The pain of being Out of the FOG

[escapingman]

I am on the verge of falling deep into depression, getting Out of the FOG and seeing everyone for who they are have knocked me for six. The latest punch and what really got me was the report from the social worker, I was expecting it but I didn't expect me to get so down by it. My mother is not bothered one bit and just continue living her life with zero worries and my dad only caring about his PD spouse. I have some friends and new friends I am relying on support from, but I don't want to burden them or become to vulnerable. But the only one I can really process what happened with is DD, but I let her lead that as she has the same need to process the abuse. I am prioritising her and her needs, but it's hard to not have an adult to really speak to. The accusations from the social worker that I should not speak to DD about anything that is going on has really got my goat up as well, why should we don't speak about how DD was abused and the worries we have about GC being abused?

Being Out of the FOG with my FOO as well as STBX and her family has left me incredible lonely as I have no one to turn to. Has anyone else felt like this when leaving the FOG behind? It's as I would like to just take the pill like in the movie the Matrix to get back into the FOG and not know about the reality. Just live a clueless life and not realise what is going on. I know deep down I don't want this and how hurt I was by everybody, but I struggle with the acceptance of this new reality. I am using unhealthy coping strategies and trying to just soldier on, I have got praise from people around me for how well I am coping and how I act with dignity. I am not feeling I am coping well and I don't want to act with dignity, I want to tell the world what STBX is and what she did, but I just can't, I hope to be able to as I don't want her to get away what she did. With mum and dad I will just disengage, mum is so busy being busy with her life she isn't even noticing I have gone VLC with her. Dads PD spouse really upped her game against me when she realised I was on my knees and has unfriended me from social media and clearly is smearing me to dad. If I mention any of this to dad he will rage with me as he is so deep into the FOG with her.

How can I fight a war with STBX completely on my own? Yes I have my legal team but they are just my tool in this war. I am sinking here, I really am. Nothing gives me joy, I thought I was doing OK but the report last week really got to me.

[pianissimo]

Being Out of the FOG with my FOO as well as STBX and her family has left me incredible lonely as I have no one to turn to. Has anyone else felt like this when leaving the FOG behind? It's as I would like to just take the pill like in the movie the Matrix to get back into the FOG and not know about the reality. Just live a clueless life and not realise what is going on.

Hundred percent, including the analogy. I thought of Matrix too when I came Out of the FOG. In general, I feel exposed. It feels like there is nothing to hold on to. In my case, the FOG flipped some paradigms I didn't know I had. For example, I was seeking safety through status and being secure financially. But, experience showed these don't necessarily bring safety. Also, I have zero validation. My relationship with my father is based on checking if the other person is still alive. I went no contact with my mother. I made effort to keep parents out of my life, but, I sometimes wonder why I'm left to my own devices in such an extreme way. It sometimes feels like, parents are either in the middle of my business or they are completely out of it. It's like there is no middle ground. And, it feels like this alienation with parents is something that isolates me from other people. It makes me feel like I'm the odd person in the crowd. The positive side is, I'm realizing my job is actually counteracting the isolation. Perhaps I can find other ways that could fill the absence of a functional family. All this feels a bit like surviving if I'm honest. Not feeling safe is exhausting.

[SonofThunder]

Hi EM,

Sorry you are feeling lonely.  You wrote:

"How can I fight a war with STBX completely on my own? Yes I have my legal team but they are just my tool in this war."

Imo, fighting a war alone is what my stbx desires, as PD's are masters at isolating their victims in multiple ways;  turning family and friends against the nonPD, smear campaigns by twisting realities in believable ways, using all available resources at their disposal, using societal stigmas even in legal settings, the list goes on....  Possibly think back to when you were in the F.O.G. and you may find the tool of isolating to be very proactive then as well.  If so, you are isolated either way. 

