Out of the FOG

I guess some of you will have read my posts....

Visit Dad once a fortnight. He pushes and pushes for more like every week and more.

His excuse is he needs groceries. He doesn't - its all a scam. I've offered home delivery and he turns it down.
This weekend is the "week". He knows and puts the pressure on days before to make sure I go - "hope to see you sunday" etc.

I really want to get out of this "every two weeks come hell or high water". Sometimes I'm on call, sometimes I've got my own stuff on. Might seem mean to see my Dad less than once every two weeks but if he was nicer I'd visit more.

This weekend is the first one my wife hasn't worked for about a month.  Halloween is coming and got loads to sort out (my wifes loves halloween) My back is really bad at the moment (he knows this).

Last thing I feel like doing is visiting him. I'd like to spend time with my family and help with Halloween preparations. And rest my back! I just want to prove to him that every two weeks is not an emergency if I don't come.

Quote from: p123 on October 24, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
I really want to get out of this "every two weeks come hell or high water".

How are you going to handle this? What do you plan to say?

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on October 24, 2019, 09:54:20 AM

Quote from: p123 on October 24, 2019, 06:56:58 AM
I really want to get out of this "every two weeks come hell or high water".

How are you going to handle this? What do you plan to say?

One plan is to say "My back is bad, I can't drive" Bit of lie of course.

Here's an idea - don't lie and don't make excuses. No is really a complete sentence. So is "We've got plans for the weekend, so I'll see you next week." Tell him when you'll be there [or call] then do that, and outside that time you live your life with your family - without grinding dad into the dirt. Sitting around grousing and growling over his calls isn't helping anyone. You can limit the calls without the world coming to an end. You can turn off the phone, silence HIS calls/messages until later, send all calls straight to voicemail, etc. Really, maybe it's time to put some of that into practice so everyone gets some peace.

Sometimes I'm reminded of my grandmother "if you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all" when talking to mother, and I quietly end the calls when I've had enough. Sometimes I even have the presence of mind to not engage and end the call before it gets that bad! May the odds be ever in your favor.  :ninja:

I've been following your posts and I think you've come a long way!

I agree that you don't have to lie, but I also think it's OK to say things that aren't 100% accurate. You said your back is hurting - so if you use that as your "excuse" how is it a lie?

Stick to your guns and spend the weekend with your FOC. You deserve it, and your FOC deserves it too.

I'm in favor of not using illness or pain as an excuse, if it's not the primary reason.  I suggest, "No, Dad, I can't come this weekend."

I'd be direct (and I know how hard that is).  I'd tell him that you can't make it and that you are ordering the groceries for delivery. 

My great aunt with no children was this way about the groceries.  She was likely PD, too.  I'm thinking how we should have handled it with boundaries now that I am Out of the FOG.

Does he give you a list?  How do you know what to buy?  Is it she same every 2 weeks?  Does he pay or give you the money after?  Could you order the groceries to be delivered and tell him after the order is placed? 

I agree. You've come a long way, even if it doesn't feel like it.  Have you read "Boundaries" yet?  It might help to make the small steps you are already taking just a bit easier.

Place a grocery order for delivery and to heck with what he wants. Once you've placed the order you're done and let it go. If he refuses the delivery? If he lets the food sit on his porch until it rots? Not your problem.

I found once I stopped making excuses my boundaries got easier to enforce as I didn't have the additional guilt of the white lies.

It's hard to change a lifetime of behaviors. It sounds like you are doing great. "I cannot come. I already have plans." is all you need to say.

Depending on the situation..... and my mother's over the top reactions..... I think I would personally stick with a white lie.  If I have a cold I tell her it's the flu etc.  And you do have the bad back.  You do need to rest your back.  You don't want it to get worse.  Lugging groceries is a bad idea.  An already strained hurt back could leave you aching and in more pain.  Is it worth it for an NPD father who doesn't even need the groceries?  Does he want to ensure a visit from you and is it for control issues? 

I can only deal with my NPDm through LC now.  I'm slowly moving towards VLC but I'm weaning off of her in baby steps.   NPDm is a rager, she's volatile - getting worse as she ages.  She asks me to pick things up for her at the drugstore (a lot) as if it's an emergency - EVERY time.  Like Nyquil, Pepto Bismol - over the counter things.- each time I went out of my way to get something for her and then find out that she didn't really need it.  She forgot that she can't take Nyquil with the meds that she's on even though I questioned her about that before another useless trip to the store for her (The drug store is less than a block away from her place but I'd often FOG and go for her).

I'm the queen of the white lies when it comes to dealing with my NPDmom.... it's less stress for me in the long run (or short run coincidentally).  She'll blow up my phone with texts, she'll email, leave voicemails - and yes, I can ignore them but I'm on edge just knowing that she doesn't or won't stop.  It's like a hen - peck peck peck peck pecking until it drives you crazy.   It's all NPD mind games anyway, they love control. 

Why risk your back for nothing?  What's wrong with spending time with your FOC and making memories - especially when your wife loves Halloween.  You'll have a great time and have happy family time this weekend.  You only live once and you're not coming back - so why not seize the opportunity with this one measily little weekend for the wife and kids?  Your Dad has monopolized so much of your time - you've gone above and beyond - and for a man who can't / would never appreciate it anyway. 

Have fun this weekend with the family - be appreciated and .... um ... yes - I wholeheartedly vote for telling the old man about the bad back/can't drive reason.   Take some me/FOC time - it's call self care.    We all need a break so our NPD's don't run us into the ground.  (Quoting another poster here: You don't have to light yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.  Best advice - EVER!!)

P.S.  I've also parked my car on another street so NPDmom would leave me alone for a weekend.  I was at my stress breaking point and I knew it.  Oh, yeah - WORTH IT!!!!!  Sometimes you just want a little peace.

I wouldn't tell your dad anything other than you can't come, then do as Fiasco suggests - order groceries for him.  What he does with them  is his business - and that includes refusing delivery or letting them rot on the porch.  :yes:

The mistake you're making is the same one I made, and many of us have made:  expecting your dad to have any *empathy.*  You want a human reaction and you're not going to get one *because he doesn't CARE.*

You could be in a body cast and he won't care.  Your entire town could be taken out by Godzilla and he won't care!    The *only* thing he cares about is getting you over there to do his bidding and test the boundaries of what he can and can't get away with.  :roll:

Every now and then, I'd run litmus tests on Ray, just to be *certain* of what I was  dealing with - I already did this one, so you don't have to.   :bigwink:

I was nearly finished dehoarding Ray's after Didi died and had screwed up my back.  Nothing serious, but it was bugging and I was stiff.

I went over to his house - I forget why - and it's pretty obvious something is wrong with me.  I wasn't walking quite right and was a little slower than usual, being more careful with my movements.  Ray sees this and asks what's wrong, so I tell him the truth - I'd thrown out my back and I'd be okay eventually.

Without missing a beat, he says, "Come on, I need you to help move my desk down the stairs."  :blink:

What he meant was *I* was to move his desk down the stairs, by myself, while he stood there and screamed that I was doing it wrong and "helped" by making things worse!

The desk was large, heavy and even if my back was okay, I would have needed my DH to help move it.

I said, "I can't do that."  :ninja:

Ray immediately barked, "WHY!?"  :mad:

I gogged a bit.  "Didn't you hear me?  My back is screwed up."

He said, "So?  Go on, it won't take you long..."  :mad:

Okay - now I'm angry, so I said, "I am NOT moving your desk without DH to help me."  :ninja:

He says, "WHY!?"  :mad:

Oh my giddy...   :wacko:

I said, "Because it's too heavy.  I can't move it by myself."  :ninja:

He says, "But you moved all that other stuff!"  :mad:

I took a *deep* breath, determined not to blow my cork or   scream, "What the hell is WRONG with you!?" - and said, "I'm not moving your desk.  It will have to wait until I can get DH over here.  I have to go..."  :ninja:

I'd barely walked in the door and had to get the hell out of there, but Ray has other ideas.  He says, "How about my safe?"  :aaauuugh:

Are.  You.  Fucking.  Serious?  :stars:

The safe is also upstairs and weighs probably twice as much as the desk!  :roll:

I kept my face intentionally flat as I said, "Don't you remember we've had this conversation and that safe isn't going anywhere?"  :ninja:

He says, "WHY!?"  :mad:

STREWTH!  :doh:

I said, "It weighs too much.  We've talked about this.  You're going to have to get somebody in here to get it on a dolly and get it down the stairs.  DH and I don't have the ability to do that."  :ninja:

He says, "Well, who does?"  :mad:

I wanted to groan in frustration as I said, "I don't know.  You're going to have to call professional movers, I think."  :ninja:

He starts going on about moving the desk *again* and I know what's going on, because I know Ray and know how his mind works:  if I can't move both, I'm going to move that desk.  That's *his* idea of a compromise.   :jawdrop:

But I've had enough, have already mentally checked out and was in the act of LEAVING, just listening to him going on and on about needing his desk, he can't climb the stairs  - but now Ray is following me as I head toward the back door, jabbering at me as I throw back noncommittal sounds like, "Hmm..."  :ninja:

I stop at the back door, turn around and he says, "I can empty the desk if it helps."  :mad:

I smiled, buzzed a kiss somewhere near his cheek and said, "Bye."  :ninja:

I left him at the back door, screaming blue murder - and really didn't care. 

He was still screaming  as I backed out of the driveway.    I made mental note to ignore his calls for the next few weeks.  :ninja: :yes:

After that, I mostly stuck to, "NO" when I didn't want to do something, or couldn't, and would follow up, "WHY!?" with, "I just told you why.  I can't do it."  :ninja:

There were a few notable exceptions - more litmus tests he failed.  I don't really know why expected differently.  :roll:

No is a complete sentence.  Enjoy your Halloween with your wife and kids - and never mind about your dad.  :yes:

Once you tell him no and place the order for the groceries, I'd block his number until Tuesday.  :thumbup:

:hug:

Hi p123,

You are trying to break away from the expectations here.  In the past, you have complied with your dad's wishes.  That's set up expectations in his mind that YOU WILL DO THIS AND YOU WILL DO THAT.

