him for possibly 7 days is "oh well keep in touch" as if I'm going around the world for a year. That REALLY annoys me.

I remember a few years ago he was in hospital over xmas. My son was about 5 at the time. Hospital was 35 miles away from us. Anyway, he demanded pretty much that I be there at 10am no later to see him.

I told him thats going to be tough, I'll be there lunchtime when son has opened all his presents. I'll never ever forget how he said "Well, there'll be other xmases for that sort of thing. Everyone needs to understand how it works. I don't want to be here so you'll have to make a big effort".

Not quite sure how he expected a 5 year old to "understand" to be honest. Other xmases? This was 10 years ago and hes tried to make every single one about him ever since.

I didn't go at 10am and he was livid. Kept on and on and on. I almost walked out of the hospital but managed to bite my tongue and ignore him. By the time I left I was steaming mad, but glad I'd not given in to him.

I dread the times hes in hospital now. He thinks he can click his fingers and get visitors. He expects me and everyone else to visit every evening hes in hospital. Its not possible with childcare mostly. He once said - "tell you're wife the kids are her problem. I want a visit from you so you need to put her in her place. If she needs to cancel work then she'll have to do that". So I'd say no I can't come that night, he'd say "yes you can make an effort" so I ignored him and didnt go. Next night I visited he'd spend 20 mins of the hour wanting to know why I hadn't come (and I ignored him), then rinse and repeat  - 10 mins again telling me he wants a "big effort" tomorrow night.

Bit rich considering my wifes a community nurse and he tends to milk this service for what its worth. Can imagine his face if he didn't get a visit because the nurse in question had decided to take the day off at short notice.

Why do you HAVE to visit him in the hospital? My father goes to the hospital so often I stopped going YEARS ago.   Until it is "The Big One", there is not point.  I only visit if they are taking him to rehab and he needs clothing.  I wait until he gets to rehab then I pack him a bag.

Ha ha - he makes things up so often to get admitted I'd never know its the BIG ONE. lol

I said the same thing about my father....always saying he is dying...well one of these days he will be right...but until then I can't be in 'fire drill mode' jumping every time he claims to be dying.  He brought this on himself. Cried wolf too many times.  Wasted my time too many times.  And if I miss the one time he is right, I can live with that as I jumped so many times for his false alarms.  Not my fault he used up all his chances on BS.

EXACTLY same as me. I've always said Im going to find him dead in his chair one day and everyone inc emergency services are going to say "oops he was ill this time!"

Quote from: lkdrymom on September 18, 2019, 06:05:29 AM
Think of it this way....why are his feelings more important that yours, your wife's or your kids?

Took me years to realise but they're not. Now OK I know I need to change but I try not to upset him if I can but dont put him first

Oh Xmas is so stressful - there are hordes of people who feel they have to visit family or have family over and they simply do not want to do it! Usually one person ends up keeping the peace for everyone and all the advertising shows happy families which just makes it worse.
Love to you all xx

Quote from: illogical on September 18, 2019, 06:19:02 AM

Quote from: p123 on September 18, 2019, 03:29:42 AM
Thanks all - yes I know I need to be tougher and not give is so much.
Its just easier to lie and not upset him at the moment. I just don't have the strength for the inevitable fight.

Yes I understand what you're all saying. If I said even ONE of those things to him he would escalate it to fight against it. Whatever it takes he would do it. If I EVER told him tough and left the house- he'd get himself admitted to hospital next day.

Yes I know maybe its time to fight through this.....

Your father is abusive and is acting like a bully.  He's gotten away with it because he's not gotten much resistance.  Yes, the "go-along-to-get-along" strategy is an easy path, but the problem with that is nothing ever changes.   

There is no "convenient" time to face this reality.  It's difficult.  Confronting him with boundaries will very likely result in conflict, but you don't have to be a part of his raging or tantrums.  Let him have those by himself. 

What do you do with a child that's pitching a tantrum?  Give in?  Let him have his way?  That teaches him that anytime he wants something, he just raises a ruckus and he'll get what he wants.  It's an intimidation tactic and it prompts the F in FOG.  Your dad is that child that wants to instill fear in those around him.  It appears he's pretty adept at that game. 

Time to provide consequences for that abusive and bullying behavior.  The Toolbox on this website is a great place to start with "what to do" and "what not to do".  And we're here for you, to help you come through that FOG.   :yes:

Oh yes he is a bully. As hes got older I've realised that.

I guess when he was younger he didn't "need" others as much but I can see the signs there. As hes got older and decided he "needs" things then hes shown his true colours.

And hes VERY VERY good at getting what he wants. He seems to have spent a lifetime getting others to do things for him.

Also, the way he looks at life, his values etc I now realise are completely different to mine. Yet, in his head, his values rule - and everyone has to think the same. His ideas on money, relationships,kids etc. (Just think of the most racist, homophobic, sexist, and small minded person you can think of and you'd be close to my Dad). He honestly thinks everyone else is crazy and hes right.

The number of times hes called me "mad" or "amazed I did this" or "cant believe you did this" for things that are perfectly normal.

Ah I blew it tonight. See my other post about tonights visit.

As I was leaving he dropped in "so when is your wife going to phone to wish me happy birthday?" I was just in shock after all hes done. Another attempt to show everyone he has the power.

I SHOULD have told him shes not going to ring you because she can't stand you any more, and she has a very good point. And don't you remember how badly you've treated us over the last few years? BUT I didn't

Still can't get over that line of telling him the truth and being blunt and upsetting him unnecessarily. I fear this is going to blow up soon though - hes getting worse.

I caught what happened in your other thread.  If he brings it up again, and says she didn't call, say only, "That's right.  She's busy." - and change the subject.    :ninja:

You know why he acts like everything is just hunky-dory?  Because in his mind, he's done *nothing wrong.*  He sees himself as Mr. Wonderful, and he just "speaks his mind" - and justifies it  by being an old man, who has earned the right.  :roll:

You're never going to be able to reason with him - and yes, he IS going to get worse - and keep getting worse until he's got you over there, 24/7, playing nursemaid.  :aaauuugh:

If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, it might be time to treat yourself to a prezzie.  Amazon has it in various formats, and you'll find out that boundaries are a normal, natural part of everyday life - you weren't taught that lesson, because your father has NO boundaries.

He just wants what he wants when he wants it - but you have the *ability* to use the normal, natural and reasonable boundary, "I can't do that.  It'll have to wait until next week, or you can figure out something else."  :ninja:

You are *not* being mean to your dad by using boundaries.  You use them in polite society, every day - and you use them at home, too, with your FOC.  Even something as simple as saying, "No hon, I really don't feel like going out tonight..." is a *boundary.*  :)

And chances are your wife is very understanding, and doesn't act like your dad.  (Or you wouldn't be married to her!)  :doh:

Your dad is going to treat boundaries like the worst thing on the face of the earth - that's okay.  Let him, but make sure you *stick to your boundaries.*  If you say no to doing something, or going somewhere, make sure that is set in stone - and if he winds up in the hospital as a way to try to *punish you*, don't visit.   :ninja:

He doesn't get *rewarded* for bad behavior, and he can sit in the hospital, by himself, until he takes a cab home.  (Do NOT pick him up.  He got there?  He can find his own way home.)  :yes:

Once you read  up on boundaries, I think it will might make it easier to put your *needs and wants* FIRST - there's nothing wrong with that and you *are* the star of your own show - not a bit-player in your dad's.

Your dad will probably start pushing back - don't give in.  If you said, "I can't come over this week..." and he's whining about food, turn it around on him:  "Dad. I'm not coming this week - but if you were in Assisted Living, this wouldn't even be an issue.  You'd have 3 square meals a day."  :ninja:

If you're lucky, he'll hang up on you and give you the Silent Treat - and have your brother buy his groceries.  8-)

Any time he starts whining, try to bring Assisted Living into the conversation.

His knees?  "At Assisted Living, they have doctors on the staff.  You wouldn't even have to wait that long to see one."  :ninja:

His trouble getting around?  "In Assisted Living, they have all sorts of mobility devices, and people to help you."  :ninja:

You get the idea - and yes, he'll hate it, but he can't stay at his, indefinitely, without more help than you alone can provide - but you're the only person he'll accept help from, while chastising you that your brother is FAR too busy, holding up the bar.  :violin:

You can't do the work of a team and you can't *cover* for your dad.  It's in your best interest - and your dad's - to be as hands-off as possible, letting your dad fail, so outsiders can intervene on his behalf and get him to a *safe* environment.  :yes:

And that means visiting as little as possible, being useless, being "busy" - and hanging up once he starts raging or getting angry.  You're not doing any of this to make him angry - his anger is a natural result of a lifetime spent getting what he wants, and having others do for him.

You're no longer the frightened child, afraid of daddy's wrath as he towers over you, while you cower in a corner.  You're an *adult* - and probably taller than him.  The all-powerful ADULT is now nothing more than an *old man* and can't do anything to you but use nasty, angry words.  :yes:

He can't ground you.  He can't take your car keys.  He can't send you to bed without supper.  He can't take your allowance, confiscate your phone or revoke your computer or TV privileges!  There is *nothing* he can do but YELL and try to make you feel bad.

Your dad feels his control over you may be slipping - be prepared for him try just about anything, to see if it sticks - including being fake-nice about your wife, and asking if she's going to call him.  It's gaslighting, pure and simple, but he'll try just about anything, because he's getting desperate and wants things the way they were.  :no:

Stick to YOUR boundaries in all situations.  Think about what you *want* to do - not what you *could* do, but if you really WANT to help him out, or run errands, or go shopping, or visit him.

It's okay to say, "I don't want to do anything for him!"   :yes:

That's a BOUNDARY.  And you can make it stick by telling him no, you can't, he'll have to figure out something else.  :ninja:

You CAN do this, P123.   :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Yeah, he'll be all butthurt (overly annoyed or bothered by a perceived insult; needlessly offended - sorry for the undefined Americanism!  :bigwink:), but that is NOT your problem.  :yes:

:hug:

Boundaries, yup, I'll second that.

Imagine you have a neighbor, and this neighbor is just awful about stomping all through your garden because you've got no fence. All times of the day, there he is stepping on the flowers! You talk to him, but the behavior doesn't change.

So you build a nice wall for your garden. And there he is on the other side screaming "hey mate! This wall's in my way! Tear it down will you?" but you just sit in your garden, enjoying the flowers and watching your children play. After a while, you don't even hear him anymore because the garden is just so peaceful now.

We've got a saying where I'm from. Good fences make good neighbors. Your boundaries will allow you to get your life back, because your dad is under the impression that he owns you. But, just like the angry neighbor, he's not going to like it. But you do this for yourself, for your family.

How will you feel in ten years if you look back and all you remember of your children's growing up years is how much of a pain your dad was? Will you associate every vacation, every holiday, every birthday not worth the joy of the occasion but rather with the hassle of your dad?

You already dread Christmas because of him. If you don't take it back, no one will do it for you, and he certainly won't. I highly advise you not to let him ruin another holiday or special occasion. You can't get this time with your family back, once it's gone that's it.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on September 18, 2019, 11:02:01 PM
I caught what happened in your other thread.  If he brings it up again, and says she didn't call, say only, "That's right.  She's busy." - and change the subject.    :ninja:

You know why he acts like everything is just hunky-dory?  Because in his mind, he's done *nothing wrong.*  He sees himself as Mr. Wonderful, and he just "speaks his mind" - and justifies it  by being an old man, who has earned the right.  :roll:

You're never going to be able to reason with him - and yes, he IS going to get worse - and keep getting worse until he's got you over there, 24/7, playing nursemaid.  :aaauuugh:

If you haven't read the book, "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend, it might be time to treat yourself to a prezzie.  Amazon has it in various formats, and you'll find out that boundaries are a normal, natural part of everyday life - you weren't taught that lesson, because your father has NO boundaries.

