Out of the FOG

Hi, I'm sorry this is so long but I'm trying to give enough information so that you guys can get the best picture of the scenario.

I was married to a diagnosed BPD man with undiagnosed (but very clear) NPD. We divorced a little over 2 years ago after several instances of infidelity and continued manipulations, erratic, and suicidal behavior. He was in a mental institution in some form or fashion. It was an uncontested divorce and I received sole custody of our son. He had visitation with SUPERVISED visitation (by me, at my house), but I have continued to go above and beyond to allow him to be a convenience dad. He contacts me last minute if he wants to see our child and I accomodate 99% of the time. He sees him multiple times during the week and he chooses another day - in the afternoons.

The last two years have looked like this:

End of 2016: He took a solo trip to Iceland for a "me" trip while the divorce was being finalized, had sex with a woman there, was arrested for rape, got his passport taken, went thru the courts, the girl's family member testified she falsified the accusation and he was released with the charges dropped. He then attempted suicide in his hotel room (this is all, of course, according to him)

2017 (just last year): he went off his meds without telling anyone, was stalking me, driving past my house, going thru my trash because he suspected there was another man who had been to my house, hyperfocusing on me, made many statements indicating he cared more about me than anyone or anything else (including our child), was only focused on winning me back. I have multiple recorded phone conversations throughout this entire year with his erratic behavior, focusing on me, crying, telling me he still loved me and he had NOTHING in his life if I wouldn't be his friend, etc.

2018: he had shown signs of irrational behavior in how he reacted when he found out about my serious boyfriend (now fiance) and we had several issues but I still tried to work with him when I felt he could handle it. When I got engaged was when everything started to really change.

Per our divorce decree: we use a parenting facilitator to discuss any changes or disputes, mediation, etc. He asked for our child (then 5 years old) to come to his house and start spending some of their time at his house. I said we could discuss at parenting facilitator, which we did and I agreed to doing a walkthrough, telling him what I was comfortable with and what was unacceptable, and starting out very slow and gradual. I also, at this time, visited a child psychologist by myself to discuss general child development to make sure I did this the right way so that in case I had to dial the visits back down, it wouldn't affect our child psychologically.  Keep in mind, he had never ever been to his father's house and did not seem at all curious about it, didn't ask to go, is very well-adjusted in the norm.

During the walkthrough, there were several things we discussed, one being the firearm he had UNLOCKED at the top of his closet that he didn't see a problem with, another being the fact that he had already decorated a room with a BED that looked very enticing. I said the bed would be extremely confusing for our child because this was his first introduction to his dad's house and we were a LONG way from him spending the night. He agreed and said -- because it was a super tall loft bed -- he was ordering blankets to cover it with, have those blankets hang down, and turn it into more of a fort underneath rather than a bed. He also said the ladder to that bed would stay in the closet so our child could not even attempt to climb up the bed. I agreed to this although I was extremely uncomfortable.  I am sure you all can relate to the feeling of walking on eggshells and always trying to do the dance of doing things in your child's best interest whilst not upsetting your PD ex enough to cause problems.  Also he offered to let me have the firearm because he "never used it," so I was able to make sure it was locked up safely.

When the time for the scheduled visit came, he never told me the blankets for the fort weren't in yet. So we came and there was a very obvious bed. The other minor things we agreed upon were not done either. I still brought our child over, a handful of times and because our child seemed to be able to handle a few hours at a time, I agreed to drop our child off for a few hours at a time.

After a mere handful of visits, and closer to my impending wedding, BPD exH tells me he thinks he should have overnights. I said I don't think you're ready for that, but I'm happy to discuss with our parenting facilitator per our decree. We set the appointment but due to her availability, it's about 3-4 weeks out. The very next visit our child had at his house, I noticed the ladder was place back on his bed, without discussing with me.

I asked him about it and he dismissed me, saying we could only discuss it at our next meeting with the parenting facilitator. At this point it was clear he was using our child as a pawn, because he wanted our child to start wanting to stay there by seeing the ladder and the bed, he was going back on our previous co-parenting agreement, and - like times in the past when he had cycled - I would need to dial things back down. I told him in the meantime, visitation would take place back at my home.

I was served shortly afterward with no warning, no discussion, before our parenting facilitator meeting. He is asking for joint custody, first right of refusal if I'm gone for more than 12 hours, a custody evaluator, for our child to be allowed to be around his family (his mother emotionally abused him, was manipulative, had sex with her boyfriend in the same room with him as a young boy, etc and he had no contact with her for a decade, our child has NEVER met his family or asked about them, and there was a restraining order in the decree preventing them from being allowed around our child.

They are asking for temporary orders for which we have a hearing later this month.

I have discovered that he is, of course, back in contact with his undiagnosed PD mother, who gave him the money for an attorney and I am sure is pushing his entitlement mentality here.

We went to the scheduled meeting and he sat there and played doting perfect father, even saying "I've done everything right the last 2 years." I have proof - documentation and recorded phone calls- that what he's saying is not true. Everything was about him, he even ADMITTED when I called him out about putting the ladder back on, "I felt it was time, and he should know that he should be able to stay at my house."

We have another scheduled parenting facilitator meeting this week, but I live in a constant state of anxiety. To ME, no objective person looking at this would give him what he's asking for. He impulsively sued me, and in doing so breeched our original agreement of going to the PF first, and is refusing now to co-parent with me by going behind my back. I have documentation of this.

Meanwhile, I imagine because he's being manipulated by his uPD mother who was always obsessed with having grandkids, he keeps trying to be friendly with me during his visits here. He asks me personal questions like how my friends are doing, etc. He mentions things that are happening in mutual friends lives and tries to interact as if he hasn't just sued me. It's very bizarre.

Any advice from anyone who has gone thru this? The temporary order hearing is scheduled a few days before Christmas and several days before we are supposed to all leave to go to another country to get married (I'm sure that's not a coincidence). Surely a judge wouldn't be willing to overlook the liability of temporarily granting this to someone with a documented record of mental health instability. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I'm a wreck.

Anxious mom - It sounds to me like the odds are heavily in your favor in light of all of the history of your ex.  The move to get the lawyer before the parenting evaluator meeting (and your wedding) is classic PD.  You have have some upcoming events that mean a lot to you and I am going to do what i can to draw away any happiness from you and now you have to focus on me (the PD).  I'm sorry you have to go through this right now I might be somewhat naive on this, but his legal troubles are pretty significant and I truly don't believe that a court is going to over look that to change parenting.
I have 2 non-consecutive weeks of vacation with my kids every year.  I used one of those weeks prior to my second marriage for exactly that reason - so my ex wouldn't be able to throw a wrench into our wedding plans.

HI anxiousmom and welcome!

You are dealing with a lot here. I'd first say to not depend on the parent coordinator or the judge to make decisions in your child's best interest just based on what you've said. Do you have a good attorney ? I would recommend you get one immediately that understands high conflict, Parental Alienation, and the history of your exPDH.

The hospitalizations do not mean as much if they are not recent and if his arrests were in Iceland and did not involve physical abuse of you or your child then the courts likely would not take them into account. Still if you can find proof of this that would be interesting to have. Do you have other older arrests from when you were married or when he was stalking you?

The comments about unlocked firearms in the house are very concerning. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are the only witness to all this that has been going on. Are  there records of this house inspection with the parenting facilitator.

Your documentation is important and you need to get all this organized and work with the legal pros ASAP.

I agree with sonto92 that the timing of all this is likely spurred by your remarriage, the holidays, and the return of his PD mom into the picture.

I would think you could fight this temp order with the right counter order but please do not expect the judge to dismiss this out of hand.

It sounds like you've done a great job handling this mostly on your own for the past few years but now you need to get others involved.

:bighug:

Latchkey

Thanks to both of you for your responses. Here is some clarification:

I got my lawyer involved immediately and already gave her a spreadsheet of documentation along with all the audio files, text messages, etc. She's spoken to his attorney who said his psychiatrist told him my ex is "good" and "med compliant." He offered to set up a phone conference with my attorney and the psychiatrist, she said yes please, and he never did so.

The parenting facilitator DID witness the conversation about the unlocked firearm - we discussed it in her office. As a matter of fact, his defense was that it was "up really high, in a locked case--- well, not a locked case, but a case."