Divorce is still a war imo, but a truth war.  Its also a legal method action for us non's to get on with living the rest of our lives.  Imo, truth will come out on its own, but will take time to evolve...a LOT of time.  Truth may not come through the legal channel at all, but rather by my stbx escalating actions/reactions over time, as I simply move on with living and my stbx's continuous running into my proper boundaries and my calm non-fighting, yet still waging a war. 

The more i get in the way in this process, the longer it will take for that truth to unveil itself... on its own.  Therefore my 'fight' in my truth war is to not fight at all, but rather positively fight with myself... pushing myself to get on with living. My stbx has zero control on me moving on with whatever resources i have available (resources may change +/- over time with divorce outcomes). 

I fully understand you have young kids involved.  If I did, a proactive two-sided war would cause my stbx to use my kid(s) as a tool to isolate and hurt me.  Even now, my adult children are targets in the attempted isolation.  But I understand that a one-sided war just cant wage on forever, and my stbx can only legally capture so much asset territory in the battle.  Therefore I always plan my 'getting on with living' using very frugal budgets; ones that I know i can sustain even after the legal portion is over and results are in regarding asset distribution and any alimony. 

So, if you theoretically could sideline the fight and be the calmest person in the mix at this time, what would you/could you legally and proactively do to get on with living?   For example:

-socialize with both men and women?
-simplify/declutter?
-simple yet frequent and cost effective travel?
-start a new hobby with others?
-positive focus on your work?
-other things?

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, I am having a meeting with my legal team tomorrow and unless they tell me some pretty good strategies that would almost guarantee victory I am going to tell them to accept the suggested arrangements. As you say, the longer this goes on the longer the real truth is hidden, STBX will not be able to maintain calm forever, she will snap and in the end an incident between her and the girls, where I am not present might change the whole dynamics if reported to the police. I am keen to move on and just disengage all contact with her including legal. Maybe I get to see GC if STBX thinks she has won and the threat of me taking her away ends. I have lots of plans on what to do in the future, I just need this chapter to close to be able to move onto that. I have to cut my message short as I have to leave, but I will try to expand later today.

Also thank you pianissimo for your reply.

[Cathial]

I am 40 y.o. now and spent almost 10 years Out of the FOG by myself. It was hard. I felt very lonely and at times depressed. Sometimes it felt like every day was a struggle. To make it, I took on the baby steps approach to stay focused on the important things. I focused on my job, my kids, and the joys I could find each day. Over the past few years, I have been able to delve back into my passions in life. I go fishing, coach sports teams, and exercise when time allows. I have found that doing the things I enjoy has helped me redirect my focus and I have found good friends to do these activities along side me. I am still aware of the fog and those who are still stuck, but I do not dwell there. I live my life outside of the fog and the longer you stay outside, the more people you will find outside too.

[Pepin]

I can relate to what you are going through....it is a complex grief with a lot of layers to work through.  Having to work through all the layers does seem lonely - because rather than living, we are in the process of surviving.  After coming Out of the FOG, I felt misplaced, tarnished and almost like an outcast.  When I look back over my progress, I am content knowing that continuing to move forward was the right thing to do.  And it has absolutely changed the way I examine people now because I don't want to do that again.  It's been incredibly therapeutic having to turn inward for answers about why things bother/trigger me.  While painful, I generally always find solace in knowing that it actually had nothing to do with me - and that I would never do to another being what was done to me.  The more grounded I have become, the easier it is to be me.  The more comfortable we are with ourselves, it seems that others do take notice.  Only then do we have the power to discern whether or not they get to be a part of our carefully crafted circle.  Experiences like this change us and there is no going back... 