He just wants what he wants when he wants it - but you have the *ability* to use the normal, natural and reasonable boundary, "I can't do that.  It'll have to wait until next week, or you can figure out something else."  :ninja:

You are *not* being mean to your dad by using boundaries.  You use them in polite society, every day - and you use them at home, too, with your FOC.  Even something as simple as saying, "No hon, I really don't feel like going out tonight..." is a *boundary.*  :)

And chances are your wife is very understanding, and doesn't act like your dad.  (Or you wouldn't be married to her!)  :doh:

Your dad is going to treat boundaries like the worst thing on the face of the earth - that's okay.  Let him, but make sure you *stick to your boundaries.*  If you say no to doing something, or going somewhere, make sure that is set in stone - and if he winds up in the hospital as a way to try to *punish you*, don't visit.   :ninja:

He doesn't get *rewarded* for bad behavior, and he can sit in the hospital, by himself, until he takes a cab home.  (Do NOT pick him up.  He got there?  He can find his own way home.)  :yes:

Once you read  up on boundaries, I think it will might make it easier to put your *needs and wants* FIRST - there's nothing wrong with that and you *are* the star of your own show - not a bit-player in your dad's.

Your dad will probably start pushing back - don't give in.  If you said, "I can't come over this week..." and he's whining about food, turn it around on him:  "Dad. I'm not coming this week - but if you were in Assisted Living, this wouldn't even be an issue.  You'd have 3 square meals a day."  :ninja:

If you're lucky, he'll hang up on you and give you the Silent Treat - and have your brother buy his groceries.  8-)

Any time he starts whining, try to bring Assisted Living into the conversation.

His knees?  "At Assisted Living, they have doctors on the staff.  You wouldn't even have to wait that long to see one."  :ninja:

His trouble getting around?  "In Assisted Living, they have all sorts of mobility devices, and people to help you."  :ninja:

You get the idea - and yes, he'll hate it, but he can't stay at his, indefinitely, without more help than you alone can provide - but you're the only person he'll accept help from, while chastising you that your brother is FAR too busy, holding up the bar.  :violin:

You can't do the work of a team and you can't *cover* for your dad.  It's in your best interest - and your dad's - to be as hands-off as possible, letting your dad fail, so outsiders can intervene on his behalf and get him to a *safe* environment.  :yes:

And that means visiting as little as possible, being useless, being "busy" - and hanging up once he starts raging or getting angry.  You're not doing any of this to make him angry - his anger is a natural result of a lifetime spent getting what he wants, and having others do for him.

You're no longer the frightened child, afraid of daddy's wrath as he towers over you, while you cower in a corner.  You're an *adult* - and probably taller than him.  The all-powerful ADULT is now nothing more than an *old man* and can't do anything to you but use nasty, angry words.  :yes:

He can't ground you.  He can't take your car keys.  He can't send you to bed without supper.  He can't take your allowance, confiscate your phone or revoke your computer or TV privileges!  There is *nothing* he can do but YELL and try to make you feel bad.

Your dad feels his control over you may be slipping - be prepared for him try just about anything, to see if it sticks - including being fake-nice about your wife, and asking if she's going to call him.  It's gaslighting, pure and simple, but he'll try just about anything, because he's getting desperate and wants things the way they were.  :no:

Stick to YOUR boundaries in all situations.  Think about what you *want* to do - not what you *could* do, but if you really WANT to help him out, or run errands, or go shopping, or visit him.

It's okay to say, "I don't want to do anything for him!"   :yes:

That's a BOUNDARY.  And you can make it stick by telling him no, you can't, he'll have to figure out something else.  :ninja:

You CAN do this, P123.   :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Yeah, he'll be all butthurt (overly annoyed or bothered by a perceived insult; needlessly offended - sorry for the undefined Americanism!  :bigwink:), but that is NOT your problem.  :yes:

:hug:

Thanks once again WI. I hope I'm getting there.....
One thing I am impressed with is his dedication to get what he wants. Very impressive in the way he sticks to his task, tries something else to get the result.

One thing  - he NEVER argues with me. Its impossible to start an argument with him too. Hes clever. He NEVER puts the phone down or gives me the silent treatment. I dream of the day I can go without speaking for a period of time.

I guess it doesnt work for him. If hes not speaking he can't get what he wants....

Andez - No hes not coming xmas day. I had such a nice day last year - the first for a long time without him. Not happening. Ever. Can guarantee he'll say "oh well I'll be all alone xmas day then". Not working - Im going to ignore it.

p.s. WI - thats my plan for today. Slip the term BUTTHURT into a conversation here at work lol. I like the phrase a lot :-) (Like I said, it could be mistrued here in the uk I think)

"In healthy families parents take responsibility for their childrens emotional health. In narcissistic families its the children who are responsible for their parents emotional health"

You were programmed very early on . But you are now an adult . Good luck with whatever you attempt. But remember he cant/wont change.

Quote from: Hazy111 on September 19, 2019, 10:20:17 AM
"In healthy families parents take responsibility for their childrens emotional health. In narcissistic families its the children who are responsible for their parents emotional health"

You were programmed very early on . But you are now an adult . Good luck with whatever you attempt. But remember he cant/wont change.

Yeh rings true... Wish me luck!

Well, Dad is still Butthurt!

You may have seen my other thread about him moaning my wife didn't phone him on his birthday and how he said "I only see her once a year on xmas day!".

This is not going to be good. I'm not inviting him xmas day AT ALL. Im telling him wife is working....

I plan to invite him Boxing Day but hope he'll agree to go somewhere for lunch like a restaurant. Wife won't be there anyway on Boxing Day - she may well be working, even if shes not, she plans to go out shopping with her mum to avoid him. Fair enough.

Wish me luck!

Perhaps your brother could have your dad at his house all Christmas day! Your dad has plenty of time between now and then to use the same tactic of constantly mentioning the day to brother so he gets an invitation. 

Setting boundaries is very difficult. We've been used to going along with them so they don't get mad at us. Start small but stay firm. It's sort of like dealing with toddler children. These personality disordered adults want what they want, just like children do.

I never miss the opportunity to mention to my mom that I've started new holiday traditions now that my kids are grown. Gone are the days of the same old thing. She isn't coming to my house and park herself on my sofa expecting to be waited on, then cry and sniffle when people don't pay her enough attention. I'm enforcing these changes to her dismay, we aren't going back to how it was. Now, I may see her for coffee or lunch before the holiday but she won't be coming over anymore. She burned that bridge, sad for her but that's how it goes.

I've lost the tv commercial image of the large happy family gathering around the dining room table. I tried that for over 25 years and my mom turned every gathering into something toxic with her whining and drama. I'm glad to be done with it. She doesn't know I still have those gatherings but they are much smaller and only include my important people who are interested in happy, loving relationships. Such a relief and makes preparing for a holiday joyful again! I used to dread it knowing how my mom would turn it to drama and stress. I tried so hard to make all the holidays festive for my kids by including her and others. Turns out they remember the drama and don't think their grandma liked them very much. How's that for the complete opposite of what I was trying to achieve?  :sad2:

By reading the stories others share here and soaking up all the replies you've received, hopefully you might find it a bit easier to set boundaries.  Remember all of us cheering you on to protect yourself and protect your family. Your dad will move on to someone else once you start setting boundaries and saying no.

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on September 26, 2019, 09:02:52 AM
Perhaps your brother could have your dad at his house all Christmas day! Your dad has plenty of time between now and then to use the same tactic of constantly mentioning the day to brother so he gets an invitation. 

Setting boundaries is very difficult. We've been used to going along with them so they don't get mad at us. Start small but stay firm. It's sort of like dealing with toddler children. These personality disordered adults want what they want, just like children do.

I never miss the opportunity to mention to my mom that I've started new holiday traditions now that my kids are grown. Gone are the days of the same old thing. She isn't coming to my house and park herself on my sofa expecting to be waited on, then cry and sniffle when people don't pay her enough attention. I'm enforcing these changes to her dismay, we aren't going back to how it was. Now, I may see her for coffee or lunch before the holiday but she won't be coming over anymore. She burned that bridge, sad for her but that's how it goes.

I've lost the tv commercial image of the large happy family gathering around the dining room table. I tried that for over 25 years and my mom turned every gathering into something toxic with her whining and drama. I'm glad to be done with it. She doesn't know I still have those gatherings but they are much smaller and only include my important people who are interested in happy, loving relationships. Such a relief and makes preparing for a holiday joyful again! I used to dread it knowing how my mom would turn it to drama and stress. I tried so hard to make all the holidays festive for my kids by including her and others. Turns out they remember the drama and don't think their grandma liked them very much. How's that for the complete opposite of what I was trying to achieve?  :sad2:

By reading the stories others share here and soaking up all the replies you've received, hopefully you might find it a bit easier to set boundaries.  Remember all of us cheering you on to protect yourself and protect your family. Your dad will move on to someone else once you start setting boundaries and saying no.

Yes last year he went to my brothers - and moaned about it. He OK with me telling him I couldnt do xmas day - I guess he knew brother was lined up.

But then he moaned that brother was planning to go to the pub for an hour (he'd arranged with friends) and Dad did not want to go. His reason - in his opinion, its wrong to go to the pub on xmas day.... Seriously just because you don't want to go.

I kept out of it and had a great xmas day. No driving around half the day, then when home worrying about what hes going to say or do.

Hes started now "So what time are you picking me up xmas day?" And "Its only fair I come to you this year since I went to your brothers last year".

Much as I'm tempted to say "Look I'm not doing it any more, after the way you've behaved previous years, and how you've behaved recently" but I probably won't. Yes I know. Easier to use my wifes work shifts as an excuse (shes a nurse).

Can guarantee hes not going to like it. And she'll get the blame too which is wearing pretty thin to be honest. Shes not the most forgiving but I'd say its 99% his fault here and, after all, its her FIL, she is not obliged to like him or even have him in her life after all.

Thing is I don't think he even enjoys coming to us on xmas day (or even boxing day) - its hectic. I think he only does it because part of him says that, one of his sons "should" have him there xmas day. And of course, he likes that hes made to feel more important than anyone else.

Last year he came Boxing Day, my wife WAS working that day, my daugher was out with her gran, my teenage son was there but hey teenager! I drove 20 odd miles to collect him, 20 miles back home, we ate food just the two of us, sat around for an hour, then I repeated the journey. Pointless.

I'm going to invite him Boxing Day to a local restaurant but I'm not confident. That won't pass the test as "invited over for xmas by his son".

Quote from: p123 on October 02, 2019, 07:17:36 AM
She's not the most forgiving but I'd say its 99% his fault here and, after all, its her FIL, she is not obliged to like him or even have him in her life after all.

Thing is I don't think he even enjoys coming to us on xmas day (or even boxing day) - its hectic. I think he only does it because part of him says that, one of his sons "should" have him there xmas day. And of course, he likes that hes made to feel more important than anyone else.

The first part...I wish my DH would see how I feel about PDmil through your eyes.  Your wife is incredibly lucky to be able to decide how her FIL should be included in her life.