He also admitted in her office after I told him he was manipulating our child by using him as a pawn with the whole bed/ladder thing, that he did it because "I felt he should know that he can stay here if he wants." I would imagine a professional would make note of the fact that he is admitting to using his child to manipulate the situation but I just have so much fear of the unknown. It would be so detrimental to our child's well being for him to get anything he's asking for.

We have another meeting with parenting facilitator next week, so we'll have another opportunity to get things documented before the hearing. My attorney asked to start planning the child custody evaluator and his attorney pushed back and said it "didn't make sense" to do it while my ex is in supervised visitation at my house, so they'll only do it after the temporary hearing.

The only thing I can imagine is that now that his PD mom is back in his life, she's filling him with these grandiose thoughts. Our last meeting with PF, he said he had done everything right the last 2 years. It's just not true. I don't understand how he could think that. It's a complete revision of history.

anxiousmom,
I am so glad to hear you have an attorney and taking this seriously.
Unfortunately, revisions of history are what we all do with our memory and PDs do it so well and so thoroughly they convince themselves.

It sounds like the attorney your exH is working with is likely not aware of all that has happened or who his client is. If you read through many posts here and in Sep and Divorcing you'll see numerous outlandish seeming legal nuisance claims. Some BioPD parents and Step Parents are able to create a lot of trauma for everyone. I am hoping you don't have to deal with this for months and months.

If your PDH didn't get along with his PDmom for decades then it's likely this help and legal assistance and pressure from her may not last. Remember his PDmom is pressuring him likely more than he is pressuring her for "help" since he's been fine with the status quo. However some PD grandparents try for visitation so not trying to scare you but I've been on these boards and another one before this for over 10 years and the more you read the more you realize there is a lot of ways a PD can cause havoc.

In my case, I had DCFS involved and a very good attorney, therapist, and  GAL. I had joint custody with my exBPD/ASPD H but I was able to get his visitation suspended and he stopped fighting. My D's from that marriage are now 19 and 21. It was 10 years ago when this all happened in my life and that was the last time my D's saw their PD Dad because he refused to do even the basic requirements. He is now in some contact with my DD19 but she is being very cautious and has no plans to see him.

I would think a GAL would be appointed before any thing changes but again, not sure on this.
Keep posting and sharing more of your story.

Latchkey

Hi anxiousmom,
You are going through a LOT! In my situation I'm the fiancee marrying someone with a PD ex although she is not as severe as your ex. I don't have a lot of insight about the court stuff but I have found that what helps me is to take my frustration and fear and to channel it into being productive for the kids. In your case that might look like, compiling documents or other things to help with the hearing or otherwise looking for ways to help out your lawyer. It might help to get yourself clear on the strategy that your lawyer will argue (something like, PDex has not always been safe for son to be around and anxiousmom has gone out of her way to facilitate the relationship, the best situation for son is the current one). Then you can look for other evidence or stuff that might help. Or even if you've done everything you can do on the court stuff, channel your frustration into quality time with your son, signing him up for lessons that you've been meaning to do or even just some holiday shopping for him.

Also, is there anything you know about his relationship with his mom that might help you out here? Like, if she would stop helping him if X came out in court (like emails where he says she's unstable, I don't know). Or she's probably only interested in whether SHE can see your son and if it becomes clear to her that your ex won't let her do that, she'll stop helping him. See if you can use that to your advantage.

I'm so sorry you're going through this! It sounds like an incredibly hard situation. I hope you get a good outcome for your son and you find some time to enjoy your upcoming wedding! I'm certain your ex would love it if he made you too stressed to really celebrate.

Do you have any evidence of his irrational behavior in 2018? If you do get an L, I would bring that up and how in the past, he's gone off his meds without telling anyone and what that looked like. And definitely bring up the unlocked gun. Does the parental facilitator know about any of this?

and I know it will be difficult, but try your best to not let it ruin your wedding or holiday. That's probably part of why he's doing all this now.

I documented it at the time, so I know that's not HARD evidence but it's something. I always document in email so it has the timestamp. The parenting facilitator does know about some of this, she does know about the unlocked gun, and his inability to make age appropriate decisions for our child.

I hear him talk and think to myself "surely an expert will see right through this," but obviously there's no way to know. I just can't see how he can prove it's in the best interest of our child, who is thriving in the current situation and doesn't ever ask for more time with his dad, ask to go over there, etc.

Quote from: athene1399 on December 06, 2018, 07:27:18 AM
Do you have any evidence of his irrational behavior in 2018? If you do get an L, I would bring that up and how in the past, he's gone off his meds without telling anyone and what that looked like. And definitely bring up the unlocked gun. Does the parental facilitator know about any of this?

and I know it will be difficult, but try your best to not let it ruin your wedding or holiday. That's probably part of why he's doing all this now.

We had our parenting facilitator meeting last night. His self-aggrandizement was in full force. I went through the issues we have had the last 2 years to explain he had not done "everything right" the last 2 years as he said.

I must say, he put up a good front. He was very clearly heavily coached to give buzzwords. When asked what "co-parenting" meant to me, I said adults making adult decisions based on our child's best interest and leaving the child out of it." When asked what it meant to him, he just said "joint custody and him spending the night at my house."

He said I've done a great job "marginalizing" him, even though I've bent over backwards to accommodate him and can show proof of it. His focus was that it isn't a "normal" situation for him to have to come to his ex's house with her new fiance to spend time with his son. Said he's a great dad. Boasted about all the work he's doing in AA and "community service." Everything was focused on him and how he's "earned this right," etc.

When I brought up the gun issue, he first would not admit that him making up an excuse that he was going to the gun range was a lie. He said "I was going to the gun range and also I did know that she was being served, but the two were not related." Then two minutes later he had the audacity to say "Well honestly I was a little worried about you having the gun because I didn't know how you would react to being served..." To try and make me look like the crazy one even though I have no record of anything remotely close to that and he has multiple suicide attempts.

In regards to his mother- he said he had "made amends" with her as part of the 9th step of AA and they've forgiven each other but he has many more boundaries now- if she had it her way "they'd be talking 24/7" but he told her "I work and I can't talk all day" and that he "knows she would like a relationship with her grandchild." PF asked if we agreed before the divorce that she would not be a part of our child's life and I told her yes, we agreed to that before I even got pregnant. He didn't deny that and she wrote it down.

He also scoffed and was very defensive throughout the meeting when I brought up past history. Told me I don't get to make judgments on his mental health because I am "not a licensed health professional."

PF encouraged us to have our attorneys work together to come up with some creative solutions before this temporary hearing is scheduled. Said once it gets to a judge, "you're giving your power over to the judge to make decisions." Not sure if that was a signal to either of us either way.

At one point, he kept pointing to his "2-3 hour increment visits" and I asked him "who sets the time you come see him?" He says, "WELL I WORK for a living, I can't come see him during the day." OK your work is so important you can't be flexible in seeing your son but you want all these additional responsibilities.

He also said that our arrangement "probably was for the best" at the beginning but he's better now.

I know in all of our visits, it's all been about him, from the beginning. Even now, he isn't willing to work with me on anything except giving him exactly what he wants. He just says he thinks it's time for a judge to decide. I am hoping and praying the PF is picking up on this based on our previous meetings up to now.

Thoughts?

Wow, it sounds like he said a lot of BS at this meeting! I hope the PF picked up on that. My initial thought is that it sounds like you're doing EVERYTHING right, so kudos to you, this is a very hard situation!

Also, I actually think this is really good advice:

Quote from: anxiousmom on December 11, 2018, 10:47:47 AM
PF encouraged us to have our attorneys work together to come up with some creative solutions before this temporary hearing is scheduled. Said once it gets to a judge, "you're giving your power over to the judge to make decisions." Not sure if that was a signal to either of us either way.

I find that BM often asks SO for a giant thing where what she really wants is a very small part of it. You might see if that's happening here and if what he really wants is something you can live with.

For example: When they were back in court recently she wanted to redo their entire holiday schedule in a way that would totally prevent an annual family trip the kids have been taking since they were born. SO was furious - he thought she was trying to kill the whole deal with this last-minute addition. She was saying all this stuff like the kids have asked to see her during his holiday time (well guess what, they ask to see him during her holiday time too! His response is, have a great time with your mom and I'll see you after!).