[Breadroll]

So sorry you are going through this, like so many of us here.   One thing that helped me, words from one of the seasoned members of this site- was to be incredibly kind to yourself,  as if you are your own best friend. Because you are.
It does, eventually get better, not perfect, but better. Little chinks of light appear.
sometimes I need a big reminder when " slipping back" , it's a work in progress.
Strength to you

[mary_poppins]

I am on the verge of falling deep into depression, getting Out of the FOG and seeing everyone for who they are have knocked me for six. The latest punch and what really got me was the report from the social worker, I was expecting it but I didn't expect me to get so down by it. My mother is not bothered one bit and just continue living her life with zero worries and my dad only caring about his PD spouse. I have some friends and new friends I am relying on support from, but I don't want to burden them or become to vulnerable. But the only one I can really process what happened with is DD, but I let her lead that as she has the same need to process the abuse. I am prioritising her and her needs, but it's hard to not have an adult to really speak to. The accusations from the social worker that I should not speak to DD about anything that is going on has really got my goat up as well, why should we don't speak about how DD was abused and the worries we have about GC being abused?

Being Out of the FOG with my FOO as well as STBX and her family has left me incredible lonely as I have no one to turn to. Has anyone else felt like this when leaving the FOG behind? It's as I would like to just take the pill like in the movie the Matrix to get back into the FOG and not know about the reality. Just live a clueless life and not realise what is going on. I know deep down I don't want this and how hurt I was by everybody, but I struggle with the acceptance of this new reality. I am using unhealthy coping strategies and trying to just soldier on, I have got praise from people around me for how well I am coping and how I act with dignity. I am not feeling I am coping well and I don't want to act with dignity, I want to tell the world what STBX is and what she did, but I just can't, I hope to be able to as I don't want her to get away what she did. With mum and dad I will just disengage, mum is so busy being busy with her life she isn't even noticing I have gone VLC with her. Dads PD spouse really upped her game against me when she realised I was on my knees and has unfriended me from social media and clearly is smearing me to dad. If I mention any of this to dad he will rage with me as he is so deep into the FOG with her.

How can I fight a war with STBX completely on my own? Yes I have my legal team but they are just my tool in this war. I am sinking here, I really am. Nothing gives me joy, I thought I was doing OK but the report last week really got to me.

Yes it is painful. Very much so. I went into deep depression after my first NC from FOO. It is a lonely place since not many people decide to go NC with their fam no matter how toxic they are.

[escapingman]

Yes it is painful. Very much so. I went into deep depression after my first NC from FOO. It is a lonely place since not many people decide to go NC with their fam no matter how toxic they are.

I so want to tell my FOO what is going on in my life, but I know they will just upset me. It will be a one word sentence about what a shame things are like they are and then straight back to talking about themselves and the weather.  I can't do that anymore. My mother messaged me and asked my when my meeting is, the meeting she referred to was my court hearing and none of them have asked once how things where since that dreadful charade in August.

[NarcKiddo]

Yes, it is surprisingly painful.

In my case I am LC with my FOO and I have been doing therapy for a few months. Since starting to find my way Out of the FOG I've had a lot of emotional swings. The therapy feels like it may make things feel occasionally worse until I heal more. I am actually able to handle interactions with my FOO much better since starting therapy, so that is hugely beneficial, but processing the sheer nastiness of what has gone on for over half a century is really distressing at times.

[escapingman]

For me it was never any nastiness,  just complete ignorance of me and my feelings. I understand being abused is way worse, but I belive both leaves the same emotional damage. Sorting STBX has really opened my eyes about FOO. They are just not there for me, that's hard to take. But I think STBX came along for a reason, watch this video I stumbled across yesterday. It is powerful.

https://youtu.be/CNYmcRptIc4

[SonofThunder]

EM, will you please describe the video subject you linked, plus the author of the video.  That will assist me in deciding yes/no to viewing.  Thank you.

SoT

[escapingman]

EM, will you please describe the video subject you linked, plus the author of the video.  That will assist me in deciding yes/no to viewing.  Thank you.

SoT

Of course SoT, the author is MamiSoTrue. Noone I ever heard of but came up as a suggestion so I watched it. It is about that the Narc came into our life to wake us up. It is including quite a few references to God sending the Narc, but if you are a believer or not doesn't really matter in the context. I thought it was a very good video, but I am sure it's not everybody's cup of tea.