So you have to gradually wean him off those expectations.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on October 24, 2019, 03:49:19 PM
...The mistake you're making is the same one I made, and many of us have made:  expecting your dad to have any *empathy.*  You want a human reaction and you're not going to get one *because he doesn't CARE.*

You could be in a body cast and he won't care.  Your entire town could be taken out by Godzilla and he won't care!    The *only* thing he cares about is getting you over there to do his bidding and test the boundaries of what he can and can't get away with.  :roll:

LMAO on the "you could be in a body cast and he won't care!"   :meh:  That's right!  Meh, bigtime.

Tell him you are busy and you can't come over.  Repeat the offer to have groceries delivered.  If he bucks at the cost and the idea, say "I'm totally out of suggestions, Dad.  I'm sure you can figure it out."  Then, "I've gotta go.  Talk to you later."

The Day of Reckoning has arrived, p123.  You have to start setting the boundaries if you want to not be a slave to your dad anymore.  Grab that courage and go!

What you are currently doing is not working.  You are enabling him by continuing to meet his demands.  Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.  And if he doesn't like it, more boundaries!   :yes:

Thanks all. I think I'm getting there slowly to be honest.
BUT hes fighting back big time.....

I'm totally aware now that he doesn't give a monkeys about me AT ALL. I know this. It helps when he displays this.

I mean a NORMAL person would say "Ah OK you look after yourself and dont worry about it" so it gives me strength when I see him doing the opposite.

I KNOW when I say "I'll get food delivered" he'll say "Its OK I can manage". Hes done this 10 times or so now and EVERY time I've called him out and said "so it wasn't urgent I visisted then". Then he forgets about it and same thing next week. Its like a toddler who forgets the rules!

BUT I'm not at the stage yet where I just say NO without explanation. WW3 will start. Not sure I'm quite ready for it just yet.

If he says he'll manage why not let him manage. He probably can do it himself. Plenty of people in his situation take care of themselves. He can do the shop and get it delivered himself. This is learned helplessness. What would happen if something serious happened to you? He's using it as a way to control you and keep you where he wants you.

I am not 100% there yet but I'm close to accepting that I am never going to get what I want from my family. They don't care about me, only how I fit in to their system. It's hard to look at our upbringings and see how bad they were and how poorly our family still treated us. You are doing good work. Keep moving forward.

Quote from: GettingOOTF on October 25, 2019, 06:04:49 AM
If he says he'll manage why not let him manage. He probably can do it himself. Plenty of people in his situation take care of themselves. He can do the shop and get it delivered himself. This is learned helplessness. What would happen if something serious happened to you? He's using it as a way to control you and keep you where he wants you.

I am not 100% there yet but I'm close to accepting that I am never going to get what I want from my family. They don't care about me, only how I fit in to their system. It's hard to look at our upbringings and see how bad they were and how poorly our family still treated us. You are doing good work. Keep moving forward.

Oh yes he doesn't need food at all. Its just a scam to get me to go there. I've called him out MANY times when hes said this.

Hes got a chest freezer 5% full. When I get him food he gives me a small list (£20-£25 or so). I always get more and he moans. Its not in his interest to fill the freezer up because then he loses one of his hooks in me. Mind you in the past, hes tried to play dumb by saying "but the food wont keep that long". Seriously frozen meals in the freezer wont keep two weeks !

Oh and he gets my brother to visit on a Saturday to get other food as well! (and he has meals on wheels anyway!)

Oh and its only the meals from Morrisons supermarket he likes. Guess what - theres not one within 10 miles of him hometown and theres one 1/2 mile from my house. Lucky that eh?

Yes many times when I've said "can't visit I'll get it delivered" hes said no for a variety reasons:-

1. "I've just checked and I'll manage until next week". I've pointed out MANY times "why is not urgent now then?"  Of course, its his way of making out that he can "just about manage" but I'd really better not miss next week because it will be urgent then.
2. "Don't want a stranger knocking the door". Really? Hope the postman never delivers anything then....
3. Don't want to pay for delivery. Its like £2 and I'll pay anyway. Certainly cheaper than me driving 50 miles or so!

Botton line is he is fighting against having groceries delivered. He thinks its a slippery slope. Once I've done it once he loses a bit of power.

I KNOW its all a scam. Its all about him forcing me to visit and I KNOW he gets pleasure knowing someone is doing something for him. Crazy or what?

Quote from: p123 on October 25, 2019, 03:17:06 AM
BUT I'm not at the stage yet where I just say NO without explanation. WW3 will start. Not sure I'm quite ready for it just yet.

This last paragraph is the hardest part.  I totally get it. It took me years of being ready.  Years.  I thought i could handle.  I thought I could make progress with her by changing my behavior.  Several therapists convinced me that i could train her to act differently. I finally read "Boundaries" and made the decision this spring.  I spent all summer dealing with the fall out.  For me it was worth it.

Last April I decided what I was going to say when  my uPDM was overstepping and totally undermining my parenting .  "That's ok.  Thanks.   I am DD's parent and I will take care of it."  It was a minor issue of teen DD talking back and a minor consequence for it.  I decided to say something that all of my adult friends can say to their parents without repercussions.  I was terrified to say it.  People without PD parents would think that was crazy.  I was shaking when I said it.  WW3 of insulting, crying, making threats to leave, telling my kids how mean I was, etc. all happened for telling uNPDm kindly that I would handle a minor situation with DD.   The nastiness got worse over a few other minor boundaries and by July there were medical emergencies and suicide threats.  Now I'm NC. 

I think our minds often go to the worst consequences our PDs have fished out or worse.  Everyone has had different levels of consequences.  I was even afraid of posting full details or the exact truth here for years for fear they would find me and punish me.  I'm pretty sure I started here by changing details of situations and the ages and genders of my kids.  I was terrified of consequences.  The consequences of setting boundaries and breaking things off with a PD boyfriend led to catastrophic consequences for me many years ago.  It can be scary to set boundaries. 

What does his WW3 look like?  Can you prepare yourself for it?  I found that WI and others were right.  Most PDs follow the same "game plan" of sorts.  The punishments ramp up in a similar way. 

It's easy for us to say to just order the groceries but we don't have to deal with the emotions of WW3.  What we can all do is guarantee is that you will feel better after WW3 and you come out healthier and stronger on the other side.

Sidney has a really good point:  what does WWIII look like?  What does it entail?  What are you so afraid will happen?  Is it what your father will do or say?

Only you know the answers to those questions - they vary from person to person.  :yes:

With me, I was afraid of the specters of my childhood:  unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, the all powerful PARENTS who MUST be obeyed - or ELSE there would be hell to pay!   :spooked:

I had to look at the situation objectively - I was no longer that frightened little girl, who had nowhere to hide.  I'd become an *adult* - and I wasn't stuck in a room with Didi and Ray, screaming at me, or Didi threatening suicide, while claiming everybody would blame me.  >:(

I lived on my own - and mostly communicated by phone.  If I heard anything I didn't like, I could hang up, or if Didi threatened suicide, I could call 911.  :yes:

Those fears of childhood were *empty* fears - Didi and Ray couldn't get to me, if *I didn't allow it.*  8-)

They'd also gotten older and were no longer the physical threats they'd once been.  In fact, *I'm* the most physically imposing, just because I'm younger!   :)

Didi and Ray had *words.*  That's ALL they had in their attempt to bring WWIII to my doorstep - angry words, words designed to make me pity them, orders barked at me that I never listened to.  Just words.

Didi would also have herself hospitalized for no reason, thinking I *should* come running - but I never did, because I knew what she was doing, and wasn't going to fall for it.   :no:

I was much more comfortable at my house, so I stayed here, instead - and posted about that stuff, often.  :yes:

Once you start looking into your fears and peeling back the layers, you might surprise yourself in finding those fears *seemed* a lot worse than the reality.

Sometimes - as I'm finding now - the biggest battles we have are in our own heads.

:hug:

One of Pete Walkers 13 Steps is to remind yourself that you are an adult now. You aren't a helpless child. This really helps me reframe my families attacks. As scary as they are they can't actually do anything to me and that fear is just a flashback from when I was a child.

As an adult you can walk away from WWIII. You can block your phone, you can leave your house or call the police. You are safe now and have tools to remove yourself from any situation.

Your father is going to do what he is going to do.  You cannot prepare him in anyway that will change his eventual reaction once he realizes he's lost control of you.

The bottom line is that your dad is not going to change.

The only variable in the equation is YOU.  You can decide to push back on his abuse.  You can decide not to give in to his whims.  You can decide you are not going to be the Scapegoat in this dysfunctional drama.  You can decide to make your own decisions, draw boundaries and not let his tantrums influence your decision.  You can decide he's not going to disrupt you and your family.  You can decide he's not going to ruin your Halloween, Christmas, or any other holiday.

The power rests with you.  And only you. 

Regarding WWIII?  Let him rage.  Let him rant.  Let him try to manufacture chaos by faking medical emergencies. 

You don't have to participate in that.  You can refuse to be a part of it, by refusing to give any response to his tirade.  Step outside of the drama.  Walk off the stage.

I have been in your shoes.  I have felt obligated, guilted and felt fear of my NM.  But once you realize that they are seriously mentally ill and that you cannot change them, and they are only going to continue to make your life a living hell, you can take back your power.  You can shut down the drama and refuse to be a part of it.  Scared?  Be scared.  But take action.  It's the only way you are going to have a life.  Remarking on this website about your father, talking about his antics and his bad behavior, saying you need to do this and you need to do that, but making excuses why you can't-- well, that's okay, we get it, but nothing will change in your life.  We can hold your hand, but you have to take the first step in setting boundaries.