But then he asked her about it and suggested some other options, and it turned out that her only issue was that with a new 50/50 schedule, he would have the kids a couple days more per year because of this holiday. So the solution was seriously just that they gave her two additional holiday days per year. That's it!

I'm not even sure if SHE realized that she didn't want to revamp the holiday schedule, she just wanted this small change. And SO had to do alllll the work, from finding the compromise to paying his lawyer to write it up. But it was worth it because they would've probably gone to court otherwise.

I wonder if this might actually be the crux of his whole issue:

Quote from: anxiousmom on December 11, 2018, 10:47:47 AM
His focus was that it isn't a "normal" situation for him to have to come to his ex's house with her new fiance to spend time with his son.

Is it possible that he hates coming into your home with your new partner and he's fixating on changing the custody agreement as a way to stop doing that? Can you offer him some sort of change where he doesn't have to come to your house but the structure of the agreement is still intact? Can you find some other little bones to throw him in a settlement offer?

Also, are there any changes YOU want to make to the custody arrangement? Like maybe, he can't come by your house anymore? I'd throw those out there too. If nothing else it'll move the middle ground more toward your position.

One more thing: it might help if you present to him, and to the court, a conciliatory attitude toward his "changes." You are very impressed that he's worked so hard to better himself! He's doing great work in community service! You want your son to enjoy the benefits of having a father around! The only thing is that addiction recovery is a slow, uncertain process, and you just want to make sure that everyone is ready for each new step and it doesn't throw off his recovery or relationship with the kids and OF COURSE everyone wants the same thing here... If someone needs to be the bad guy and say "look how unstable he is, he DEFINITELY shouldn't have overnights yet", let it be your lawyer if at all possible.

Good luck!!

Quoteknow in all of our visits, it's all been about him, from the beginning. Even now, he isn't willing to work with me on anything except giving him exactly what he wants.

Unfortunately know about this all too well. Our BM is a struggling single mom of three (with custody of none), who is a saint and the most humble, caring person you will ever meet. At least that's how she sees it. And that usually fuels her actions. She feels more than entitled to get whatever she is asking for.

I think you should say you can see he's making steps towards change, but don't feel he's ready for overnight stays. Since he doesn't like visiting at your home, is there a service in the area that can provide supervised visitation? We have Catholic Charities out here that does that. Although I have no idea how to get on their client list. It may be court mandated. Or is there a friend or family member around you trust that he may be comfortable with doing the supervision? Maybe offer to change that part of the agreement. Keep the supervised visitation, but change the where and who is supervising. I wouldn't be comfortable with overnights either if I were in your shoes. Let him know that you will be watching his progress and as he moves forward in his AA program, you may be more comfortable with him having a bit more time with the kids. We did something similar after BM's last suicide attempt. First SD was supervised with a family member we trusted. Then after a few months and BMs behavior seemed (and remained) stable, we did an overnight here and there. Then eventually we were back on the usual schedule. But every situation is different, so like I said, just do what you are comfortable with.

Keep up the documentation. You never know when that will help. Per our L, anything that occurred after the current custody agreement can be brought up in court. I wasn't too positive of your timeline, but it looks like the incidences in 2016 and 2017 were after the custody agreement. You could possibly use that as evidence of his instability.

If you can bring to the PF some minor changes that you can live with, see what he thinks. If he wants more, then try to get some legal advice.

am:

It's difficult to remain calm when the PD tries to make you look like the dangerous/unstable/controlling person, but imperative, ime.  PDs do their best to drive us over the edge.  That chaos manufacture creates confusion.  Confusion is their best bet in court, IME.

From what you posted, I'd say you've documented well enough/consistently to dispell the confusion ExPd is spinning.

Courts don't like to change the status quo.

They rely on Orders, and Agreements already in place.

You're conduct is indicative of a child centered parent doing her best to support the relationship between her son and his father.  THAT is what the court cares about, imo, as you address this case.

You're still supporting that relationship.  You're still following rules, and trying to work through the agreed go between. 

The PD can say anything he likes, but the attorneys and Judge will likely notice the PD's focus on himself and what he wants, rather than what's best for his son.  They'll get see every discrepancy you can document regarding past visitation, and your willingness to be logical and fair.

I don't think this will go to trial.  If it does you have everything in your favor.  Trial with PDs are about addressing all their false statements in court, and the harsh light of the courtroom loves documents, and evidence, which they typically have none.  What they do have is usually given out of context, and easily explained.

Court going badly for them often means they begin coming unhinged, but that only matters if you remain calm, consistent, level mom.....zero snarky, raising your voice, speaking out of turn or bringing up insane PD details you can't actually prove

That means you pull together all your evidence, and build your case around it.  Keep things short, simple and easy to understand.

When answering legal questions for opposing counsel give the burger, maybe the bun, never condiments or veggies.  Short and simple. 

It's easy to get upset when your child is threatened, so I found it helpful to imagine I was speaking to a child when testifying.  That way I tended not to ramble, or sound shrill, etc. 

You sound like a wonderful parent.  I believe you'll be able to show the court all relevant facts.  Just remember the PD's game is to baut you into outbursts.  Think if everything you do and say as something the court will see or hear.  Continue to document, and keep visits as normal as you can.

From here, it looks like the ex flipped out bc of your engagement.  I think he'll show the court exactly who he is, even if someone in this mess believes him for a while.  They can't fool everyone, and they can't back up their story with evidence, so try now t to worry.  Spend your energy preparing your e nails in a binder.  Maybe all in order by dates.  You can pull from there regarding issues like safety, not showing up for visits, being late, medications, etc.

You'll if course pull the ones that tell your story succinctly, but have everything at hand, just in case you end up at trial.  You never know what the PD will say, and disproving negatives I'd the name if this game, ime.

I'm sorry you have to go through to this.  You sound competent, and up to this task.

Good luck,

Thanks for your feedback, it is all very helpful as I navigate through this. We have filed a motion for continuance and counter petition and the hearing is tomorrow. They filed an objection to the motion to continue with a bunch of overreaching, generalizing statements. I'm sick about it. I hate not knowing what will happen. I am praying that the judge sees through it all and focuses on the fact that he is not abiding by our original agreement, and the best interest of DS.  I understand not everyone is religious, but if you choose to pray, please pray for the judge to have discernment and wisdom. If you don't, good vibes would be appreciated.

Sending both good vibes and prayers your way... keep us posted.
:bighug:

FYI we had our day in court. Our motion to continue was first to be heard. The judge first encouraged our lawyers to come to an agreement. His lawyer wouldn't budge. All they want are unsupervised overnights. His lawyer was extremely condescending toward me and painted the narrative of me being "overprotective" and irrational. They brought his psychiatrist as an "expert witness" (although he wasn't heard) and his lawyer spewed a bunch of lies about my ex like he'd done everything right the past 2 years.

We had to wait until a bunch of other cases were heard and he came back to us. He made it clear after both attorneys spoke that he was not going to overturn previous agreements in a temporary hearing because temporary hearings are supposed to be used for emergency type situations.

He granted our motion to continue and encouraged us to come to an above and beyond agreement for Christmas Eve because "it's Christmas."

My ex BPD did not get anything he asked for in the petition. All he got was unsupervised time on Christmas Eve from 8 am-1 pm. Literally, when my lawyer reminded the judge, "he's never had that long." The judge said "I know. But it's Christmas."

But again, he made it very clear that he was not willing to overturn prior agreements in temporary hearings and that he encouraged us to work with the parenting facilitator and work something out because the court would "probably come up with something that both parties won't like."

Again, I have been trying to work with him this way this entire time, he's the one who has either refused or just agreed to something and then completely disregarded it.

Our next court date is Jan 11, and we have another meeting with the facilitator Jan 8th, so now we breathe, enjoy the holidays, and go get married on the beach.  :) Thank you all for all your feedback and thoughts. Enjoy your holidays and Merry Christmas. Will be thinking and praying for all of you that you all have peace over the holiday season.

I would count this as a win.Your ex didn't get what he wanted.  :) And make sure you note how Christmas goes with him and your child. You can bring that up next time in court. It does suck that you have to go back. I've been there, and it really feels like your life is in limbo and can change on a moment's notice. But make the best of it. Make sure you can show you're doing your best to work with your ex. Judges like it when the parents try to communicate and work things out.