And the second part...same dynamic with PDmil.  It is a very robotic behavior.   The Holidays seem to be filled with all sorts of "shoulds" that have been made up over the years that people believe "should" be enforced.  I find it ridiculous and I would personally like to sue Hallmark. 

PDs don't care about Holidays; they only care about being present and fussed over = attention.  PDs have no idea how to celebrate Holidays.

In the past, when PDmil has been unable to celebrate with us and offloaded to DH's sister, PDmil pouts or refuses to attend.  Yes, skips being with her own daughter...because she doesn't like her daughter's inlaws and because DH's sister doesn't spend her whole time chatting with her mother!  There are other people at the Holiday invite....our family doesn't do big gatherings and that is what PDmil likes.  But 3 out of the 4 of us don't like her being there.  DH just doesn't get it.   he's like: but, she shouldn't be alone that day!  The thing is though that when we comes over to our house, the three of us that don't want her there and feel isolated because PDmil hogs DH all to herself.  He just doesn't get it.

Quote from: Pepin on October 02, 2019, 10:11:21 AM

Quote from: p123 on October 02, 2019, 07:17:36 AM
She's not the most forgiving but I'd say its 99% his fault here and, after all, its her FIL, she is not obliged to like him or even have him in her life after all.

Thing is I don't think he even enjoys coming to us on xmas day (or even boxing day) - its hectic. I think he only does it because part of him says that, one of his sons "should" have him there xmas day. And of course, he likes that hes made to feel more important than anyone else.

The first part...I wish my DH would see how I feel about PDmil through your eyes.  Your wife is incredibly lucky to be able to decide how her FIL should be included in her life.

And the second part...same dynamic with PDmil.  It is a very robotic behavior.   The Holidays seem to be filled with all sorts of "shoulds" that have been made up over the years that people believe "should" be enforced.  I find it ridiculous and I would personally like to sue Hallmark. 

PDs don't care about Holidays; they only care about being present and fussed over = attention.  PDs have no idea how to celebrate Holidays.

In the past, when PDmil has been unable to celebrate with us and offloaded to DH's sister, PDmil pouts or refuses to attend.  Yes, skips being with her own daughter...because she doesn't like her daughter's inlaws and because DH's sister doesn't spend her whole time chatting with her mother!  There are other people at the Holiday invite....our family doesn't do big gatherings and that is what PDmil likes.  But 3 out of the 4 of us don't like her being there.  DH just doesn't get it.   he's like: but, she shouldn't be alone that day!  The thing is though that when we comes over to our house, the three of us that don't want her there and feel isolated because PDmil hogs DH all to herself.  He just doesn't get it.

Took me years though. I used to think about my wife "why can't you just put up with him for just one day". Then he got worse and worse.
My MIL (wife's mother) can be annoying too and shes had her moments. BUT it finally sunk in that Dad is in a different league.

So now I just think, hes my Dad, to a certain extent, unless I go NC, I've got to deal with him. My wife has no such obligation at all.

Last year, plan was he was going to come Boxing Day, wife was going to be there for a little while and then she planned to go out. Fair enough. BUT during the year, he treated her so badly she didnt want to see him and that was fine by me. So she didnt see him at all - and he proved it all by moaning and moaning she'd not bothered to stay to see him.

This year, if he comes boxing day, my wife is REALLY working. He won't like that I know now. I never understood though - she has no real relationship with him - hes just my Dad and shes polite and thats it. Always been like that. So why on earth he decides that she should be around I don't know....

Oh yes I'll get the "all on my own over xmas" blah blah blah. Woe is me. I have an answer "Its just one day, Dad". He was in hospital one year over xmas. He was happy about this strangely. He decreed that everyone had to visit him at 9am and stay the entire morning.

At the time, I lived 35 miles from the hospital, my son was probably about 5 or 6. So I said, look, I won't be there the morning, son will be opening his presents etc so theres no way I can be there at 9am. His answer "Well, he'll have to understand, won't he?" (Dad hes 5!) and anyway "there'll be other xmases and, after all, its just one day".

And his favourite line in the whole world that I get every week at least once (in response to me telling him that NO I wont cancel anything, let anyone else down etc is :-

"THEY'LL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND"

My father was in hospital for Christmas a few years ago. He wanted us to postpone everything until he got out, then told me off on the phone when I refused. Wanted us to postpone Christmas for him!

If I remember correctly, he didn't get a visit from us that day. 

I had a pd coworker whose mother had died that year and said if we put up any Christmas decorations in the office, it would be disrespectful. So she wanted us to not enjoy Christmas because her mother had died several months before and if she wasn't going to enjoy Christmas, then neither should we.

My own mother died on Christmas Day. An Unpd friend had no real understanding of why that day was hard for me. Or for anyone. He didn't get the whole anniversary of death thing. Of course he lacked empathy. At the two year mark, he basically told me to stop dwelling on it. It's been two years. We aren't friends now. I really only brought her up at that time of year because it was rough for me. He had no compassion or understanding of that. It was bizarre and a real lesson as to how the pd mind works. Without empathy, you'll never get emotional support from them, ever.

Christmas is a hard time for a lot of people anyway but mix the pd stuff in and it's way worse.

Quote from: Adrianna on October 02, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
My father was in hospital for Christmas a few years ago. He wanted us to postpone everything until he got out, then told me off on the phone when I refused. Wanted us to postpone Christmas for him!

If I remember correctly, he didn't get a visit from us that day. 

I had a pd coworker whose mother had died that year and said if we put up any Christmas decorations in the office, it would be disrespectful. So she wanted us to not enjoy Christmas because her mother had died several months before and if she wasn't going to enjoy Christmas, then neither should we.

My own mother died on Christmas Day. An Unpd friend had no real understanding of why that day was hard for me. Or for anyone. He didn't get the whole anniversary of death thing. Of course he lacked empathy. At the two year mark, he basically told me to stop dwelling on it. It's been two years. We aren't friends now. I really only brought her up at that time of year because it was rough for me. He had no compassion or understanding of that. It was bizarre and a real lesson as to how the pd mind works. Without empathy, you'll never get emotional support from them, ever.

Christmas is a hard time for a lot of people anyway but mix the pd stuff in and it's way worse.

WOW can imagine my dad doing that too....

The coworker thing is nuts too. How on earth can they expect everyone else to do that just because of their situation? Im guessing no-one else in the office knew her mother personally either?

Quote from: p123 on October 02, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
I never understood though - she has no real relationship with him - hes just my Dad and shes polite and thats it. Always been like that. So why on earth he decides that she should be around I don't know....

This brings me to tears and has been the most frustrating aspect of having PDmil in my life.  I have always been polite about her and have given DH his space to be with her -- yet I myself have no real relationship with her nor a desire to have one based on her behavior.

The thing is though is that DH thinks I should have a relationship with her.  He also thinks that our teens should have a relationship with her.  Because we don't and are not interested, he gets ruffled and round goes that cycle of resentment.  If he could just step back and let everything be -- we would be in a much better pace.  He wants us to see what he sees and it is just not possible.  Our teens and I were not there when PDmil was a younger woman; we are not her children nor were we parented by her.  She did not raise us.  We only know her for who she is today.  It is kind of difficult to imagine that she be any other way -- and I worry that DH is only viewing his mother through the eyes of a child. 

I can't stand it when he throws mini tantrums over our lack of relationship with her.

Yes, she is part of the family but why does she have to be so important compared to everyone else -- is the thing I just don't get.  She is the oldest in the family at the moment and a widow.  Does that mean that she has to be on a pedestal?  I am not sure that she feels that she is entitled to this patronizing but for whatever reason, DH sure thinks she does.  I just cannot figure out why he feels so strongly about the way she needs to be dealt with.  None of the other spouses of DH's siblings and their families bow down to PDmil either...yet our teens and I are required?  My husband is going to hit a wall when his mother passes... 

Quote from: p123 on October 02, 2019, 01:38:44 PM

Quote from: Adrianna on October 02, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
My father was in hospital for Christmas a few years ago. He wanted us to postpone everything until he got out, then told me off on the phone when I refused. Wanted us to postpone Christmas for him!

If I remember correctly, he didn't get a visit from us that day. 

I had a pd coworker whose mother had died that year and said if we put up any Christmas decorations in the office, it would be disrespectful. So she wanted us to not enjoy Christmas because her mother had died several months before and if she wasn't going to enjoy Christmas, then neither should we.

My own mother died on Christmas Day. An Unpd friend had no real understanding of why that day was hard for me. Or for anyone. He didn't get the whole anniversary of death thing. Of course he lacked empathy. At the two year mark, he basically told me to stop dwelling on it. It's been two years. We aren't friends now. I really only brought her up at that time of year because it was rough for me. He had no compassion or understanding of that. It was bizarre and a real lesson as to how the pd mind works. Without empathy, you'll never get emotional support from them, ever.

Christmas is a hard time for a lot of people anyway but mix the pd stuff in and it's way worse.

WOW can imagine my dad doing that too....

The coworker thing is nuts too. How on earth can they expect everyone else to do that just because of their situation? Im guessing no-one else in the office knew her mother personally either?

None of us in the office knew her mother. She was my first education about narcissism. She admitted to being selfish, we all had to walk on eggshells, and being around her was draining. Although I had it in my own family, it took this woman to open my eyes to the disorder.

The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you're not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Nana told me once I'm never allowed to divorce my husband because then she can't get him to do things for her. He does almost nothing for her now. She's always asking me about him, is he working, is he home today. It's truly bizarre. She has more of an interest in him than me (she used to show somewhat of an interest in me but not anymore) but I know it's her innate need to keep backup servants that's driving it. She sadly has no real concern for him either.

It's all about getting their needs met.

Quote from: Adrianna on October 05, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you're not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Wow, this is so true.  They just move down the supply chain, don't they?  At first it was me, as DH's spouse.  Since I have gone gray rock, PDmil moved onto our kids.  The kids (now teens) have been on to her for some time and don't want to play her dumb games.

So what does PDmil do then?  She goes back to the top and focuses on DH.  She knows that if she can get DH under her thumb, she can keep him away from his wife and children.   :barfy:

Quote from: Pepin on October 06, 2019, 09:58:05 PM

Quote from: Adrianna on October 05, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you're not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Wow, this is so true.  They just move down the supply chain, don't they?  At first it was me, as DH's spouse.  Since I have gone gray rock, PDmil moved onto our kids.  The kids (now teens) have been on to her for some time and don't want to play her dumb games.

So what does PDmil do then?  She goes back to the top and focuses on DH.  She knows that if she can get DH under her thumb, she can keep him away from his wife and children.   :barfy:

Oh yes, it's ALL about attention. I've studied narcissism extensively. Attention to them is like fuel. They need it to survive. It's food. We are food to them. Without it they wither. If nana isn't getting enough attention, she literally falls into narcissistic collapse. Can't get dressed, moving is an effort, staying in bed, severe depression, whining, breathing or speaking is a dramatic effort. It's truly something to witness.

In romantic relationships, it's why they more often than not cheat. They see nothing wrong with two partners. Two sources of supply are better than one. It's why they move on from a partner with such ease (aka discarding). They usually have another lined up.  A woman married to a narcissist is shocked that he moves on with such ease, but once you understand the disorder, you see she was nothing but a source of fuel to him, a tool to get attention.

They don't see us as people. We are things to them. Does someone miss their toaster when they replace it? No. They are focused on the new shiny toaster which is performing as it should. The old toaster is forgotten. We are like an appliance to them. Our function as this appliance is to provide attention. That's it.