Not trying to be harsh here, just letting you know that I've been there and in order to change your life, YOU have to change.  Because your brother won't and your dad won't. 

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on October 25, 2019, 10:40:02 PM
Sidney has a really good point:  what does WWIII look like?  What does it entail?  What are you so afraid will happen?  Is it what your father will do or say?

Only you know the answers to those questions - they vary from person to person.  :yes:

With me, I was afraid of the specters of my childhood:  unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray, the all powerful PARENTS who MUST be obeyed - or ELSE there would be hell to pay!   :spooked:

I had to look at the situation objectively - I was no longer that frightened little girl, who had nowhere to hide.  I'd become an *adult* - and I wasn't stuck in a room with Didi and Ray, screaming at me, or Didi threatening suicide, while claiming everybody would blame me.  >:(

I lived on my own - and mostly communicated by phone.  If I heard anything I didn't like, I could hang up, or if Didi threatened suicide, I could call 911.  :yes:

Those fears of childhood were *empty* fears - Didi and Ray couldn't get to me, if *I didn't allow it.*  8-)

They'd also gotten older and were no longer the physical threats they'd once been.  In fact, *I'm* the most physically imposing, just because I'm younger!   :)

Didi and Ray had *words.*  That's ALL they had in their attempt to bring WWIII to my doorstep - angry words, words designed to make me pity them, orders barked at me that I never listened to.  Just words.

Didi would also have herself hospitalized for no reason, thinking I *should* come running - but I never did, because I knew what she was doing, and wasn't going to fall for it.   :no:

I was much more comfortable at my house, so I stayed here, instead - and posted about that stuff, often.  :yes:

Once you start looking into your fears and peeling back the layers, you might surprise yourself in finding those fears *seemed* a lot worse than the reality.

Sometimes - as I'm finding now - the biggest battles we have are in our own heads.

:hug:

I've thought about this....

I would get a phone call literally every 5 minutes. I'd have to disconnect the phone. I'd get the same from my brother once dad told him - I'd have to block him.
Dad would even phone my work place if this didnt work.

Next stage would be an engineered admission to hospital. Then he'd get the hospital to call me (hes done this before).

But yes I can see what you mean.

Quote from: illogical on October 26, 2019, 06:38:44 PM
The bottom line is that your dad is not going to change.

The only variable in the equation is YOU.  You can decide to push back on his abuse.  You can decide not to give in to his whims.  You can decide you are not going to be the Scapegoat in this dysfunctional drama.  You can decide to make your own decisions, draw boundaries and not let his tantrums influence your decision.  You can decide he's not going to disrupt you and your family.  You can decide he's not going to ruin your Halloween, Christmas, or any other holiday.

The power rests with you.  And only you. 

Regarding WWIII?  Let him rage.  Let him rant.  Let him try to manufacture chaos by faking medical emergencies. 

You don't have to participate in that.  You can refuse to be a part of it, by refusing to give any response to his tirade.  Step outside of the drama.  Walk off the stage.

I have been in your shoes.  I have felt obligated, guilted and felt fear of my NM.  But once you realize that they are seriously mentally ill and that you cannot change them, and they are only going to continue to make your life a living hell, you can take back your power.  You can shut down the drama and refuse to be a part of it.  Scared?  Be scared.  But take action.  It's the only way you are going to have a life.  Remarking on this website about your father, talking about his antics and his bad behavior, saying you need to do this and you need to do that, but making excuses why you can't-- well, that's okay, we get it, but nothing will change in your life.  We can hold your hand, but you have to take the first step in setting boundaries.

Not trying to be harsh here, just letting you know that I've been there and in order to change your life, YOU have to change.  Because your brother won't and your dad won't.

thanks illogical.... Im getting there I think just a bit slowly.

Well, I've not phone him yet but I will shortly.
Decided I'm not going today. My back is just not right so why should I rush around?

Last phone call where I was telling him about my back I could almost hear the cogs clicking in his head thinking "how is this going to affect me?". He didn't say much he made it that obvious. At no point, did he offer ANY sympathy or say anything nice. As expected of course! Last thing he said was "hope to see you sunday". WHAT? How about hope you're back is better.

I also remembered last time I didn't go as planned. (I'd been on call and up all night). All I got then was "Oh dear, oh dear (fakes a bit of a funny turn) well what am I going to do about food?"
I remember then offering to get it delivered and he said "no its ok I'll manage"

But others on this forum have got me thinking, for the good. Its not my RESPONSIBILITY to ensure hes got food. I'm happy to help where I can and always have. BUT hes seems to think its my problem to sort. I'm beginning to see it certainly is not.

If I can't get his food, for whatever reason, then its his problem not mine.

Also, as I said he "has" got food there its all a lie, and he has "meals on wheels" 4/5 days a week. He could have that weekends too (they sort of deliver it friday to be microwaved) but he declines. wonder why? ;-)

Wish me luck for later! More importantly, its 9am here, Wales V SA in the rugby world cup semi-final on TV at 9am... (its in japan).

You do know you don't have to answer the phone if the hospital calls, right? And if you accidentally do, you have the right to say NO. They may try and guilt you but you can still say NO and hang up. Most people don't realize that at first. I know I sure didn't.  Once I received a phone call from the hospital starting at 5am every 15 minutes looking for a ride home for him. He literally lives 2 miles from the hospital but I am 25 miles away. This wasn't post surgical....this was him going to the ER in the middle of the night because he was constipated.  Wouldn't calling a cab make more sense?  I was smart enough not to answer that time but other times I wasn't and got called out. I learned from my mistakes.

How did the call go?

Ever consider telling him that you just don't WANT to go down rather than CAN'T? Seriously...what would WW3 look like?  What can he actually do to you?  You forget you have all the power. He needs you, not the other way around.  He is terrified that you will finally figure that one out.

Quote from: lkdrymom on October 27, 2019, 11:04:02 AM
You do know you don't have to answer the phone if the hospital calls, right? And if you accidentally do, you have the right to say NO. They may try and guilt you but you can still say NO and hang up. Most people don't realize that at first. I know I sure didn't.  Once I received a phone call from the hospital starting at 5am every 15 minutes looking for a ride home for him. He literally lives 2 miles from the hospital but I am 25 miles away. This wasn't post surgical....this was him going to the ER in the middle of the night because he was constipated.  Wouldn't calling a cab make more sense?  I was smart enough not to answer that time but other times I wasn't and got called out. I learned from my mistakes.

How did the call go?

Ever consider telling him that you just don't WANT to go down rather than CAN'T? Seriously...what would WW3 look like?  What can he actually do to you?  You forget you have all the power. He needs you, not the other way around.  He is terrified that you will finally figure that one out.

Well I didn't go. He sort of knew I think that I wasnt going so he was all nice. He does this - pushes and pushes then quickly withdraws before he goes to far and concentrates on next time. Last week I had "so you'll still be up sunday?", yesterday I had "hope you're backs ok". Hes looking at next weekend now.
Spoilt it a bit with his sarcastic comment that he does ALL THE TIME - "oh well keep in touch". I'm not seeing you for a few days not going around the world for a years.....

Yes I had that with hospital a few times. I went nuts once on the phone to a nurse who had a really bad attitude about it. Told her to do one. But yes hes done that to me too. Expected a life home - its like 5 miles. I was in work, 60 mins train ride, then 45 mins drive to the hospital. He REFUSED to get a taxi. In the end waitied 4 hours for patient transport because he wanted to try and make me feel guilty. Then blamed me it made him ill sitting on a plastic chair. Unlucky then.

not sure if I'm ready for WW3 just yet if I can help it.

Once my father called needing a ride to the ER.  Now you have to understand he uses the ER as a non emergency doctor visit.  I told him I could drop him off on my way home from work but I could not bring him home as I had things to do after work.  I made it very clear I was not coming back to get him.  So later that evening I had taken a sleeping pill.  It is dark and rainy out and I get a call fro the hospital telling me he is ready to be picked up.  I tell her I told him I would not be able to come and get him.  She refused to take NO for an answer. Stupid me went out. I should have told her I had taken a sleeping pill. That was the last time I fell for something like that. He refused to listen to me and just did what he wanted and he wanted me to pick him up.  You have to get to that point where you realize they really don't care about you to make it real easy to say NO.

What exactly would WW3 be?  Him throwing a hissy fit?  Doesn't he do that all the time anyway?

Quote from: lkdrymom on October 28, 2019, 06:00:12 AM
Once my father called needing a ride to the ER.  Now you have to understand he uses the ER as a non emergency doctor visit.  I told him I could drop him off on my way home from work but I could not bring him home as I had things to do after work.  I made it very clear I was not coming back to get him.  So later that evening I had taken a sleeping pill.  It is dark and rainy out and I get a call fro the hospital telling me he is ready to be picked up.  I tell her I told him I would not be able to come and get him.  She refused to take NO for an answer. Stupid me went out. I should have told her I had taken a sleeping pill. That was the last time I fell for something like that. He refused to listen to me and just did what he wanted and he wanted me to pick him up.  You have to get to that point where you realize they really don't care about you to make it real easy to say NO.

What exactly would WW3 be?  Him throwing a hissy fit?  Doesn't he do that all the time anyway?

At the moment, hes impossible to argue with never. Never loses his temper just keeps on and on and on.

You are under no obligation to argue with him. If he keeps on and on you can walk away/put the phone down.

You are in control here. It's very hard for many of us to accept that we have the control in these situations as we are used to being the helpless child, but we do have control and we are free to set our own boundaries.

You are doing great. Have you read any of Pete Walker's world? He has a lot available for free on his website.