QuoteHe said I've done a great job "marginalizing" him, even though I've bent over backwards to accommodate him and can show proof of it

If you're showing that you're trying to be accommodating but your ex's behavior makes it impossible to co-parent or trust him, that can work in your favor next time. Please let us know what happens with the PF. Try your best to offer compromises because he probably won't accept them, so it will look good that you can show you're trying to be accommodating and he's just not accepting anything.

Have a great wedding and a great Christmas!

It's upsetting when Family court Judges make it sound like they'll punish both parties if the Judge is forced to hear your case, Ime.... it's a good threat the great Judges don't make.

I'm guessing your attorney know a bit about your Judge, and how he tends to rule.  Ime, even the really bad judges have a hard time ruling against the parent with great records, and evidence.  They take many oaths, and dislike being overturned

The PD and his attorney aren't going to budge.... it's likely everyone involved knows that.  The threat to rule, and make everyone cunhappy, is meant to scare you, ime.  The PD doesn't care about son's best interests.  Any change, even bad changes, are agood if you hate them too,

Be strong.  Hold steady.  Keep asking for what's best for your son.  It's hard for Judges to change Orders, esp when the PDs ask for things based on lies they can't back up.

Believe in your evidence.

Always speak about your ex with compassion.... he's ill, and the father if your son.  Judges don't like snark and discord.  You be the calm dependable voice of reason this Judge can trust to help the mentally unstable PD dad have the best relationship he can with his son.  Don't ever let the Judge think you'll be Petty, small or withholding, and his job gets easier, ime.

Remember, the PD wants to upset you.  Don't ever let him.  The calmer you are, the more chance the PD comes unglued.

Embrace your wedding with joy, and congratulations on you upcoming nuptials.

Thinking of you today, anxiousmom! I hope the visit goes as well as it can, and have a great wedding!!!

Update: our temp order hearing has to be rescheduled because our judge is out until march.

Also, we had a parenting facilitator meeting scheduled last night that he did not show up for. He has not indicated to me personally what excuse he has for why he didn't show up but I find it very telling that even when he forces us into court and is supposed to be on his best behavior, he can't handle it.  I'm viewing it as a blessing in disguise.

BTW: our wedding and vacation was absolutely perfect and our cell service didn't even work so even if he intended to bother us, he couldn't have. :)

Whoo hoo!

::doing the snoopy dance for anxiousmom!::.

The PDs have a hard time holding steady.  He tried to unhinge you, and ended up feeling too unsteady to be consistent, and responsible himself.   It's one more failure to show this Judge who he is, and he'll eventually show everything if he makes it to the end of this case, IME.

Lack of evidence tends to do that, IME.

Expect the PD to come back with some insane excuse for missing this meeting.  The date on his paperwork was wrong, or looked like another date, or his mother is ill, or his cat died, or he had a car wreck..... he'll likely want sympathy, AND another meeting that wastes more of your time, and money. 

Stay steady,  and know you have the stronger case.   

Congrats on enjoying your wedding vaca. 

Yay! I'm so happy your wedding went well.

That is great that he didn't show up and the date got extended. This might support the theory that it his parents pushing this and not him and perhaps he's had a falling out with his mother.

Whatever it is, stay vigilant, steady, and strong!

He admitted to me this weekend when I casually asked him: "Honestly I just forgot."

Really dude? You think it's so important you have both of us spend tens of thousands of dollars to change our original agreement and while in the MIDDLE of the court battle you can't even bother to remember your parenting facilitator appointment?

I can't imagine that going over well to convince the judge that he's ready for more responsibility...

Lawyers just agreed to a new temp hearing at the end of the month, however, his lawyer is already requesting to schedule the final trial date. Does this seem odd to anyone else? They are already signaling they don't intend to negotiate at all, I guess, which to me doesn't look good. Also makes me feel like the temp hearing is just a waste of everyone's time (and my money!). The previous judge already said temp hearings are supposed to be used in emergency situations. Why have another temp hearing if they are already pushing to schedule a final trial?

His lawyer also said the final trial "should take a day." Ha. With all the evidence I have? We'd be lucky if it took only a month.

I wish I understood the strategy more. I just don't understand the push to have a judge rule on this.

I'm comforted by the fact your PD isn't signaling willingness to compromise, bc, ime, that means he's not very smart about manipulating the system.

When I was battling the PDs for 10 years, they wanted every chance to compromise, set temp hearings, etc, spent HOUR and DAYS pretending to agree to things.... took weeks or months to hammer out details, and when we agreed.....

they'd shrug their puppet attorney's shoulders, and say they wanted to go to trial after all.   :stars:  Sick sick sick, and diabolical, bc you'd THINK you were about to be DONE, then you were going into full trial prep, after pushing boxes of documents out of your way, and trying to get back to parenting well.

If your PD isn't pretending to settle, then that's good on two levels.  ONE, he's not wasting SO much of your time, and getting your hopes up, only to dash them.

TWO.... he's more likely to be identified by court officers for what he is.... pd, unable to settle ANYTHING, and not operating in the best interest of his child.   If you stay steady, and don't allow his insanity to force an error on your part, then the court tends to stay focused on the PD's bad behavior. IF you come unglued, at all, in any way, then the court is completely confused, and tends to rule so everyone loses..... split the baby, as they say.   This is terrible in these situations, where one GOOD parent is trying to protect the child from a PD parent, IME.

Stay level.  You seem to be doing fine.  KNOW your day in court will be good for you and your child, bc she with the best records typically wins.

You have more than records.  You have conduct, and consistent, level, child focused parenting.  You have a clean mental health record.  You have a stable family, with the child in your control.

Don't let PD's request to set a trial date upset you.  In fact, I'd have my attorney join in.  THROUGH the courts is the quickest way out of these things, IME. 

Trying to work anything out with PDs is a waste of our time, and resources.  Pretending we can work something out,for the benefit of attorneys, and any facilitators, is a PITA.  They don't like to be told the PD won;'t ever ever settle, btw.

When I told my attorney I wanted attend a mediation session WITHOUT her.... my attorney, belittled me, told me I didn't know what I was talking about, said the PDs would behave bc a retired Judge was in charge of the mediation, and I should keep my mouth shut, and pay her for being there, which I did. 

In the end, it was wasted time, but served a purpose.  1.  My attorney had to admit I WAS RIGHT.  2.  My attorney was angry she was made to look like a chump.  3.  My attorney became engaged personally in the outcome of my case, and started working like a boss to get me what I needed.... a super, high powered WIN in that courtroom, my attorney's fees paid by the PDs, and she made sure it was the FINAL case the PDs could bring against me for custody/visitation.  Mind you, she tried to get me to settle, to my detriment, but I stuck to my guns. 

Stick to your guns.

Don't allow people to force you to settle BC they KNOW YOUR PD won't.  The court officers tend to put pressure on the sane litigant involved, bc that's how they get you off their plate the quickest,  bastages.  They should care your your child, as the priority, but they tend to be underwater, jaded, and bitter, IME.

It helps to write down everything YOU HAVE TO HAVE.  Refer to it often, and stick to it.

You might consider asking for more safety measures, as your PD's actions are detrimental to your child, and you're very concerned about his actions, and ability to parent responsibly, considering what he's putting the child through, and both parents. 

You might have a couple small things you could agree to change, just in case you feel you must agree to something to get out of court, but don't ever allow them to pressure you into changing the BIG things.

IF you're forced to do so, make sure to put safety measures in place like supervision, a T to check in with your child regarding more time with the PD parent, etc.  You stay child focused, no matter what happens. 

The PD will likely balk at any hoops discussed, which means he'll have more chances to SHOW the court who he is, IME.

Good luck,

Thanks as always for the feedback, all. This forum is so helpful to know I'm not alone and to come when I'm spinning my wheels and not sure where to start.

