Drew big boundary needing support

[Leonor]

Hi all,

I'm so grateful for this space and thank you for reading and sharing your experiences.

I'm NC with my FOO, who disowned me when I refused to deny that I had been abused by family members. That was about 11-12 years ago.

For the past 17 years, I've been married to my dh. He has been with me through all my healing from my foo. He attended t. with me when I needed him. He learned about abuse and PTSD. He has always helped me when I've had flashbacks, or panic attacks, or medical reactions. We have beautiful children and a lovely life ... we were even planning about moving to his home country in Europe and starting a company together.

But his foo is dysfunctional too. His M is NBPD waif / OCD and his F is NBPD / hypochondriac. His sister is also NBPD / hermit. Even though they are clearly dysfunctional, I never really perceived them as "disturbed". I thought there was hope to have a relatively nice family, because even though they had problems, they weren't abusive, in the sense that I had come to understand as abusive. And when the drama came -- and I came to learn that it always came -- I did everything in my human power to help. I got involved. I counseled. I attended to. I waited upon. I mended fences.

Then I started to get tired. I got physically tired, and emotionally tired, and psychologically tired. As our little family grew, I got tired of taking care of babies alone while h. took care of his foo's latest emergency. I got tired of waiting on people who patted me on the head and then trampled all over me. I got tired of accepting tearful shallow apologies, tired of listening to tales of woe, tired of being dumped on while everyone else went about their crazy business.

Finally, two years ago, they got into a big fight at my dining room table over Christmas. MIL, SIL and FIL got up, left the table and marched out. FIL came back (because the argument started when they trashed their finances, and FIL wanted h. to help.) MIL and SIL have not spoken to me or my children in person since (MIL will show up on weekly Skype calls.) Even when FIL went to the hospital for a bypass, MIL and SIL did not engage with us. SIL only wrote her nephew a love-bomb note at the end of our visit, but added that she would not speak to dh. Nice.

So I put in more boundaries. I said I did not want SIL to have contact with me or my children. Ever. I said that FIL could have supervised visits with kids at a park or at my house when H. was present. And I said that MIL was not allowed to step foot in my house or have contact with me, but that I would allow her to visit with kids at a park, because they had grown really attached to her. I spent hours counselling my kids about depression and how it's nobody's fault and we love them and their feelings are o.k.

This year, it's holiday time. And I'm constantly feeling sick. I'm in a low-level anxiety attack all the time, because we're going back to h's country and nothing has changed. I'm the only person working on the company we're trying to start. And h. and kids are all wound up for what we're going to do when we get to visit the grandparents! At one point, I said to h., I'd rather not see your parents this year and h. said, that's o.k. and I said, but I don't want to spend Christmas alone and h. said, well? Like, well, that's what it means!

He said he cannot and will not change his relationship with his parents because they are ill and need him and he loves them and he feels guilty for not being there and they are not going to be around much longer. So I said, if that's the case, then I do not want to travel with you and the boys over the holidays. I don't want to walk into that tornado of disturbed psychological drama anymore.

Now h. is not talking to me. He feels hurt and resentful towards me. I have to go sign papers and get them notarized so that he and the kids can travel over the holidays without me. And he is grumbling about the company we were planning to start, because if I don't want to be in his country then there's no point of starting over. He's also insinuating that if we don't move, he's going to have to work more than ever because he'll need to get a promotion and I know he hates his job.

I have said this to him before, but I always have backed down because the thought of being without them over Christmas was just too painful. But now the idea of being there is just as painful. So I am saying No, I won't go, not for you, not for your parents, and not even for the boys, because they really want to go and I just can't put myself through the abuse anymore.

So this may be a turning point in my life. It may mean that I have to leave. I don't know. And I am sad and afraid and would love words of advice, experience or support!

[gettingstronger1]

So I am saying No, I won't go, not for you, not for your parents, and not even for the boys, because they really want to go and I just can't put myself through the abuse anymore.