Quote from: GettingOOTF on October 28, 2019, 11:00:41 AM
You are under no obligation to argue with him. If he keeps on and on you can walk away/put the phone down.

You are in control here. It's very hard for many of us to accept that we have the control in these situations as we are used to being the helpless child, but we do have control and we are free to set our own boundaries.

You are doing great. Have you read any of Pete Walker's world? He has a lot available for free on his website.

Yes this is true but I find unless you go NC, hes still there. Hes still there to go on and on.

Yes I know I could walk away etc. Its just I'm not brave enough to escalate it to that just yet. Its is working albeit slowly.

You are right, he will go on and on.  So you walk.  And you see him again and he goes on and on...and you walk.  It is a process.  Sooner or later he will figure it out and back off a bit.  I know what your are going through. I had to train my own father.  You don't even realize you are being taken advantage of until the one time you can't jump when they snap.  Then all heck breaks loose because you can't help them 'this one time"...they forget this is the 32nd time. You just made one big step in the right direction. Try not to back slide too much.

Hi p123,

It seems from your posts that you are caring what he thinks about your boundaries-- i.e., you are thinking you will go slow, tread carefully, and it won't cause a big blowup and things will be better.  Tell me if I've got this wrong.

As Spring Butterfly pointed out on another thread, boundaries are for you.  You set them, then you let the chips fall where they may.  You can't care what your dad thinks about them.  You can't care what his reaction will be. 

That's what I see is happening now with you.  You are setting boundaries and you think that you can change his behavior.  He will back off enough to let you live your life unencumbered.  Unfortunately, in PD World, it doesn't work that way.  You can't change your father one iota.  He is going to continue to push back on your boundaries-- whether it's playing The Ultimate Victim or creating chaos like a Hospital Emergency or continuing his never-ending demands on your time.  It's kinda like you are putting out brush fires here.  You put one out, then another crops up.  Then you put another out, then another crops up.

I'm not trying to say you need to go NC here.  That's not for everyone.  Just realize that as long as you engage with him-- i.e., remain in contact with him-- he will continue on doing the same ole same ole.  Nothing will change.  Sure, he's learned that when you get a bit assertive, he retreats to his shell and plays The Ultimate Victim-- "I can manage" or "Don't worry about me" or "Surely you'll be over next weekend".  But he's still manipulating you.  He's causing you to behave in a way you don't want to behave-- that' s manipulation. 

Right now I think you are "walking on eggshells".  I don't know if you are familiar with that term, but it means you are treading carefully, ever so lightly, so as not to upset your dad.  No good.  He will continue to pull your strings like The Puppetmaster he is.

You say you are "getting there" ever so slowly.  But nothing is going to change with your dad.  You are the only one who can change.  So you set your boundaries and let the chips fall.   You don't worry about what his reaction is going to be.  I hear over and over in your posts that "dad's like this" or "dad will do that" if "i do this."  You can't worry about that when you set boundaries.  You have to divorce yourself from caring about his reactions.  He won't ever change, no matter what you do. 

A lot of people on this forum-- not saying you in particular-- think that when they set boundaries, the other person will change.  They'll "behave".  No.  That's not ever the case.  A PD won't change.  Their personality disorder is woven through them.  It's an integral part of them.  It's not like a disease they can take medication for and get better. 

So the bottom line is, you decide to set a boundary based on your need to protect yourself (and your family) from further abuse.  You set that boundary and design a consequence if that boundary is trampled.  For example, you say "I can't come over this weekend."  Your dad keeps on and on pestering you when you will come over.  You say "I don't know, dad.  I told you, I can't come over this weekend."  He continues to pester you.  "When are you coming over?  Surely you can come in a couple of days."  You end the "circular conversation" which goes round and round the merry-go-round without any resolution, by saying "I'm not going to discuss this anymore, dad.  I'll talk to you later."

And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.

That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Quote from: illogical on October 28, 2019, 05:53:49 PM
Hi p123,

It seems from your posts that you are caring what he thinks about your boundaries-- i.e., you are thinking you will go slow, tread carefully, and it won't cause a big blowup and things will be better.  Tell me if I've got this wrong.

As Spring Butterfly pointed out on another thread, boundaries are for you.  You set them, then you let the chips fall where they may.  You can't care what your dad thinks about them.  You can't care what his reaction will be. 

That's what I see is happening now with you.  You are setting boundaries and you think that you can change his behavior.  He will back off enough to let you live your life unencumbered.  Unfortunately, in PD World, it doesn't work that way.  You can't change your father one iota.  He is going to continue to push back on your boundaries-- whether it's playing The Ultimate Victim or creating chaos like a Hospital Emergency or continuing his never-ending demands on your time.  It's kinda like you are putting out brush fires here.  You put one out, then another crops up.  Then you put another out, then another crops up.

I'm not trying to say you need to go NC here.  That's not for everyone.  Just realize that as long as you engage with him-- i.e., remain in contact with him-- he will continue on doing the same ole same ole.  Nothing will change.  Sure, he's learned that when you get a bit assertive, he retreats to his shell and plays The Ultimate Victim-- "I can manage" or "Don't worry about me" or "Surely you'll be over next weekend".  But he's still manipulating you.  He's causing you to behave in a way you don't want to behave-- that' s manipulation. 

Right now I think you are "walking on eggshells".  I don't know if you are familiar with that term, but it means you are treading carefully, ever so lightly, so as not to upset your dad.  No good.  He will continue to pull your strings like The Puppetmaster he is.

You say you are "getting there" ever so slowly.  But nothing is going to change with your dad.  You are the only one who can change.  So you set your boundaries and let the chips fall.   You don't worry about what his reaction is going to be.  I hear over and over in your posts that "dad's like this" or "dad will do that" if "i do this."  You can't worry about that when you set boundaries.  You have to divorce yourself from caring about his reactions.  He won't ever change, no matter what you do. 

A lot of people on this forum-- not saying you in particular-- think that when they set boundaries, the other person will change.  They'll "behave".  No.  That's not ever the case.  A PD won't change.  Their personality disorder is woven through them.  It's an integral part of them.  It's not like a disease they can take medication for and get better. 

So the bottom line is, you decide to set a boundary based on your need to protect yourself (and your family) from further abuse.  You set that boundary and design a consequence if that boundary is trampled.  For example, you say "I can't come over this weekend."  Your dad keeps on and on pestering you when you will come over.  You say "I don't know, dad.  I told you, I can't come over this weekend."  He continues to pester you.  "When are you coming over?  Surely you can come in a couple of days."  You end the "circular conversation" which goes round and round the merry-go-round without any resolution, by saying "I'm not going to discuss this anymore, dad.  I'll talk to you later."

And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.

That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Thanks illogical. Pretty spot on.... BUT I don't care what he thinks of my boundaries but I do care about what happens. I'm just not strong enough yet to deal with a massive fallout.

Yes I know he'll never change. But I've got better. Before I'd feel guilty etc now I don't care. I'm at the stage now where I do put up some boundaries, knowing that there wont be massive fallout and I dont care if he gets a little upset.

But I also know that I still let him get to me. I get annoyed at what he does. Probably shouldn't.

And yes I can't get away from jade at the moment. I guess Dad is so used to knowing exactly whats going on its hard to just say "I'm busy" to him.

Quote from: lkdrymom on October 28, 2019, 03:13:45 PM
You are right, he will go on and on.  So you walk.  And you see him again and he goes on and on...and you walk.  It is a process.  Sooner or later he will figure it out and back off a bit.  I know what your are going through. I had to train my own father.  You don't even realize you are being taken advantage of until the one time you can't jump when they snap.  Then all heck breaks loose because you can't help them 'this one time"...they forget this is the 32nd time. You just made one big step in the right direction. Try not to back slide too much.

Oh he has figured out that I'm up to something. Hence why hes being nice now.

I'm trying....

Quote from: p123 on October 29, 2019, 03:34:23 AM
Thanks illogical. Pretty spot on.... BUT I don't care what he thinks of my boundaries but I do care about what happens. I'm just not strong enough yet to deal with a massive fallout.

Yes I know he'll never change. But I've got better. Before I'd feel guilty etc now I don't care. I'm at the stage now where I do put up some boundaries, knowing that there wont be massive fallout and I dont care if he gets a little upset.

But I also know that I still let him get to me. I get annoyed at what he does. Probably shouldn't.

And yes I can't get away from jade at the moment. I guess Dad is so used to knowing exactly whats going on its hard to just say "I'm busy" to him.

It has been my experience that PDs do not compromise.  They only take, they don't give.  I think you are laboring under the impression that as long as you don't push too hard, as long as you are "reasonable" in your requests, as long as you have good reason for not going over to visit or not buy him groceries-- e.g., your back is bothering you, or your wife is working on Xmas Day-- your dad will "get over it", maybe be "a little upset", but you can deal with that.

The thing is, anything you do short of 100% compliance is not going to be acceptable to your dad.  And you are never going to know when that day will come where he will freak out over something you refused to do and that Hospital Emergency you dread will happen.  You may not be prepared for a "massive fallout", but it will likely happen.  And in the meantime, you are walking on eggshells, not knowing what the trigger will be.  Because your dad is not a normal, reasonable person.  He has a PD.  He only sees his own needs, not yours.  That's why he can't understand why you aren't available to serve him 24/7.  He's not capable of empathy, and that's why he has no concern for your needs.  Sure, he's learned that when his back is against the wall, it will serve him to throw you a breadcrumb-- "hope your back's okay", e.g.,-- but what he's really thinking is not that he's concerned about your welfare, but I hope p123's back is better so he can get me those groceries and come over to visit.  Right now he's "being nice", you say.  That's called a hoover.  It's designed to "suck you back in" to the dysfunctional web or dynamic.  Maybe you'll fall for that "bait" and incorrectly assume he's a caring father and "not so bad" and go back to being his servant 24/7. 