It's hard to shake the feeling of complete betrayal. I bent over backwards to balance saving my BPD ex's life, and make sure my son had a healthy relationship with his dad. And I did a damn good job of it, though my biggest mistake was having too much sympathy for BPD ex and not doing what i thought was best in the moment. Back in 2017 when he was stalking me because he believed I was seeing someone, he went off his meds and became very troubled, erratic. He mentioned trying to buy a gun. I spoke with my lawyer at that time, who advised me to get a TRO. I chose not to after speaking with BPD ex's psychiatrist (the "expert witness" he has on his side now) who urged me not to do that because it might push him over the edge to harm himself, and he would only be a danger to himself, not to me or my son.  :roll:

In hindsight, I regret any empathy I had for him. I should have done it without regard to him and I'd probably be in a better position now.

Anyway, I just spin my wheels all the time stressing about this. For him, it's some sick power game. For me, it's about protecting my wonderful, innocent child, whom I've sheltered and kept safe for almost 7 years despite his father's mental inadequacies. Tonight I sent my lawyer a line-item rebuttal of my ex's petition to modify custody. I wrote each section's title and addressed the inaccuracies in the petition, why it wasn't in the best interest of our son, etc. To me, it's powerful, albeit cathartic, but we'll see what my attorney thinks.

Meanwhile, BPD ex was over and when he started coloring with our child, got completely lost in said "coloring" and ignored our son. He had to ask his dad the same questions multiple times, and then started coming to me in the other room to ask me. He danced to music right in front of his dad and it was as if his dad had no idea his son was even in the room with him, he didn't even glance up from his "coloring."

This whole lawsuit is just swallowing me. It's all I think about, and we don't go back until late February, and even then, that's just another temp hearing. Final date might be in March.

Every bone in body looks at all the evidence I have and says "there's no logical way a judge could feel comfortable giving him what he's asking for, there's no way he can show it's in the best interest of the child" but some days I feel fear of the unknown and the "what ifs" and I panic.

Trying hard to stay calm and focused, but one misunderstanding or misinterpretation by the judge and my son's safety and well-being could be put at risk. I've worked SO HARD to compensate for his father's lack of capacity. And to think all my progress could be cancelled because his father decided on a whim he felt entitled to more...it's just maddening.

Now that you're gathering evidence, and doing all you can do.....is there anything you could this Judge for?

Maybe you could ask for modifications that put more precautions in place?  If you have the evidence, maybe this legal battle leads to more protections in place, and the opposite of what ex had in mind.

Always treat these situations as prep work for the next battle.  What can you document, that you don't have already?  What is ex exposing...they usually give us something.

You can't ask to change things  unless ex gives you more cause than you had.  It can't appear to be tit for tat, but I see this agressive action as detrimental to son's best interests.

That's information too.

Good luck,

In my experience with my exhusband (NPD/ASPD/bipolar), having empathy for him or giving him the benefit of the doubt resulted in one outcome -- hurting me. It took me a long time to get my lawyer to understand that conceding something to my exhusband would never result in him also conceding something to me. He regarded any concession from me as a sign of weakness and an open invitation for him to try to get more out of me.

Have you included in any motion anything about the gun. If not, I think this would be the time to do so. You discussed the gun issue with your lawyer, the psychiatrist, and the facilitator, so there are records of those conversations that you can use now. The opinion of the psychiatrist is that -- an opinion. At the end of the day, there is no absolute proof that your exhusband would hurt himself vs. you and your son. Not to be alarmist here, but every week in this country a husband or boyfriend kills his partner and kid, then himself. A judge is aware of that and, I would guess, would err on the side of safety. We're talking here about someone who owns a gun that he doesn't secure and who has a verified mental illness.

I get it, you want to be the decent person. I did, too. But, in my experience, it's better to set your boundaries and fortify them with all the ammunition you've got. Your exhusband sounds unstable and more than possibly dangerous. Why take a chance with any of that?

Anxiousmom,

I am so sorry you are so anxious! It is a terrible feeling being in "court limbo", waiting for things to play out. Just worry about the things you can control. Track what you can. Have you talked to your L about this:

QuoteHe mentioned trying to buy a gun. I spoke with my lawyer at that time, who advised me to get a TRO. I chose not to after speaking with BPD ex's psychiatrist (the "expert witness" he has on his side now) who urged me not to do that because it might push him over the edge to harm himself

If they decide to use the psychiatrist as the "expert witness" I wonder if this could be used to your advantage. I'm not a T, but would not bet your life or your son's on if your ex would use the gun on himself or someone else. I think it makes the psychiatrist look bad IMO. To me it sounds like he/she was valuing his/her client's safety over that of others IMO. I just don't like that the psychiatrist told you not to get the TRO. IMO that was inappropriate, but I'm no expert. Sorry, I'm ranting now.

Also, I think it will look good in your favor that he forgot the last facilitator meeting. And I know you document stuff, so his last visit where he ignored your son  would look good for you as well IMO. Just do what you can and try not to stress over what you can't control.  :bighug:

Alright, for those of you who have been following my story...our temporary hearing was set for this coming Thursday. I dropped off payment this morning to subpoena the parenting facilitator, and had an hour and a half meeting with my attorney this afternoon, and at the end of the day my attorney called me to tell me exBPD & his representation decided NOT to pursue the temporary hearing. My attorney said "apparently they decided they didn't have enough evidence to win the temp hearing."

They are still going to pursue mediation and a final trial which will be in May at the earliest. Which will of course include discovery and then they will see all the evidence we have disproving his theory that he's "all better now." I know it's a long shot, but maybe...just maybe when they see that, they decided it's not worth the investment?

I don't know, but I am praising God this evening for small victories and the ability to protect my child, at least for another 3 months.

Thanks for the update. It seems like there will be many things in discovery that will not go in your exhusband's favor. I hope you prevail — and that the other side drops the rope again.

Geez, more chaos in this nightmare.

Apparently, his lawyer just tried to change his mind on the temporary hearing and say he DID want to go ahead and have the hearing tomorrow, because he mistakenly thought we were already scheduled for a March date, even though there was no discussion or confirmation of any kind of March date. My lawyer pushed back on him and recalled the emails where she told them she was available in May, and they never did anything to schedule it with the court. My lawyer got him to agree to NOT change his mind at the last second AGAIN by confirming the dates in May, so still no temporary hearing tomorrow but geez.

What a cluster. Neither exBPD or his L knew whether a final trial date had been scheduled, or when that date was? It's not like I'm the one asking for this to go through the courts, he is. And they can't keep track of it. What a mockery of the court system.

I guess the good news is that, even though his attorney is a partner in this high-powered, high-profile firm, it doesn't sound like he is too invested in this case.

AM,

QuoteI don't know, but I am praising God this evening for small victories and the ability to protect my child, at least for another 3 months.

A small victory is still a victory!!!  :) Congrats! I'm glad the temp hearing was dropped, even though there was a bit of drama after with the L. I'm sure that was stressful at the time, wondering if it was really over or not. Keep tracking everything until the trial and build up more evidence as you go. When are they looking to do the mediation?

No word yet on date of mediation.

He has gotten very dependent on last minute requests, which I used to bend over backwards to accommodate, but need some structure now with busy lives and schedules.

I asked him to please consider looking at each week ahead to give me some advanced notice of which days he wants to see our child and share those dates with me by Sunday of each week so that we can agree and plan ahead of time.  I copied in our parenting facilitator.

He sent me a nasty gram back, explaining he is requesting more time because our arrangement is unfair and inequitable, and he doesn't believe it's in our child's best interest not to see him as often as possible (making sure to say our child just LOVES spending time with him, etc). Said he can try to plan ahead but I should be flexible as he often has work/travel arrangements that are made last minute. Said he would also like to point out that just because it may be "inconvenient" for me to accommodate for his last minute requests, doesn't mean that it isn't in our child's best interest to see his father. And that this is a step backward as to how often he gets to see our child.

The condescension was dripping. It was a reasonable request. "Let's plan ahead." But no. I must bend to his every whim and his work schedule with no regard to mine or the fact that I have been juggling 2 jobs while raising a child on my own. Just completely insane.

In my experience, keeping all communications through the lawyers seems to work best -- and reduces exposure to the "PD effects." You might consider dropping all direct communication with him other than very brief texts or emails about kid-related stuff.

The email was actually a suggestion from my attorney.

In more bizarre news, I had also asked that we start using Our Family Wizard, attached a link, and asked him to let me know what he thinks.