Leonore, I am really sorry you are going through this with your in laws and your husband.  I understand that it is extremely painful that your husband wants to see his parents for Christmas and is willing to leave you at home alone.  I can understand why you set that boundary of not going to your in laws for Christmas.  There is an old quote that I have seen numerous times here on Out of the FOG:

"You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep to keep other people warm."

There really is a lot of truth to that quote.  You don't have to suffer in order to make others happy. It's just not an emotionally healthy thing to do.  You have every right to set a boundary, and your husband needs to respect that boundary.  Another thing to consider is that if your MIL, FIL, and SIL  are to abusive and toxic to you, then they are too toxic for your kids.  It may not be emotionally healthy for the kids to be witnessing dysfunctional behavior, because they learn that its okay to act that way because grandma and grandpa do.  Maybe the kids would be better off with a supervised visit with grandma and grandpa at a restaurant, park, or zoo near your home.  I understand the grandparents would have to travel a long way, but that is the natural consequence for inappropriate behavior.

Two things that I found to be helpful in dealing with my husband when he was in the fog about his mom was therapy and education.  The reason that I am bolding education is because in my experience, education was key to coming Out of the FOG and it was key to healing from and dealing with my dysfunctional family of origin. If you aren't aware and knowledgeable of the subtle manipulations that the PD person uses to abuse and stay in control, then it becomes very difficult to deal with them appropriately.  Basically I sent my husband tons of articles that I found on the internet on NPD, gaslighting, smear campaigns, cycle of abuse, denial, love bombing, trauma bonding etc.  I asked him to read them and then we discussed concrete examples of what his mom was doing to exhibit these behaviors many of which are covert and in the name of "good parenting" or being a "good grandma."  I also sent articles on why it is important to have good boundaries and how to go about setting good boundaries.  Once my husband started setting some boundaries with his mom, she showed her true colors to him and he started to come Out of the FOG. That was HUGE in helping him come Out of the FOG.  I also asked my husband to get into counseling.  It was an extremely painful year for us in what was other wise a great marriage.  Like you, I wasn't going to put up with abuse any more.  The education really seemed to help my husband and I.  He started to really see the pain his mom had caused me.  He also needed some help on learning empathy and unlearning emotionally unhealthy beliefs that he learned as a child.  As a result we are doing much better.  We aren't completely out of the woods, but we do have a therapy appointment tomorrow so the therapist can continue to help us.  Also I think this time we did manage to find a therapist who seems to understand personality disorders. I hope this helps.  Only you know what is right for you, but educating, setting firm boundaries with my husband, and a lot of conversation helped us. Best wishes to you.   

[all4peace]

Leonor,  I am so sorry for this very painful situation you are in. Is couple's counseling an option? Can you possibly find a therapist or guide who believes that the marriage relationship comes before in laws?

[Call Me Cordelia]

 

I'm so so sorry that your husband is prepared to ditch you in favor of the in-laws on Christmas.

Do you "have to" get the papers notarized for them to travel? I certainly wouldn't facilitate this betrayal in any way. And I don't think that's too strong a word. I don't like how all the blame is being thrown at you... You are ruining Christmas, your husband's work life, your family stability all because you won't take it from his parents and sister? DH's only chance at happiness lies in his parents' country? No. That's absurd. You are not putting DH in the middle, he is choosing to stay attached to people who have been bad to his wife. You are choosing to protect yourself and detach with very good reasons after many years of trying. You do not deserve blame. It's all on the in-laws, and DH for going along with them. I would definitely stand up for yourself on that score. Your husband's resentment toward you is most unfair and misplaced, even if you don't see the situation the same way. And if he insists on blaming you anyway, I agree with A4P on getting into marriage counseling with someone who believes in "leave and cleave."

You gave me some strong words a few weeks ago over claiming my place in DH's life. They are just as true for you.

I wish education and pointing out the dysfunction were enough. It hasn't been in our case. If we left our FOO for xyz reasons, and xyz also exists in the IL family, it stands to reason we would also leave. It's consistent, logical behavior. Alas FOG defies logic. He said it himself, he feels guilty and obligated. In FOGland feelings are facts.

