Recent posts
#91
Going No Contact with a PD Parent / Those, who have been NC 5 yrs ...
Last post by My New Life - April 30, 2024, 01:37:49 PMThis month marks five years that I have been NC with an uNPD and uBPD parent.
My experience going NC with a parent, is that society, most family, and a lot of therapists don't really get it.
And it is isolating.
Even within the small community of people, who have gone NC with a parent, the circumstances differ greatly, making true connection, sometimes difficult. The experience of those, who have gone NC with a parent, who ignored them - not trying to meet any of their needs; differs significantly with the experience of those, who were enmeshed by a Narcissist and lost ownership of their own lives; which differs significantly with the experience of those who went NC with an abusive Narcissist. There are some similarities to all of our experiences, but the emotional landscape is always unique.
I believe people, including my spouse and adult children, perceive me differently - now, that they know I am capable of amputating a diseased relationship from my life. A little on edge - afraid I might do the same with them.
The only prize, for facing the pain and isolation of going NC, is freedom from the chaos of crazy. Which is a good thing. A necessary thing. However, almost immediately, begins the work of discovering who you are, outside of the Land of Crazy. And this does not always feel like a reward. It is tiresome work, that often results in more questions than answers.
I've worked all my life, to heal. The first decades, I worked to heal myself, by saving her. The past five years, I have acknowledged I cannot save her, so I have just worked to heal myself.
Even as I do this work, I question my decision to go NC daily (and I know I question myself because she didn't question herself - she was always right, and I never wanted to be like her). Certainly, as she descends into dementia and other medical issues, I question if my decision is a moral one.
It is a lot to carry. I am grateful I have a place, like this forum, to write it out, so it does not eat me whole. To know that while our experiences differ, we are allowed to voice our experiences, and be heard, without a lot of judgement.
Those of you, who have been NC, 5 years or more; what are your experiences, or nuggets of wisdom?
My experience going NC with a parent, is that society, most family, and a lot of therapists don't really get it.
And it is isolating.
Even within the small community of people, who have gone NC with a parent, the circumstances differ greatly, making true connection, sometimes difficult. The experience of those, who have gone NC with a parent, who ignored them - not trying to meet any of their needs; differs significantly with the experience of those, who were enmeshed by a Narcissist and lost ownership of their own lives; which differs significantly with the experience of those who went NC with an abusive Narcissist. There are some similarities to all of our experiences, but the emotional landscape is always unique.
I believe people, including my spouse and adult children, perceive me differently - now, that they know I am capable of amputating a diseased relationship from my life. A little on edge - afraid I might do the same with them.
The only prize, for facing the pain and isolation of going NC, is freedom from the chaos of crazy. Which is a good thing. A necessary thing. However, almost immediately, begins the work of discovering who you are, outside of the Land of Crazy. And this does not always feel like a reward. It is tiresome work, that often results in more questions than answers.
I've worked all my life, to heal. The first decades, I worked to heal myself, by saving her. The past five years, I have acknowledged I cannot save her, so I have just worked to heal myself.
Even as I do this work, I question my decision to go NC daily (and I know I question myself because she didn't question herself - she was always right, and I never wanted to be like her). Certainly, as she descends into dementia and other medical issues, I question if my decision is a moral one.
It is a lot to carry. I am grateful I have a place, like this forum, to write it out, so it does not eat me whole. To know that while our experiences differ, we are allowed to voice our experiences, and be heard, without a lot of judgement.
Those of you, who have been NC, 5 years or more; what are your experiences, or nuggets of wisdom?
#92
Working on Us / Re: The toll of chronic invali...
Last post by Invisiblewoman - April 30, 2024, 11:36:13 AMQuoteIf we don't grieve that fact, we can remain quite stuck. If we do allow it to register (slowly, mine took several years) then eventually, we individuate from them in a way that was never possible when we were kids. We get the "I'm truly safe now" feeling that we have been waiting a lifetime to feel. Having a therapist to explore emotional safety with is very helpful. That would be my advice on how to make the process less confusing, is to work with a therapist who knows how to make you feel truly safe. That for me, was like going to the gym - working the "I'm safe now" muscle so that it grows. I always had a part inside me that knew my parents were not safe - what I needed was to build trust with that part, and let her talk to me, and let her anger at her parents have a safe place to get expressed. All of that is much easier if you've got a therapist who knows how to guide that process.