[NarcKiddo]

For me it was never any nastiness,  just complete ignorance of me and my feelings. I understand being abused is way worse, but I belive both leaves the same emotional damage.

Yes, I think there is the same amount of emotional damage. The nastiness I referred to in my experience is mostly emotional abuse, a lot of which was ignorance of me and my feelings. Like you, I am inclined to minimise and say other people's experience is worse, especially if they have suffered more physical types of abuse or obvious insults and slurs. But in many ways I think the sheer denial of someone as a human is at least as bad as the more overt abuse. And is in some ways harder to deal with because it is so easy to gaslight ourselves and doubt our own reality and feelings. I also think people with no experience of PDs would find it much easier to understand and empathise with people who can say to them "I am suffering because that person did that thing to me." Much harder if what was done was emotional abandonment such that we would pretty much have to articulate the whole story to someone, as one might to a therapist. But who is going to do that willingly? I've only just now plucked up the courage to start telling things to a therapist at the age of 54!

Haven't had time to check out your video yet.

[escapingman]

NarcKiddo, I think this is the reason why I never questioned anything being wrong when growing up. But I remember I was wishing for my parents to call me home at a certain time, for us to have quality time at home as my friends clearly had. When I was home I always just sat on my computer, I remember those extreme few times my dad played with me I was so happy. He was always to busy working and spending time with his dad, I was always left with my emotionally empty mother. I can see now, it was hurtful, and then came my sister a lot younger than me and my dad spent time with her all the time, he even took on coaching her sports team. That hurt to see, he now sees her all the time.

I really wanted to talk to someone after my hearing and talk about what happened, but I had no one, no one that could understand. I spoke to a few friends that gave great support, but no way could I tell them what truly happened as they would think I was mad. The only ones to really talk to that understands are you guys on this forum, but as it is public I have to hold back as I could easy be identified if I told to much.

Yesterday I felt great, today I am a bit depressed and lonely. But I have arranged to go out with a few friends for a few beers, I am looking forward to that. Just to get out the house and not sit her and being miserable.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi EM,

Hope you are doing ok today. Coming Out of the FOG is often a very painful process in the beginning. 

Your post has reminded me that I want to give a shout out to therapy and counselling during that time of coming Out of the FOG. What I found is that having an hour where you can tell someone the details of what you're going through, and its confidential because the therapist is bound professionally to keep it confidential, was very helpful for me when I had to work through memories of how much of my life had been used up by neglect, fear, obligation and guilt.

I realize some folks here have access to more options for therapists than others. So it is just a suggestion, that I found helped me out during the process. Even when I met with a counsellor who really wasn't trauma informed and didn't really help with the recovery piece directly - because they didn't have that skill set, it was still good for me to have an hour that week or that month where I knew I could say anything I needed to say about where I was with my Out of the FOG process.

Having someone in that chair nod in agreement when I said things like "getting away from her and going NC was my only option at that point" it really helped me.

(we all know that if you share that sort of personal details with people in your life, they might want to make it about them -  give their 2 cents on how they dealt with their PD or how they deal with their stressful times....counsellors don't do that (or shouldn't). They are paid to sit and listen to us, and to give us space to say what we need to say as we move through the process we are going through).

Going out with friends can be really helpful. There were so many times during my first few years Out of the FOG where I just needed to meet up with people to have a beer and a laugh and good conversation for a few hours about other aspects of life.  Hope you got out for that beer with your friends.

Trees

[SonofThunder]

Yesterday I felt great, today I am a bit depressed and lonely. But I have arranged to go out with a few friends for a few beers, I am looking forward to that. Just to get out the house and not sit her and being miserable.

Hello EM,

A tidbit of encouragement to you from my personal and business experiences. 

I always remind myself that during the experiences of the 'highs', i will enjoy them fully.  But I also remind myself that high's and wins are not regular occurrences. 