Quote from: Adrianna on October 05, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you're not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

Nana told me once I'm never allowed to divorce my husband because then she can't get him to do things for her. He does almost nothing for her now. She's always asking me about him, is he working, is he home today. It's truly bizarre. She has more of an interest in him than me (she used to show somewhat of an interest in me but not anymore) but I know it's her innate need to keep backup servants that's driving it. She sadly has no real concern for him either.

It's all about getting their needs met.

OMG dad does this!!!! Im sure its because he wants to know if shes really busy or not.....

He also keeps asking for me wifes mobile no. Dont need it. But like you said its his backup.....
I dread to think what she'd say to him if he phoned her though. #worldwar3.

Quote from: Adrianna on October 07, 2019, 04:58:12 AM

Quote from: Pepin on October 06, 2019, 09:58:05 PM

Quote from: Adrianna on October 05, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
The reason why the pd parent wants the spouse of their child involved all comes down to one thing: possible source of narcissistic supply - aka attention.

If you're not able to provide it, they want a backup. They ALWAYS want a backup supply.

I see this with Dad. He gets into a right state if things dont go his way. Its scary to see sometimes.

Wow, this is so true.  They just move down the supply chain, don't they?  At first it was me, as DH's spouse.  Since I have gone gray rock, PDmil moved onto our kids.  The kids (now teens) have been on to her for some time and don't want to play her dumb games.

So what does PDmil do then?  She goes back to the top and focuses on DH.  She knows that if she can get DH under her thumb, she can keep him away from his wife and children.   :barfy:

Oh yes, it's ALL about attention. I've studied narcissism extensively. Attention to them is like fuel. They need it to survive. It's food. We are food to them. Without it they wither. If nana isn't getting enough attention, she literally falls into narcissistic collapse. Can't get dressed, moving is an effort, staying in bed, severe depression, whining, breathing or speaking is a dramatic effort. It's truly something to witness.

In romantic relationships, it's why they more often than not cheat. They see nothing wrong with two partners. Two sources of supply are better than one. It's why they move on from a partner with such ease (aka discarding). They usually have another lined up.  A woman married to a narcissist is shocked that he moves on with such ease, but once you understand the disorder, you see she was nothing but a source of fuel to him, a tool to get attention.

They don't see us as people. We are things to them. Does someone miss their toaster when they replace it? No. They are focused on the new shiny toaster which is performing as it should. The old toaster is forgotten. We are like an appliance to them. Our function as this appliance is to provide attention. That's it.

I am that toaster!  :tongue2:

What a flipping  good analogy!

It's exactly how my dad is with family and their spouses.

Exactly

Quote from: nanotech on October 09, 2019, 05:22:20 PM
I am that toaster!  :tongue2:

What a flipping  good analogy!

It's exactly how my dad is with family and their spouses.

Exactly

Funnily enough I've mentioned by brother in other threads..... Hes like that. Got three kids by two different partners. He seems to be with someone, have a kid, move on, forget about kid. Move on to next do the same. Hes just got married and done the same.

I bumped into one of his exs recently (hes got two kids with) and she said she'd moved locally, told him but he'd not bothered at all. BECAUSE hes just got married to someone else and has "moved on".

Taking this slightly off topic, but it prompted me. You hear about the proportion of divorced men who dont have anything to do or lose touch with their children from previous marriages, its staggering. Because,  they basically dont care enough about them or love them and thats because unfortunately........ they never really did.

And why is that?  Because they were really only objects to them, as they are ....... PD/Narcissistic.

I know if they remarry a Borderline female, that female more often than not is hostile to children from previous marriages , Ive witnessed this in my own family and work colleagues. So it can be very difficult. The husband is forced to choose between his new wife and his children. But who would get involved with a Borderline female in the first place?

Its my belief that PD is so much more common than is commonly accepted.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic , but its a subject that i keep coming back to.

Quote from: Hazy111 on October 10, 2019, 08:22:09 AM
Taking this slightly off topic, but it prompted me. You hear about the proportion of divorced men who dont have anything to do or lose touch with their children from previous marriages, its staggering. Because,  they basically dont care enough about them or love them and thats because unfortunately........ they never really did.

And why is that?  Because they were really only objects to them, as they are ....... PD/Narcissistic.

I know if they remarry a Borderline female, that female more often than not is hostile to children from previous marriages , Ive witnessed this in my own family and work colleagues. So it can be very difficult. The husband is forced to choose between his new wife and his children. But who would get involved with a Borderline female in the first place?

Its my belief that PD is so much more common than is commonly accepted.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic , but its a subject that i keep coming back to.

Personally, I could NEVER do that. Forget about my kids even if the relationship did break down....

OK. Its almost time for the Xmas day discussion. Need some help here.

I'm planning to say "Do you want to do something boxing day this year?"
Hes going to say "Whats wrong with xmas day? I'd rather not go to your brothers". (He moaned last year).

Now I'm trying not to get into explaining this apart from "wifes working". OK shes not. Yes I know I should really not make an excuse  and just say "not available".
He will want to know my EXACT plans - so he can pick holes and come up with suggestions like "can't you do this, drop kids here, collect me at this time" etc.

I also know he'll then say "can you sort it out with your brother then". In other words, you two decided amongst yourself how I'm going to be accomodated.
Not happening. Brother is a Flying money - Im not getting involved in arrangements with him.

Ulimately, I'm going to get "do it FOR ME". The ultimate guilt trip.

An open ended question like "do you want to do something on Boxing Day?" Is your first mistake. Don't leave it up to him. It will end in circular arguments and frustration.

Tell him I'd like to take you out to lunch on Boxing Day at x restaurant. If you'd like to go, I'll bring you. If not, I'll be going with my family.

Simple.

And he can moan all he likes. Let him go to your brothers on Xmas. You should spend that day with your wife and kids without the misery he brings.

Just remember, p123, complaining about something never killed anyone. And just because he wants to complain doesn't mean you have to sit there and listen to it. If he starts going off you can say "oh, got a client calling bye!" or if you're at his place "right, when you decide on boxing day, let me know, bye now!" and walk out. Normal people do these things! It's okay.  :yes:

Quote from: Adrianna on October 11, 2019, 07:38:51 AM
An open ended question like "do you want to do something on Boxing Day?" Is your first mistake. Don't leave it up to him. It will end in circular arguments and frustration.

Tell him I'd like to take you out to lunch on Boxing Day at x restaurant. If you'd like to go, I'll bring you. If not, I'll be going with my family.

Simple.

And he can moan all he likes. Let him go to your brothers on Xmas. You should spend that day with your wife and kids without the misery he brings.

Oh xmas day is off the cards no matter what. My wife would kill me!

Boxing Day she is actually in work. Daugher will probably be out with her gran. Son (whos 16) well he doesnt speak anyway. Driving 30 mins to collect him, 30 mis back to my place, when theres no-one in my house anyway seems pointless. Of course, same trip back. All because I expect hes got an idea in his head that hes "got to visit my house over xmas". Thats what he gets like.

Hazy wrote:

The husband is forced to choose between his new wife and his children. But who would get involved with a Borderline female in the first place?

Brief aside:  unNPD Ray got involved with unBPD Didi, and years later, they adopted me - it played out exactly as you described.  Ray always defended her and took her side, and the child was vilified.  It *always* played out that way - I have no memories of Ray defending me against her.  :'(

UnNPD MIL (DH's mom) married unNPD SFIL, who had 3 kids.  She chose to sacrifice DH as the SG, to save her sorry hide.  She didn't care what happened to DH, as long as she was happy, safe, and her needs were met - and she always sided with the other kids against him, which is why, as a unit, *nobody on earth* will ever come between DH and me:  we're like a force of nature, knowing what it's like when nobody has your back.  :kisscheek:

We always have each other's backs- especially now that the "in  sickness" part of the wedding vows seems to have come up.  :P

Back to the topic at hand  8-) :

P123, don't give your father *choices* or *options* about the holidays, or anything else.  TELL him what's going on and if he doesn't like it, tough noogies!  :yes:

For example:  He says, "What time are you picking me up Christmas Day?"  :dramaqueen:

You reply, "Dad, we're both working.  I can maybe spare a few hours on Boxing Day, to take you for tea  (or a meal in HIS neighborhood), but that's it."  :ninja:

Him:  "But I always come to your house on Christmas!  Can't you speak to your boss or tell him off?"   :dramaqueen: :mad:  (Yes, I KNOW - you're your own boss!  :)  Just go with it, okay - don't correct him!   ;D)

You:  Dad, I just told you we're both working.  I can spare a few hours on Boxing Day, for tea, and that's it.  That's all I can do."  :ninja:

Him:  FOOOOOOOOOOGHORN - and a whole bunch of crap about "trying harder".  :violin: :roll:

Ignore it and say, "Look.  I told you what I can do.  Boxing Day or nothing, Dad - that's it."  :ninja:

If he tries to change your *boundary* (taking him out somewhere near his and making it coming to yours, continues to wheedle and complain about "trying harder" for Christmas, or just won't stop), reply, "Well, then we won't do anything.  I've gotta go.  Goodbye."   :ninja:

If, for some reason, he starts up with his, "I'm sorry" nonsense, call it for what it is:  "Dad, you're obviously not sorry.  My decision stands.  Goodbye."  :ninja:

ANY time he brings it up in the future, repeat yourself like a broken record, tell him the decision is FINAL and if he doesn't stop, you're hanging up - and yes, his, "I'm sorry" should be *addressed* with, "No, you're not" - or, "That's what you keep saying, but you never act it." - and the call or visit needs to be ended *by you.*   :yes:

Your father is going to *hate* this, but he's going to hate *any* boundary, where he's not in control, and not receiving the supply he craves.

You don't exist to be a supply!  You exist to live life to the fullest and hopefully enjoy the ride.  8-)

Don't give your dad options - tell him what's what.  That, IME, was the easiest way to get a handle on both unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray.

Giving either of them choices would create nothing but problems and drama - so I took that ability out of their  hands.  :thumbup:

:hug:

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on October 11, 2019, 01:19:18 PM
...If, for some reason, he starts up with his, "I'm sorry" nonsense, call it for what it is:  "Dad, you're obviously not sorry.  My decision stands.  Goodbye."  :ninja:

ANY time he brings it up in the future, repeat yourself like a broken record, tell him the decision is FINAL and if he doesn't stop, you're hanging up - and yes, his, "I'm sorry" should be *addressed* with, "No, you're not" - or, "That's what you keep saying, but you never act it." - and the call or visit needs to be ended *by you.*   :yes:

Your father is going to *hate* this, but he's going to hate *any* boundary, where he's not in control, and not receiving the supply he craves.

Great advice from WI!

You telling your dad the way it's going to be, instead of giving him choices, gives you control over the situation.  Then, as WI suggested, you follow through on the boundary you've set-- because that is a boundary, telling him that you are only available on Boxing Day-- by not allowing him to question your decision.  I'm sure he will counter by playing The Victim and The Guilt Card, but ignore these and stick to your guns.

You might write out a little "script" and keep it by the phone, in case he catches you off guard and you freeze.  Also, I would memorize the "script" in case he starts in when you are over at his house, because it's going to be harder to state and stick to your boundary in person, rather than over the phone.  But the drill would be the same-- state your boundary-- "Boxing Day will work, but Xmas won't" then repeat, as WI says, like a broken record, that boundary.  Ignore his countermoves to FOG you, including his gratuitous "I'm sorry" or "I'm just so thoughtless". 