You got to a place where being with the ILs is just as or more painful than being alone on the holidays. I wonder if our DHs likewise need to get to a place where catering to the PDs is just as painful as not doing so. That's what happened with my FOO. Having them around was finally too painful to be borne any longer.

Let's face it, we've been "nice" wives both of us. Reducing the potential pain for our husbands. You're going along with your boys having contact, allowing Skype calls to your home (I presume), working (alone?) on immigrating your FOC closer to the IL's. All things you could stop, with perfect justice imho. Would it be ugly and painful, yes. But you are already in pain. You want MIL in your life? Take Skype somewhere else. You will not have even MiLs voice in your home. Brainstorm some other way of improving work life in your current home or somewhere far far away, stop working on the plan of moving "home." You're going away for Christmas alone? Ok I'm going away to do this thing I will really enjoy all alone, not sit at home sad. A few ideas. Even if it doesn't "force" DH off the fence, you will be more consistent and confident in your boundaries and taking better care of YOU.

[Leonor]

Hello all,

I'm so grateful for you all, truly.

And it is helpful to hear all of your wisdom and insight.

You know, I was sitting in my office today, and it occurred to me that I actually did have the power to protect my kids.

Because the thought of them going without me makes me nauseous. It makes me nauseous to know they are lining to see a grandma who hasn't spoken to them in TWO YEARS. It makes me nauseous that they hope to hear from the Auntie who used my son's affection to promise him a Big Day Out and then insult his father. And it makes me nauseous that they are so looking forward to playing with a grandpa who has talked to them about his marriage troubles, his heart attacks, his daughter issues. And h cannot set boundaries with them, so all the discussions and arguments are in front of everyone else.

At first I actually started writing a list of what was not allowed (get in car with Grandpa, visit Grandma and Grandpa at their home, and so on). And then I realized that that was crazy. If I didn't trust them to behave decently not my husband to protect them, then I should not let them go at all!

H is now just moping about the house. He's also avoiding me. I think he's waiting for me to say, oh, okay, I'll go.

Now I'm in a place where I have to say no to the kids going and things are going to get a @#$&-lot worse.

Please keep the encouragement coming, fellow outofthefoggers. I feel like I am walking into the fight of my life and I'm afraid that when it's over my marriage will be, too.

[gettingstronger1]

You are doing the right thing by protecting your kids.  Obviously we are here to support you here on Out of the FOG, but make sure there is also someone in your everyday life to support you too.  Maybe a close friend or a therapist.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Grandma hasn't talked to them in two years?!? Psh, they're not missing anything. I think your kids are older than mine, but really it's not much of a loss for them. Kids like the idea of grandparents and a happy family time as much as the rest of us. But the reality you describe is not that. No matter the age, if they can be safe in reality that's better than any illusion of safety. We needed the illusion to survive in our dysfunctional FOOs, but our kids can be safe in reality with at least one parent. And the sooner the better for them.

My T recommended telling the truth, age appropriately. You can refer to incidents they witnessed which were inappropriate (your FIL's conversation, Auntie's insults) and that you are unwilling to have repeated. And you are pretty confident they would be repeated. It's a chance to undo some of the damage as well as establish what is and is not ok.

You're doubling down on your boundary and your truth instead of caving in. I think you're right it will test your DH's loyalties. I see that as positive. Stop making it easy to stay in denial.

I'm preaching to myself here as well, so please don't think of me as a hypocrite! This is really really hard and it's easy to say these words on the internet to someone else. It's much harder to figure out boundaries and live them in real life when we are still fighting through our own FOG. And losing our marriages is a huge huge fear. I'm so sorry you are there.

[p123]

So I am saying No, I won't go, not for you, not for your parents, and not even for the boys, because they really want to go and I just can't put myself through the abuse anymore.

Leonore, I am really sorry you are going through this with your in laws and your husband.  I understand that it is extremely painful that your husband wants to see his parents for Christmas and is willing to leave you at home alone.  I can understand why you set that boundary of not going to your in laws for Christmas.  There is an old quote that I have seen numerous times here on Out of the FOG:

"You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep to keep other people warm."