And so you go back, and the Cycle of Abuse repeats itself:  Your father makes a demand, you comply.  Your father makes another demand, you push back.  Your father plays The Victim, backs off a bit and sees if that will persuade you to comply.  You continue to push back, so he pulls The Hoover.  Okay, you give in, in order not to rock the boat, in order that there won't be a "massive fallout" as you call it-- i.e., him threatening self-harm or going to the hospital after a fall, real or faked.  And suddenly, you are right back to Square One.  He's got you running around six ways to Sunday attending to his needs.  Until you get angry and start to push back a little.  Rinse, lather and repeat.  That's The Cycle of Abuse.

My point here is that it doesn't matter if you are prepared for a "massive fallout" or not.  Once you start down that road of setting boundaries, it very well could happen, and happen at any point-- even if you are acting reasonably toward him.  So you get the call from the hospital that you need to come right away and tend to your dad.  And you get this phone call on Xmas Day, when you thought you had everything under control.  I'm not trying to paint an exaggerated negative picture here.  I'm saying that, based on my experience, that is a very likely scenario.

So how do you prepare for a "massive fallout"?  You recognize that it could happen at any moment, but you DON'T let it influence YOUR determination to have a life.  You don't let it influence your decisions regarding dealing with your dad.  You say "I'm not going over this weekend and if he manufactures an 'emergency', so be it." 

Regarding JADEing, the reason that's a bad idea is that it results in circular conversations.  No matter what reason or excuse you come up with that you won't be able to comply with your dad's unreasonable request, he will keep on and on with reasons why you should comply.  Hence a "circular conversation", or a conversation that goes round and round in circles and goes no where.  So you don't give him a reason why you can't come, you just say "I can't manage it."   

Because your dad "expects" an explanation, you feel you have to give him a reason.  Or what?  Massive fallout?  But as I said, "massive fallout" can happen at any time, once you start down the Boundary Road.  You don't let that fear prevent you from asserting your boundary.  You tell yourself, "If dad wants to generate chaos here because I refuse to comply with his request, let him go ahead.  If he wants to go to hospital, he can do that by himself."  And I promise you the sky won't fall.  And you won't be walking on eggshells anymore.  You will have confronted your fear and found out that you do have the strength to tell your dad "No" and not give him any reason for it.  You don't have to.  It's your life, not your dad's life, and you can choose to live it however you want.  And you can choose to spend your time however you want.   :yes:

Illogical. Yeh I agree. I KNOW that any sympathy I get off him is all leading to me being fit to do his calling.
Sometimes though he acts strangely as if hes disagreeing with himself. Let me explain.

He seems to get an idea in his head that this "should happen" or "he needs to do this" or "I need to do that" or "its ok if that happens".

He comes over xmas day (or did) and you can tell he hates it. In the past I told him I'll take you home early but he won't. Then he'll admit it was all a bit much for him (its busy in our house) but he felt he had to stay. He gets the idea is his head that xmas day he should be at his sons house.

This is part of the probem with the groceries. He won't look for an easier way because "someone should be helping him" so thats all he focuses on.

Its weird how he'll push something then let it go and be well over the top about it. If I say I can't visit daughter is ill, he'll say "oh thats ok of course, you need to look after her". Then 5 mins later "thats ok  again". Sometimes I just get the impression that one part of him is telling him I need to my duty and he needs to tell me but now I've got a good excuse the other part is ok to let me know. Its weird  sometimes.

Hes done it for holidays. He said strange things like "oh yes, you've been working hard, you've helped me a lot, yes its ok for you to have a break". Weird or what? As if hes talking himself into it being ok for him not to berate me about it.

Ns love attention.  They want the planets to revolve around them, The Sun, lol.  Maybe he came to your house on Xmas thinking everyone would fuss over him and, when they didn't, he got bored and wanted to go home. 

It also sounds like he enjoys bossing everyone around.  In addition to wanting everyone to orbit around them, Ns are control freaks.  To quote from your post, him saying "oh yes, you've been working hard, you've helped me a lot, yes it's okay for you to have a break" is something a master would say to their slave, lol.  I think he sees himself still in the parent role and you are the child/slave.  He does not recognize you as an independent adult.  Rather, you need for him to give you "permission" to take a break.

Any advice I gave my NM was rejected, because she wasn't going to have me, the Scapegoat Child, telling her, the Queen Bee, what to do.  She always had to be in charge.  And the spotlight always had to be on her, or she wasn't happy.  :no:

Quote from: illogical on October 29, 2019, 08:05:33 AM
Ns love attention.  They want the planets to revolve around them, The Sun, lol.  Maybe he came to your house on Xmas thinking everyone would fuss over him and, when they didn't, he got bored and wanted to go home. 

It also sounds like he enjoys bossing everyone around.  In addition to wanting everyone to orbit around them, Ns are control freaks.  To quote from your post, him saying "oh yes, you've been working hard, you've helped me a lot, yes it's okay for you to have a break" is something a master would say to their slave, lol.  I think he sees himself still in the parent role and you are the child/slave.  He does not recognize you as an independent adult.  Rather, you need for him to give you "permission" to take a break.

Any advice I gave my NM was rejected, because she wasn't going to have me, the Scapegoat Child, telling her, the Queen Bee, what to do.  She always had to be in charge.  And the spotlight always had to be on her, or she wasn't happy.  :no:

Yes exactly. His idea of the relationship we should have and what I want are completely different.

He wants to be at the top of the pyramid, dishing out advice, telling people what to do, getting them running around.

Dad never did much with his life. On his gravestone I'm going to write "to be on the safe side". Thats his motto for life. Never left the town where he was born, never tried to get a better job. Thats what hes like now. Small minded is not the word. Me on the other hand, went away to college, worked away from home, travellled europe with work, quite normal employment to set up my own company (dad hates the idea),

So when he gives me "advice" or tells me how it should be its generally narrow-minded rubbish. Honestly, its not even close to being anywhere near sensible. Even if there was any need to give it.

Quote from: illogical on October 28, 2019, 05:53:49 PM
And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.
That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Great post illogical. Very true that ignoring the tantrums, victimhood and poor me really do work. I've gotten to this point and am seeing my NPDm as an angry toddler in her reactions. I know she's going to pout, cry and gaslight in any situation she doesn't like. I know it and I just don't care anymore. Have at it lady, a ridiculous way for an 80+ year old woman to act but go for it.

Quote from: p123 on October 29, 2019, 09:05:38 AM
He wants to be at the top of the pyramid, dishing out advice, telling people what to do, getting them running around.

Dad never did much with his life. On his gravestone I'm going to write "to be on the safe side". Thats his motto for life. Never left the town where he was born, never tried to get a better job. Thats what hes like now.

I totally see this with the 2 "elder" PD's in my life (NF and PDMil).  They just want to fit in where they don't belong...ignoring themselves because they loathe who they are.  It is such a sad and unfulfilling way to live.  While both PDs are immigrants, they essentially landed and remained in one spot for decades, like that big jump was all they could do and everything else became about "being safe".  No risks, really because they were satisfied with the one big risk that they already took.  Meanwhile, everyone else around them takes risks every day because that is what most people do when they want to challenge and better themselves.  Yes, the PDs live in a very small world and they want all the attention they can get while they stand on this box because deep inside they ae so unhappy with their decisions...

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on October 29, 2019, 09:10:43 AM

Quote from: illogical on October 28, 2019, 05:53:49 PM
And the consequence for him trampling/not respecting your boundary is that you don't justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE) your answer.  Your answer is your answer, period.  And you don't give a rat's arse if he likes it or not.  You don't care about his reaction.  You do what you need to do to have a life free of him abusing you and burdening you and taking up all your time and draining you, and you ignore his victimhood, his tantrums-- really, any REACTION he has.
That's how you break The Cycle of Abuse.

Great post illogical. Very true that ignoring the tantrums, victimhood and poor me really do work. I've gotten to this point and am seeing my NPDm as an angry toddler in her reactions. I know she's going to pout, cry and gaslight in any situation she doesn't like. I know it and I just don't care anymore. Have at it lady, a ridiculous way for an 80+ year old woman to act but go for it.

Yep I can see that with Dad. I just look at him and he acts like a baby. Often I've offered him a solution but hes decided he doesnt like it so carry on.

Well this weekend.

Dad - "So are you coming Sunday, I'd like to go for a ride in the car".
Me -"No Dad I'm busy and my back is still bad so I'd rather not drive far"
Dad - "OK let me know" (What? I just did).

So I phone him late on Sunday (this works its too late then for me to visit).
Dad - "Oh so thought you'd have come to take me out"
Dad - "I've been stuck int he house all day"
Me - "Dad I told you I was busy"
Dad - "Doing what?"

Usual behaviour. Ignore what I said. Play the guilt card. Expect me to justify why I didnt do what he wanted. Jeez every time :-(

Good for you  for holding your boundaries. That's progress. You can't control his reaction and you know him enough to know what his reactions will be, but you can control your time and behaviour through consistent boundaries.

I found that as I got better at boundaries I was able to heal and see their behaviour for what it was. My family ate actually worse to me than they used to be but it bothers me far less as I know there is nothing they can do to me and my boundaries are firm. 

Quote from: p123 on November 11, 2019, 09:25:09 AM
Me - "Dad I told you I was busy"
Dad - "Doing what?"

Usual behaviour. Ignore what I said. Play the guilt card. Expect me to justify why I didnt do what he wanted. Jeez every time :-(

Yes, usual behavior. He's not reading websites on how to change but you are.

Now you see it for what it is, you get to adjust your reactions. His reactions are consistent and yours are changing. It's ok for him to whine and pout. It's what they do to try and guilt us into action. I acknowledge my mom does this and I've changed my reaction to it. With her it feels like a toddler reacting to simple life issues and I don't have time to care anymore.