You are starting to see right through your dad's manipulation techniques.  So now you can be prepared for more of the same.  He will likely be very caught off guard by your assertiveness here, so just expect him to "pull out all the stops" to try to persuade you to change your mind.  And he may become "obsessed" with going to your house for Xmas, once you tell him that it's not going to work.  He may acquiesce shortly after a few attempts at FOG, then plan a "medical emergency" or manufacture some other "crisis" to try to get what he wants.  I would be prepared for these, and ignore them as well.

The reason your dad has gotten away with his bad behavior in the past, is because he is rarely challenged.  I think calling him out if he starts the faux "I'm sorry" routine is great advice!  Now that you are starting to emerge from the FOG, and clearly see his manipulative ways, you can state that boundary and ignore his tactics of using Obligation and Guilt to try to wrangle an invite for Xmas.

Here's another idea that might help you when setting that boundary--

When you are talking to your dad, either in person or on the phone, IMAGINE that he is someone else-- not your dad, but someone you hardly know.  Maybe try to picture him wearing different clothes, clothes that he would never wear.  Or picture him with facial hair (if he doesn't have any, or without it if he does).  This is an IMAGING EXERCISE that could help you emotionally detach from the situation while you are setting this boundary.

Other imaging techniques I have used--

*imagine you are way up high in the sky and you are looking down from a very tall building with binoculars trained on your dad
*imagine you are in an Observation Booth and you can see your dad through the glass window, but the window is one-way and he can't see you
*imagine you are wearing mail armour and whatever he says, whatever word "weapons" he uses, they can't penetrate that armour
*imagine you are inside a shark tank and you are swimming with the sharks, but they can't hurt you [this one from WI]
*imagine you are on a magic carpet and can summon the carpet to take you up, up and away at the first sign of danger

Fear often comes into play when you are setting boundaries with a parent, because they have the ability to push your emotional buttons.  You have been groomed or brainwashed by them to accept that "what they say goes"  and there is no ability on your part to fight back.  But these are false fears, brought on because their words-- sometimes even the sound of their voice-- reduces you to a child, to a time where you couldn't fight back, you were powerless against them.

But you are not a child now.  You are an adult, and your dad cannot do anything to you, outside of trying to manipulate you using these old and tired manipulative techniques that you now SEE THROUGH for what they are-- just that, manipulation, pure and simple.  So try some of the imaging techniques to "own your power" and not let him reduce you to a powerless child.

Wishing you good luck!  I know you can do this!!

And so it starts.... Facebook message from brother (bugger thought I'd blocked him - my fault!), his wife has apparently booked a holiday over xmas so I'll have to have Dad on xmas day.

Probably not true. Many years I've had the "booking holiday" and it never happened. Wouldn't put it past them to pretend their away as well.

Oh well. Dads still not coming but it makes my task harder.

Difficult for you this one isn't it? I'm not sure yet what's happening with my dad for Christmas.
I haven't brought it up, and he hasn't!
There's an expectation that we will have to have him this year for Christmas lunch I think, 
But I don't think it's doable really.

He's a long drive away, and he won't let us pick him up and drop him home.

He knows he can't stay for eight hours plus if he can't drive to us. He's 87 and I don't want him to drive the fast A roads to our home any more.

He has actually stopped driving in the dark now, so he wouldn't take be able to return himself.

He won't stay over,  as he only likes his own bed. At 87 this may well be fair enough.

I'm always pretty tired by Christmas Day 
(present wrapping, food prep etc ) and just want to relax and watch ( non PD) family open presents, eat and have fun, play with the grandkids, watch some TV then sleep!

  I'm over 60 now myself with depleted stamina levels to match.

Sigh. Ya reap what ya sow.....
Over the years, dad hasn't cultivated close, healthy relationships with his grandchildren. The closeness isn't there, and while they have a sense of duty, there's an awkwardness and a feeling of distance.
He's fine all year and every year, ignoring  them,  (unless he hears a snippet of bad news attached to them, then he wants chapter and verse on what happened), but come MAGICAL  Christmas Time he expects  nothing less than them all to be fighting over who is having him for Christmas dinner!
It's really hard.
I hope you sort this so that your family of choice come first. 😉👍🏼

Nanotech - oh hes NOT coming to ours for Xmas. I did it for years, drive 30 mins collect him, 30 mins back, then repeat afterwards.
He used to try and tell me what time to come "the kids can open their presents you don't need to be there".

He'd turn up, make inappropriate comments, upset my family. He'd make out he was ill and cause a scene. Xmas day was hell for me.
Two years ago he was awful. Pretended he couldn't walk, made comments to my wife, then when I got him home I got stuck there for hours because he said he was dying and needed an ambulance. Never again.

My wife would kill me. Shes put with him for years to be fair but he went too far.

Every year I got from brother "oh I might be away". He lives a mile away and got no kids (that he looks after). Last year he did go to brothers and xmas day was like a load off my shoulders. Obviously, my brother can see what hes like and is playing the old "holiday card" early.

My trump card for xmas when he kicks off is "Its just one day" and "There's always next year"

Number of times I've heard this from him when he expects me cancel something with my kids, and put him first. Taste of your own medicine here!

That is perfect. Use the same words he uses on you.

Quote from: p123 on October 24, 2019, 03:40:46 AM
My Political Candidate card for xmas when he kicks off is "Its just one day" and "There's always next year"

Number of times I've heard this from him when he expects me cancel something with my kids, and put him first. Taste of your own medicine here!

Not sure how Political Candidate came out on here lol. Meant Perfect Candidate....

Quote from: lkdrymom on October 24, 2019, 05:36:42 AM
That is perfect. Use the same words he uses on you.

and "Well, It can't be helped" when he thinks he needs something and I tell him its awkward.

Incidentally, a few years ago I had the "There'll be other xmases" about 50 times when he was in hospital  one year. I was going to visit but he, basically, wanted me there at 9am and to stay most of the day (and basically ignore my kids).

In the end I turned up at 3pm, stayed for an hour. He was not happy.

Yes P123 that sounds healthy!
I wouldn't put it past my dad to engineer a hospital visit on the day.
He's got a cold at the moment and he's really waifing about that.

I've just  told him that me and the hubster would like to visit him and take him out for a meal on one day near to Christmas, as we may be away Christmas Day / Christmas night. 

Which we may be!

He said okay but he wasn't enthusiastic! Quite monotone and annoyed really.

It's a nice offer we've made. He's just beginning to realise that I'm not giving in about not approving of him driving all the way to our house.

I wish he were more like normal folk in their eighties! Things would be simpler.

There's a lovely restaurant nearby his house, he likes the food, and we always pay for him of course.

He told me GC brother wants to take him out Boxing Day not Christmas Day, then quotes the massive price difference and how cost effective this will be for them both!

Older sis always leaves town and goes to her family in another town so that leaves younger sis to see him Christmas Day.
We could go of course but it's a long drive whereas she's a few streets away.

No one cared when we first moved out of our home town. In fact my PD siblings were pleased I think. Mum was still alive then. The assumption was that dad would pass on first, and mum who was very very close to GC brother( through mum he controlled the family through triangulation) would almost certainly move in with  him.
No one expected mum to go and dad still to be here. It's years now.
It makes me feel sad how we all try to avoid him.
But it is what is is.
Sigh I'd have him here in a heartbeat if I could have even a slightly healthier relationship with him.
87 year olds in general need care and can be a lot of work, but it isn't that! If he had a real illness and became forgetful and fraiI and genuinely in need, well I could care for him and maybe he would finally stop trying to be superior and critical all the time, and wanting to drive everywhere still.  :blush: :roll:

Quote from: nanotech on October 24, 2019, 10:29:25 AM
Yes P123 that sounds healthy!
I wouldn't put it past my dad to engineer a hospital visit on the day.
He's got a cold at the moment and he's really waifing about that.

I've just  told him that me and the hubster would like to visit him and take him out for a meal on one day near to Christmas, as we may be away Christmas Day / Christmas night. 

Which we may be!

He said okay but he wasn't enthusiastic! Quite monotone and annoyed really.

It's a nice offer we've made. He's just beginning to realise that I'm not giving in about not approving of him driving all the way to our house.

I wish he were more like normal folk in their eighties! Things would be simpler.

There's a lovely restaurant nearby his house, he likes the food, and we always pay for him of course.

He told me GC brother wants to take him out Boxing Day not Christmas Day, then quotes the massive price difference and how cost effective this will be for them both!

Older sis always leaves town and goes to her family in another town so that leaves younger sis to see him Christmas Day.
We could go of course but it's a long drive whereas she's a few streets away.

No one cared when we first moved out of our home town. In fact my PD siblings were pleased I think. Mum was still alive then. The assumption was that dad would pass on first, and mum who was very very close to GC brother( through mum he controlled the family through triangulation) would almost certainly move in with  him.
No one expected mum to go and dad still to be here. It's years now.
It makes me feel sad how we all try to avoid him.
But it is what is is.
Sigh I'd have him here in a heartbeat if I could have even a slightly healthier relationship with him.
87 year olds in general need care and can be a lot of work, but it isn't that! If he had a real illness and became forgetful and fraiI and genuinely in need, well I could care for him and maybe he would finally stop trying to be superior and critical all the time, and wanting to drive everywhere still.  :blush: :roll:

I'm hoping to take him out somewhere boxing day. BUT I'm sure he'll want to visit my house. There will be no-one there! Wife is working that day.

Its almost sometimes hes got a tick list in his head of things that "have to be done". Visited p over xmas - tick.

Like I said before hes been on xmas day and stayed hours when you can see hes not enjoying himself but in his head, hes thinking "I've got to do this". Its well weird sometimes.

YAY Xmas sorted. I managed to do it.

Sprung it on me. "So am  I coming to your house for Xmas day".
Me "Nope but we can do something Boxing Day".
Dad "But your brothers away Xmas day I'll be all alone".
Me: "So he says - anyway we'll plan Boxing Day nearer the time"
Dad: mumble mumble, microwave dinner, mumble mumble.

Do you know what though. The amount of guilt felt is ZERO. Hes ruined so many xmases with his bad attitude and behaviour I just now think - no way its time to put my kids first now.

Hi p123,

You handled that splendidly!

*First, you said "No", but gave him a reasonable alternative.
*Second, luv the part where your dad said "But your brothers away Xmas day I'll be all alone" [playing The Major Guilt Card here] and you answered "So he says-- anyway we'll plan Boxing Day nearer the time".  Ha,ha on the "so he says" and great on repeating your answer.

It looks like you are sorting out the difference between unwarranted guilt-- guilt foist upon you by the PD that has no rational basis, because living your own life is nothing to feel guilty about and you've done nothing wrong--  and, warranted guilt-- when your conscience tells you you f**ed up.

I would expect this is not the last you will hear of this.  Your dad may obsess on it and hold onto the idea of coming to your house like a dog with a bone.  But whatever tactic he pulls, you can handle it.  If he catches you off guard and you freeze or don't know what to say, don't commit.  The "Urgency" Tactic is one often used to try to catch you off balance and you blurt out "Sure, okay" before you even know what you are saying.  So if he pulls that one, hedge and say "I'll have to get back to you" or "I'll have to check with my wife on that" or some other nebulous answer.  Then, when your emotions have calmed down, you can tell him "No, that won't work".