There really is a lot of truth to that quote.  You don't have to suffer in order to make others happy. It's just not an emotionally healthy thing to do.  You have every right to set a boundary, and your husband needs to respect that boundary.  Another thing to consider is that if your MIL, FIL, and SIL  are to abusive and toxic to you, then they are too toxic for your kids.  It may not be emotionally healthy for the kids to be witnessing dysfunctional behavior, because they learn that its okay to act that way because grandma and grandpa do.  Maybe the kids would be better off with a supervised visit with grandma and grandpa at a restaurant, park, or zoo near your home.  I understand the grandparents would have to travel a long way, but that is the natural consequence for inappropriate behavior.

Two things that I found to be helpful in dealing with my husband when he was in the fog about his mom was therapy and education.  The reason that I am bolding education is because in my experience, education was key to coming Out of the FOG and it was key to healing from and dealing with my dysfunctional family of origin. If you aren't aware and knowledgeable of the subtle manipulations that the PD person uses to abuse and stay in control, then it becomes very difficult to deal with them appropriately.  Basically I sent my husband tons of articles that I found on the internet on NPD, gaslighting, smear campaigns, cycle of abuse, denial, love bombing, trauma bonding etc.  I asked him to read them and then we discussed concrete examples of what his mom was doing to exhibit these behaviors many of which are covert and in the name of "good parenting" or being a "good grandma."  I also sent articles on why it is important to have good boundaries and how to go about setting good boundaries.  Once my husband started setting some boundaries with his mom, she showed her true colors to him and he started to come Out of the FOG. That was HUGE in helping him come Out of the FOG.  I also asked my husband to get into counseling.  It was an extremely painful year for us in what was other wise a great marriage.  Like you, I wasn't going to put up with abuse any more.  The education really seemed to help my husband and I.  He started to really see the pain his mom had caused me.  He also needed some help on learning empathy and unlearning emotionally unhealthy beliefs that he learned as a child.  As a result we are doing much better.  We aren't completely out of the woods, but we do have a therapy appointment tomorrow so the therapist can continue to help us.  Also I think this time we did manage to find a therapist who seems to understand personality disorders. I hope this helps.  Only you know what is right for you, but educating, setting firm boundaries with my husband, and a lot of conversation helped us. Best wishes to you.   

"You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep to keep other people warm."

I REALLY like that. Says a lot to me.

[p123]

OP its tough I know. I did this for years with my Dad - almost lost my kids and my wife.
My wife, to be fair, put up with a lot from him.

He pushed and pushed and, in the end, enough was enough. Its still hard. I see my Dad and I'm still stuck in the middle a bit. Yes I love him still - I've realised hes my Dad, but I cant expect the rest of my family to put up with him any more.

Not saying your husband is right here but its hard for him. OK expecting you to go somewhere to see them is probably way too much (my wife just had to grit her teeth for a few hours on xmas day).

Anyway, he sounds like a good guy - Im sure it'll all work out. He'll see in the end I expect (like I did) and minimise the times he sees his parents....

[appaloosa]

You are in a distressing situation, and I'm so sorry. I agree with other posters that sending your kids off to these toxic in laws is ill advised and sure to be disappointing (at best) to the kids.  It's upsetting that your husband is not putting you first, and believe me, I know exactly how upsetting it is because I spent 29 years in that unhappy position. If I were you, I would stick to my boundaries and NOT go to your ILs under any circumstances. I would also NOT move to your DH's home country where you are going to be in unfamiliar surroundings and also where, I am afraid, your DH would become even more devoted to his 'poor old parents', leaving you to fend for yourself. I just don't see any way that could turn out well.
     As for the kids--plan something fun for Cmas! Take them to Disneyland, or if that's not in your budget, take them somewhere more affordable. Camping? An all inclusive indoor hotel/ waterpark (if you are in a cold climate)? Road trip? I'm sure if you google around online and ask the kids to help you will find something. I spend almost every holiday alone because my grown and almost grown kids want to spend holidays with their FOC or with their 'poor, depressed dad (my ex)--"we know you're fine by yourself, Mom!"  And I am! I see the kids at other times, and on the actual holidays (which really, is just a day--we are the ones who attach all the emotional baggage to it) I am having a blast--usually traveling, or treating myself to dinner out, or sometimes just staying home with a good book and some wine and cheese. I wish you well in navigating these difficult waters. Be true to yourself and put your well-being first. Trust your instincts.