He responded to both myself and the PF and said, "Well, this costs between 99-129 dollars and I wanted to make sure our PF was aware of that before she weighs in."

Like...you're good with spending an INSANE amount of money going through court, but you're going to balk at 99 bucks a year?
Just completely irrational.

Wow, your ex is really (and ineptly?) trying to give you the runaround in court! It sounds like you're doing everything right and putting your son first.

I'm soooo happy for you that they canceled the temporary hearing. I think the fact that they acknowledged they don't have enough evidence to go forward with that speaks volumes about where they're at. It sounds like they were trying to freak you out/bully you, and when you wouldn't cave they folded. Good job!!! Although I get sooo frustrated when this stuff happens, like, you just went through all this expense and stress for nothing.

I also think his email about planning his time speaks volumes, and not in a good way for him. He gives lip service to the best interest of the child, but then goes on and on about what's "fair" (presumably to him - it's not fair to your son to not know whether he's going to see his dad the next day, in my opinion! and it's certainly not fair to you.) I think you're well within your rights to make other plans during the week and only let your ex in if it fits in your schedule. No need to bend over backwards to accommodate someone who isn't trying to accommodate you at all! I can't imagine this looks good to the PF. And, he's trying to get more time with your son but can't even commit to whether he's going to want to see him more than a day in advance??? Wow, I also think that won't play well in court.

Keep doing what you're doing, I really think stability and your son's best interests will win out.

Oh and, from professional not personal experience, I've found that those big law firm partners have so much to worry about that they don't really care about a smaller case like this. And a lot of times they'll offload the bulk of the work onto a paralegal or junior attorney anyway. I doubt this lawyer will actually be an asset for your ex in the long run.

The court will SEE how irrational your PD is if you document well, and stay level yourself.  You seem to be doing an amazing job of handling all that's on your plate, btw.

About the changes in court dates, etc... I found that's a PD tactic to keep you off your game.  It also drives up your expenses, and takes a toll emotionally when you have to prepare for things over and over with the PD pulling away the football over and over. 

Best to keep all courtdates in place.... don't move them if you can help it.  Even if you're going to mediation, don't cancel any court dates until documents are signed, at the meeting, filed and stamped, IME.

And, if the mediation is successful... it's not a done deal till everyone signs.  Don't let the attorneys retire to their offices to hash out details, draw up an Agreement, while leaving an opening for the PD to change his mind, yet again.  Get everyone's signature AT THE MEDIATION, and have filed, and stamped.  I can't stress this enough.


Get all you can out of this chaos, as you'll likely prove your case, the Judge will believe you, and you'll get what you're asking for, or most of it, as long as you present as reasonable, and willing to facilitate the father child bond, which you absolutely have been a champion of, IMO.

The PD may end up with decidedly less than he had, should you ask for it.

Quote from: hhaw on February 21, 2019, 01:33:07 PM
And, if the mediation is successful... it's not a done deal till everyone signs.  Don't let the attorneys retire to their offices to hash out details, draw up an Agreement, while leaving an opening for the PD to change his mind, yet again.  Get everyone's signature AT THE MEDIATION, and have filed, and stamped.  I can't stress this enough.

This should be printed in huge red letters and framed in every mediation conference room. No matter how tired you are, how much lawyer hourly fees have been racked up, no matter how much the lawyers and mediator assure you that you have a deal and they'll send all the paperwork over tomorrow -- DO NOT LEAVE until you have the mediation agreement signed by both parties, sealed, stamped, etc. My exhusband wasted 7 hours of fees from two lawyers and the mediator, had us all convinced he was in agreement the day of the mediation. All the legal experts assured me that it was pro forma to send around the agreement the next day. He balked at the agreement within a week and all that money went down the drain.  He demanded the mediation just so he could then say no to the whole thing. Boy, do I wish I'd held a sit down strike right there that day!

QuoteSaid he can try to plan ahead but I should be flexible as he often has work/travel arrangements that are made last minute.

Was your PF in his response to you? I would print it up to give to your L, IMO. I mean he wants the custody agreement changed but can't tell you for sure when he will be home. That's not a stable environment for a child. How does he expect to get more time with his kid when he can't guarantee he'll be home? I mean, he just admitted to having to leave last minute unexpectedly all the time. That can't look good for him IMO.

Quote from: athene1399 on February 26, 2019, 10:54:24 AM

QuoteSaid he can try to plan ahead but I should be flexible as he often has work/travel arrangements that are made last minute.

Was your PF in his response to you? I would print it up to give to your L, IMO. I mean he wants the custody agreement changed but can't tell you for sure when he will be home. That's not a stable environment for a child. How does he expect to get more time with his kid when he can't guarantee he'll be home? I mean, he just admitted to having to leave last minute unexpectedly all the time. That can't look good for him IMO.

Yes, she was, which blew my mind! He has to be on a complete BPD/narcissistic break from reality to think it looks good for him to advertise that he can't keep a set schedule. He might as well be telling the courts, "I want what I want, when I want it, and it's her job to always be on standby to cater to my job." I have to believe he did not consult his attorney before hitting "send" on that one.

Sitting here chuckling. You just described my NPD (and probably sociopathic) exhusband's "parenting" style.  It could be summed up as I make more money than you, so I get to come and go as I please, and you are required to pick up the slack. And that's what I did for 20 years. He was a big one for travel at the last minute, business deals that suddenly came together (and then often fell apart) but needed his immediate attention. There were years when he was on the road for an annual total of 4 to 6 months.

I recently uncovered that he'd kept a secret home for at least a decade. I figure he was spending much of those business trips that he just had to go on being flexible in other ways.  :aaauuugh:

Stick to your guns. Parenting isn't a part time hobby that one picks up and puts down.

Quote from: openskyblue on February 27, 2019, 09:08:13 AM
Sitting here chuckling. You just described my NPD (and probably sociopathic) exhusband's "parenting" style.  It could be summed up as I make more money than you, so I get to come and go as I please, and you are required to pick up the slack. And that's what I did for 20 years. He was a big one for travel at the last minute, business deals that suddenly came together (and then often fell apart) but needed his immediate attention. There were years when he was on the road for an annual total of 4 to 6 months.

I recently uncovered that he'd kept a secret home for at least a decade. I figure he was spending much of those business trips that he just had to go on being flexible in other ways.  :aaauuugh:

Stick to your guns. Parenting isn't a part time hobby that one picks up and puts down.

In your experience, do the outsiders see the full picture? Still so terrified this will go to trial and the judge will be fooled, despite the evidence I have.

Would love some thoughts on this:

This week was our first week of actually setting a schedule as opposed to trying to juggle last minute requests from BPDex (Per the decree he only gets Wednesday but I have always allowed him extra time during the week but obviously I need to set some boundaries). We agreed to Monday, Thursday, Sunday this week. He was here Thursday (yesterday) and repeatedly told our 6 year old that he would be back tomorrow. I heard him each time and mentally noted but did not say anything, as it is not my responsibility to keep up with his schedule anymore.

My stomach was in knots as to whether he would actually show up today, and I'd have to have a confrontation, but he didn't show up.

I'm of course left to speculate what happened between last night and today to tip him off, but week ONE of scheduling before hand (I don't think it's too much to ask for him to let me know the Sunday prior to the week what extra time he's requesting) and he's already messing it up enough to tell our child the wrong days.

Remember, whatever you're doing will be what the Judge will be inclined to keep in place. 

Consistency, documented well, with reasons clear, and easy to decipher, are friends.

Be consistent.  Send clear messages.  Provide documentation that's straighforward, and easily understood.

For me, that's keeping the focus on the child, their mental health, and what's in their best interest. 

Kids flourish under structure, and consistent routines. 

You've done your best with this, despite the PD chaos, which you have well documented.

THIS JUDGE should KNOW you'll continue to do so, and continue to support the PD to be the best father he can be, bc you're the stable, kind supportive mother Judges like to meet, IME.

Don't focus on the PD chaos.  Focus on the mission, and how best to document it. 

KNOW that the PD will likely convince SOMEONE in a position of power to believe him.  And that's just something we know, and understand.... it doesn't drive us mad, or keep us despairing.... for long. 

We pull ourselves together, decide how to disprove whatever the PD DID, and we SEE ways to disprove that negative, just like we disprove the ones before,  and the ones that come after.  There will always be more, IME.