You are so on the right track here!   :yes:

I would also be planning your response when you get the phone call on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day from the authorities telling you your father has fallen or cut his head on a cabinet door again.  You need to prepare your responses because your father will up the ante to force you into giving him attention.  What a perfect way to punish you for leaving him alone.  I know I am not good at thinking on my feet in those situations and I need to plan my action so that I am not manipulated into doing things by either my parents or the health care providers.   Will you be able to let him be hospitalized and not go pick him up on Christmas Day?   

Outsiderchild poses a very probable scenario. 

I think you have to decide what you are willing to do, p123, and what you are not. 

I have been in the situation Outsiderchild poses.   I received a call on a holiday weekend from my NM's Assisted Living Facility (they were an "independent" living facility, i.e., they provided assistance with shopping, meals, housekeeping services, doctor transport, but no medical support, no doctors or nurses on their staff).  My NM had fallen and they called an ambulance and she was in the hospital. 

I was still in the FOG at the time, but I was starting to come out and set some boundaries.  I let all phone calls that I didn't know who the originator was go to voice mail-- this was to give me time to plan my responses, not just emotionally react to the situation.  The woman from the ALF that left the v-mail sounded very angry.  She said "Your mother has fallen and is in the hospital.  You need to get over here now!"

I let three hours go by without calling her back.  My reasoning was, I am not a nurse or doctor, so what can I do, outside of lending emotional support, which I was not willing to do.  My NM was in a safe place-- the hospital-- where professionals were tending to her medical needs.  It wasn't like I left her on a street corner, destitute and fallen.   :dramaqueen:

When I did finally, after three hours, call the ALF back, there had been a shift change and the "angry woman" was not on duty anymore.  The receptionist only said that NM was in the hospital.  I said "thanks" and hung up.

Then I waited.  Several more hours passed and I got a phone call from the hospital (at this point my emotions had settled, I could think logically and respond, not react, so I picked up my phone calls) saying that my NM was being released and would I pick her up?  I said "No, I'm not able to do that, but I can arrange some medical transport if you aren't able."  The woman was, I think, surprised, but said she that she would relay that information to NM.

I never got another phone call asking me to arrange transport.  I found out later that NM had called a neighbor to pick her up from the hospital and take her back to the ALF. 

That was the beginning, for me, to not getting sucked into the "medical emergency" drama that my NM loved to create.  And drag me into.  And I never knew if the emergency was "real" or fake.  But it didn't matter.  I was not going to be dragged into the fray. 

So my advice to you, p123, is to decide what you are willing to do, if indeed the worst happens. Set that boundary and let the chips fall where they may.  Have a plan, even some planned responses, as Outsiderchild suggests. 

Then, after preparing for the worst case scenario, proceed to have a lovely Xmas!

Quote from: illogical on December 02, 2019, 07:05:30 AM
Hi p123,

You handled that splendidly!

*First, you said "No", but gave him a reasonable alternative.
*Second, luv the part where your dad said "But your brothers away Xmas day I'll be all alone" [playing The Major Guilt Card here] and you answered "So he says-- anyway we'll plan Boxing Day nearer the time".  Ha,ha on the "so he says" and great on repeating your answer.

It looks like you are sorting out the difference between unwarranted guilt-- guilt foist upon you by the PD that has no rational basis, because living your own life is nothing to feel guilty about and you've done nothing wrong--  and, warranted guilt-- when your conscience tells you you f**ed up.

I would expect this is not the last you will hear of this.  Your dad may obsess on it and hold onto the idea of coming to your house like a dog with a bone.  But whatever tactic he pulls, you can handle it.  If he catches you off guard and you freeze or don't know what to say, don't commit.  The "Urgency" Tactic is one often used to try to catch you off balance and you blurt out "Sure, okay" before you even know what you are saying.  So if he pulls that one, hedge and say "I'll have to get back to you" or "I'll have to check with my wife on that" or some other nebulous answer.  Then, when your emotions have calmed down, you can tell him "No, that won't work".

You are so on the right track here!   :yes:

Yes I've got my head around the guilt these days.  My mother-in-law will be there with us but shes no problem. For years and years, I had hours of driving each way, arguments because I wouldn't pick him up when he wanted, then hours being on tenterhooks while he was there hoping he woudn't upset anyone. Xmas day didnt start for me until 6pm when he'd gone home. I'd worry for months in advance too.

My wife was good. For years. BUT he'd do something and we'd argue. His table manners and general manners were awful. He just did what he wanted. The year he pretended he was ill was the final straw. I know hes old, but hes 5 years older than my MIL. Shes got her ways but he makes no effort for anyone else or to fit in and go with the flow.

Thing is as well - it became obvious he did not enjoy coming anyway. He sat there like a sort thumb. Spoke to no-one. Moaned it was too dark, too noisy etc. Then he'd say he was glad it was over when I took him home.  OMG! I'd say "sure you dont want to stay home we dont' mind". "No no I've got to come over at xmas". It did become a habit/obligation for him to be honest.

Well, if boxing day becomes the new habit then all is good. Hes like that - do it once or twice and its forever. Now if I can get him to go to a restaurant with me on boxing day then job done. Saves me driving 30 mins each way twice. There'll be no-one in my house anyway apart from me. (Wife IS working, MIL will take my youngest down her sons, teenage son will be there (headset on, playing PC games, not speaking so he doesnt count!)

Quote from: Outsiderchild on December 02, 2019, 08:09:02 AM
I would also be planning your response when you get the phone call on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day from the authorities telling you your father has fallen or cut his head on a cabinet door again.  You need to prepare your responses because your father will up the ante to force you into giving him attention.  What a perfect way to punish you for leaving him alone.  I know I am not good at thinking on my feet in those situations and I need to plan my action so that I am not manipulated into doing things by either my parents or the health care providers.   Will you be able to let him be hospitalized and not go pick him up on Christmas Day?

Oooh good point. Hes got previous with fake injuries too !

The one time he was in hospital over xmas (genuine this time) he was a NIGHTMARE! Pretty much demanded I turn up to visit first thing and stayed most of the days. My protests of "I'll be there later when kids have opened their xmas presents" were met with "There'll be other xmases - the kids will understand. And anyway you're wife will be there". He was AWFUL. I didn't give in that time - probably my 1st ever pushback (probably because my wife was NOT impressed with the idea AT ALL). He moaned and moaned and moaned....

Quote from: illogical on December 02, 2019, 09:47:20 AM
Outsiderchild poses a very probable scenario. 

I think you have to decide what you are willing to do, p123, and what you are not. 

I have been in the situation Outsiderchild poses.   I received a call on a holiday weekend from my NM's Assisted Living Facility (they were an "independent" living facility, i.e., they provided assistance with shopping, meals, housekeeping services, doctor transport, but no medical support, no doctors or nurses on their staff).  My NM had fallen and they called an ambulance and she was in the hospital. 

I was still in the FOG at the time, but I was starting to come out and set some boundaries.  I let all phone calls that I didn't know who the originator was go to voice mail-- this was to give me time to plan my responses, not just emotionally react to the situation.  The woman from the ALF that left the v-mail sounded very angry.  She said "Your mother has fallen and is in the hospital.  You need to get over here now!"

I let three hours go by without calling her back.  My reasoning was, I am not a nurse or doctor, so what can I do, outside of lending emotional support, which I was not willing to do.  My NM was in a safe place-- the hospital-- where professionals were tending to her medical needs.  It wasn't like I left her on a street corner, destitute and fallen.   :dramaqueen:

When I did finally, after three hours, call the ALF back, there had been a shift change and the "angry woman" was not on duty anymore.  The receptionist only said that NM was in the hospital.  I said "thanks" and hung up.

Then I waited.  Several more hours passed and I got a phone call from the hospital (at this point my emotions had settled, I could think logically and respond, not react, so I picked up my phone calls) saying that my NM was being released and would I pick her up?  I said "No, I'm not able to do that, but I can arrange some medical transport if you aren't able."  The woman was, I think, surprised, but said she that she would relay that information to NM.

I never got another phone call asking me to arrange transport.  I found out later that NM had called a neighbor to pick her up from the hospital and take her back to the ALF. 

That was the beginning, for me, to not getting sucked into the "medical emergency" drama that my NM loved to create.  And drag me into.  And I never knew if the emergency was "real" or fake.  But it didn't matter.  I was not going to be dragged into the fray. 

So my advice to you, p123, is to decide what you are willing to do, if indeed the worst happens. Set that boundary and let the chips fall where they may.  Have a plan, even some planned responses, as Outsiderchild suggests. 

Then, after preparing for the worst case scenario, proceed to have a lovely Xmas!

Illogical - thought of that. I wont be going to the hospital. I live 30 mins from Dad, 20-25 mins further to the hospital. Any genuine emergency is pointless calling me rather than an ambulance.

Of course then I've always got the "wife's in work, I've got the kids" excuse (he thinks shes working - shes a nurse). Or better still (because hes paranoid about this!) "I've had a drink I can't drive". Oh he'd push that - can't you drop kids off, or can't wife take time off work (NO! shes a nurse out visiting people who are also ill so shes not letting them down!)

Now I just hope hes not too clever and does something like call at 10pm Xmas eve or something. Might unplug phone/block number.

Really well done! That's brilliant!
If he does ring with a last minute emergency, it will be health or food.
So you could order him some freezer food to be delivered as a 'Christmas surprise'.
My dad used to have nothing in his freezer, always worrying about food poisoning!
My family used to catastrophise a lot.
Somehow I talked him into always having some frozen ready meals/ fish fingers in there, in case of illness or snowy weather, or some such reason.
He does this now ( wow) and often tells me what good advice I gave him!
I also pointed out to him that fuller freezers are cheaper to run than empty ones. He loves saving money.

If it's his health, give him a plan that doesn't involve you driving there,
'
'Dad, it's best if you ring 111/ ambulance/ doctor on call.

You're not a doctor.

Or it might be an appliance.
'Microwave's broken '
' Put it in the oven'
' But the pack says microwave'
' Dad, it'll be fine. Leave it longer.'
( buy him ready meals that go in both)

'The boiler won't turn on.'

'I'll ring an emergency on call plumber for you dad.'

Does he have insurance on his gas appliances? Might be worth taking some out!

Maybe also take a look what's on tv that he will enjoy watching. If he rings and says nothing good is on, prove him wrong.

You might be fine and he may not pull any stunts- but it's better to be prepared! 🎄

Quote from: nanotech on December 02, 2019, 07:25:58 PM
Really well done! That's brilliant!
If he does ring with a last minute emergency, it will be health or food.
So you could order him some freezer food to be delivered as a 'Christmas surprise'.
My dad used to have nothing in his freezer, always worrying about food poisoning!
My family used to catastrophise a lot.
Somehow I talked him into always having some frozen ready meals/ fish fingers in there, in case of illness or snowy weather, or some such reason.
He does this now ( wow) and often tells me what good advice I gave him!
I also pointed out to him that fuller freezers are cheaper to run than empty ones. He loves saving money.

If it's his health, give him a plan that doesn't involve you driving there,
'
'Dad, it's best if you ring 111/ ambulance/ doctor on call.

You're not a doctor.

Or it might be an appliance.
'Microwave's broken '
' Put it in the oven'
' But the pack says microwave'
' Dad, it'll be fine. Leave it longer.'
( buy him ready meals that go in both)

'The boiler won't turn on.'

'I'll ring an emergency on call plumber for you dad.'

Does he have insurance on his gas appliances? Might be worth taking some out!

Maybe also take a look what's on tv that he will enjoy watching. If he rings and says nothing good is on, prove him wrong.

You might be fine and he may not pull any stunts- but it's better to be prepared! 🎄

Yes I plan to be prepared thats for sure!