It's ok to hear him, know he's waifing about your lack of action and then just....go about your life with your immediate family. Cut any phone call short when he goes on as usual. It's up to you to change you.

I'm happy that you didn't go over to his house on Sunday! I hope you enjoyed your day off.

Quote from: SunnyMeadow on November 11, 2019, 10:42:10 AM

Quote from: p123 on November 11, 2019, 09:25:09 AM
Me - "Dad I told you I was busy"
Dad - "Doing what?"

Usual behaviour. Ignore what I said. Play the guilt card. Expect me to justify why I didnt do what he wanted. Jeez every time :-(

Yes, usual behavior. He's not reading websites on how to change but you are.

Now you see it for what it is, you get to adjust your reactions. His reactions are consistent and yours are changing. It's ok for him to whine and pout. It's what they do to try and guilt us into action. I acknowledge my mom does this and I've changed my reaction to it. With her it feels like a toddler reacting to simple life issues and I don't have time to care anymore.

It's ok to hear him, know he's waifing about your lack of action and then just....go about your life with your immediate family. Cut any phone call short when he goes on as usual. It's up to you to change you.

I'm happy that you didn't go over to his house on Sunday! I hope you enjoyed your day off.

Sunny- yes I'm getting better. When he asks now I say "Im busy", when he tries "can you make an effort or I've been stuck in all week" I just ignore him.

Hes trying now "phone me early to let me know". Hes twigging that if I ignore him, then phone him sunday evening its too late. So he wants me to phone midday so hes get an extra bite at it and a chance to say "why? where are you going?"

I've now started to provide as little info as possible, He never argues but I'm sure he asks why because hes waiting for me to run out of excuses.

Saturday will be fun. This is my week on my brothers imagined Saturday ROTA. Not happening. I told him but he probably wont listen.

Well its going well. Not heard from brother since last time.....

Still go to Dads every other sunday and hes not moaned for a while. He may well do this coming weekend. This is the "set in stone" visit but Im busy all day. It is xmas after all and we're taking daughter to see santa. He won't like.

I'm thinking about whether to just say no it'll have to be three weeks this time or go on a friday evening or something. hmmm.

I did offer a solution to the betting issue on a saturday morning.  I'd be happy to do it online on betfair for him. BUT they dont take 10p (13c) bets and god forbid he changes his ideas. No too expensive.... Oh well do without then.

You wrote:

It is xmas after all and we're taking daughter to see santa. He won't like.

Of course he won't like it - so don't tell him.  Stick to being BUSY.  If asked what you're busy with, be a broken record.

"I just told you I'm busy..." - and change the subject immediately or end the call.  :ninja:

You wrote:

I'm thinking about whether to just say no it'll have to be three weeks this time or go on a friday evening or something. hmmm.

That's up to you, but you DECIDE and you DO.  You don't give him a choice or a say - you TELL him and then you DO.   :ninja:

Personally, I'd let him go 3 weeks to start weaning him off your visits - and it also makes you less dependable and reliable, which is *exactly* what you want to be.  8-)

I wouldn't answer any more than *one* of his calls before blocking him for the next couple of weeks, and anything he needs?  He can figure it out on his own or call your brother.

Oh - and just say NO to placing bets for him.  He wants to place bets?  He can figure out how to do it without your help.  :yes:

Why?  Unless you get money from him in advance (doubtful), you'll probably be fronting your own money, and he'll probably conveniently "forget" to pay you back - he doesn't have it this time, he'll catch you next time, you bet on the wrong horse (you didn't   :wacko:), you didn't listen to him or follow his directions - there will always be a reason why His Pseudo-Skint Waify Majesty will never be able to pay you back, while expecting you to keep placing bets FOR him.  :stars:

If you did it once, it is now your job - and he'll nickel and dime you to death, if you let him.  :roll:

The best way to prevent it is not to start in the first place - you're trying to make him let go of your pant leg.  Placing bets for him only tightens his grip and he'll have even MORE reason to want you over there more often!   :aaauuugh:

:hug:

Heres a classic from Dad. Another win for me because I did stand my ground.

Brother goes over on a Saturday am to go to the betting shop for Dad. (Brother lives a mile away)

Its 400 yards from his house - he wont go on his scooter because "they wont let me in the shop will they?" Have you asked. No. I even offered to call the betting shop to clear it with them. "No I dont want to take my scooter into the betting shop". Leave it outside then. "No I dont want to leave it on the pavement."

So anyway, I've had this "discussion" with both my brother and Dad. I'm not coming over Saturday am driving 25 miles each way because 1) My wife works so I take daughter to gymnastics classes and 2) Shes 6 I cant take into betting shop so hows that going to work? (It town centre so cant park outside). So this was two weeks ago - he just nodded.

Yesterday, "your brother is away, you'll HAVE to come over Saturday am to go to the betting shop for me". NO!!!!!!!!!!! So I said look Dad I'm happy to do the bet online for you but theres a minimum. OK.

So I found out - it'd be £8. Oh no he wont do that because he only likes to spend a fiver when he has a bet. So can I still come over?

So hang on now, I drive 50 miles round trip, 2 hours plus out of my day, my daughter misses her gymnastics so you don't have to spend £3 more than you wanted? OMG. Lets just say it took all my power to just say NO! Did you not listen the other week when I said it was not possible?

Hes not speaking to me now because I won't do this "one thing" for him. And apparently I need to tell my wife not to work Saturdays so she can have my daughter freeing me up to drive over to put his bet on. As if.

I'm sorry but putting money on the horses is not a basic human need. He annoys me so much sometimes with his selfishness.

Getting better at the straight NOs now....

To be honest, his requests are becoming more and more unreasonable which makes it easier for me if anything.

Quote from: WomanInterrupted on November 26, 2019, 05:04:29 PM

Why?  Unless you get money from him in advance (doubtful), you'll probably be fronting your own money, and he'll probably conveniently "forget" to pay you back - he doesn't have it this time, he'll catch you next time, you bet on the wrong horse (you didn't   :wacko:), you didn't listen to him or follow his directions - there will always be a reason why His Pseudo-Skint Waify Majesty will never be able to pay you back, while expecting you to keep placing bets FOR him.  :stars:

If you did it once, it is now your job - and he'll nickel and dime you to death, if you let him.  :roll:

The best way to prevent it is not to start in the first place - you're trying to make him let go of your pant leg.  Placing bets for him only tightens his grip and he'll have even MORE reason to want you over there more often!   :aaauuugh:

:hug:

Hmm yes tempted to let it go three weeks. Im a little sick of this "set in stone" every two weeks. There no need for it.
Hes ok with money - thats one thing. He will pay me straight away. Hes got plenty, he knows that - he wont risk giving me an excuse for not doing it.

Oh yes that another reason why he doesnt like the online bet idea. Same as the food. Its a way I could totally offline him ha ha

You're doing great! You're setting a boundary. He doesn't like it so will be mad. His issue not yours.

Once you start to step Out of the FOG you see how incredibly outrageous their demands are and how they can't take any interest or concern for you, your life, your family, your time, etc. It's truly all about them.

Stay strong. You're on the right path. You'll know you're making progress when you set a boundary and feel no guilt over it, and are unaffected by the backlash.

Quote from: Adrianna on November 27, 2019, 05:38:01 AM
You're doing great! You're setting a boundary. He doesn't like it so will be mad. His issue not yours.

Once you start to step Out of the FOG you see how incredibly outrageous their demands are and how they can't take any interest or concern for you, your life, your family, your time, etc. It's truly all about them.

Stay strong. You're on the right path. You'll know you're making progress when you set a boundary and feel no guilt over it, and are unaffected by the backlash.

Yes its just crazy when you think of what they want. I listed them down and then though of the alternatives and its just so crazy that he expects that.

I used to have a lot of guilt about things. I'd do "this one thing"  then it got more and more. Then it started to affect my family. Then when you step back you think "well there are other options why have I got to do it this way". Then he pushed back, he wanted it done this way. It was then I realised he didnt want or need these things he just wanted to be in control I guess.

Now when he demands these things, I offer alternatives which I can do. If he refuses then I think, OK, I've done my best.

Trouble is strangers and the rest of the family  see "this one thing" that I refuse to do. Its only when they see more or he starts on them (which he does) that they also realise.

Good for sticking to your boundaries!   :yahoo:

It's always going to be "just one thing."  :violin:

Always.

But when does "just one thing" stop?  How many  times have you done "just one thing" for him - only to have another "just one thing" piled on top of that?  :blink:

It never ends.  Your dad sees  each event as "just one thing" but I see it as death by 1,000 paper cuts - and only YOU can make the endless line of "just one thing" stop.  :yes:

If your dad is giving you the Silent Treat - GOOD.  Take advantage of it.  BASK in the silence and *enjoy* it - instead of feeling dread that he's angry with you, hopefully you're feeling elated that you're free, at least for the time being - and that freedom is worth fighting for!   8-)

It is *much* easier to say no when you're angry or annoyed - and  you're starting to get annoyed, which is *great!*  :yes:

Your eyes are really opening to how much he takes advantage of you and manipulates you!  >:(

Once you see it, you can't unsee it - and it makes it a lot easier to use your *boundaries.*  :ninja:

It's these small victories that inspire, and prove to us that yes, we CAN take our lives back, and it really is NOT all about what your dad wants or thinks he needs.

Small victories lead to more boundaries and saying no - and more Silent Treats, angry calls from your brother (block him if you need to), your father trying to blow up your phone (block him, too!), threats of suicide (call the authorities) and probably sudden emergencies and the need to go to the ER (if he won't call an ambulance, call one FOR him).