Having said that, remember that most everyone will SEE what the PD is, and sometimes it's BECAUSE of the lengths the PD went to in order to sway the one or two people he manipulated.

I didn't understand that at first.  Maybe even at second and third experiences, I didn't.  At some point you see the game, and the cadence, and you draw up high, remove the terror and emotion from it, and you get busy quicker, with more energy, and understanding of what needs doing.  You just get on, with less suffering, IME.

The PD will try to knock you off your game.  Make you scream, name call, act foolishly to take the focus OFF HIM. 

Just refuse to give him that.

Keep your power. 

Stay steady, calm, consistent mom.

During our latest round at the parenting facilitator as we wait for court, exBPD made the statement that he had started going to his psychiatrist for both psychiatry and psychology (this was when I explained to him to my knowledge, he was not compliant with the mental health facility's treatment plan whenever he was released. I asked him how often he went for psychotherapy. He said he sees this dr once every 3 months for both med management and therapy. Coincidentally, this dr is one of the places that is refusing to hand over, so after the visit I asked him, since he mentioned that was how he was staying compliant with his treatment plan, that he sign a release allowing me to see these records. Haven't heard back from him on that since I sent the email on Wednesday.

I mean. If this is the guy they are going to put on the stand to say "he's all better now," and when my concern is that he hasn't been going to therapy and is non-compliant with treatment, and he says "no actually he's helping me with that too," why NOT produce records that say that? I know speculation does no good, but I'm wondering if it's because he's lying or because he just wants everything to go to a judge. If he doesn't sign off, we have to have yet another hearing where a judge will most likely sign off on it anyway, since it's a central part of the case. Just bizarre. Making statements and not being willing to back it up.

Just keep calm, and carry on, anxiousmom.

The PD is claiming lots of things, and won't likely prove any of them. 

His best chance is to upset you so that you draw attention away from his lack of documentation. 

He wants to blow smoke, and manufacture confusion.

Don't let him. 

I agree with hhaw. Sounds like he is just trying to get you to doubt yourself. And if he has no facts to back anything up, then it doens't hold much weight (or shoudln't). Maybe ask your L if he or she can get the medical records. We had SD's law guardian get BM's records, then told us if anything was important or not. We couldn't do the investigation ourselves, but the law guardian had the authority to (maybe she got the ok from BM? I cannot remember for sure. It's been a while).

Just keep gathering evidence that shows how stable your environment is. Show you have your kid(s)'s best interest at heart. Show you try to communicate with your ex about parenting decisions and w how he reacts to what you say. He will try to distract you or get you upset IME, so don't let him. Stay calm in front of the judge. Show you can work with people and focus on the evidence you have.  Ask your L for what is important to use as evidence. IME some things we thought mattered didn't at all (it was so frustrating!).

The blood is being drawn. I don't know how these lawyers do this all the time and sleep at night. exBPDH has always, ALWAYS maintained that I am the best mom to our son, I even have a letter from him saying as much. But we've just started the discovery process, and the interrogatory questions are just unconscionable. "Name every person who has spent the night with you and your child in the house."
"Produce every text message since the final date of divorce you've exchanged with every member of your family ."
"Produce every text message since the final date of divorce you've exchanged with exBPD."
"Name every mental and physical health care provider you've seen since the divorce."

Using the court system to harass me. Throw a bunch of s*** at the wall and see if anything sticks, I guess.  Just maddening.

Deep breaths. Just because they ask those questions does not mean you have to answer them. This is textbook harassment — and easily circumvented by your lawyer, who will likely provide an written or verbal interrogatory response.

My exhusband wanted every email I had sent to anyone for the previous 5 years. I s**t you not! My lawyer simply responded that the question was overburdensome and I would not be providing that info. Believe me, by asking for this overreaching stuff, your husband and his lawyer are making themselves look bad to any judge.

Yup yup yup..... L will say overburdensome, and then the Judge will say it if opposing counsel doesn't agree.

It's unlikely you'll have to produce all they're asking for.

Pull those documents that are relevant, and keep moving with organization, and documenting your own case. 

This sounds so frustrating! I am sorry anxious mom. Does your ex have to show the same documentation too? Or is this just this list of what he wants  you to show? What does your L think of these questions?

An update:

We made enough progress in parenting facilitation that he agreed to push the trial date back, so we have until the end of August to reach an agreement.

I came up with a stair step plan to implement with a third party supervisor and also compliancy measures on his part (therapy and meds) that slowly, gradually, gives him what he wants (assuming the professionals don't see any issues that come up) which is standard possession. He said he doesn't think he needs supervision, but agreed to it because it was cheaper than court. (he has blown through the 15K that his mother gave him for this and is now very, very concerned about every single penny  :roll:)

He seems very anxious to stay out of court and reach an agreement to save money. However, two things have happened since we agreed to push the trial date out that are concerning:

1) He had previously agreed thru his attorney to sign a medical release form so that my attorney had access to his medical records as part of this case (his attorney seemed to understand if we had a hearing for this, the judge would order him to provide it anyway, so no point in wasting time). The psych office responded shortly after we decided to delay the trial date that exBPDh had called their office and revoked his consent for them to release the medical records. His lawyer, as of today, had no idea that he had revoked the release of the records.

2) They asked for a two week extension on discovery deadlines. We granted it. Now they've missed the extension deadline. Ex's L keeps trying to redirect to "it's my understanding the parties have reached an agreement and you are supposed to send it to me," but a deadline is a deadline. We still have a trial date and his L knows that. My L is strongly concerned that he is hiding something he does not want revealed through discovery or his records, and that it is not in my best interest to sign any agreement until I am able to see the discovery I am entitled to.

It's just an endless game of ping pong and I think I have whiplash from his always changing positions.  :stars:

I know you've heard this before, but it's my experience that it's better to keep the trial date and all discovery deadlines on schedule, no reprieves. It sounds like you tried to give your ex some leeway and a framework to be mire if a parent, but — in true PD fashion — punted allthat progress by failing to meet basic agreements (medical info access, discovery).

I'd strongly recommend that you take yourself out of the ping ping game, which will only close you money and aggravation. Go to trial, make him prove why he should have regular custody, and get this all finished. He will more than likely lose — and your life can go back to normal. 

I'm so glad you're getting closer and that you've come to a tentative agreement you can live with!

But I would echo what openskyblue said.

I think you're absolutely right to be concerned about both the discovery and the medical records issue. It sounds like if you don't have an agreement there, you don't have an agreement at all. My opinion is that you should stay strong on that point. He will probably try to act like it's no big deal - but it sounds like your gut is telling you that it is a big deal. Listen to that.

Can you file a motion in court to force him to turn these things over? I know it seems more adversarial than you'd like as you're trying to settle. But at least in DH's experience, nothing but hearings and the threat of an upcoming trial got his ex to be truly serious about settling.

At the end of the day, he is the one who took you to court. He is the one who won't even abide by the agreements that you've already made about how the process will work. I don't think you want to enter into another agreement with him when he won't even follow the ones you have about discovery and medical records!

If you haven't already, I would get a good sense from your lawyer about how you might fare at trial. You might decide to put up with his shenanigans because you're likely to get a worse deal from a judge. But you also might realize that you can get a much better deal at trial and it's not worth settling without these vital pieces of information.

Also, it sounds like his newfound money concern could be an asset to you. You might be able to use that as leverage to get him to be more reasonable. Just a thought.

At some point, after months and months of that ping pong, DH told his ex: Here is the agreement, sign it or don't and we'll go to trial. She signed it. But he was ready to go to trial at that point and was tired of her giving him the runaround. You might eventually need to give that sort of ultimatum and then drop your end of the rope before he ends up signing any agreement.

We had a conversation yesterday in which he pushed back on the discovery questions being answered and when I asked why he revoked the medical records release he said "I don't recall doing that," and gave some sketch answers there. Bottom line, I told him I had to have them. He was upset because he'd have to spend money and he thought we wouldn't have to spend anymore money on lawyers since we are agreeing. Then he asked if I would pay his attorney fees for his discovery. :stars:

Had to remind him multiple times during the conversation that I was not the one who chose to do it this way, he was. He said "but I thought we agreed to drop the case." (as if that is within my control at all) I said "the case is not dropped and until it is, you can choose to change your mind at any time so we still have to have your answers to discovery to prepare as if we are going to trial."  I told him I needed to know if that was going to be a dealbreaker. He said no, but he was clearly very agitated that I dare suggest he be responsible for holding himself to the standard he created by suing me.