The videos from Patrick Teahan on inner child work (all on youtube for free) gave me much needed language and validation. My inner child knows a lot, I "just" had to listen to her. Your inner child knows a lot too.
There is a part of me that still doesn't know how to feel safe in the world. I do struggle with social anxiety and I think a lot of that stems from the abuse because if the ones closest to you can go from being sweet and kind to a monster next, then really anybody is capable of that and you might not always see it coming.
Yet at the same time I am slow to give myself credit because I did handle this round of manipulation as well as I could; I did not attack; they attacked and they showed themselves. It took me a while to not see their words as cutting, and not internalize or blame myself for their reaction. Surely if they reacted that way, I must be unreasonable then? I was ready to take responsibility but it felt like they never would. In hindsight, they wanted me to feel responsible for their emotions, or any discomfort I caused them, with questioning them, or deflecting their boundary violations. They turned their boundary violations into something I had done to them. That is the very essence of what narcissistic people do; they try to trigger you into "fixing" the relationship, and into constantly having to make it up to them, to give them supply while they give nothing in return.
I was just tired of the manipulation. Oddly enough, my mom said if she screws up with me, I can hold her accountable like an adult. I went no contact when she screwed up. It hurt real bad too, but I felt like her being actually accountable for her actions, would result in a honeymoon period, followed by her manipulating and deliberately stressing me out further down the road. It hurt but she certainly ended up burning some bridges with other people, thus showing them that she wasn't exactly a victim of me.
She could say sorry, but often that sorry was followed by a "but" and then her making excuses for causing a situation and shifting blame onto me. Going no contact with my mom was harder than going no contact with my aunt. I was less close to my aunt, and didn't know all the machinations of her mind, and how she saw me as I entered into a closer relationship. When the skewed power dynamics became apparent, I felt it in my best interests to leave. She literally almost played the same hand my mom played, just like when my mother's abuse initially escalated towards me in my teens. She played my brother off of me, and gave him all the power over communication, and had him "tell" on me for anything I said; and if I said anything and tried to hold them accountable and not accept their manipulation, they lashed out and called me crazy and tried to gaslight me.
I just had a sense that I felt wronged and invalidated and that my sharing my feelings was somehow crazy with them. You may have felt that too, where you just know you are not allowed to be on common ground with them, where they deliberately skew power dynamics towards their favour, and no amount of reasoning or trying to work it out will matter. The rules were never fair so why bother playing these games with them?
#93
Common Behaviors / Re: Accusing you of the very t...
Last post by Queenfrog - April 30, 2024, 11:03:07 AMYes, projection. I'm trying to remember to feel sorry for my spouse even when he's being cold or mean. It's no wonder he can't sympathize or understand my need to spend family time or grieve my father's death, because his parents were wolves who abandoned him at the tender age of 14. He accuses my parents of being self-centered takers (narcissists being the current buzzword) because that's what his parents were. No, really - they were thieves. I think somewhere inside it is painful for him to witness my harmonious family in action -- but he would never admit that because he has to be the tough self-sufficient one. It's sad.
#94
Chosen Relationships / Re: Manipulation of self and d...
Last post by bloomie - April 30, 2024, 09:55:10 AMYikes! What an unexpected turn of events. I am so sorry as this has to be hurtful on so many levels.
It is a terrible position to be put in for a spouse to speak of us/to us in a derogatory manner both privately and in front of others. It hurts my heart for you to be put in this position.
I only see two options when something like this happens. Excuse yourself from the conversation and address it privately later or address it calmly and firmly in the moment. Exercising our boundaries and living out our boundaries under challenging circumstances.
When we force someone who didn't intend, or possibly even think about, acknowledging their poor treatment of us to do that with our kids/family members it almost always is going to stir things up further and possibly force side taking, ime.
Unintentionally, you may have pushed your daughter further into the middle of something she doesn't understand, doesn't know the context of, and probably doesn't want anything to do with by insisting your husband apologize to you in front of her and then trying to offer context for the reason this was such breach that you felt you needed to exit the home for a while.