And yes - you can withstand anything your dad and brother throw at you with your newfound  boundaries and ability to say no - you really can!  :yes:

Any time your father "suggests" you tell your wife this or that, or sort her, or sort your son, you've got a couple of choices:

1.  "I'll take that under advisement, dad."  (Medium Chill)

2.  "It's not 1950.  I'm not going to do that."  (In other words, NO! - and what I'd say.)  :ninja:

Your father is NOT going to like any of this, but that's really not important.  You're not doing it to punish him, but reclaim *your* life and time - and so you can put your FOC first, where they belong.  :)

How much more time - and how many more holidays - are you willing to sacrifice to somebody who can only think of himself and his own needs, and doesn't care if it inconveniences you or completely disrupts your schedule, or how far you have to drive just to save him three quid.  :stars:

Yeah - that made TOTAL sense to me - NOT.  :evil2:

The only luck I had with unBPD Didi and unNPD Ray was pushing back on everything with an automatic NO.

Everything.  It didn't matter what it was - the answer was, "I can't do that."  "That's not possible."  "I'll see what I can do, but it's not looking good."  or "Call an ambulance."  :ninja:

Each, in their turn, was determined to become totally dependent on me for their care and each, in their turn, found out  that   just wasn't going to happen - and didn't, because I  forced the issue and wouldn't budge.  :ninja: :no:

I think you'll get to that point pretty quickly, because I think your dad is *really* going to raise the annoyance level of "just one thing" to new heights.  :roll:

Be prepared - and just keep saying no.   :yes:

Never mind what strangers think - they don't walk in your shoes or live your life.

:hug:

Yes, never mind what others think. They don't know the whole story. Not even a sniff of what you've been through.
I fell into the two -weekly Sundays with my dad. It became Set. In. Stone.
It was fair enough at first, because he had  just lost his wife, my mum. But after many months of it, it became very binding, and his  increasingly entitled behaviour suggested that all the attention wasn't helping him feel or act any better.

In short, as I continued to comply,  he became even more expectant and demanding.

I managed to break the pattern by gradually 'having things to do'( with the kids or work ).
I stretched it to three weeks, then a month. Then it flexed even more.   

Initially, he grumped about it loudly, was abrupt with me and he upped his sarcasm. He was horrible at times. I medium chilled all that, surfed  pressure waves demanding dates/ meals etc, meeting the onslaught with  quiet assertiveness. Time buyers-  ' Let me have a think and get back to you' , ' I think we have plans' or simply ' That day isn't good for me dad.'
I stood my ground also, using plenty of medium chill and ' broken record' -
then something interesting happened.
:groovey:
He backed off and backed down- got nicer! Began to express thanks and compliment me.
You see, it's sad but true, that we DO actually, hold all the cards.  :bigwink:

It's a magic trick that we think we don't!  :yeahthat:

When we were little, THEY did. As they got older, and we became adults, they gaslighted and fear mongered  and guilt tripped us into thinking nothing has changed.
But as soon as we assert ourselves, it's as if the crazy made -up bubble pops, and then  AMAZINGLY, they really will often take a lot less.
Because they don't want to end up with nothing.
And they fear they could.
I think deep down, they know they exploited their own power, when we were little, vulnerable and dependent upon them. So they feel now, that they have to be super hard on us, or we would do that too.
But we wouldn't, of course.

So they don't compromise, on ANYTHING.

Until we see if for what it is and say our first 'NO'.

It's the Wizard of Oz.
We always had the power.
Click them heels!

PS.
I agree withWI - place no more bets for him. I think he gets more kicks out of sending you to do it, than the actual bet itself!
It's the placing of you in a servile ( child?) role.

It reminds me when my dad told me with unfettered glee that he knew 'how I was was going to be spending my 60th birthday!'
He then proceeded to tell me that I was going to be driving him to and from a big city I hardly know and have never driven in, all for a hospital procedure he doesn't need.
I straightaway said 'nope'  dad, 'I'm not going to be doing that!'

He had to make other arrangements. And guess what, the sky didn't fall in.

Well, well it looks like I won this battle....

Hes phoned me and asked if I mind doing his bet online on Saturday for him. Even though its £8. Yes I will I said- it'll take 5 minutes.

Brother apparently is not happy. Dad had to mention he'd said "I don't see why he cant come up anyway" BUT I ignored that one. I've told them both more than once the reasons and that's the end of it.

But you're both right about the servitude. That's more important than the actual task itself. If he REALLY wanted to put a bet on he could ride his scooter the 400 yards to the shop. I guess hes settled for my 5 mins of doing something rather than 2 hours.

OK next thing - this weekend. I am busy this weekend both days. First weekend my wife hasnt worked for ages - we're taking daughter to see Santa at different places on each day. Nano - I'd forgotten it was set in stone sunday! He mentioned it the other day "you ARE coming to visit sunday aren't you?"

Bugger. No I can't make it. Trouble is the weekend after is looking even worse.

Im out with a friend Friday evening - its about 5 miles from where he lives. I'm toying with the idea of visiting then. Or go for the big 4 WEEKS gap? Then again it close to xmas then too! Trouble is Im going out with a friend and driving. Can I really take ANOTHER LECTURE of how I shouldn't go into a pub when I've got the car because I'll be tempted to drink drive and get arrested. Not sure my brain can cope with 20 mins of that rubbish!

WI - yes his attitude to my wife. She hates him at the moment. I've only told her about 10% of what hes said. I'm too scared to tell her what he says he expects her to do. She would exploded literally! I'm a bit scared :-) But nope you're right its 1952 in my Dads head - you're wife does what you say, cooks,cleans, does the laundry and thats it. And, as he told me the other day, in his day it worked better because you could give him a slap and it didn't hurt anyone. Jeez.....

Honestly, if I even laid a fingernail on my dear wife, I'd wake up to find she;d thought of a good use for the breadknife.

p123, I think that's great you held the line on your boundary!  I would be feeling pretty proud of that right now.   :cheers:

A comment about "servitude".  My NM (deceased now) wanted me to drive over to her house (about an hour away) after my dad died and take her grocery shopping.  This would have been the epitome of inefficient, as she would have to pick up every food item and weigh the pros and cons of buying it and I might still be there, at the market, years later, lol.  After I did this for her a few times, I figured out it was wasting vast amounts of my time.

So I gave her an alternative-- you read me the list of what you want over the phone and I'll combine it with my weekly shopping.  No, I wasn't going to her grocery, I was going to mine.  I would drop off the items on my way home (even though it was about an hour out of my way).  That was the deal.

She accepted it, reluctantly.  Then she wanted me to stay at her house and put everything away.  I said "No", I've got to get going before my items spoil, knowing full well she was capable of putting the items away.  Well, guess what?  A week went by and she called, saying she had gotten a neighbor to do her grocery shopping and I wasn't needed anymore! 

The lesson I learned from that was she was capable of doing way more than what she let on, and if I let myself, she would use me up.  Also, offering her a reasonable alternative was the way to go.  If she didn't take it, well, too bad.  I had nothing to feel guilty about. She just wanted me to basically be her companion.  And I didn't sign up for that. 

You are really making great progress here!  I think you are building confidence to jump over the "Xmas hurdle."  You can do it!

Quote from: illogical on November 28, 2019, 09:26:17 AM
p123, I think that's great you held the line on your boundary!  I would be feeling pretty proud of that right now.   :cheers:

A comment about "servitude".  My NM (deceased now) wanted me to drive over to her house (about an hour away) after my dad died and take her grocery shopping.  This would have been the epitome of inefficient, as she would have to pick up every food item and weigh the pros and cons of buying it and I might still be there, at the market, years later, lol.  After I did this for her a few times, I figured out it was wasting vast amounts of my time.

So I gave her an alternative-- you read me the list of what you want over the phone and I'll combine it with my weekly shopping.  No, I wasn't going to her grocery, I was going to mine.  I would drop off the items on my way home (even though it was about an hour out of my way).  That was the deal.

She accepted it, reluctantly.  Then she wanted me to stay at her house and put everything away.  I said "No", I've got to get going before my items spoil, knowing full well she was capable of putting the items away.  Well, guess what?  A week went by and she called, saying she had gotten a neighbor to do her grocery shopping and I wasn't needed anymore! 

The lesson I learned from that was she was capable of doing way more than what she let on, and if I let myself, she would use me up.  Also, offering her a reasonable alternative was the way to go.  If she didn't take it, well, too bad.  I had nothing to feel guilty about. She just wanted me to basically be her companion.  And I didn't sign up for that. 

You are really making great progress here!  I think you are building confidence to jump over the "Xmas hurdle."  You can do it!

Cheers illogical. An hour away - wow!

Dad is 30mins away. He doesnt come shopping he expects me to do it. He likes food from a certain supermarket and guess what, theres one 1/2 mile from my house but not one in his town. Funny that!

When I do it he gets annoyed if I spend more than £20. Really. He has "meals on wheels" so I know he probably only needs things once a month but he wont let it go.

Im at that stage now. It got to the point where I thought "theres a way easier way to achieve this why am I letting myself be blackmailed".
Ive started offering a solution or what I will do and then when he pushes back I just oh well I did my best.

This is actually your chance to really get out of that damn fog.
The four week gap might happen- and so what?
Dig in.
I've had a battle of wills over the summer. It's about my dad and his driving. He liked to drive over to our home (two hour round trip) -then stay for hours. We take him out, we bring him home to our house, he stays and stays.

And stays.

It's the complete opposite of what my parents used to do when I was at home when my kids were young and hubby worked VERY long hours. I'm talking 80 hours a week. I was lonely. That's not a complaint, but I do remember that's what happened. As a family then, we didn't live in each other's pockets and I didn't see a lot of them. They never had the kids overnight or even for an afternoon unless it was an emergency.
Moan over.
( they were very different grandparents when GC brother's child was born, but that's another story).