Brother is still telling Dad hes on holidays over Xmas. I'm just waiting for Dad to tell him that I've not invited him over for Xmas day. Brother will likely go mad - lucky I've blocked his number and blocked him on facebook.

It could go one or two ways then. Brother will either admit theres no holiday and play the martyr and have dad over on xmas day, or he'll lie and keep up the pretence.

Excellent progress with boundary setting! Good for you!

I agree have a plan in case he ends up in hospital demanding attention from you. We both know the lengths they will go to for attention and he wouldn't think twice about pulling you away from your family to get you out there.  Can you have them bring him home in a cab? My father did that once. He wanted me to wait at hospital for him to be discharged from emergency room at like 1 in the morning. I said no way I'm working in the morning. He took a cab home.

Quote from: Adrianna on December 03, 2019, 06:36:46 AM
Excellent progress with boundary setting! Good for you!

I agree have a plan in case he ends up in hospital demanding attention from you. We both know the lengths they will go to for attention and he wouldn't think twice about pulling you away from your family to get you out there.  Can you have them bring him home in a cab? My father did that once. He wanted me to wait at hospital for him to be discharged from emergency room at like 1 in the morning. I said no way I'm working in the morning. He took a cab home.

I was in work once 80 miles away and Dad wanted a lift home (another fake admission again!). It would have taken me an hour on the train, then 30 mins drive. I said "Dad get a taxi I will pay for it". Its about 15 mins from his home.

Not only could I just bail from my client - it wasnt an emergency after all, I'd not get paid for the afternoon.

Nope - £10 on a taxi even if I was paying no way. He even got the nurse to call me back and give me a ear bashing how I couldnt be bothered to pick your own father up. Was not impressed. If only she knew the truth.

He sat in a plastic chair for something like 5 hours waiting for free patient transport. All to save £10. Then blamed me for making him ill because he was so stiff from sitting there.

I have a plan. Like I said with wife working all hours and days hes had it. I've got kids so no middle of night adventures for me.

My dad does stuff like this regarding health emergencies.
My two undiagnosed narc siblings jump to attention and often flock to the hospital like lemmings over the cliff.
Then the finger gets pointed at me for not doing the same.
Ask me if I'm bothered 😕
I'm not doing it.
They discharged him at 1am one time. He got very upset with the staff. He told them he wasn't going. He wanted to be admitted to a ward. There was nothing wrong with him.
He ended up sleeping on a trolley because they had no bed.  :stars:

Quote from: nanotech on December 03, 2019, 10:17:46 AM
My dad does stuff like this regarding health emergencies.
My two undiagnosed narc siblings jump to attention and often flock to the hospital like lemmings over the cliff.
Then the finger gets pointed at me for not doing the same.
Ask me if I'm bothered 😕
I'm not doing it.
They discharged him at 1am one time. He got very upset with the staff. He told them he wasn't going. He wanted to be admitted to a ward. There was nothing wrong with him.
He ended up sleeping on a trolley because they had no bed.  :stars:

All sounds very familiar..... Brother is the same - except when hes down the pub...

Dads last fake admission was after a week of him being convinced he should be in hospital. He had a cold , maybe a chest infection. Two GPs, and one paramedic had all said NO you do not need to be in hospital. He called me and called me trying to convince me- what? I can't get you admitted after all!

So day later, we had a "fall" which involved a story that changed three times and seemed a bit unlikely. Even the head wound seemed strange. Hospital noted this also that it looked self-inflicted. Nothing ever got progressed.

Of course they kicked him out after a day or two as well. And he expected a lift home immediately.

I work closer now, but sometimes I wish I worked 60 miles away still..... (saying that it was a 6 hour round trip he'd still expect the same)

Crikey. They are so similar.
My dad even disrupted my auntie's  funeral with a feigned illness that was self inflicted.
(he walked outdoors when he should have been resting, until he brought on a 'stitch' which he then decided was probable heart pain!)
We were in another town 3 hours from home so it was a nice little jolly for him to a different hospital!
It got him away from the funeral wake-( he couldn't care less about my mum's family now that my mum has passed).
He tried to duck the actual funeral too, but I wouldn't allow him to.  I practically frogmarched him in to the service, while he complained and insisted on 'sitting near the back in case I collapse and have to be rushed to hospital.''
  :sadno: Clearly. Nothing. Wrong.  :sadno:
I got Nbro to take him to a&e and I stayed at the wake to represent my mum. No other siblings attended.
I went up to the hospital after the wake, met with a very frosty greeting from the two grim narcs.
Lots of traipsing up and down stairs getting him to this and that department and bringing him food and drink. Dealing with his rudeness to staff and his loud and random bleating about how long his results were taking and that he needed to be ' comfy in a bed on a ward,' and why wasn't I chasing the blood results?
I told him they had warned us they would take two hours, and that everyone here had waited a long time.
No reply.
Once I knew he was being released, and not kept in - off I went to catch my train.
Came home in the dark.
As I travelled on my own, neither one of the two males in my FOO checked up on a sixty year old woman that I was ok.
We had had a tricky journey down with cancelled trains and the like. As it was I had to change trains and ended up on a very lonely unmanned platform, middle of nowhere in a really run -down area.
The things you do to avoid narc car rides!
I texted NBRO  a few times while on the train to see if they had set off yet. No reply.
If you are no longer useful, you're discarded. NBro was also annoyed that I wasn't returning with him in his car. It stopped him looking like the hero.
Nope,  not doing that.
Two mood -ridden narcs in a car erm no thank you I'll pass.

nanotech - oh the "chest pain" and "can't breathe" tricks. Had that more than once.....

When he gets found out he then apologises but does it again weeks later.
I told him if he ever feigned anything serious again, it'd be the last time I came to visit. He stopped then.

He probably will have real pains one time and not ring anyone. To be honest, the ambulance came the next day last time - they've got his card marked. GP refuses to come out. We'll probably find him dead in the chair one day.

My father has so many trips to the ER over nothing. I stopped going to pick him up.  I just did not have that kind of time to waste sitting in a hospital waiting for him to be discharged.  For awhile I did run myself ragged to and from hospitals when this was a new thing..who wouldn't?  Going to a hospital was a big deal...until it is not.  And the guilt you got from the hospital staff was not good.  I really should have filed a complaint the one time.  But they don't know his history.

One time at AL my father fell but did not hurt himself so declined going to the ER.  Later he WANTED to go for constipation but they would not agree to that....so he tells him his head hurts from the fall so they will take him.  Of course every one likes to say "the poor thing, he has dementia, he doesn't know what he is doing"   BS!  They know exactly what they are doing.  (FWIW my father has never been diagnosed with dementia...I had him test 3 years ago....of course now I think the results would be different).

Quote from: lkdrymom on December 04, 2019, 06:55:57 AM
My father has so many trips to the ER over nothing. I stopped going to pick him up.  I just did not have that kind of time to waste sitting in a hospital waiting for him to be discharged.  For awhile I did run myself ragged to and from hospitals when this was a new thing..who wouldn't?  Going to a hospital was a big deal...until it is not.  And the guilt you got from the hospital staff was not good.  I really should have filed a complaint the one time.  But they don't know his history.

One time at AL my father fell but did not hurt himself so declined going to the ER.  Later he WANTED to go for constipation but they would not agree to that....so he tells him his head hurts from the fall so they will take him.  Of course every one likes to say "the poor thing, he has dementia, he doesn't know what he is doing"   BS!  They know exactly what they are doing.  (FWIW my father has never been diagnosed with dementia...I had him test 3 years ago....of course now I think the results would be different).

Oh yes tell me about it. Dad comes over as a sweet old man. And you get it full force. I remember once ranting at a nurse for 5 mins when she had a dig at me while I listed what he does.

3-4 days of him in hospital and they agree.....

My wifes a District Nurse. She sees lots of elderly people some with serious illness, some with no family, so she has ZERO sympathy with my Dad. She always tells me a lot of elderly people can have strange ways but my Dad is on another level.

And I dont get her started about his abuse of the District Nurse system. Its for house bound people only. She is SO busy its crazy out there.
He actually moans when they turn up late telling them hes late going out with his friends! Hes been kicked off the list a few times but moans and gets back on. All because he can;t be bothered to walk/take his scooter 400 yards to the GP surgery for his INR tests. Can you imagine my wifes face?

Eek.  It's interesting how they pick and choose their hospital visits.
The first time my dad did this was nearly  nine years ago.
He thought it was a heart attack, BPwas up  but not dangerously high. It was a panic attack. It then happened three times more. What else had just happened?
The birth of my first grandchild.
I've noticed since how his 'serious' illnesses seem  coincide with family babies being announced or born, weddings, birthdays (especially landmark ones)  and most awful of all, family funerals!

Still waiting for the fallout. I expect brother has heard about it by now.....

Im waiting to see what will happen now.

see it as an exciting challenge rather than feeling apprehensive about his response.
Don't wonder what's going on behind the scenes.
Remember that PDs  always up their game  when we stop  cooperating and fawning, and this can result in ranting / complaining/ criticising.

But it's straw-clutching and it's temporary.

Quote from: nanotech on December 05, 2019, 09:57:38 AM
see it as an exciting challenge rather than feeling apprehensive about his response.
Don't wonder what's going on behind the scenes.
Remember that PDs  always up their game  when we stop  cooperating and fawning, and this can result in ranting / complaining/ criticising.

But it's straw-clutching and it's temporary.

Ha ha yeh well I sort of KNOW whats happening.

Dad will tell brother pretty soon that hes NOT going to mine for xmas.
Brother will then probably try to contact me to tell me selfish I am because he can't possibly do it because hes booked a holiday OR
Brother will say the holiday fell through and will have Dad over his house because hes the better son. (I hope so!)

If the holiday idea is true, then Dad will be on his own Xmas day. Be interesting. His cousin and his sister have both been the worlds worst FMs in the past (both live local to him). Be interesting to see if they invite him to dinner. Probably not to be honest.

Will I feel guilty if this happens? Nope I won't. Hes got other family. Like I said, if the xmas holiday with brother is true - hes done that knowing full well that hes getting out of having Dad. BUT, the biggie, we had him every year for probably 15 years. It got worse and worse until it pretty much ruined xmas day. He didnt listen and carried on as if it was all about him. It left me wth no choice.

You've had him on Christmas Day for 15 YEARS? Oh my goodness!
And there's complaining about this year?
WTH and you are seeing him Boxing Day anyway?
I'm speechless 😶
That's very, VERY entitled behaviour from your brother and dad.
Stay strong 💪.

Quote from: nanotech on December 06, 2019, 05:07:33 AM
You've had him on Christmas Day for 15 YEARS? Oh my goodness!
And there's complaining about this year?
WTH and you are seeing him Boxing Day anyway?
I'm speechless 😶
That's very, VERY entitled behaviour from your brother and dad.
Stay strong 💪.

Yes it became the NORM to be honest. Brother just let it happen I guess.
He had Dad last year and Dad played up. Welcome to my life! Hence him trying to bail this year again.

Oh entitled yes Dad is. Once you do something once it becomes the norm. For 15 years I had "pick me up at 9am" No its too early I want to spend time with the kids, "you two spend too much on these kids" EVERY year he said this to my wife and "You dont mind picking me up at all do you and not drinking??" No Dad I love 2x 1hour drives on xmas day and not even having one drink until 9pm. (One sip of bucks fizz starts the nag!)