May I gently say... stating your case by detailing the time of calls, etc., to your daughter has to be really uncomfortable for her and she may not see all of this in the same light you do. Further putting your connection with her at risk.
If you can find a way to pivot back to the issue of the agreement having been broken with your husband and maybe give this a cooling off period before you say or do anything further it may help you regroup.
I have long held the view that my adult children are wise enough to, over time, see both myself and their father pretty accurately having lived up close and personal with us both.
Do they see everything and know the long history of certain difficulties that may explain certain responses better or shed more favorable light on one or the other of us? No. And that has been, and will continue to be a conscious choice because in a long marriage with a disordered partner, there are patterns and experiences, agreements, etc., that are complex and highly personal.
Do they know enough to have some context and understanding of some of the struggles we have had and continue to experience. Yes. Finding that balance and giving space for our adult children to, over time, determine their own opinions and views based on our observable behaviors is what has worked best for us.
How are you doing today?
It is a terrible position to be put in for a spouse to speak of us/to us in a derogatory manner both privately and in front of others. It hurts my heart for you to be put in this position.
I only see two options when something like this happens. Excuse yourself from the conversation and address it privately later or address it calmly and firmly in the moment. Exercising our boundaries and living out our boundaries under challenging circumstances.
When we force someone who didn't intend, or possibly even think about, acknowledging their poor treatment of us to do that with our kids/family members it almost always is going to stir things up further and possibly force side taking, ime.
Unintentionally, you may have pushed your daughter further into the middle of something she doesn't understand, doesn't know the context of, and probably doesn't want anything to do with by insisting your husband apologize to you in front of her and then trying to offer context for the reason this was such breach that you felt you needed to exit the home for a while.
May I gently say... stating your case by detailing the time of calls, etc., to your daughter has to be really uncomfortable for her and she may not see all of this in the same light you do. Further putting your connection with her at risk.
If you can find a way to pivot back to the issue of the agreement having been broken with your husband and maybe give this a cooling off period before you say or do anything further it may help you regroup.
I have long held the view that my adult children are wise enough to, over time, see both myself and their father pretty accurately having lived up close and personal with us both.
Do they see everything and know the long history of certain difficulties that may explain certain responses better or shed more favorable light on one or the other of us? No. And that has been, and will continue to be a conscious choice because in a long marriage with a disordered partner, there are patterns and experiences, agreements, etc., that are complex and highly personal.
Do they know enough to have some context and understanding of some of the struggles we have had and continue to experience. Yes. Finding that balance and giving space for our adult children to, over time, determine their own opinions and views based on our observable behaviors is what has worked best for us.
How are you doing today?
#95
Chosen Relationships / Re: Manipulation of self and d...
Last post by Rebel13 - April 30, 2024, 09:48:31 AMQuote from: notrightinthehead on April 29, 2024, 04:40:13 PMBut it's up to you to decide how much of this you are willing to tolerate and when you will remove yourself from the situation. Or whatever consequences you consider appropriate and healthy for you.
I so agree! And I know how hard it is not to get caught up in thoughts about what other people are saying and doing, and how much easier everything would be if they would only behave better!
Take care of yourself, chowder! You don't have to justify, argue, defend or explain (JADE). You can ask for what you want from others, decide what you will do if you don't get it, and then follow through. You can walk away from unproductive conversations. I wish you the best!
#96
Dealing with PD Siblings and other Family Members / Re: Low contact turned to no c...
Last post by moglow - April 30, 2024, 09:48:24 AMYou don't have to respond at all, WOBG. Their commentary doesn't require one, and any questions along that line are rhetorical at best. They know, they're just trying to get you to toe the family line. You don't have to do that either. You can carry on with your conversation with them as if it wasn't said. When they push it, well look at the time! Great talking to y'all, need to head out, we'll talk soon!
#97
Chosen Relationships / Re: I can't figure out if my w...
Last post by Rebel13 - April 30, 2024, 09:44:10 AMWelcome Venetir!
I love this! Thank you so much for the idea of being friends with CPTSD! I'm going to really think about the ways it has looked out for me.