I love dad, but he never even draws breath when he's with us, for all of those hours, and it's all negative and arrogant.
I felt shattered and drained last time.

I worried about his driving himself at 87, so I said no to visits unless we picked him up and dropped him off.
It's a hassle I know but I just think he shouldn't now be driving on dual carriageways.

Result has been a massive summer sulk.

My gap since I've seen him?

It will be six months soon!
Six months free of negative chat and sarcasm. Yeah!

I'm sure my siblings are calling me all the names, but
I'm unbothered. He's finally given in and also has stopped his night driving.
Again, sky hasn't fallen in.
I got off that treadmill where I was put in competition with my sibs. They can't believe iti suppose,but what can they actually do?
I might get disinherited but it's honestly worth more to be emotionally healthy!

It's worked too. He's letting us pick him up Christmas Day and we will drop him home later on.
It does work- you just have to hold your nerve and prepare for the inevitable tanty/ silent treat/ rudeness and ( worst one)- the sustained, prolonged, repeated ad nausea insistence that you are wrong, and he is right. . :yeahthat:

Quote from: nanotech on November 28, 2019, 07:46:21 PM
It's worked too. He's letting us pick him up Christmas Day and we will drop him home later on.
It does work- you just have to hold your nerve and prepare for the inevitable tanty/ silent treat/ rudeness and ( worst one)- the sustained, prolonged, repeated ad nausea insistence that you are wrong, and he is right. . :yeahthat:

Glad its worked for you.....

Yeh I should let it go. Sometimes it just drains the life out of me.....

It's that first few times you say no and don't JADE. You don't try to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.
If you do you just end up giving them more meat to chew, more angles to attack you from.  More circular conversations develop, that's when you feel your life force being sucked out!
It took me ages to be able to tell dad ' No , I don't want to.' Then give no further explanation.
The more we reason with them, the LESS reasonable they are. It's a downward spiral- till we turn it on its head with Grey Rock and Broken Record assertiveness.
Good luck and just keep at it. Feel like the bad guy ( I did) but know that by not enabling him, you are being the best son to him.
He may not ever realise that but don't even seek the validation. The dysfunction thrives on the withholding of approval each time we disable or work against the enmeshment.

Quote from: nanotech on November 29, 2019, 06:58:47 PM
It's that first few times you say no and don't JADE. You don't try to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.
If you do you just end up giving them more meat to chew, more angles to attack you from.  More circular conversations develop, that's when you feel your life force being sucked out!
It took me ages to be able to tell dad ' No , I don't want to.' Then give no further explanation.
The more we reason with them, the LESS reasonable they are. It's a downward spiral- till we turn it on its head with Grey Rock and Broken Record assertiveness.
Good luck and just keep at it. Feel like the bad guy ( I did) but know that by not enabling him, you are being the best son to him.
He may not ever realise that but don't even seek the validation. The dysfunction thrives on the withholding of approval each time we disable or work against the enmeshment.

Not JADEing is so tough though. If I say "cant do that" I get "where you going etc etc"

Like you said it gives them info for another attack. If I say going x, I've got to be careful to say what time it ends or I'll; get "oh you could pop in afterwards then".

It feels really weird and a bit terrifying at first. Saying very little however, works a thousand times better than the detailed explanations we've been conditioned into giving them. But you have to say it firmly,  then repeat it.

You have to just say you've got an  appointment or a commitment or just 'plans'.
If he asks you what plans you just say oh, 'this and that'.  If he asks again, repeat like a broken record, ' this and that'. My dad gives up after he's asked three times. I thought he would rage at me when I first tried this. Nope.
You can also say  ' sorry, essential errands to run' or just say ' that time/ day won't work for me'. 
Etc
If he expresses disappointment, acknowledge his feelings, all the while repeating your decision of NO.

As in ' I can understand how you might feel that way, but that's my decision dad/ I won't be driving you/ I won't be seeing you then. '
Then talk about something else to close it down.
If he returns to it, say  firmly that you are not going back to that topic. Keep saying that. Say, 'That discussion is ended.'
It's really really hard at first but using  techniques like these and seeing them work is empowering and protecting too of course.

Quote from: nanotech on December 02, 2019, 06:50:46 PM
It feels really weird and a bit terrifying at first. Saying very little however, works a thousand times better than the detailed explanations we've been conditioned into giving them. But you have to say it firmly,  then repeat it.

You have to just say you've got an  appointment or a commitment or just 'plans'.
If he asks you what plans you just say oh, 'this and that'.  If he asks again, repeat like a broken record, ' this and that'. My dad gives up after he's asked three times. I thought he would rage at me when I first tried this. Nope.
You can also say  ' sorry, essential errands to run' or just say ' that time/ day won't work for me'. 
Etc
If he expresses disappointment, acknowledge his feelings, all the while repeating your decision of NO.

As in ' I can understand how you might feel that way, but that's my decision dad/ I won't be driving you/ I won't be seeing you then. '
Then talk about something else to close it down.
If he returns to it, say  firmly that you are not going back to that topic. Keep saying that. Say, 'That discussion is ended.'
It's really really hard at first but using  techniques like these and seeing them work is empowering and protecting too of course.

Yeh I've got to keep at it. I've tried "doing things with X". Im getting there slowly.

If I phone him, he ALWAYS asks what I've been doing that day (if its a sunday) because hes looking for info. Occasionally, he'll say "thought you would have popped in today" or "its been a nice day and I've been stuck in so thought you could have taken me out". Guilt attack. I just say "been busy".

In the past, before he got like this, I did just used to pop in at random if I was in the area. No more.

The ultimate is "I've been ill" and then "I've had to call the doctor out". Ummm so. Past experience has shown there nothing wrong with you.  Again, guilt trip "you need to check on me".

His ultimate was when I was away in Florida (he wasnt happy it was 3 weeks). He expected a phone call EVERY day. I said no its too difficult with time difference etc. and I'm not using my mobile when I'm out because its expensive. (It wasn't - get a THREE sim card for use in USA and its cheap). Anyway, first phone call - "I've been ill had to get the doctor, now don't worry I'm ok". I worried about 0.4 seconds. Of course, scam to get me to call him every day. 5 days later when I called him "where've you been?" Eh? In florida with my kids Dad. He wanted to know what time we left, what time we got home so he could work out if there was a timeslot I could have called him every day.

Well I did his bet on the horses for him online last Saturday. 5 mins of my time. Sorted.....

You can almost guess whats come this week? Hes taken a few days to think about it mind.

"Oh I don't know, you see people getting into debt betting on the internet, so not sure if I want to support that?" What its like saying, people are alcoholics so I'm never going into a bar!

"Its too much hassle to read the bets out over the phone" Arrgghhh not as much hassle as me driving 50 miles round trip, taking up almost 2 hours of my time matey!

So bottom line, "I don't think I'll bother again, if you can't come on Saturdays or your brother can't come to pop down the betting shop for me  I'll just have to miss out which will be a pity". You could almost hear the sad violins playing in the background. Hes not yet worked out I'm Out of the FOG (on this sort of thing at least). From now on its present a solution that works for me. if its a no then do without. No more doing pointless tasks for the sake of it.

I just said "OK up to you" - speak to you sunday then....... He wont be happy.

Hes not happy anyway. Keeps asking me how my back is - I know full well that its my "fitness to serve" that hes interested in rather than my well being in general. Asked me - "So you are coming up this weekend?" I was there last weekend. Hes fighting back strongly against my two week rule. It is Xmas as well, I am busy, but no allowance from Dad with that one.

Once again "No Im busy".

Man, you are hitting this out of the park.

Has your wife noticed?

I notice he likes to use the term "pop in" or "pop by" - which implies a very quick and easy stop on the way to something else you were doing. A 50 mile round trip isn't "popping by" but he sures likes to downplay that.

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 05, 2019, 08:13:15 AM
Man, you are hitting this out of the park.

Has your wife noticed?

I notice he likes to use the term "pop in" or "pop by" - which implies a very quick and easy stop on the way to something else you were doing. A 50 mile round trip isn't "popping by" but he sures likes to downplay that.

To be honest, my wife and I don't discuss any more. We've both agreed that his antics had to end and that I had to put the kids first - fair enough. Shes put up with it for hers - so I try not to tell her what hes up to these days because she gets so annoyed.

YES. "Pop in". As I've said before, sure he thinks I'm sitting there doing nothing all weekend thinking "nah cant be bothered". And Im sure he thinks I can detour from anywhere to "pop in". Hence the "10 mile Dad exclusion zone". Never admit to being within 10 miles or a visit is mandatory.

A visit pretty much takes up 2 hours of my time minimum. When my wife is working at the weekend (a lot) it means my 6 year old has to pretty much sit in the car/sit in his house for this time (remember he completely ignores her anyway). Shes a little angel but its boring for her. He doesnt care.

Can't blame your wife for not wanting the details anymore. Great that you can vent here instead.

I do hope that down the road - and it may take a while - that she might notice the changes in you. She might at some point notice that you go less often and are there for your FOC more, that you've reduced or eliminated "emergency" trips and stick with planned trips on your schedule, that you are less stressed on holidays and family trips, that you are not sucked into the drama as much, that your confidence is growing.

And even if she doesn't notice, well, others have!

Quote from: NumbLotus on December 05, 2019, 10:09:05 AM
Can't blame your wife for not wanting the details anymore. Great that you can vent here instead.

I do hope that down the road - and it may take a while - that she might notice the changes in you. She might at some point notice that you go less often and are there for your FOC more, that you've reduced or eliminated "emergency" trips and stick with planned trips on your schedule, that you are less stressed on holidays and family trips, that you are not sucked into the drama as much, that your confidence is growing.

And even if she doesn't notice, well, others have!

Oh shes noticed of course. I'm still married :-)