OMG the early morning thing too!
It's 'office hours' starting time!
Crikey.
I bet he doesn't go home at 5 though

Your brother has a right to duck hosting your Dad. You're not sure he's really booked a holiday? Who cares, it's his right, his life, his problem.

He DOESN'T have a right to fob Dad off onto you.

But he's not selfish for not taking him. That's between bro and dad, not your problem.

Very true NumbLotus. His brother is pretty smart really. He's managed to avoid Christmas drama for over 15 years, wish I had know about it all those years ago.

Quote from: nanotech on December 06, 2019, 08:02:51 AM
OMG the early morning thing too!
It's 'office hours' starting time!
Crikey.
I bet he doesn't go home at 5 though

Yep EVERY year I had the argument that I'd like to spend some time with the kids opening the presents. He just didnt get why. Their mother was there so why can't I come and get him?

No he'd have dinner. Sit there awkwardly. You could tell he wanted to go home. I'd try and hint. Then he'd say when I did take him home "Oh I didnt want to leave early because x (my wife) would be offended". Ummm NO like me she was waiting for you to go.

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 06, 2019, 09:13:44 AM
Your brother has a right to duck hosting your Dad. You're not sure he's really booked a holiday? Who cares, it's his right, his life, his problem.

He DOESN'T have a right to fob Dad off onto you.

But he's not selfish for not taking him. That's between bro and dad, not your problem.

Oh EXACTLY. Last few times when hes said anything I've said "I'll talk to Dad". I don't care what he does or what excuses he brings....

Thing is he thinks it should be a joint effort. We should discuss who and when we should see Dad. My attitude is I'll do what I can whenever.
In the past, he come up with things like "well my wife needs to see her own father" - Quite right. Do what you want?

I try not to get into a game of "I've got the least spare time" with him.

His classic is "I cant do this weekend so you and your wife will have to arrange between you". What? I've told him 50 times, my wife not her problem. Hes got a massive chip on his shoulder because his wife goes to see Dad in the week (lives a mile away, no kids, no job). So hes off the hook as well. My Mrs works, has kids, lives 25 miles away and he really think she should "do her bit". I've had this MANY times with him.

Never told mrs she would go crazy!

Hes got a massive chip on his shoulder because his wife goes to see Dad in the week So hes off the hook as well

Numblotus is right.

Whos got the chip here?   He can rely on his wife for visits but you cant rely on yours , so its all down to you. You cant share the burden with your wife and resent the fact he can. What if his wife worked full time and didnt visit?  Youre all being triangulated, like in any old dysfunctional toxic family with narc parents running out of supply.

I have the role of your brother in my family and my sister is you. Im NC with my Dad and her. It was her first because i got sick of her abuse and attempts to control me and dictate when i should visit him.  She conveniently forgets that she never visited him or even phoned him when he lived near me for 4 years after our Mum died and i did the role of supplying him. He phoned every day and i visited once a week. 

Then he mentioned remarrying  and suddenly this doesnt suit my sister and she moves him out of London and hes now  5 mins from her , but nearly an hour from me. He was already getting  ill with recurrent infections which involved him ending up in A&E, which i didnt even bother telling her about as i knew she wouldnt visit.

Shes resented it ever since he moved, as she would call me a lot to moan about him.  He assumed she would visit him or he visit her a lot more . He got invited for the odd Sunday lunch but these have now dried up apparently. He now relies on her a lot more, as hes got older hes got iller and he ends up in hospital a lot, theres no end of hell to pay as she demanded i visit him as and when . She used her husband and children to visit. He still phoned me every day for about 8 years!!

He lives in a secured housing development and  has a carer 3 times a day. (He has some supply) He doesnt seem to have any friends there and is not popular . Surprise.    Its not my duty to give him supply nor my sisters. I know he drives her mad, but thats her choice. She doesnt cut off contact with him entirely, no doubt shes worried about being cut out of the will. I assume i have now. He doesnt have dementia but is disabled, but he refuses to get a motorised scooter (too late now anyway) and really resents getting in the wheelchair.

Its no good blaming your brother, the problem is your Dad and your relationship with him. He isnt going to change. Its a tough one i know.

I think that was a little harsh but also can see why this situation might remind you of yours, Hazy.

p123, what I see is just little bits if resentment jumping out here and there tkward the wrong targets.

You dismiss your brother's wife's efforts because she doesn't work and she is closer. That is true, but thise things aren't relevant. Your wife isn't obligated to take care of your father no matter her employment status or where you guys live.

Your sister in law doesn't either. And it's a shame to dismiss her visits when she may well loathe doing it too, and she may get bullied into it by your brother. And then he can turn that into a weapon against you and your wife. What a shame all around.

I see your brother is stepping out of bounds, but it's not in the places you are talking about.

It's okay that he only took Dad once in 15 years.
It doesn't matter if he booked a holiday or is just using it as an excuse.
It doesn't matter how much he visits or doesn't visit, or how much his wife visits or doesn't, or how relatively busy anybody is, ir where anybody lives.

But you're nkt wrong for gaving feelings about your brother - the problem is this:

He should NOT be shaming you into visits
He should NOT tell you that you or your wife have to "fill in" for "time slots" he/his wife can't/won't make.
He should NOT be telling Dad that you need to fill in. His visits are bewteen him and Dad, yours are between you and Dad, period.

You and your brother are both victims are your father's manipulative behavior. You have tried to cope by meeting the demands as best you could, even at the expense of you and your FOC. You have now been changing to a much healthier way.

Your brother has coped by meeting some demands but fobbing the rest off onto you.

You feel resentment because he has not pulled what you perceive as his share of the weight. But this puts responsibility in your brother to keep pulling, and he is doing the same to you.

But neither of you are responsible for pulling the weight of a black hole.

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 06, 2019, 11:14:25 AM
I think that was a little harsh but also can see why this situation might remind you of yours, Hazy.

p123, what I see is just little bits if resentment jumping out here and there tkward the wrong targets.

You dismiss your brother's wife's efforts because she doesn't work and she is closer. That is true, but thise things aren't relevant. Your wife isn't obligated to take care of your father no matter her employment status or where you guys live.

Your sister in law doesn't either. And it's a shame to dismiss her visits when she may well loathe doing it too, and she may get bullied into it by your brother. And then he can turn that into a weapon against you and your wife. What a shame all around.

I see your brother is stepping out of bounds, but it's not in the places you are talking about.

It's okay that he only took Dad once in 15 years.
It doesn't matter if he booked a holiday or is just using it as an excuse.
It doesn't matter how much he visits or doesn't visit, or how much his wife visits or doesn't, or how relatively busy anybody is, ir where anybody lives.

But you're nkt wrong for gaving feelings about your brother - the problem is this:

He should NOT be shaming you into visits
He should NOT tell you that you or your wife have to "fill in" for "time slots" he/his wife can't/won't make.
He should NOT be telling Dad that you need to fill in. His visits are bewteen him and Dad, yours are between you and Dad, period.

You and your brother are both victims are your father's manipulative behavior. You have tried to cope by meeting the demands as best you could, even at the expense of you and your FOC. You have now been changing to a much healthier way.

Your brother has coped by meeting some demands but fobbing the rest off onto you.

You feel resentment because he has not pulled what you perceive as his share of the weight. But this puts responsibility in your brother to keep pulling, and he is doing the same to you.

But neither of you are responsible for pulling the weight of a black hole.

This thread is so interesting. 
I think it's true that your dad is playing one of you off against the other?
My dad often tries this with his four kids, but I don't play any more.
But by golly, I used to play it.  :roll:
They think I'm playing it now because I've invited dad for Christmas.   :blink:
They think it's all about trying to outdo them.
It's not. It's about having dad over. Full stop.
I think this is healthy advice, not to get tangled up with each other in a tug of war. Just drop the rope with bro and deal with dad  separately.,
Bro is in the fog so he won't drop his rope, but you can medium-chill or grey rock any attempts to demand, shame, control you.
I doesn't mean we have to like their approach to the whole thing!
BTW my UnPDN  bro's favourite saying is
' I have the least time.'   followed by ' I have lots to do'', and then recently I heard, ' I work full time with a four hour commute.'  :yeahthat:

Bless him!
Comparisons are odious, and yes, I guess irrelevant.

Your brother's idea of your dad's care being a "joint venture" will only probably last a couple of weeks before you're shouldering 99% of the load again.  :roll:

He's probably only saying it'll be a joint venture (or something along those lines) to get you to stop malfunctioning, so he can get back to doing nothing for your dad.

One of my biggest pet peeves is, "You don't mind  doing/going..." - like it's a statement of FACT.   :blowup:

UnBPD Didi was big on that one - we'd be in front of the drug store (in my car) and she'd say, "You don't mind stopping."

The only way to handle that, IME, is to NOT comply.  "Sorry - I'm very busy and need to get you home."   :ninja:

It's the only thing that works - just don't do what they're telling you to do.  :yes:

As far as carping on you about drinking, have you ever wondered why?

It's not that he's worried about your safety, but of what USE you can be to him if you get into an accident and are injured and/or arrested.

That's the real reason he doesn't want you drinking - not because he cares, but because you won't be able to do for him if something happens as a result.  :aaauuugh:

When I started figuring out things like that, it really started opening my eyes - and the FOG cleared.  My resolve became more firm - and yours might too, once you realize how little your dad actually cares for you.

:hug:

i agree that the TRIANGULATION going on in your family p123 is CLASSIC manipulative behavior by pd people. It's in the rule book. I have no siblings but I know 100% if I did, I would have encountered the same. 

I also know exactly what you mean about the visits. Nana would attend holiday gatherings and sit in a corner feeling sorry for herself, just waiting to leave, however if she wasn't invited it would have been the end of the world for her and a source of great drama "oh my family left me all aloooone on the holiday!"

My father lives alone. I did not invite him to my house for Thanksgiving because the last time I invited him for a holiday, he acted like he couldn't be bothered and I had to beg him to come. Looking back wtf was I doing? My in-laws would invite him too for holidays to be kind and he wouldn't rsvp or he'd call the night before and make some excuse. One year it was "I have to mow my lawn." She stopped inviting him. I told him I had dinner on Thanksgiving and no he wasn't invited due to his past behaviors and he didn't put up a fight or complain. I did bring him a plate of food. Quick visit. He knows I'm done being manipulated and won't be made to feel guilty by him after all I've gone through with his mother.

At this point I just see him as some random guy who really doesn't give a shit about anyone. He throws me breadcrumbs here and there but I'm not fooled. I have no expectations of him as a father.  You are likely at that same point. It's painful but what freedom to finally accept it. 

I am understanding too that my father having nothing to do with his mother and putting it on me angered me but in a way I don't blame him. I get it. I wouldn't do that to my son though. Put that all on him. That's the difference. My father told me years ago after my grandmother took his name off the house and put mine on, "She's yours." He wanted the house. He told me the other day within the past couple years she had called him wanting to put him back on the house, taking me off, apparently because she was pissed I was setting boundaries with her. He told her it's too late.  There I was still visiting her every week, doing things for her, being manipulated by her guilt trips yet reducing phone calls and she was considering pulling my inheritance due to some narcissistic injury or not getting enough attention from me. Neither of them realized and I didn't either until recently that my signature would have been required.

Inheritances with pd people are built on sand unless done properly. I know your father hasn't done any planning with his money like my father hasn't. Their choice. Their legacy. However keep in mind if he does, it's not guaranteed.

The bottom line I'm learning about the pd abuse is it all comes down to CONTROL. 

Thread is locked for length per guidelines.