They are aptly named in comparative terms.  Coming down from a 'high' or a 'win' may be a negative experience, but that may only be because its not a regular and can be thought of as negative direction from the high.  In reality, I rarely go from high, directly to a low, or low straight to a high.  I regularly go to a high from level or a high, back down to a level plane.  Or I go low from level or come up from a low to a level plane. 

Therefore i remind myself that i spend most of my time in the level plane.  I desire to enjoy the highs/wins and also look forward to the lows/losses ending, and allow me return to the level plane. 

There can be a tendency imo, to allow myself emotionally to sink too far below level when coming down from a high, simply because I lose track of the reality of level, and I feel the rush of the past high, fading.  Im working hard to emotionally remind myself that level is the goal, because it is more sustainable long term.

This goal of level also allows me the reality of expectation of lows and highs along the way.  With that stated, i am also trying, by getting along with my life in new fashion, to try and bump my 'level' up a notch, by proactively choosing what I do with my time, choosing what works best for my MBTI personality type (INTJ), and also self protecting my efforts with very robust and enforced boundaries. 

You wrote:

"I really wanted to talk to someone after my hearing and talk about what happened, but I had no one, no one that could understand. I spoke to a few friends that gave great support, but no way could I tell them what truly happened as they would think I was mad. The only ones to really talk to that understands are you guys on this forum, but as it is public I have to hold back as I could easy be identified if I told to much."

Trees added the benefits of having a T, and being able to share deeply with a professional who understands.  In fact I believe your quoted paragraph above is accurate and wise.  I find it true in my life as well.

Therefore I do not desire to use family members or friends for a sounding board about my PD experiences.  I was in the F.O.G. while actually living with PD's, so why should I expect family members or friends, who are either in the F.O.G. themselves or have no experience with a PD, to understand my experiences as I move along in this difficult process, or even about my past experiences. 

Imo, having a fixed (not deviating from protocol) method of sharing the experiences related to dealing with PD's is healthy.  I don't desire a T at this time, so my fixed process is to journal my experiences, hindsight-study my journal entries to learn from and plan for future experiences.  I also have discussion with with my Out of the FOG friends, who are safe for me to discuss regarding, and also understand my experiences, and I hope i can contribute the same benefit to them. 

That allows any of my friends and family to firmly stay in the camp of purposefully NOT discussing my experiences related to PD, therefore gives me a definite and boundary'd break (i will not allow myself to discuss) when with/conversing with them. If they ask about my experiences related to my PD people, I state that I dont desire to discuss the subject, and I change the subject to something else. 

You also wrote:

".... he now sees her all the time."   

Could the reality that you dont see him in the same frequency, be to your advantage at this time, therefore be a positive statement, regarding you?  In the past, I thought that my FOO familial relationships (other than my PDf) could use improvement.  But I realize now that all my FOO are truly in the f.o.g. and each one manipulated in certain ways by the PD's, that cause them (unknowingly) to be vulnerable, and a negative for me in my experiences.  PD's will take very benign statements of others and truth-twist or aggrandize them, to make the statements manipulatively powerful for their own selfish predation needs toward me.

Therefore some energies of my own can be expensed, dealing with the truth-twists and aggrandizement that a PD utilized, and I desire to spend my energies in other ways.  So, I believe my prior-perceived notions about my FOO relationships, are actually now a benefit to me, because expectations of improvement don't exist and its safer for me this way. 

But circling the thought-wagon back around again, I must proactively share my PD experiences in the way that suits my personality type.  If I was a more social desiring personality, as you may be, then a T would be a very safe and understanding choice, as Trees alluded.  For me though, it will be journaling, self-reflection and this forum. 

Are you able to self mind-delegate the people in your life into specific relationship camps, to guide your expectations of those relationships in a level manner vs unrealistic highs and lows?   For example, the friends you had some beers with, may be the people who assist in your temporary and positive escape from the experiences with your stbx and FOO, by boundary'ing yourself to only subjects outside the stbx and foo experiences. This may be very helpful as you get on on with living and even explore the subject matter of your daydreams.