He mentioned there should be "give and take." I said "sure, that's why I agreed to pay for half of your supervisor costs."

It was just a very bizarre turn of events. An outsider listening to the conversation would have the impression that I am the one who sued HIM out of the blue. He wants me to be responsible for his costs yet has no regard for the fact that I've spent all MY OWN money on this - money that I was saving for OUR SON.

He assured me that the answers would not turn up any new information I did not already know, but the way he has been obstructing us and dodging answers seems to indicate the opposite.

Who knows, but I do agree that I am in the drivers seat now that he's super concerned with every penny spent. Amazing how that happens once you run out of mommy's money! I could have bought a luxury car - fully paid for - with the amount I've spent on my attorney so far and now he's concerned with how expensive the process is. Just crazy.

Quote from: anxiousmom on May 22, 2019, 09:17:31 AM
He said "but I thought we agreed to drop the case."

:roll: Someone should tell him that he can actually drop the case at any time.

It sounds like you're on a very good, very strategic path. I'm really impressed with how you've handled this and I think ultimately your son benefits.

This is just brainstorming - I'm not saying you should do this necessarily - but I think you could actually use your ex not wanting to give you the documents + his unwillingness to spend more money to get an even better deal. You could say, okay, if you don't want to turn over these documents I'm only comfortable with indefinite supervised visitation. (Or whatever). Have your attorney write up a new document that is about halfway between what you wanted originally and where you compromised. That gives him two options, a. agree to even less that he already did or b. keep going with the agreement you already had, including turning over the documents. There's also an option c., which is take it to court, though it sounds like he really, really doesn't want to do that. Something to consider.

I do like the idea of those different options, however, the issue then becomes: my only chance to get this discovery evidence is now. If we make a new agreement that is officially submitted with the court, should we ever end up back in court, I can't get medical records from these past dates. A new agreement means a new date and I would only be able to use evidence or medical records that occurred since the latest agreement. So, if he IS hiding something that would come out in these medical records/discovery from date of divorce up to now, they'd be forever lost and unaccessible.

As of right now, I think I made it clear in our conversation that the options were: 1) he can follow through with his discovery answers and expense just as I was required to do, or 2) The discovery is a dealbreaker to him and we'll go to court.

The court option can't possibly make sense to him because if he is agitated about spending the money on discovery, he certainly doesn't want to spend it on a trial.

By the way, as an aside, it is just so freaking frustrating to me that I have spent SO much money, and yet, my lawyer has never been the one to make progress, I have. It was my conversations with him, my offering to meet with him, my handling of him that got him to reason with me. All that money and at the end of the day, I know how to deal with him better than anyone and was the one to do it, again.

I know what you mean, Anxious Mom, about not wanting a new agreement because then you can't use the old evidence. SO and I contemplated changing the custody agreement  but his L advised us that if we did so and BPDBM petitioned a new custody agreement we could only use the crap she's pulled since the new agreement as evidence against her. We never changed anything for that reason (they have joint-custody, visitation as agreed upon, with SO as the custodial guardian). We were afraid BM would be on her best behavior after we changed the agreement and we couldn't use anything from before against her, so we never filed for anything.

You ex must have been blinded by a temper tantrum when he refused those documents, so he feels dumb abut doing so so doesn't want to admit he made that choice. That must have been so frustrating for you to hear! I also wonder if by "I thought we were dropping the case" he really meant "I thought you decided to let me get what I want and stop fighting me"? When we were in court, BM told SD that it was all OUR fault that we were in court over custody and that it was OUR fault that SD had to talk to the law guardian when BM filed the petition! But that's how her mind works. It was our fault to her because we wouldn't agree to what she was petitioning, never mind the fact that she created the petition.  IMO the court system just doesn't know how to deal with cases like this (or really are not informed about low-functioning PDs). In the end it is so much money spent just because someone wants to feel in power. Until they get/almost get what they want and then they don't want it anymore. I can understand your frustration.

Maybe tell him you will be okay with dropping it if he releases the medical records to you. That is if you feel that would be just as helpful as getting the discovery answers. If you can somehow get all this info and then he drops the case, that would be huge for next time (fingers crossed there isn't a next time).

AM:

I think you should see the medical records before signing the Agreement.  I mean....  what IF there's something shocking in there?  What IF there's something you need to know before making any deal?

I despite the way PDs refuse to comply, while forcing us to jump through hoops. 

I'm thinking, whatever's in those records, they won't make going to court any happier for the PD. 

Well done handling things yourself. Attorneys are just tools to be wielded.  Expensive tools.

Good luck

Quote from: anxiousmom on May 22, 2019, 11:04:25 AM
By the way, as an aside, it is just so freaking frustrating to me that I have spent SO much money, and yet, my lawyer has never been the one to make progress, I have. It was my conversations with him, my offering to meet with him, my handling of him that got him to reason with me. All that money and at the end of the day, I know how to deal with him better than anyone and was the one to do it, again.

Oh my gosh I hear that so hard. DH drove the strategy from beginning to end. It seemed like at first his lawyer wanted to let the other side do endless delays. Then when the lawyer got fed up with BM's shenanigans (right as she was actually making moves toward being productive) DH had to insist that they send some more of the pointless stuff BM was asking for, rather than do what the lawyer wanted and push for hearing. He even wrote up some of the documents because boilerplate agreements are NOT specific enough. But (and now we, it's our money) spent soooo much money that could've been much better spent on the kids. Ultimately with the changes to child support he ended up saving more money than he spent over the course of the kids' lives (plus, y'know, the kids are actually INSURED which is worth it on its own) so I'm glad he had the lawyer. But damn is it expensive and that's without even going to trial!

Well this certainly got interesting:

EX BPDH is overdue by over a month now on his discovery answers. We are in the process of supervised visits. He has been "okay" with the supervisor so far when it comes to our child, but she has seen some troubling behavior in his interactions with her. We just had a parenting facilitation meeting last night in which he told me "you should have discovery, I already gave it to my attorney."

My attorney emailed his attorney asking him about it, saying "your client told mine that we should have discovery answers but I have not received from you. Please advise."

His L responded with, "My client seems to think they are in a good place right now and we would like to non-suit (drop) the case. That okay with your end?"

My L told me not to respond quickly, and that they could wait while we process all options.

I have a LOT to discuss with my L, including reimbursement of legal fees, but this certainly threw me for a loop. He throws me into this nightmare case, forces me to spend enough money to buy a luxury car, and instead of answering clearly about his discovery answers, they offer to drop the case?

In my PD experience, there is something going on and I don't trust it one bit.

Wowwww what an emotional roller coaster.

If he drops the case, could you come back and get those discovery answers if he re-opens the case again later, or if you need to take him back?

What is your gut telling you? Do you think he can't afford to keep going? Or he really doesn't want you to see what's in discovery? Or maybe once his lawyer saw it he said "there's no way you can prevail, your best hope is to drop it"?

What do you WANT to do next? Drop it or pursue fees and/or the records?

It all does seem very questionable. But in terms of strategy I think you should be patting yourself on the back. I mean it's so ridiculous that you went through all this expense and stress for ... literally no changes and he drops the case. My point is that it really sounds like you did everything right while your ex did everything wrong. And this out come is soooo much better than the alternative, which is your son spending more time with his unstable dad.

How frustrating. I would have a chat with my L to see what my legal options are. I'd want to know if there's anyway I could still have access to the discovery answers even if the case is dropped. Or can you see the answers and make a decision from there? Or if these answers can be on file somewhere in case your ex decides he wants custody again you can use them as evidence? I'd also want to see if there's anyway I could get financial reimbursement of some kind from my ex for the L charges, especially since it feels like he did all this for no reason. Either way, see what you r L thinks and go from there. Think about what you want for sure. :)

it's bitter-sweet in a way. The agreement remains as is... but all that freaking money.  ::) I am sorry and happy for you at the same time. It just feels weird how your ex is saying one thing and his L is saying something different (about the answers).