[bloomie]

Leonor - just reading through this and wondering how things are going?

A few quick things came to mind as I read this... you are the mother and wife. You are setting healthy boundaries and holding your position in your own family and life. You are protecting you children from unreliable people. That is priority one!

Another thought from personal experience - your family time with your children in your home over the holidays is finite. And it rightly belongs to your FOC first. They are growing up and their lives will take them out into the world into relationships and experiences of their own. This is precious time and you do not have to give it over to people who acted terribly at your holiday table, while experiencing the privilege of your hospitality, and then walked away from you and your children.

Your H is pouting and giving you the ST? Not acceptable behavior from a grown man toward his wife and the mother of his children. You do not have to give in to manipulations like this.

Hold your ground!

Strength to you in this time of testing and struggle!

[Leonor]

Hi all,

Thank you for your kind words and support! Things have been shifting and I am not necessarily confident, but curious, as to how things will unfold.

First, I spent a few days in a mid-level anxiety attack, which was excruciating. Then I got Toxic Inlaws and Emotional Blackmail and read them cover to cover. It was very validating for me, and also enlightening to realize that both sets of our parents are abusive in the same way, but with different methods. My mother is a tantalizer/rejector, when his parents are sufferers/chaos manufacturers. At times I read the case studies and thought to myself, "Well, if you think *that's* bad, ..."

So then I sat down and wrote a loooong letter to h. and told him what I had experienced and how I felt. I then stated that I was stepping in in order to protect our relationship, and that I was going to fight for the health of our family. I made him a point by point list of events rather than generalizations about his parents' behavior. And then I ended it with a list of non-negotiable behavior changes on his part towards his parents, with the consequences that unless he agreed, neither I nor our kids would travel for this holiday and then we would discuss how we wanted, and if we wanted, to move forward in our relationship. Then I went into full anxiety attack.

Then h and I backed off a bit. We didn't talk, but we did touch hands or lean on each other from time to time. We'd send occasional texts at work. I decided to let him have his space to process and it was clear that he was working on it without pulling away from me and I wanted to give him space without withdrawing from him in a panic.

A day or so later he met me at the door, gave me a big hug, and said he thought everything I said was reasonable, that he was not going to argue or justify anything, and he was going to agree to everything I had required as non-negotiable. He even said he didn't really want to go back this year because things had been so lousy. He said he knew that his parents would never change, do he would have to be the one to change, and told me it was going to be hard and he would like me to help him notice old patterns.

Then we really sat down and thought about whether or not we should go this year. And I said yes, because it's my home too, and I am tired of the ils' running us all over the map. The company we plan to start is my idea and my dream, and I don't want to settle for less because two little old people are acting obnoxious. And I set very strong boundaries around visits with me present, because I feel like it's my turn to step up instead of fuming at home or sulking about.

When I look back, I can see that we were doing really well for a while with visits and boundaries, but got thrown off course by The Crazy. It was a doozy, and thick FOG rolled in, and it was bad. But I also feel like we're righting ship again, and while it will never be easy and I am sure there will be battles ahead, it is possible.

I feel best, I think, about asking not just for the bare minimum of what I would need to survive, but for what I really wanted. And then I made it, not hopefully, but as a requirement, and I was ready to make serious changes, but with respect, if I received "no" as an answer.

So I will keep you posted, because I am sure that there will be updates ahead!

[all4peace]

I am in awe of your strength! I love how you share that you asked for the best, not just barely scraping by. I am thankful for what you've shared and plan to borrow from that for our own holiday season. Well done, you!