I'm so sorry for the pain and distress you are going through. Bloomie's advice is phenomenal, as always.
I will just add, I think there is only one question you need to answer -- "Is this relationship acceptable to me?"**
From what you've said in your post, it sounds to me like you know in your heart it is not. It sounds like you have tried everything you can think of, but you can't make the relationship work by changing just yourself -- the only thing you truly can change.
I really feel for you, as my partner and I both struggle with CPTSD. She has sometimes demonstrated some of the same defensive behaviors you have mentioned, and I have sometimes acted out of frustration and not managing my own dysregulation in the way that I would like. (DBT has helped me a lot with that!) HOWEVER -- we both have worked hard, and our relationship HAS improved over time in ways that I can see, feel, and appreciate.
I'm so sorry you feel this way. But I also think this is a good awareness.
You deserve a partner who has brought unmitigated good into your life, alongside the normal difficulties and conflicts that are inevitable when two people try to share their lives intimately, and despite the extra challenges you both have from your histories of abuse.
Back to the title of your post, the sad reality is, it's not either/or. Someone can be a victim of abuse, and can work hard to overcome the damage, as you have. Or, a person can be a victim of abuse, and be unwilling (or unable) to do the hard work that's needed for them to heal. Then, they end up taking their trauma out on others. Ultimately you have to decide what you are willing to accept.
**This comes from the wonderful blogger ChumpLady whose work focuses on infidelity but IMO can be useful to people in all kinds of difficult relationships.
Quote from: Venetir on April 30, 2024, 01:39:55 AMI went to see a counselor every week for months and just pummeled my CPTSD into shape. It's part of me and it's never going away, but it's not in charge anymore. We're just buds now and we look out for each other.
I love this! Thank you so much for the idea of being friends with CPTSD! I'm going to really think about the ways it has looked out for me.
I'm so sorry for the pain and distress you are going through. Bloomie's advice is phenomenal, as always.
I will just add, I think there is only one question you need to answer -- "Is this relationship acceptable to me?"**
From what you've said in your post, it sounds to me like you know in your heart it is not. It sounds like you have tried everything you can think of, but you can't make the relationship work by changing just yourself -- the only thing you truly can change.
I really feel for you, as my partner and I both struggle with CPTSD. She has sometimes demonstrated some of the same defensive behaviors you have mentioned, and I have sometimes acted out of frustration and not managing my own dysregulation in the way that I would like. (DBT has helped me a lot with that!) HOWEVER -- we both have worked hard, and our relationship HAS improved over time in ways that I can see, feel, and appreciate.
Quote from: Venetir on April 30, 2024, 01:39:55 AMDespite loving her, if I could have a magic wish to forget all this and start over without meeting her, I'd take it.
I'm so sorry you feel this way. But I also think this is a good awareness.
You deserve a partner who has brought unmitigated good into your life, alongside the normal difficulties and conflicts that are inevitable when two people try to share their lives intimately, and despite the extra challenges you both have from your histories of abuse.
Back to the title of your post, the sad reality is, it's not either/or. Someone can be a victim of abuse, and can work hard to overcome the damage, as you have. Or, a person can be a victim of abuse, and be unwilling (or unable) to do the hard work that's needed for them to heal. Then, they end up taking their trauma out on others. Ultimately you have to decide what you are willing to accept.
**This comes from the wonderful blogger ChumpLady whose work focuses on infidelity but IMO can be useful to people in all kinds of difficult relationships.
#98
Dealing with PD Siblings and other Family Members / Re: Low contact turned to no c...
Last post by walking on broken glass - April 30, 2024, 09:14:26 AMThanks so much for sharing @clarityjane!
I will remember this every time I feel bad about not being in touch.
My dad's health has taken a dip the past few weeks and I was thinking that, if I was in touch with sis, she would use this to lure me in. As she has studied biomedicine, she also behaves as if she were a doctor and has all sorts of views about my dad's health and treatment, which drives me crazy.
My parents will definitely say that I should get in touch with her for the holiday approaching and I am not sure what response to give to that.
I will remember this every time I feel bad about not being in touch.