Your DD may be in a different category of camp, as she experiences some of these PD/FOO events with you.  But she also may desire you to be both a listening ear and a warm, loving, understanding dad-hug, but also a source for her to be able to explore her 'getting on with living'.  Things such as new or expanded hobbies, new clothes, new other?   GC may be in a totally different temporary relationship camp, because of her relationship connection with stbx, but still imo, needs the open door, open-arms, understanding, no-judgement, warm, loving dad arms if she desires to to come home. 

Your FOO would be a different camp altogether and like mine, possibly in the extremely boundary'd camp of avoid or only discuss very certain subjects that cannot be truth-twisted or aggrandized by the PD's. 

Your work related life can be an altogether different mind-camp, with different boundary rules you have in place for those in that camp.  My specific camp rules help me in a large way, to stay level, as they guide me in safe and purposeful, meaningful relationships. 

In conclusion, I'm joyed that you experienced the high of the hearing and day(s) that followed, and my hopes for you are one of expectation and understanding that high's/wins are not regular and therefore returning to level is expected.  Hopefully you may be able to not emotionally come down too far off a high and fall below level. 

Wishing you the best!

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks you trees and SoT,

It surely is a process and a journey, I am not sure a therapist would be the right thing right now. I am going to think about it, the last one I had was OK as I had someone to tell my stories - but towards the end it felt like I was educating her and didn't really have the need for it anymore. There are other items I rather spend my money on, like massages and joining a health club.

Going out with friends yesterday was great, they were very supportive about my situation and I shared a bit. We then went home to one of them for a couple of drinks, felt nice to be with normal people. The wife of one of them is one of those gossip girls so no doubt the story will quickly move around the neighbourhood (this is also quite deliberate by me and part of my masterplan).

I think following the court hearing my feelings are oscillating between high and low quite rapid. I need to try to calm them down and make them stabilise closer to the middle, or even better on the positive side.

I am slowly moving on with mine and DD's lives, GC can join us whenever she is ready, she knows that.

[Lookin 2 B Free]

When I was home I always just sat on my computer, I remember those extreme few times my dad played with me I was so happy. He was always to busy working and spending time with his dad, I was always left with my emotionally empty mother. I can see now, it was hurtful, and then came my sister a lot younger than me and my dad spent time with her all the time, he even took on coaching her sports team. That hurt to see, he now sees her all the time.

EM, it makes me so sad to hear this.  This kind of neglect, as well as being singled out to be ignored, is so terribly hurtful.  I did grow up with physical abuse.  But the emotional abuse of being treated like you are a nothing is probably what haunts me more frequently today than any other part of it.  It is so cruel to show one or more children love and attention and then single one out to ignore or treat them like dirt, as if they are worth nothing.  I hate to hear that you went through that.

There's a Dr. Jonice Webb who has been doing some work around childhood emotional neglect and its effects.  She focusses on cases where the neglect is not nearly as bad as yours, but there are still some interesting insights.

It seems you have learned to overcome the message that you are not worth any effort or care,  so you are willing to take care of yourself.  That's the best medicine.

[escapingman]

Thanks lookin, I read Jonice Webbs book Running on empty and it was an eye opener. It gave me a lot of insight and advice on how to process the emotional neglect. I always thought I had a good childhood, that is what makes it extra difficult. I really can see how it affected me, already as a child but also now as an adult. With those boundaries it was no wonder I ended up marrying a narc. What really attracted me to my STBX was that she had emotions, lots of them, I had never experienced emotions like that and it got me hooked. She spent hours with me, just her and me, no one ever spent time just with me and I felt so privileged. However, what happened next is history and nothing to dwell over. I am grateful in the sense that STBX woke me up and thought me to put myself first, which is what I am doing now - or at least working towards.

I am sorry  you grew up with physical abuse as well as emotional abuse. I hope you are recovering in a good way from it.