My dad's health has taken a dip the past few weeks and I was thinking that, if I was in touch with sis, she would use this to lure me in. As she has studied biomedicine, she also behaves as if she were a doctor and has all sorts of views about my dad's health and treatment, which drives me crazy.
My parents will definitely say that I should get in touch with her for the holiday approaching and I am not sure what response to give to that.
#99
Celebrating Ourselves / Re: Why We Are Focusing On Our...
Last post by bloomie - April 30, 2024, 08:09:24 AMWhat a great focus for the community!
This hit me hard, Starboard Song. A much needed reminder!
Spring and Summer tend to be times of gatherings and extended family/friend events. Some of which are decades long and layered with expectation. Then sprinkled with a few difficult to navigate (for me, anyway) people. I find myself so stressed out by the end of some of these things that I am physically done.
I have already decided to focus on taking good care of myself going into this season, but this redirecting of my energy to my own health and well being with common sense insights from the 51% Rule is helpful to me right now.
From the 51% Rule:
Instead of staring at the mountain, as described here, feeling immobilized or shifting my focus to another person who is going to do what they are going to do every single time... if I can get just little more than halfway to healthy ground it could make all of the difference.
I will be back after some time to fully think about what this would look like.
Quote from: Starboard Song on February 27, 2024, 02:00:58 PMWe talk all the time about mental health, but rarely about our own. To be honest, we can easily find ourselves dedicating all our time to some people who maybe deserve a good deal less of it.
This hit me hard, Starboard Song. A much needed reminder!
Spring and Summer tend to be times of gatherings and extended family/friend events. Some of which are decades long and layered with expectation. Then sprinkled with a few difficult to navigate (for me, anyway) people. I find myself so stressed out by the end of some of these things that I am physically done.
I have already decided to focus on taking good care of myself going into this season, but this redirecting of my energy to my own health and well being with common sense insights from the 51% Rule is helpful to me right now.
From the 51% Rule:
QuoteThe 51% Rule says that we need to consider our own needs just a little more than those of others in order to be able to help them effectively.
When we look at all the challenges associated with living with a person who suffers from a personality disorder, things can often seem frustrating and overwhelming. Sometimes, the mountain seems so high, all we can do is look at it. This tends to immobilize us. We become weaker and more frustrated. We become no help to the loved ones we care about or, just as importantly, to ourselves. Nothing gets done and nothing gets any better.
When we feel or perceive things in that way it's hard to make the decisions we need to make or to trust in the decisions we have already made.
There is a way that has worked for me in reducing the size of the mountain. Instead of looking at the relationship as a black and white issue (that either they have to get completely healthy or I have to gain complete control over them) I have found that all I need to do is get just a little more than halfway to be on healthy ground.
Instead of staring at the mountain, as described here, feeling immobilized or shifting my focus to another person who is going to do what they are going to do every single time... if I can get just little more than halfway to healthy ground it could make all of the difference.
I will be back after some time to fully think about what this would look like.
#100
Chosen Relationships / Re: I can't figure out if my w...
Last post by bloomie - April 30, 2024, 07:51:15 AMI wanted to pop in and offer an article from our toolbox that may resonate with you:
the 51% rule
Here is a bit from the article:
Since you mentioned you were struggling trusting yourself I thought this article may be helpful for you.
the 51% rule
Here is a bit from the article:
QuoteThe 51% Rule says that we need to consider our own needs just a little more than those of others in order to be able to help them effectively.
When we look at all the challenges associated with living with a person who suffers from a personality disorder, things can often seem frustrating and overwhelming. Sometimes, the mountain seems so high, all we can do is look at it. This tends to immobilize us. We become weaker and more frustrated. We become no help to the loved ones we care about or, just as importantly, to ourselves. Nothing gets done and nothing gets any better.
When we feel or perceive things in that way it's hard to make the decisions we need to make or to trust in the decisions we have already made.
There is a way that has worked for me in reducing the size of the mountain. Instead of looking at the relationship as a black and white issue (that either they have to get completely healthy or I have to gain complete control over them) I have found that all I need to do is get just a little more than halfway to be on healthy ground.
Since you mentioned you were struggling trusting yourself I thought this article may be helpful for you.